Jeddah Mali Transcript

Jeddah Mali Interview

Summary:

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer and my guest this week is Jeddah Mali. I have quite a lot of biographical material here about Jeddah that I could read, but we’ll let her tell her own story. I’ll just read a fairly short thing. Jeddah is the Executive Director and Founder of Global Paradigm LTD, which delivers training programs for individuals and organizations seeking a completely new approach to the age-old dilemma of how to make life, business, and society work effectively and harmoniously. Jeddah’s unique approach identifies and maps the cohesive design that underlies every system, from an individual person to a solar system. It reveals the hidden patterns within every aspect of life that are responsible for how things turn out. Jeddah provides an in-depth examination into the nature and function of this design and the mechanics that make it work. Our understanding and use of these mechanics determine the extent to which we can produce consistent and reliable results. Jeddah is sought after for her precise understanding of human beings, the contribution each person makes individually and collectively, and the impact this has on the world in which we live. Her work examines the link between our design as human beings and our hardwired predisposition towards peace, collaboration, and contentment. And then Jeddah is on the boards and members of all sorts of interesting international organizations. I won’t bother to read all those right now, but if you’ve been listening to these interviews you realize that in my opinion spirituality is not just some fulfilling subjective thing that has no relevance to the external world, in fact it’s really the fuel which can and must change the external world if the external world that we live in, or we in it, are to survive. And so my ears always perk up when I hear of someone who is deeply spiritual but is applying that in a practical way to effect change in our world. And I’d heard your name Jeddah, but I really tuned into you for the first time when I listened to your Conscious TV interview with Renate McNay, I often listen to those, and I feel like Ian and Renata are friends of mine even though I’ve never met them. But I really sort of enjoyed your story and the depth of experience that you have had since childhood, and even though it might be somewhat repetitive and people can listen to that interview to get details that we might not cover here, perhaps we could start with that and then we’ll segue eventually into what you actually teach.

Jeddah: Sure. Where would you like me to start? 1967?

Rick: Sure, the summer of love.

Jeddah: Exactly. I always think it was an auspicious time to arrive anyway.

Rick: Was that when you were born, 1967?

Jeddah: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Rick: Oh, okay, that’s when I first took LSD and had my eyes kind of opened up.

Jeddah: Well, that’s when my eyes first opened up too, because I was born in May 1967, so that’s when I arrived. And you know, at the time I didn’t know much else about my life other than that’s what I’d been allotted. And I guess, you know, it’s hard, you know, looking back and thinking, well, was it always this way or is it because it’s this way now, I assume it was that way then. But I did always feel slightly different. Different to what? I don’t know, to the people around me. I had a different inner life to my outer life. But on the surface of it, I mean, that was known to me, that was all apparent to me, but to anybody who was in my world, such as my mother, my father, my sister, my friends at school, you know, if they were asked to remember me, they would just say she was just an ordinary kid, you know, just growing up the same as the rest of us. So it looked very normal on the surface. All of the strange happenings happened to me specifically and personally on an internal basis in terms of my perception, in terms of the way I processed information. You know, as I said with Renate, my relationship with time was often very different. I had strange experiences with relating to the physical body, relating to energy, and all of that kind of stuff, but it didn’t really happen on a consistent basis. And apart from a couple of times it didn’t really happen at my will, it happened more sort of just spontaneously.

Rick: Okay, and this didn’t happen in ’67 obviously, because you’d just been born.

Jeddah: I’d just been born.

Rick: So, maybe you were 5 or 6 years old or something.

Jeddah: Yeah, exactly. It started around 4, 5, 6 years old, and then I think there was a little hiatus during teenage years where I was always a very happy kid.

Rick: And before you go on, can we have a couple of specifics? Like, you know, you said your relationship to time, your strange energy experiences and all, what were you actually experiencing as a young child?

Jeddah: I would often find myself in a time reality that didn’t match the time reality of those around me. So, I was operating on a much quicker time than those around me. So, when this happened when I was little, of course I found this very frightening and I tried to explain it to those around me, but you can imagine what a 6-year-old sounds like saying, “Everything is going fast. I can’t walk properly because my legs are in one time reality and my internal state is in another time reality.” So, even my physical body and my time reality didn’t always match up.

Rick: What does that mean exactly? Does it mean like you’re walking down the street and it’s as if everything is zooming really fast past you or something? And you’re in slow motion or vice versa?

Jeddah: It felt as if my internal state was in a much, much faster time reality than everything else including my physical body. So, my physical body would feel like it was going at a snail’s pace and I could see my legs moving and I knew that they were moving as legs are supposed to move when they walk, but the way I was processing it was way, way, way faster. And so there was a disconnect and it made me feel … I had no way of rationally processing these experiences, it just made me feel a little afraid, a little odd, and when I tried to convey them to those around me I could see that it just caused alarm and got me trotted off down the doctor’s for a brain review.

Rick: You know what it sounds like to me? It sounds like you were sort of, you had one foot in another dimension as if.

Jeddah: I think that’s what was happening, yeah.

Rick: And time functions differently in other dimensions, you know?

Jeddah: Exactly.

Rick: And so you hadn’t quite integrated the several dimensions in which you were living.

Jeddah: Yes, yes, I think that’s exactly what was happening. But of course I had no language for that, I had no reference point for that at the time. I also had some very fun, interesting experiences with experimenting with my energy and my energy body and my size relationship to objects around me. And I would experiment with that very freely and it was a kind of playful thing. But again, you know, it’s funny because I never said, it never occurred to me to say to a friend, “Oh, can you do that too?” or “Let’s try this.” It was just stuff that I would do by myself when I was in my room and just do quietly, and I never shared that with anyone.

Rick: So like for instance regarding size, I mean there are actually cities in the Yoga Sutras of Patanjali called, I think it’s Anima and Mahima or something, becoming tiny and huge. And I don’t know if the yogi’s actual body becomes tiny and huge, but perhaps some kind of subtle body or something does.

Jeddah: Yes, exactly.

Rick: So you might find yourself like bigger than your house or something like that, right?

Jeddah: Yes, yes. Yeah, so I could play with that and that I could do at will. I would play with that sense of expanding or contracting or being able to move myself across a room. And again, I’m almost certain my physical body didn’t move, but I was able to be able to get my eyes right up against the far wall and then come back again, was able to play with that sense of distance as well. So I was able to move at will around the room and within my physical form. But you know it’s interesting how natural that feels to a child. It never occurred to me to double check with anyone else whether they had it too, and it never occurred to me not to do it. And I don’t even know how it occurred to me to do it. It just one day it started to happen and I just went, “Oh, this is fun, I’ll just play with it.”

Rick: I remember when I was a kid I had an argument with my mother that I was sure that when I was younger I had been able to fly. I said, “Mom, I used to fly around the house, you know, I’d fly up and down stairs.” And she said, “No, you didn’t. You must have been dreaming or something.”

Jeddah: Yeah, well I don’t remember ever flying, although I actually still to this day have so many flying dreams which are very cool, but I don’t remember flying. But I do remember being able to have this very elastic sense of presence and movement. And then it was a playful thing, it was a malleable thing. The one thing that was clear to me which was an eye-opener was that it followed my direction so that when I intended something it happened, and it happened immediately without any question. And so I got to see the power of intention through that and its effect on energy. And I …

Rick: You mean this subtle stuff happened by intention of …

Jeddah: Exactly. Yeah, yeah. I mean it just started to happen of its own accord, but then the direction of movement and whatever I asked to happen would happen. So it responded very readily.

Rick: And how do you understand that now from an adult perspective?

Jeddah: I understand it from the point of view that our thoughts are electrical impulses which imprint energy, and the energy then is duty-bound to follow suit.

Rick: Do you think this is much more common among children than we realize?

Jeddah: I don’t know. I mean I have children and they’ve sometimes related unusual things to me, but I don’t know, maybe it happens to them and they don’t share it with me. I don’t know, but I didn’t get the sense that anyone else in my childhood was experiencing it, but then I could be wrong.

Rick: Yeah, okay. Well, what I’ve seen in interviewing a lot of people is that people who blossom spiritually later in life very often have unusual childhoods. They’ve got a lot going on when they were kids, you know, and sometimes they completely forget it during their teenage years and sometimes not so much, but there’s usually some … they come into this life already popping, you know?

Jeddah: I think I was a bit of a late bloomer in that sense. It’s interesting that you say that during their teenage years they forget it because that’s what happened to me.

Rick: We all get a little crazy in our teenage years.

Jeddah: Yeah, well my family life wasn’t exactly a bowl of cherries, and so I had a lot of material that I was dealing with and sad about and having to process, and that takes a lot of your focus and your energy. So, I didn’t have that sort of carefree, Pollyanna existence.

