Summary
Ivan Rados describes an awakening marked by several days of thought-free stillness and a changed sense of self and reality. He explores how intuition, consciousness, and freedom from socially conditioned thinking can reshape perception and action.
Questions This Interview Explores
- What can a profound spiritual awakening feel like, and how can it change perception of self and reality?
- How can I distinguish consciousness or deeper knowing from the conditioned mind?
- How can intuition guide choices when many possibilities are available?
- Is it possible to use the mind without being identified with it?
Key takeaways
- Awakening may be experienced as simple, thought-free awareness rather than bliss or visions.
- Changing your sense of self changes how you perceive reality.
- The mind is socially conditioned, while consciousness is a deeper field of knowing.
- Intuition can guide action beyond binary, ego-driven choices.
- The mind can serve practical purposes without defining who you are.
- Inner peace comes from releasing the weight of anxious, oppositional thinking.
Transcript
Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of interviews with spiritually awakening people. Today’s interview with Ivan Rados is number 400, so congratulations, Ivan. You just lucked out to be number 400.
Ivan: Thank you.
Rick: If anyone is discovering this for the first time and you’d like to check out some of the previous ones, go to batgap.com and look under the Past Interviews menu, where you’ll find all the previous ones organized and categorized in four or five different ways.
This show is made possible by the support of appreciative listeners and viewers, so if you appreciate it and feel like supporting it, there is a Donate button on every page of the site.
So, as I just hinted, today’s guest is Ivan Rados. I’ll just read a quick bio of him, and then we’ll get into it.
Ivan, who also goes by the spiritual name Atma, is a meditation master who was born in the former Yugoslavia. At the age of 42, he experienced a profound inner awakening that changed his perception of himself and reality, after which he was devoted to integrating his knowing into his being, marking the beginning of a movement toward the inner point, which he calls the middle point.
He started teaching meditation regularly from his healing studio in Vancouver. As a healer, Atma is a true master of both himself and his life. He asserts that he heals no one, but simply helps people heal themselves through the power of consciousness.
His journey reads like a book of miracles, which he modestly labels “ordinarinesses.” We’ll be talking about that. The wisdom he shares comes from his deep roots in the one Self, the source of everything.
Atma has assisted thousands in reconnecting with their state of health in personal, group, and long-distance sessions. He is not associated with any particular spiritual movement, religion, or tradition.
His deep and authentic rooting in the unknown provides him with the insight and ability to be of great service to the evolution of consciousness in these most transformative of times. He travels extensively, taking his knowingness throughout the world, facilitating meditation classes, talks, intensives, and retreats.
So, welcome.
Ivan: Thank you. Thank you for inviting me.
Rick: Did I do that? Oh, inviting you. I thought you said enlightening you. No, I didn’t do that. I invited you; I didn’t enlighten you.
Yes, you’re welcome. You came recommended by a number of people. So, the former Yugoslavia—what year was that that you were born?
Ivan: My body was born in the former Yugoslavia.
Rick: Oh, yeah. I mean, that’s what we mean.
Ivan: I have a relationship with my body, but not with the place where my body was born.
Rick: Right.
Ivan: Okay. My body was born in, I don’t know, ’53, ’54, ’55—62, so you count?
Rick: ’62, okay.
Ivan: I’m not obsessed by numbers or by age.
Rick: That’s okay. And when did you leave Yugoslavia?
Ivan: I left Yugoslavia a couple of times, but just three days before the war, I left. I just said, “That’s it. I don’t want to participate in any madness,” and I left.
Since then, I’ve just cut my past totally. That’s why I said I’m not related to the place; I’m related to my body.
Rick: Yeah, and in some way you’re not even related to that, I suppose. You talk about that.
Ivan: I have to live in my body in this life.
Rick: That’s true.
Ivan: I don’t know what kind of other bodies I’ll get when I go somewhere else, but I’m very happy with this body right now.
Rick: Good. Well, I’m glad you got out of there when you did. So, you experienced this profound inner awakening at the age of 42. How old are you now, body-wise?
Ivan: Body-wise, 150.
Rick: Hey, well-preserved. You lost your hair, but otherwise you look pretty good.
Ivan: It’s tiring, isn’t it, to hang your body around? I’d rather fly, but I’m very fortunate to have my beloved Lana, who is holding me back on Earth, grounding me. Otherwise, I’m just—you know, my main excuse is that I’m an artist, so I can hide my madness behind being an artist.
Rick: Yeah, my father was a professional artist, too. Just don’t go cutting off your ear. You have nice ears.
So, what was this profound inner awakening that happened when you were 42? What happened?
Ivan: Oh…
Rick: And why did it happen? Had you been doing some kind of spiritual practice or something?
Ivan: I mean, you see, I’ve been searching all my life for something that I thought was, you know, whatever enlightenment. I had an idea of what enlightenment is. I had a concept, and I had an entire theory behind it. I was studying everything along the way just to find and confirm my idea.