Rick: No, no, me neither. Okay, so you had this childhood in which lots of interesting stuff was going on, and I guess, did you kind of tell people about it and then you got strange reactions and so you kind of learned to keep your mouth shut?

Jeddah: The only person I shared anything with was my mother, and she’s probably at the opposite end of the spectrum of being able to process that information. And so of course she followed what avenues she thought were correct and took me to the doctor to get checked out. And the doctor said she probably had a temperature and when she gets a temperature she becomes delusional. So that was the explanation that was given to her and she didn’t think any more of that. But I could see that it was completely incomprehensible to her and that I did take note of. There is no point in trying to explain it to her because she just doesn’t get it. And she would be sort of borderline concerned/irritated. It’s not a great framework to give her more information.

Rick: Yeah. Okay, so then you got into your teenage years and anything unusual there?

Jeddah: No, I don’t think so. I think at that stage though I started to realize that I had, I didn’t even know how to put it, that my inner life and my outer life were two separate realms. And you know I’m going to be 47 next week and I’m still in the process of trying to match them up, make them fit. But that’s when I first became aware of the fact that my inner life, all the desires and imagination I had, wasn’t necessarily getting translated around me. And so I suppose there was a little bit of an existential malaise or there was a disconnect that I noticed that caused me to want to know more. So that’s really when the source of all my questioning started.

Rick: That raises an interesting question. I think whether people have a spiritual orientation or a mundane one, they all kind of realize that their inner and outer lives, there’s a disconnect somewhat. I mean the inner life is so much more malleable than the outer life. On a mundane level it’s easy to imagine winning a million dollars or earning a million dollars, but it’s a lot harder to make that happen in the material realm. So I think it’s probably a universal phenomenon.

Jeddah: I would say so. And you know I speak to a lot of people now who have never had that inner life acknowledged or met and they find tremendous comfort and relief in that when it finally comes around or they finally meet someone who can understand that and speak to them on that level. And I didn’t have anyone. I had nobody. I made my own search. I took myself off at 17 to the local church and harangued the vicar until he agreed to baptize me. You know at 17 I could stick my own head in the font, you know. And I cobbled together my own godparents, you know. And my parents were slightly bemused and bewildered by this. And I didn’t stay with Christianity very long, But it just showed you that I was looking for something, I was looking for some kind of answers to the intangible and wasn’t finding it in my school life, my home life. So I looked for it elsewhere.

Rick: So what did you move on to after Christianity?

Jeddah: Well, when I was 21, I think, 20, 21, I was pretty young, I went to Asia, which I thought was going to be a year-long trip. And very quickly found myself staying in monasteries and so very quickly found Buddhism. Actually, no, I went first to India. And when I was in India, I studied, you know, Hindu philosophy and I was already a yoga practitioner. So I did a lot of advanced yoga and then moved on to Buddhism and sort of felt that I had found my second home really within Buddhism.

Rick: Is that where you picked up the name Jeddah Mali?

Jeddah: No, actually, Jeddah Mali was given to me by my parents.

Rick: Oh, okay. It sounds like one of these spiritual names, you know.

Jeddah: I know, funnily enough, because both my parents are atheists. Actually, the story my mom tells, my dad’s passed away so he can’t even corroborate it, but my mom says that she was trying to call me Jennifer and my dad didn’t like it. And so she suggested Jenna and he heard Jeddah and that’s how I got my name. But how they came up with that spelling, I don’t know, because it’s the same spelling as the capital of Saudi Arabia. But when I went to Israel, they said, you know, a Jeddah is a strong spiritual woman. So I thought, way to go, dad, you’re right on the money.

Rick: Sounds a little bit like Jedi too, you know.

Jeddah: I know, I’m proud of that.

Rick:Yeah. So what were some of your experiences and realizations over in India studying with Buddhists?

Jeddah: Well, it started with the Hindu philosophy and doing a lot of yoga and meditating twice a day and staying in ashrams. And then I very quickly found that with a little bit of discipline and structure and guidance, my inner life just opened up, you know, just literally opened up like a box and became very accessible to me very quickly. And I also knew from the guidance that was being given to other students in the class that my experiences were surpassing that and were sort of in another realm, another league.

Rick: Can you give us some specifics?

Jeddah: I could travel at will into disembodied states.

Rick: Like astral traveling?

Jeddah: No, I didn’t go anywhere else, but just being able to leave the body behind and enter into, you know, a sense of vastness, into instant samadhi. I could perceive, see and hear non-incarnate entities and had, you know, crystal clear vision of them and was able to hear their guidance. I was able to enter into very, very deep and beautiful states of light and bliss. And the teachers didn’t quite know what to do with me and that was the same with Buddhism too. They were a bit like, “Oh, well, you know, that’s not quite supposed to happen just yet.” So I wasn’t quite sure how I did it. And the funny thing was, you know, to this day I’m still able to do that, but funnily enough it hasn’t shortened, well, who’s to say, you know, because I’ve only got the life I’ve got, but it hasn’t taken away the lessons of having to integrate that into the physical life and make that accessible in my daily life. And so that’s why that’s such a specific part of my teachings now being able to integrate it, because it’s one thing to be able to access it, you know, we all want to be able to just sort of jump on this magic carpet, click our fingers and be in some other state, but really there’s no point to that unless you can utilize the wisdom and the energy that you’re accessing and make it available through your physical body here on earth, which is the whole purpose of evolution.

Rick: Yeah, that’s a very common theme actually and many people I talk to, both people I interview and other people I talk to, is, you know, it’s one thing to have these marvelous experiences, it’s another thing to live it in daily life and to have some kind of integration or stability of it amidst the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.

Jeddah: Yeah, well I think I’ve got through my life so far just some kind of like massive fluke because it hasn’t all been a process of steady conscious intent, so I relate to the slings and arrows.

Rick: But you know, I bet you experience something which we might call “supportive nature,” I bet you experience that to a high degree, which would be, you know how you mentioned these disincarnate beings that you would see and communicate with, I don’t know whether they would be involved in this, but don’t you feel that as a result of this sort of vertical dimension of your life, things kind of work out on the horizontal dimension in what might seem to be almost miraculous ways sometimes, it’s sort of like the gods are on your side, so to speak, you know?

Jeddah: Yeah, well I have been really, really blessed with unusual circumstances and coincidences and all the things that you mentioned and because it’s happened pretty consistently since I was a very young adult, I’ve become used to that in a way and you know sometimes I stop and think, “My goodness, if I actually shared my experiences,” I sort of kept that privacy around what I experience throughout my whole life. I don’t even share it with those I work with, but sometimes I think, “My goodness, it would be quite a read if I were to share some of the strange things that had happened and the wonderful assistance I’ve had all along.” And I think it’s also because I didn’t have, you know, until I went to Asia, and yes I had teachers and I was immersed in the philosophy of it, but that’s not the same as feeling that I belonged there. So because I never had a sort of family or community where I really felt I belonged, it felt like home to me, the Masters that looked after me became like my family and became my guidance.

Rick: Yeah, just one more little bit on this theme. There’s a song called “Born Under a Bad Sign,” I think Cream performed it, and one line is, you know, “If it wasn’t for bad luck, I wouldn’t have no luck at all.” And you know, but I don’t believe in luck. You know, there’s some people who, you know, they do seem to have a cloud over their heads and it’s always raining, and other people seem to live a charmed life and everything goes really well, and it might be interesting maybe later in the conversation to investigate that phenomenon. And you know, there’s a chapter in one of your recordings called “Unseen Helpers,” it might be interesting to analyze or discuss why it is that some people seem to get a great deal of support and aid in fulfillment of their desires, and other people seem to be thwarted at every turn. Let’s come back to that, because I want to keep talking about your story. So, who are some of these, I don’t suppose any of these teachers you studied with would be anyone listening would have heard of, or yes, were they?

Jeddah: Absolutely, they are.

Rick: Oh, okay, like whom?

Jeddah: Well, um …

Rick: Dalai Lama, didn’t you spend some time with him?

Jeddah: I did spend some time with the Dalai Lama, yes, I took my Bodhisattva vow with the Dalai Lama, very rashly I might add, because he gave us about five opportunities. He said, you know, this is a sort of karmically binding contract which is going to apply to every single life from here on in. And of course, you know, you’re young and you’re very idealistic and you say, “Yes, of course I will do that, of course I will devote the rest of my existence.” And then …

Rick: Not only this life, but you’ve just taken a vow to just come back again and again to help as much as you can.

Jeddah: Again and again, until the job is done. And he said, you know, about five times, you know, this is really a binding thing, you can’t get out of it, and if you try to, you know, it will attract unhelpful forces in your life. So, you know, best not take it at all than, you know, take it rashly. And I was quite a willful little thing in those days and I think I just sort of plowed ahead and said, “No, I’m going to do this.” So I of course remember that, you know, better get good with human life and physical life because I’m going to see a lot of it.

Rick: And so how long were you over there?

Jeddah: I ended up spending about 10 years in all in Asia. You know, I was coming and going, but there was about 10 years of my life where I was, you know, spending a lot of time there and studying and, you know, doing a lot of yoga.

Rick: Early 20s through early 30s.

Jeddah: Yeah, exactly, exactly right. Yeah.

Rick: And, you know, give us some impression of it. I mean, deep Samadhis and wonderful experiences and seeing angels and so on, and you’re having all these experiences. Anything else noteworthy, although those things are obviously pretty profound?

Jeddah: I learned that no one specific philosophy or discipline was going to work for me and all the time that I was learning the mantras and following the steps and trying to be, you know, a good Buddhist, I took my vows. I sort of was trudging along that path. It felt like it wasn’t going to meet me on the level that I wanted to meet existence. And so within me I felt very strongly that I wanted, you know, my internal clarion call was I don’t want to meet any intermediaries, I want to just deal directly with God.

Rick: Was there in the Buddhist teaching a lot of emphasis on intermediaries, both human and somehow, you know?

Jeddah: Not so much in there, but you know, with everything, with the Hindu philosophy, you know, with Buddhism also, there’s not a lot of emphasis, but there is a lot of emphasis on ritual and protocol and vows and all of this kind of stuff. And I just felt that I would be doing that for, you know, Buddha says it takes six countless great eons to get enlightened, which to me seemed like an awful long time, especially if I was going to be coming back in human form all that time. So it just felt too cluttered. The path felt too cluttered and it wasn’t clean enough and direct enough. So that’s when I started to move away from that and look for something much more direct, much cleaner, much more accessible and have a direct relationship to existence without having to chant a mantra. I wanted my consciousness to perceive, in those days, what I called God directly, now I call it existence or awareness.

Rick: So what did you find that was more direct?

Jeddah: It was around that time, my early 30s, that I started to, based on some of the experiences I’d had earlier and in childhood, I started to realize that my consciousness was the tool which allowed me to interact, it was a sort of faculty woven into all of us that allowed me to interact directly with the energy of existence and that the energy of existence was not too big and grand to meet anyone on that level, that you could have direct access, direct experience. And then that was, you know, there were a few sort of properties of that experience which I came to know as expansion, light, and harmony, you know, the three sort of basic properties of existence. And that consciousness was required in order to step into that, in order to turn that from a living fact into a living experience, you needed to let consciousness drink it in or perceive it directly. So that’s what started to arise within me, that knowingness, and that I passed on to those I was teaching and working with.

Rick: So this is something you pretty much discovered on your own. There wasn’t any teacher who showed you this or taught you this.

Jeddah: There was nothing. Obviously I was still receiving guidance from all the Unseen Helpers and I can attest that they’re very patient.

Rick: They’ve got all the time in the world.

Jeddah: Exactly, and I’ve used up quite a lot of it. So I just spent the last, you know, 15 years really honing that and trying to describe it and simplify it too because of my experience with Christianity and Hinduism and Buddhism, it just seemed so unnecessarily busy. The landscape was so busy and so complicated and didn’t really seem stacked in favor of success. And the people going through that were either, had already assumed that they were sinners and were going to be forever overlooked by existence, or some of them assumed that it’s a really, really, really long trudge and you have to be really earnest and pious and didn’t see much fun in that. Or the joy of life, the beauty of life didn’t seem to be spoken about or represented. You know, it got this tiny little mention in the Indian esoteric tradition, but apart from that it didn’t get much of a mention. So I felt that I wanted to tell other people about it. I wanted to put it into a language that was an everyday language, so it wasn’t in Sanskrit, it wasn’t in Pali Canon, it was in everyday English in this case, and that people could understand it and relate to it, but more importantly experience it for themselves. So they didn’t need to rely on a whole host of gurus and teachers, even though that assistance is given.

Rick: I sort of have the feeling, it’s just my own personal theory, that the reason for a lot of the falderal and the fanciness and the ceremonies and the rituals and all the stuff that gets layered on in all these traditions is that people are lacking the direct, simple experience. They don’t have access to it and you’ve got to keep them entertained. And even the teachers, the priests, the gurus in some cases perhaps don’t have as clear an experience of that essential reality as they might, and so they buy right into it also and are happy to oblige and engage in all this fancy red shoes and pointy hats and all the other stuff that happens in religion.

Jeddah: Yeah, yeah. Well I think certainly my experience of Christianity and Hinduism was like that, you know, that you’ve been studying yoga with a teacher for three, four months and you know, feeling very reverent and then you find out he’s sleeping with one of his students, you know, which is so often the case with these Indian teachers. They’re easily distracted. And I mean of course that isn’t the rule, it’s the exception to the rule.

Rick:I don’t know, I think it’s the other way around.

Jeddah:Yeah, you do come across it quite often. I was spiritual, with the spiritual Christian movement, they’re very well-meaning but I sometimes questioned how deeply they were experiencing things for themselves. Whereas with Buddhism I had a lot more respect for the teachers there because they did seem to have, you know, practice seemed to feature largely and I did meet some incredible teachers. Ajahn Buddhadasa was the head of the Theravada movement, sort of the equivalent of the Dalai Lama, and the Dalai Lama himself and many other, Lama Zopa Rinpoche, many wonderful reincarnated Lamas. But still it was too laden with rules and regulations and conditions really and I don’t feel that existence actually places those conditions on us. You know, they as you say have built up over the years in order to gently guide the masses who I think in the beginning, as it was explained to me, I don’t know if it’s the case, it was done that way because people didn’t have the conscious ability to grasp the intangible directly and so they had to do it through the intermediary of story and myth and legend and ritual. So those sort of people got it almost accidentally, but for me that just wasn’t going to work.

Rick: No, and you know, to each his own. I don’t think it would be fair of us to dismiss all that.

Jeddah: No, right.

Rick: You know, like for instance in the Indian tradition you have the Puranas and the Ithihasas, you have all these huge books of stories and you know, millions and millions of people derive a lot of inspiration and upliftment from that. And for them something as direct as what you’re alluding to would probably seem ungraspable and abstract and they would just not be able to go there at that particular stage of their development.

Jeddah: In many cases it’s also seen as audacious.

Rick: Like who are you to think you can …

Jeddah: Exactly, yeah. And so I think that was encouraged by certain teachers throughout the centuries because they didn’t want to put themselves out of a job. But particularly I see this in the Catholic Church.

Rick: Yeah, you need the intermediary.

Jeddah: You need an intermediary that’s been so-called designated by God and that you’re not allowed to have your own thoughts and ideas about God. So that I find doesn’t match up with any experience of existence that I’ve ever had.

Rick: Yeah, well I would definitely say that you’re beyond the intermediary stage, although perhaps there might still be some intermediaries who would serve as a catalyst for you and be able to fill in a few missing pieces, but you’re kind of on your own horse there. Now if we were to go back and sit in the presence of Jesus or Buddha or something, we would I’m sure find there wasn’t a lot of frills and ceremony, it was pretty plain vanilla, straightforward teaching. And I think we would also find, at least in the case of Buddha, from what I’ve heard, that a lot of people were actually getting enlightened in his presence, attaining nirvana or whatever we want to call it. So obviously that doesn’t seem to happen as much in these institutionalized settings as it used to, or did you experience otherwise?

Jeddah: I didn’t experience otherwise, but I have had direct experiences with both Jesus and Buddha, so I can attest to the fact that their presence is quickening to one’s energy field, so that their light and their presence has a quickening effect on your energy field, so that they can integrate levels of light and understanding that we can reach on our own but might take a little longer to reach. However, if it were just their presence then everyone who’d been in the presence of Jesus or Buddha or the other great masters would have walked away with that intact, but they didn’t because the one thing they can’t do is override your free will, and it’s your free will that governs where you place your consciousness.

Rick: Yeah, and you have to have a certain receptivity.

Jeddah: Exactly, yeah.

Rick: You know, pearls before swine and all that. Yeah, okay, so you just dropped a bomb, you said you’ve been in the presence of Jesus and Buddha or something along that nature, you’ve got to elaborate on that.

Jeddah: Well, I don’t know if it’s fortune or design, or fortunate design, but I’ve always been able to access and speak with pretty much anybody who’s ever existed, and obviously those that I’m drawn to are beings such as Jesus and Buddha. I also have spent a lot of time with Mother Mary, and when you asked me are any of the teachers that I’ve worked with, are they known to other people, and I said, “Oh yes,” because they all are pretty much known. And even though personally Christianity doesn’t float my boat at all, my lineage, my soul lineage, is very much around what is historically known as Christian characters. So St. John the Beloved, Peter the Rock, Jesus, Mary, Mary Magdalene, and basically all of the disciples.

Rick: I don’t think Christianity would float Jesus’s boat these days either. In fact, I read an article recently saying if Jesus were to come back now, would we actually recognize him? Or if he were to come to your church, would he be thrown out? They examined points like that and the conclusion was probably, “Yeah, he would be thrown out.” So where do these beings reside and what do they do wherever they reside? Are they just floating on clouds? How do they spend their time, so to speak, if that’s not a dumb question?

Jeddah: Well it doesn’t quite work like that. It’s hard to put it into language, but if you imagine, obviously you know and your listeners probably are aware that physical earth reality is one particular vibration, one particular dimension. There are two below this which the Christian Church have historically called the hell realms. There are several beyond this point too, so in quicker states of vibration than our earth plane. And so as they leave the earth plane they ascend, hence the term ascended master, into realms beyond the earth and they reside in that form in those realms. And so characters like Jesus and Buddha are able to traverse all of the realms simultaneously. You know their wisdom is encapsulated and even though they don’t, they can take on that form, particularly with Jesus, seeing him in his Jesus form. But Jesus is a bit of an anomaly though because he was Christed and so his soul, his path, his story is another whole interview session. The esoteric side of what happened during his life and the legacy that he left in other dimensions and in this dimension is, I think, you know, is quite complex and beyond the average person, including myself. So Buddha, Jesus, all these great masters, they do still, they can still present themselves to you in that form. But I don’t necessarily need them to show up in a sort of a human defined form for me to be able to access them. So I access their conscious beingness rather than their form and that is available and much more easy than people think, available to everybody.

Rick: So are they, if you don’t mind my pursuing this because it really arouses my curiosity, are they primarily occupied with human well-being and concerns? I mean, there are millions of Christians, millions of Buddhists in the world, all sort of praying to Jesus, praying to Buddha or appealing to him in some way. Are they sitting on some level where they are actually reciprocating or interacting or acknowledging those prayers or those entreaties and helping to facilitate the growth or the enlightenment of the individuals who turn their attention to them?

Jeddah: They can, but you said are they primarily involved with human evolution. I would say they are solely involved with the conscious evolution of existence.

Rick: As a whole.

Jeddah: Yeah, as a whole. And there are certain masters such as the Brotherhood of Light which are overseeing the evolution of consciousness of the planet. But it’s funny, you know, you pray to Jesus, you get a response, you pray to Buddha, you get a response, you do, but actually they look after each other’s people too. You know, Buddha doesn’t just take care of Buddhists and Jesus doesn’t just take care of Christians. There’s no distinction in those realms as such at all. You’re not read or assessed or defined by your languaging or even your faith. You are read and assessed and assisted according to the quality and the volume of the light in your field. So it’s an absolute level playing field. All beings are seen and assessed the same way.

Rick: Yeah, I mean you might be a bushman in Africa with a completely different esoteric worldview than any Christian or Buddhist and yet those very entities we’ve just been discussing might be helping you in some way.

Jeddah: Yeah, exactly, exactly. But you know, one part of your question was, are they giving assistance? Yes they are giving assistance, but they don’t target it only to their people, but they are absolutely 100% involved. Their whole life is given over into this, you know. I mean we are all in service. I mean there’s no other way to spend your existence, there’s no other way to spend your time, there’s nothing to do other than be in service. So you may as well just get on with it.

Rick: Yeah, yeah. Well you know, I mean on a very mundane level people who are concerned with the betterment of the world can very often feel hopeless and frustrated. I mean the multinational corporations seem to have so much power, nothing seems to be getting done to really reverse global warming, and money is completely controlling the politicians, and all this stuff seems so entrenched and so difficult to budge.

Jeddah: From the human perspective it does.

Rick: From the human perspective. And I kind of always feel like, well yeah, but the subtle is more powerful, and if the subtle is getting enlivened, then somehow or other it’ll save the day, and that conscious intelligent forces much more powerful than global corporations will somehow … I mean it almost seems like we’re expecting something, like the Christians who feel like the second coming is going to come and save them, it almost sounds really pie in the sky like that, but I’m talking about a subtler mechanics which I’m sure you appreciate.

Jeddah: And agree with, actually. From the perspective of the other dimensions, you know, even the next dimension, the fourth dimension, you know, which is where human beings generally pass over to, so what we would term heaven is really just, you know, the fourth dimension. And of course the fifth, sixth, seventh dimensions where these elevated teachers and ascended masters are residing.

Rick: Is that as far as it goes, seven?

Jeddah: Yes, they are considered to be three realms beyond that, but you know, at that point one’s brain short-circuits and cannot process the information, me included.

Rick: I mean I imagine we could spend hours mapping it all out and getting into the fine details of all these different levels and what’s happening on them and all that, and probably, you know, that’s another time and place.

Jeddah: Yeah, it ends up being mind candy though, because you listen to all that and you go, “Oh, that sounds cool,” but actually none of that information makes a jot of difference to our daily lives.

Rick: Good point.

Jeddah: So that I just tend to just say, you know, yes it exists, yes it’s there, but let’s not worry about it, let’s just worry about how we can be better people on this planet at this time in our lives. So from other realms we look at the earth and we see that what’s happening here is not the result, as we’ve been told, of sin or an inherent flaw, but it’s really just a case of misunderstanding. We’ve misunderstood our design, the overall design of existence, and out of that misunderstanding we inadvertently misuse. So our thoughts, our speech, our actions, all of the assumptions that we make are based on a tiny bit of information, you know, based on what the five senses can see and behold and work with, and yet that piece of information is one puzzle piece in this huge picture that we’re missing. So when all of our conclusions are based on this one piece we are naturally going to try and preserve this one piece and that really is life on earth, you know, it’s one piece of a much bigger puzzle. What’s happening now is that all of the sort of areas of life that you’ve mentioned, you know, sort of the money machine and how the corporations are tapped into that, what’s happening to the ecology of our planet and the disaffection and alienation that people are feeling and the social unrest, this is because the resident and resonant frequency of the planet is being sort of upgraded and recalibrated by those larger, subtler movements in evolution and as they move into the physical structure, the emotional structure and the mental structure of the planet, they’re starting to cause a little, you know, quickening in the vibration and that’s why we’re starting to see unrest in all of those areas, you know, the structures give way because they can’t maintain themselves, they can’t maintain that small perception, that small illusion in the face of those bigger energies. So that is happening, however, because there’s no time outside of, you know, the space-time continuum, then there isn’t the same sort of urgency or hurry that, you know, we sometimes assume there is here and I think a lot of people, a lot of the proponents of change say well let’s just do away with corporations, let’s just do away with all of this, you know, as if, you know, but they still want to go to the cash point on Monday morning, you know, the ATM and they still want their bank to function, they still want to buy stuff, they still want to go on holiday, they still want to eat. So we can’t do away with it but we can, you know, gently and lovingly upgrade it and so that’s where I’ve chosen to place my efforts to help to bring an understanding of the big picture with all the puzzle pieces in place and say yes, we hear life on earth in this small compartment but we are part of a much, much bigger picture and if we run our life on earth, our, you know, individual mental processing, our emotional life, our physical life as well as our societal structures and provision, if we run them with the bigger picture in mind we will naturally be in alignment, we will naturally be a good fit so that the actions we take will naturally bring benefit, bring harmony. The only reason we have so much disharmony or so much discord is because we are persisting and insisting on following this very, very narrow worldview, existence view that just simply isn’t correct.

Rick: Yeah, well there’s a lot of considerations there. I mean, well I guess one is which is the cart and which is the horse.

Jeddah: The horse is the one with four legs.

Rick: The cart is the one with two wheels, but is the vibration of the planet rising because people are engaging in spiritual practice or are people engaging in spiritual practice because the vibration of the planet is rising? And if so, what is raising the vibration? Is it these higher beings we’ve talked about? Is it some kind of cosmic rays from the center of the galaxy? I mean, I’ve heard all kinds of theories, the precession of the equinoxes and all that stuff. So, what are the mechanics? And I hope this isn’t a mind candy question, because like you’re saying, if people just had a bigger picture and weren’t so myopic in their vision, we would run things differently. So even on an intellectual level, it’s I think good to understand that there are these higher dimensions and much more subtler forces in play than our mundane perception would have us believe. And then of course we need to substantiate that with direct experience, it can’t just remain an intellectual concept, but at least if we have some kind of idea of the roadmap or what’s actually going on, it gives us a start.

Jeddah: That’s right. And so I try to bring it back into what a so-called individual human being can understand about their own experience. So bring it back and say your being is a microcosm of this macrocosm. Your being is the laboratory for you to make experiments with what life is and to understand the design, the nature and the function of life and to test it out. That’s what our experience is, you know, testing it out. And put what you come to understand through your experience into practice, into the wider world around you. The good news is when we base our thoughts and speech and actions on true design, then as I said, we automatically bring benefit, we automatically create harmony. You know, it’s just a given. So I’m not advocating some utopian ideal of “Oh, we all just need to meditate, we all just need to be nice to one another.” I understand there’s a bigger evolution of consciousness happening that will take time to filter through and integrate, but in answer to your question, both is happening. You know, we are starting to access those bandwidths as human beings much more in these times than ever before, other than, you know, prehistory. And that is precipitating even greater help from the other dimensions, but they are also turning up the heat under our roasting pan because, you know, human beings have been given so many chances to come willingly to the next stage of their evolution and those elements which we all see and grieve for, which are holding on and seem to be resisting what brings universal benefit to mankind. We are receiving, you know, an intensified vibration frequency from other dimensions now to help to facilitate that shift. So both are happening.

Rick: Yeah, I was speaking to someone a couple weeks ago, maybe it was just last week, and she was saying, “Well, you know, the problems are so bad these days, it’s never been so dire,” and I think on the one hand there may be some truth in that because we’ve really reached the first time in human history in which our species could extinguish itself on the planet. But on the other hand, I mean, 500 years ago you would have been burned at the stake for saying what you’re saying right now, and that kind of thing was typical weekend entertainment. So it was a pretty primitive society, and there are actually pockets of that primitive mentality still on the planet, in Afghanistan and places like that. But it does seem that we live, despite all of our problems, it does seem we live in a more enlightened world.

Jeddah: Well, having said that, you know, there are still people out there willing to burn me at the stake for what I say, particularly the sectors I’ve chosen to work in. You know, with business, those who have a meditation practice and just want to understand more about existence on their own personal level, they seem most open to the information. However, one individual at a time, there’s a limit to how much change we can bring about. So that’s why I’ve sort of put myself forward to work with bigger business, to work with corporations, to work with government, to work with global organizations to help seed this understanding on a more systemic level.

Rick: When you’re working with those institutions, do you dumb it down or do you actually talk about the kind of stuff we’re talking about here?

Jeddah: I don’t dumb it down, but I use, I’m very specific with my language. I use everyday language, I use everyday examples, and I appeal to what is universal in this all, which is the desire to live well, to be safe, to feel good, you know, all of the things that we share. And everybody can relate to that, whether they’re the CEO of a corporation, you know, or a housewife in Idaho. So there’s a universal appeal to that. What they’re willing to do in order to bring that about varies enormously. But I am actually encouraged by some, there are some corporations now that are really willing to put their companies in the service of mankind and the service of our planet. And that takes a lot of courage, but they’re just starting to appear now. So there is hope on the horizon for those people who feel it’s all doom and gloom.

Rick: What kind of corporations would those be?

Jeddah: Well, you know, there’s the B corporations have started, which again have started around in California. The movement of conscious capitalism has started again in California and is spreading, is now here in the UK, and is gathering steam. There are individual companies that have changed, such as Unilever, that have changed their practices to make them much more, not just holistic, not just green, because we’ve had both of those waves, but really starting to look at the fundamental purpose of business and seeing that it’s not just, you know, the bottom line profit, but that the purpose of business is to serve the planet that it’s on. And once they make that transition, they’re finding a sort of a new impetus and a new purpose, new reason for being in business.

Rick: It seems to me that there are a number of corporations, such as for instance, tobacco or big oil, which really wouldn’t have much of a place, if any, in what we might call an enlightened society, in a society where this transition that we’re beginning to see the inklings of had run its course to complete development. And there are others which would have to be radically transformed, even the whole agriculture industry is doing most of what it does, is unsustainable and probably not going to exist going to occur. So what would you say if you were invited to, say, speak to a tobacco company, I mean, knowing in the back of your mind that what’s actually going on is going to put them out of existence?

Jeddah: My sense is that no matter how things look on the surface, that we as human beings are sort of very addicted to how things look on the surface, so no matter how things look on the surface, within each and every company there is sort of buried light and you just have to do your best through compassionate action and understanding to reach that light. If through their own free will they choose not to follow that call that everyone contains, but not everyone follows, if they choose not to follow it collectively, then their obsolescence is going to be a natural outcome. But there are examples of companies that look as if they’re, you know, part of the traditional rape and pillage of our planet that have started to make, you know, small steps towards turning things around. And so I think we in all cases can be surprised by what we can do, given the right intent and right energy. I don’t know which companies will ultimately decide to do that, but I’m willing at least to put them in the picture and then let them decide to what extent they want to play.

Rick: Well it’s cool because in a way you’re like a secret agent that’s going in and working from the inside with some of the, I don’t know what companies you’re consulting with, but there’s no reason why a company like BP couldn’t, you know, channel much of its vast resources into alternative energy and solar and stuff like that. Rather than spending hundreds of millions of dollars trying to cause doubt about global warming. So it would just be a matter, I suppose, of whatever it is that moves the policy makers to make the policies they make.

Jeddah: Yeah. Well that’s one of the reasons why I’ve chosen to work with CEOs, because they tend to be, you know, the visionaries and they tend to be the driving force behind the purpose and the vision and the intent of the company. But they also are having a hard time. You know, there are a lot of great CEOs out there who have good ideas, but they’re finding it difficult to bring a more enlightened understanding even into their own cultures and structures. They get a lot of kickback and resistance there. So we’re trying to provide a safe platform, a safe environment for those individuals who really do want to make a difference and want to help their companies make a difference, to kind of hothouse them and support them.

Rick: Yeah. I mean, what would you say to the idea that a company, or a country for that matter, is kind of governed ultimately by a certain collective consciousness?

Jeddah: Yes.

Rick: Regardless of how enlightened the CEO or the president of the country may be, they are pretty much at the mercy of that collective consciousness.

Jeddah: I wouldn’t say at the mercy, because certain key individuals have managed to ignite a passion and a vision with those that they work with to the extent that they can elicit change. But it’s certainly true that they need to engage and turn around those cultures before they get the movement that they desire. And it’s very often the case that they themselves, as you rightly said, are much more liberal and pioneering and free than the companies that they represent. And oftentimes they confine themselves to their own sort of personal vision quest because they don’t feel able to bring it. It takes a rare individual to be charismatic enough, determined enough and sure enough of themselves to be able to carry and influence and reprogram the doubting culture that exists.

Rick: Yeah, and if they try, inevitably they’re going to get a lot of flack. I live in Iowa and all the politicians come to Iowa, so we’ve had the opportunity to see President Obama a few times and I had the opportunity to shake his hand on the rope line they call it and said to him, “We love you,” and said, “Don’t let the turkeys get you down.” He laughed and he said, “There’s a lot of them out there, they just keep on gobbling.” So you can imagine being in a seat like that and trying to introduce some initiative that represents a much more enlightened way of doing things and the flack you get when you try.

Jeddah: Yeah, and I think also, you know, nobody is really willing to stick their neck out and tell it like it is. And that is true of, you know, the sort of story behind how business and politics and money operates, but it’s also true of how existence operates. If you look at those who were willing to really stand up and say, you know, actually existence is designed this way, this is its nature and this is its function, even that doesn’t go down well. It’s not welcomed on our planet, you know.

Rick: You get crucified, you get shot.

Jeddah: You get crucified, you get shot. So you can do. So until it is more widespread, the understanding of exactly what this thing called existence is, how we all come to be, you know, how is it that we can have experience, how can we exist, how can we formulate a thought, how can we make a sentence, how can we even reach out and pick up our water, none of this is really understood, you know. And science has come a long way but is still operating, you know, with a ceiling above its head and even those within science that try to move beyond that understanding are also castigated. So there seems to be a particularly sort of energetic resistance to embracing and understanding and acknowledging how we are designed, what is really happening with us, and to move away from the story that the five senses is giving us into that sixth sense of consciousness producing experience. So until that happens we are going to see, you know, the endless iterations of, you know, the illusion and the storyline and the dynamics and the mechanics and all of the posturing that goes on. It’s all just moving furniture around in the same room.

Rick: It’s interesting. I think what you’re saying here speaks to something very fundamental to the structure of creation. You know, in the Hindu realm they have sattva, rajas and tamas, and tamas is said to be inertia and kind of holds things back, but all three are considered necessary for the actual creation to exist. If you just had pure creativity, unbridled, without any checks and balances, without anything to sort of individuate and solidify and so on, then we wouldn’t have the sort of creation in which we find ourselves living. It would be, I don’t know what it would be, it wouldn’t work.

Jeddah: Well, it would keep moving on. It wouldn’t be able to maintain its structural integrity. So the oak tree would come into existence but then would pass away again very quickly. It needs to have a kind of staying force applied on it to be able to maintain its presence in that form.

Rick: You also have Brahma, Vishnu and Shiva. Brahma is the creator, Vishnu is said to be the maintainer, and Shiva the destroyer. And you need all three elements in order for there to be a viable creation. So did you ever, yourself, getting back to your personal story for a minute, have what you would call an awakening, a satori, a nirvana that was a watershed moment for you and you never went back? It was like you got enlightened.

Jeddah: I don’t use the word enlightened because to me it seems very loaded and is actually for all the people I’ve worked with, it’s actually a huge hindrance. It causes so much grief that I actually say to people, “Don’t shoot for that as a goal. You can be continuously consciously content. That’s a much better goal.” I don’t think there was a single smackaroo, blurdy moment that changed everything. But I do remember there was a period during which things were occurring to me and so I use the term truth realized. So I realized the truth in that period of time and it was a series of moments and that has never left me. So that somehow emblazoned, so it was basically being gifted the knowledge of the structural mechanics of existence. So being able to go behind the Wizard of Oz curtain and look and see what is bringing all this into being. And I might add, because I tend to piss off the scientists because I talk in very general terms about this, so I have an absolute knowingness of the validity of that experience but I wasn’t necessarily shown it in like a microscopic view. I was just given the general truth of it and that’s been the basis of everything that I’ve done since. So that did happen but I wouldn’t really call it enlightenment because enlightenment as I understand it is when the truth that you know is fully integrated and realized in your energy body, in your full energy bodies, and that is for me a work in progress.

Rick: Beautiful answer. I ask because sometimes people portray enlightenment or awakening, and most people are a little squeamish about the word enlightenment, but let’s say awakening, as a sort of a black-white on-off situation. And they even use the argument, it’s like pregnancy, either you’re pregnant or you’re not. But if you walk up to a woman who’s maybe one month pregnant and say, “Whoa, you really look pregnant,” you’re likely to offend her. But if you walk up to somebody who’s eight months pregnant and say that, you’ll have a nice conversation about motherhood or something. So it seems to me there are degrees of maturity of awakening and I suppose there is a single moment at which you become pregnant but you probably aren’t aware of it and it might grow by degrees to the point where you begin to recognize symptoms.

Jeddah: Yes, and that’s a very good analogy. I do remember the point where I realized that I realized and then that was an “Ah!” So I mean, yes, we could call that an awakening. And as I said, I use the term truth realization just because it’s very, I like to use very conventional terms, you know, to get away from all of this jargon around spirituality and that spiritual seekers have their own language that no one understands. Just to put it in everyday terms, yeah, I realized something. However, again, if you go around saying, “I realized the truth,” people get gishery about that too. You know, who are you to say, “Yeah, it sounds pompous.” You know, you can qualify it but that sounds like justification. So what I’ve chosen to do is just, “This is what I understand, this is the ways that I explain it, and then you can see if it works for you” and let people find it within their own experience.

Rick: Now when you mentioned it a few minutes ago in response to my question, you said when you described this realization of truth it was sort of in terms of a realization of the mechanics of creation or something, but usually when people talk about awakening or realization it’s in terms of self-realization, recognizing the self as pure universal consciousness as opposed to one, you know, regarding oneself as a flesh-bound little thing. So how would you explain this in terms of self-realization?

Jeddah: Well, that’s a very perceptive point. I have always found it difficult to experience the individuated self. So it doesn’t seem, you know, the self in most cases is the “I” of the small self and for me the “I” has always been the higher self. So it didn’t feel like there was a small self to have that realization. You know, all along I’ve always felt that I was the higher self. However, I do have a personality, I do have an identity, you know, I do have a temperament, I do have a disposition, I do have likes and dislikes and all of those things that come with the human realm. But I have a much more tenuous connection to that than most people would. So for me my focus in that moment and in all moments, in all my meditations is not so much on ‘there’s no me,’ the “I” that I experience is the “I” of universal consciousness. So to me it seems very normal and natural that I should understand that rather than this.

Rick: Yeah. Some people argue that since you can’t actually find a nugget of an individual self, no matter how hard you look, that there isn’t one, you know, that there is no self. And many teachers base their whole teaching on this and they even go to conclude things like, “Well, since there is no individual self, there couldn’t be reincarnation because there’s nothing to reincarnate.” And there couldn’t be free will because there’s no one to decide and so on and so forth. What would you say to that argument?

Jeddah: I’d say it’s half-baked. We have, again, you know, it’s much more elegant than, you know, these sort of black and white kind of scenarios that people propose. We exist on a spectrum, just like the dimensions do. We exist right across that spectrum. So our physical self is going to make certain conclusions around life based on our genetics, based on our cultural environment, based on our education, based on, you know, our family and friends, and based on the times in which we are born. You know, so there’s all those influences feeding into the physical self which gives it a uniqueness for that particular incarnation as well as, you know, the astrology, whether you buy into that or not. You know, that’s also going to be unique for each incarnation and for each person. So all of those are X factors which are slightly calibrating you differently to your neighbor so that creates that diversity that we see. When we move into the fourth dimension, we start to see the soul self. The human incarnations get sort of uploaded into this vehicle of the soul self and the soul self is the capsule which goes through subsequent incarnations and each of the individual incarnations just gets passed up into the soul self. So the soul self is the repository for that knowledge in each incarnation. Then at the same time as the soul self is receiving that information up from the individuated physical bodies, it’s also receiving the influence coming down from the higher self. So that’s the self which stays forever connected into those higher realms and is never divorced from. So we’re existing right across that all of the time. So the soul self is the sort of, the capsule, or the vehicle which propels us from incarnation to incarnation. The free will is another sort of faculty which is tied to our use of consciousness so we can direct our attention, we can direct our will towards making choices, you know, which is a uniquely human experience. So to say that there’s no self to exert free will is misunderstanding the full design of how we’re put together.

Rick: That’s a beautiful answer and a very nuanced understanding that I think would be a benefit to be more widely propagated because a lot of spiritual speakers these days aren’t so nuanced and like you say, they’re more kind of black and white than that. I mean, couldn’t we kind of borrow an understanding from physics where if I take my hand, for instance, and look deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper and deeper, I get to the point where there is actually no material substance and there’s no hand and it’s all just sort of this unmanifest potentiality, but still on a practical level I have a hand. So you can say it’s ultimately unreal but that’s not really a practical consideration and you can say gravity is ultimately non-existent but don’t go jumping off buildings to prove it. So as you say, there’s this full spectrum of creation, many many dimensions, and each dimension, although you can dismiss it as unreal if you want to analyze it closely enough, each dimension has its own level of reality, its own laws, and deserves its due in terms of our … Yeah.

Jeddah: And those who say that nothing exists, they’re talking about the formless realms and they’re talking really about those three higher realms which do not require form in order to exist. So the formless realms, the fifth, sixth and the seventh have a very rapid frequency and when consciousness resides there the concern and the degree to which the physical or even the formed is given weighting is really, really, really minimal. So that’s where people start to talk about, “Oh, nothing exists,” or “It’s all illusion.” They’re talking from that place but simultaneously you also have a soul-self that is actually seeking incarnation, is actually seeking individuated experiences in order to expose itself to a wide variety of experiences and situations and people in order to learn more.

Rick: And why does it want to do that?

Jeddah: Well, you know, existence exists and that’s clear and that’s the formless part which is the unchanging, you know, but existence wants to know that it exists. So existence wants to experience itself and the only way it can do that is by creating consciousness. So consciousness is growing within the totality of existence and it’s that growing consciousness of itself that is the evolution of consciousness. We’re never going to have more existence or less existence than we’ve got now. Existence is what it is but the extent to which existence knows itself consciously and therefore experientially is changing and growing and emerging and that’s the whole purpose of human beings is to feed that information up into, to add to the great knowingness.

Rick: Yeah, and wouldn’t you say not only human beings but dogs and cats and germs and the entire universe, why did it come into existence in the first place?

Jeddah: Of course, of course. I mean, it’s interesting though that dogs and cats and germs don’t have consciousness in the same way and this sets a lot of people off because they say, “Oh no, they’re sacred,” and you know, they have awareness but not conscious awareness.

Rick: Not self-awareness.

Jeddah: Self-awareness, exactly. So we have to make these distinctions otherwise we are misunderstanding again and you know with the best of intent we can still be barking up the wrong tree.

Rick: Or meowing as the case may be. And if you look at their nervous systems it’s clear that there’s less development there, you know, we have more sophisticated brains and so it stands to reason that we’re going to have a more sophisticated capacity for self-recognition.

Jeddah: Yes, however, because they don’t have that they have a far greater capacity for direct connection to awareness which is, you know, well documented and shown and most people accept that, you know, because they are attuned indirectly to the intelligence of existence and operate from that. So on the one hand they don’t have the capacity for individuated self-reflection but on the other hand they are amazing examples of, if your mind can get out of the way, you know, this is what you’re able to sort of be and download and express.

Rick: It’s an interesting point and some people actually jump to the conclusion that animals are enlightened or by the same token babies are enlightened because they seem so innocent and yet you know you have to kind of pass through this minefield of evolution before you can kind of get to the point at which you have the innocence of an animal or a baby and yet you know a whole new level of …

Jeddah: Yeah, but you have to choose it consciously rather than just have it as a God-given faculty.

Rick: Yeah, huh. Okay, so I want to give you a chance to talk a little bit about what you offer, what you teach. I listened to all of the tapes, although I haven’t yet done all the guided meditations, but I listened to all the talks in your Changing the Paradigm series and enjoyed that very much and I’m all for changing the paradigm. So would you like to touch upon what’s in that series and what you’re trying to do with people and it’s not just corporations and stuff, I mean people can order these recordings and do it in their homes and so on.

Jeddah: Absolutely, yeah. The work that I’m doing with businesses and corporations has come latterly, you know I started working with individuals and so I’ve been asked by, you know, the honest answer is I was asked by the Brotherhood to do this, to make these teachings available.

Rick: How about the Sisterhood?

Jeddah: Say again?

Rick: Is there a Sisterhood?

Jeddah: No, you know, which just pisses the feminists off no end. You know, I read emails from them before, but to me the word doesn’t upset me at all, it just means, you know, fraternity, which still implies men I know, of beings.

Rick: Of all genders?

Jeddah: Yeah, but I mean …

Rick: Or gender is irrelevant at that level.

Jeddah: Exactly, of course. And you know, the word Brotherhood was just simply coined at a time when they understood things to be, you know, working through groups of men.

Rick: And you mentioned Mother Mary and Mary Magdalene and all that.

Jeddah: Yes, so those terms, and they are also part of the Brotherhood, so those terms have just stuck and I don’t get hung up on them, but some people do.

Rick: So you were asked?

Jeddah: I was asked to make these teachings available and …

Rick: Excuse me, just because people have these kind of questions, I can just hear people say, “Wait a minute, how did she know she was asked? In what form did that request come? Did she hear a voice? Did she see a vision? How does she know it’s not just her imagination?” Try to substantiate that a little bit for people.

Jeddah: Well, I said earlier that I’ve just, throughout my life, and particularly through my adult life, I’ve had an ability just without trying to be able to tune in with these teachers and masters and guides. And so a lot of the information that comes to me just comes to me as a readily known download. So I just know that I know and I don’t need any sort of process of substantiation within my own being. It comes with a level of certainty and trust that is its own messenger, if you like. And it relates in some ways to the kind of trust and certainty I felt as a child. It was just simply unquestioned. I know for a lot of people unquestioned equates to a lack of discernment, which is what they’re worried about.

Rick: Right, gullibility.

Jeddah: But the fruits of the work speak for themselves. And so the process of how it came about is less important and less exciting. So it was really to make known what I’ve already described about this is possible for every single human being to have direct access to the energy of existence in any given moment. So that’s the thrust of the teachings. It also became known to me that these were going to be available through a series of CDs and that it was going to be three volumes. And I did consciously tune in to see what topics were going to be there and feel that we’ve covered. You know the first volume, Seeds of Enlightenment, sort of covers the general principles that we need to understand in order to navigate on a day-to-day basis.

Rick: Yeah, I actually have the titles here, “Conscious Awareness in the Present Moment,” “Intention and Feedback,” “Overcoming Limitation,” “Energy Centers,” “Energy Bodies,” “Trust and Surrender,” “Changing the Paradigm,” and “Benevolent Intelligence.”

Jeddah: Yeah, so that’s really just introducing people to some of the nuts and bolts that are part of it. Then with “Embracing Freedom” we really wanted to create a volume that dealt with, you know, what are the major issues for people on a daily basis? Sure they want to be enlightened, sure they want to know more, everybody wants to live in ease and peace, you know, it goes without saying. So what are the kind of things that trip people up that they need, you know, which seem like small things, but they need to be able to be proficient and conversant with these issues before they can move on in any real way. So that’s what “Embracing Freedom” was really, to just deal with, you know, the pitfalls of daily human life.

Rick: Yeah, let me read the titles of that one. “Willing and Allowing,” “Holding Consciousness Steady,” “Clear Light Mind,” “Meaning,” “Physical Body,” “Self-Acceptance,” “Self-Responsibility,” “Balance,” “Humility,” “Confidence,” “The Nature of Giving,” and “Unseen Helpers.” And yeah.

Jeddah: That’s all, yeah. And then the third one was really to open the doors of the design of existence and say, “Look, this is how, these are the sort of energetic structural components of existence and this is how you can participate in that directly.” So looking at not only the mechanics but particularly the frequency. So “Infinite Grace,” the third volume, is specifically introducing people to those higher frequency states that everybody desires and very few people understand. So working with the structural mechanics of expansion and light and harmony and all the states that are possible through that.

Rick: Yeah, and I should say that each volume is sort of a back and forth between an introduction in which you explain the principles of what you’re going to do and then a guided meditation in which people can experience what you’ve just explained.

Jeddah: Yeah, which is really important. And that’s where the rubber meets the road. You know, you can listen to all the introductions, you can listen to them every day. Some people I know have them on a loop, you know, in their house. But it’s a nice piece of information but doesn’t exact any transformation unless we practice it, unless we integrate light consciously into our energy field. We won’t get to call it our own, we won’t get to experience it. We’ll always have that. We’ll always have these states as a nice holiday destination but it won’t be like a permanent residence.

Rick: How many people have done these courses?

Jeddah: Oh, hundreds of thousands.

Rick: Wow.

Jeddah: Yeah, yeah.

Rick: Now when people go to your website and look at this they’re going to say, “She must be a very rich woman,” you know. And that money thing always comes up so you might as well address it.

Jeddah: Well, I’ll tell you the truth, right here I get 7% of the profit of the sales.

Rick: Where does the rest of it go?

Jeddah: To the company that paid for it all to happen. So no, I’m not a very rich woman but I’m a very content woman and I’m a woman who’s happy with my level of service so I get paid in other ways. So the CDs is one avenue. The other avenue that we offer is a DVD which was just a recording of a retreat I did which is yet another avenue. So each year, actually not this year, but each year in California we’ve put on a public retreat where people can come and spend time, you know, three, four, five days. And those I love. Those have been fantastic. Amazing bunch of people turn up each year and we have a lot of fun and deep learning so that’s been great. This year I’m going to be at Findhorn in October, end of October, so I won’t be in California.

Rick: Is that when your retreat usually is, late October?

Jeddah: No, it’s usually around June time, yeah, May-June time. So this year it’s going to be in October. And so those are the ways that I’ve been working with people for many, many years as well as doing private mentoring and doing groups.

Rick: And what kind of results have you seen? You have all these hundreds of thousands of people, you’ve been working for many years. I mean how many people have awakened to some degree in the direction of what you have experienced? To what extent have you been able to impart or convey or enable others?

Jeddah: Enable others, yeah, replicate.

Rick: Yeah, well people can go to the testimonials on the website. We have hundreds and hundreds of testimonials and we put up a fraction of that on our website. We’re very fortunate in so much as the teachings are very clean, they’re very pure and they’re given that way freely so that people are able to experience it very directly and it’s made a significant change. I think in a lot of people’s lives. So we have the data to know that there’s people in 62 countries around the world using our material but we don’t necessarily, sometimes we take the odd survey, you know, and ask people what’s happening. But we have amazing testimonials of things that have happened in people’s lives. And it’s all very positive, it’s very gratifying. And we’re very lucky in so much as we have pretty much 99.9%, you know, 100% satisfaction rate. So we’re very blessed in that way and wonderful people that we’ve got to work with. So yeah, they’re a nice community.

Rick: Yeah, that’s great. Yeah, as I say, I’ve listened to them all. I’m one of these people who’s just mainly listened to the introductions. I listened to a bunch of the meditations but I meditate a lot every day but I have my own way of doing it and I really should devote some time to sitting and I’d like to, you know, just going through your thing.

Jeddah: Yeah, well some people say, one of the things we hear a lot is that, you know, I’ve been meditating for 30 or 40 years and doing your meditations has actually brought me to the place that I’ve been trying to get to all that time. So those are the kind of comments that we hear regularly.

Rick: I’ve never considered myself much of a visualizer, you know, when I listen to a guided meditation they’re talking about, “Oh now, you experienced this,” and it’s sort of like, it’s kind of an amorphous mush and I’m not really kind of visualizing it very clearly.

Jeddah: Yeah, but that comes too though, that comes with practice. And sometimes there’s too much, depending on how we’re wired as well, you know, if you have the kind of meditations where you go into a very peaceful state and you just want to maintain that peace and keep the mind at bay, then, you know, a lot of words can seem sort of almost like it’s crashing in on that environment. But in order to, I mean, I always say, I’m very clear with people, I’m not about giving anybody just a nice ride, you know, this is not about just making you feel good about yourself or the world. These teachings are designed to make you free. But actually what I’ve discovered over the years is that the percentage of people who actually are willing to go through the process of freedom is minuscule compared to those who say they want it. And those who say they want it is minuscule compared to all the beings on the planet. Actually most people, even though they want to be happy, they want to be content, they want to be successful, they don’t necessarily frame that in terms of freedom. Yeah, the Bhagavad Gita says something like that too, you know, it sort of narrows it down from those who haven’t even heard of it to those who hear of it and those who actually do something about it to those who actually realize it and it becomes this very small subset.

Jeddah: There’s three of us left!

Rick: So how many kids do you have?

Jeddah: Four.

Rick: Four, ranging in quite an age range.

Jeddah: Yeah, 10 to 23.

Rick: So this is a rubber meets the road situation. I mean, with all of your beautiful transcendent experience and all that, how easy was it to meet the challenges of marriage and family life?

Jeddah: Not that easy. On the one hand, meeting the beingness of my children is just a piece of cake. It’s the area of my life where I can instantly feel bliss and contentment, just being around my children and just tuning in with them and just holding them and loving them and witnessing them and experiencing them. So that comes very readily and easily and is something I very much enjoy. In terms of the discipline and organization of making sure that there’s always a meal on the table, that everything is done in advance, that I did quite well, I will admit. In terms of the mental strain and the sheer busyness and noise of a household where three of them were young at the same time, that I didn’t ace at all, that I really struggled with because I’m, as you can probably guess, quite a sensitive person. And so sometimes the clamor and the clatter of an active, busy, noisy, demanding household I didn’t do well with. So it’s not all one way, but I feel that my forte is in loving my children and they will grow up feeling absolutely seen and loved.

Rick: That’s great. I wanted to ask you that question because I think it’s very common for people to either aspire to spiritual experience or to have one and yet have a really hard time integrating it in practical life. In fact, I interviewed this woman about a month ago named Prajna Ginti and she was sort of like you prior to the children, just having these sublime experiences and going into samadhi for hours on end. And then she gave birth to twins three months premature and ended up with this incredibly intense challenge and nearly brought her to suicide, but she kind of came around and eventually rose to the challenge and has come full circle in terms of really living a very enlightened life while still raising these developmentally challenged girls.

Jeddah: Yeah, yeah. Well you know I’m no longer married to my husband, although we have a wonderful co-parenting relationship. So I’ve had to also really take hold of the challenge of providing for myself and my children and making my way in the world and all of that. I’ve had to keep a lot of plates spinning and I tend to acquire animals too. So as well as having four children, I end up with five animals as well. So I have horses and cats and so there’s a lot of responsibility. There’s a lot to do and so don’t always feel entirely gracious with all of that.

Rick: Well you’re very honest in saying that, you know, and people appreciate that. And you’re also setting a good example for, you know, we’ve all got challenges. If you don’t mind me asking, feel free to decline to answer this, but I probably shouldn’t even ask, but in terms of your husband, was there sort of a problem with being on such different wavelengths, you being so kind of spiritually oriented and most people aren’t?

Jeddah: No, I don’t think that was so much of an issue for him. I think for me as, I’m a curious case even for myself in so much as I’ve always, since a young child, had this readily available, unfettered access to the heavens, but I haven’t always been able to directly translate that into living life well as a human being. So I’ve had all of the same lessons that anybody would have had and you would say to me, “Well, why didn’t you make use of that information that you had access to?” I have. I have made use of that information, but you still need to apply it on a daily basis and you need to make sure it’s integrated to such a level that it is automatic. So that is a process that I’m going through just like anybody else. So in terms of my ability to relate to another human being as a life partner, whether that’s my husband or another partner, then I have some of the challenges that anybody would have in that situation. And the beauty is that, when I experience difficulty, that I have an amazing resource that I can draw on to be able to make sense of that and to really see it on a full spectrum level. So I’m not committed to being in the problem, I’m not destined to be in the problem. I have the possibility of seeing beyond the problem, seeing beyond the individual human self into a wider sense.

Rick: Yeah, beautiful answer. You’re giving lots of nice answers. In other words, you’re not totally blinkered by the situation at hand, there’s sort of other dimensions that you can bring to bear on any situation.

Jeddah: Exactly right, yes, well put, yeah. And I’m very grateful for that, you know. And there have been periods of my life where I didn’t, maybe I took that access for granted because it’s been there all along. There was a stage in my life where it was much more normal for me to speak to Jesus than it was to speak to my mother, you know. I get on better with him than I do with my mom, you know. So I’ve always been orientated to the non-physical beings and that side of things is easy for me. But to really make this pledge to show up as a human being and let all of that wisdom, all of that light come into my everyday life, that’s an ongoing process. And I do it with as much humility and honesty and goodwill as I can.

Rick: Well you know there’s that famous saying that we’re not physical beings having a spiritual experience, we’re spiritual beings having a physical experience. And I think that’s probably true of everyone, but it’s interesting to meet somebody who’s living that large, you know, and who’s really consciously experiencing a much fuller significance of that phrase.

Jeddah: Yeah. Well the reason I say I’m a bit of an odd case is most beings have a certain degree of conscious knowingness and they are trying to extend that and expand that conscious knowingness. I am an unusual case in so much as I normally reside in these realms, whereas that’s home for me, and I don’t often incarnate. So the process of incarnation and the taking hold of a body and operating the physical body, which is exactly what happened when I was a child, you know, the taking hold of that physical body, that my beingness was at a different frequency to my physical form and there was this slight mismatch, that process has not been straightforward for me. So I actually feel like I’m trying to become more human as most of the people around me are trying to become less human.

Rick: That’s an interesting tidbit and I’m glad you brought that out just now. So you’re looking at the big picture now and saying that for most of your existence as a soul, at least in recent ages, you have not been human. You’ve been living on some other plane primarily, and that, you know, this is a bit of a dip into concreteness that you haven’t been accustomed to so much.

Jeddah: Exactly. I’ve had cause to regret that decision on some occasions.

Rick: Oh, wait a minute, stop the world, I want to get off. Interesting, interesting. Well, this has been delightful. I have another interview coming up in about five minutes, I’ll have to wrap up, but I hope we will do this again one of these days, you know. You’re one of these people that I feel like I’ve just scratched the surface and that we could somehow work it out, and I say this with apologies to a lot of people I’ve interviewed who are clamoring for a second interview. We’ll do it eventually, but there’s over a thousand people on the list clamoring for a first one. But I feel like there’s a lot more to unpack with you, and you know, maybe even five years from now a lot of stuff will have unfolded that you haven’t done yet, you know. So we’ll see how it goes.

Jeddah: Yeah, yeah. Well, I’ve enjoyed it too, so thank you very much.

Rick: Yeah, did anybody ever tell you you look a lot like the American actress Vera Farmiga?

Jeddah: I’m not familiar with her.

Rick: Look her up.

Jeddah: Okay, I will.

Rick: But before we conclude, let me just make some wrap-up points that I always make. People who are listening to this, you’ve been listening or watching an interview in an ongoing series. There are about 230 of them so far, and you’ll find them all archived on batgap.com, B-A-T-G-A-P. And there, Jeddah Mali will have her own page for this interview, and I’ll have information about her and a link to her website and so on. So you can follow through to that and get in touch with her. There are also several different indices of the previous interviews. There’s an alphabetical one down the right-hand side, there’s a chronological one under past interviews, there will eventually be a geographical one, there’s a topical one, you know, trying to categorize people in terms of different, what they do. So explore all that. There’s another menu which says future interviews, and there’s a place where you can see the upcoming ones, you can suggest a guest if you like, there’s a menu for that. And there’s also an upcoming events page where, you know, I haven’t really done this comprehensively yet but all the people I’ve interviewed, or some of them anyway so far, you can see events that they may be offering in different parts of the world. Then there is a donate button, which I appreciate people clicking, makes all this possible. I want to continue to make this available for free to everyone who likes to watch, but that depends upon some people donating if they feel inclined. There is a place to sign up to be notified by email of each interview as it’s released. You won’t get really any emails other than that, you get about one a week. There’s a discussion group that crops up around each interview and there will be one for this interview specifically, you’ll see a link to it. And there’s also a link to an audio podcast on iTunes so you can subscribe to that if you don’t feel like just sitting in front of your computer watching things for hours on end, you can just listen while you’re cutting the grass or something. So thanks for listening or watching and we’ll see you next week and thank you again, Jeddah, it was really a joy.

Jeddah: Yeah, me too. Yeah, I really enjoyed meeting you. Thank you very much.

Rick: Thanks for joining.

Jeddah: Take care. Bye.

Rick: Bye.