I kept searching and searching and searching, but never, ever really finding. Along my search, though, I was expressing myself through my art. I was being creative with myself; I was drawing out my consciousness.
Let me go back to when I was a kid.
Rick: Sure.
Ivan: That was my first recollection, my first memory. I was maybe in grade one or grade two. I would touch kids if they had any problems—stomachache, toothache, headache, whatever. Even when they were hurt, emotionally disturbed, or anxious, I had, I don’t know, empathy and compassion. I would come hug them and put my hand on their stomach or on their face to heal the tooth or whatever, and they would feel better and run around.
I would be a little bit tired. My body would be tired.
Rick: It would drain you a little bit.
Ivan: A little bit drained. I remember those moments when I would be totally depleted. It was like, “Oh, God!”
Anyway, a principal called my mom. My mom went there, and whatever they were talking about, my mom came home and said, “You know, you’re not allowed to do that.”
I said, “What? I mean, I didn’t know what I was doing wrong.”
She said, “You’ve been doing wrong. Everyone was unhappy. Their teachers were unhappy talking about it. You’re distracting the classes and distracting the kids, and other parents are talking.” It was like, “Oh, my God!”
I didn’t know what to do, so I went to my grandma. My grandma said, “Oh, my son, you came with that—whatever you came with, that energy, compassion, ability to heal, or whatever. But there are two ways you can do that. You can continue doing it or suppress it. What are you going to do?”
I didn’t know what suppression meant, but it meant forgetting it, not doing it, in a way. I said, “Is there any third option?”
My grandma said, “What do you think?”
I said, “Can I change it into something else?”
I was playing outside, changing the positions of rocks, for example.
Rick: You could move them with your mind, you mean?
Ivan: Yeah, yeah. I was making rocks into certain geometrical patterns and forms. I was playing with sacred geometry.
Rick: Oh, with your hands you were doing it?
Ivan: With my hands, picking up pieces and making something which was—
Rick: You weren’t moving them around with your mind, okay. You were making patterns and things.
Ivan: I was making something geometrical in shape that made me feel all right, protected, and safe, or whatever. I was playing with that while the other kids were playing Tarzan and football.
She said, “What do you think?”
I said, “Can I channel it?”
She said, “Yes, you can. What do you want to do in life?”
I said, “I want to be an artist.”
She said, “That’s the way to channel it.”
So that’s where I went. I became an artist. That became my spiritual search, even though I didn’t realize that while I was searching for external confirmation and confirmation of my idea of what enlightenment is.
Rick: So—
Ivan: I couldn’t find it. So I went into it, and then, at one point, I was painting and studying. I used to go for five days with no food, no drinking—maybe drinking water, but no food and no sleep—just painting, painting, and being so frustrated and so angry.
I would rip up my canvases in my studio. I would do crazy stuff. I would even take the canvas outside, and someone might pass by and say, “Wow, what a gorgeous work.” I would take it out and burn it.
Rick: Wow.
Ivan: I was painting and painting. I would have those periods almost every month, a couple of times: five, six, or seven days with no food and no sleep, just going through it until I knocked myself down and slept.
At one point, I said to my beloved Lana, “I’m going—I don’t know, I might be ten days now. I’m going totally fasting for 23 days, but I’m not going to sleep for ten days. I’m going to paint.”
On the fifth day, I was painting. I was throwing raw oil onto the canvas, and then I just fell. I fell unconscious, and I regained consciousness immediately. I realized I was on the floor and wasn’t able to move. I wasn’t even able to think where I was. I was just aware that I was.
It was just a blank piece of canvas, just being aware that I am.
Instantaneous Awareness of Being
It happened instantaneously. It wasn’t as if I was thinking, “Oh, this is whatever the spiritual epiphany that people talk about. This is the realization. This is the final end of my search.” It was just a blank piece of canvas, just being aware that I am.
It happened instantaneously. It wasn’t as if I was thinking, “Oh, this is whatever the spiritual epiphany that people talk about. This is the realization. This is the final end of my search.” It was just a blank piece of canvas, just being aware that I am.
I couldn’t even say that I was blissful. There was no bliss there. There was nothing—nothing at all—just blank. It was like a popcorn popping. I fell down, could not move, left consciousness, regained consciousness again, and that was it.
I stayed there, I don’t know for how long. Later on, people said that someone had tried to knock on my studio door. My beloved Lana tried to call me, but people said that I had been there for three to five days. I’m not sure.
Anyway, when I started thinking, the thought came on its own after three, four, or five days of just being blank—not even sleeping or blinking. I was just frozen.
Then the thought came and ran through my mind, and I could just see the thought running through. The thought said, “You are a failure.”
For the first time in my life, I was using my mind. I had the ability to use my mind, and I used my mind. I invited the thought into the collection of all the other thoughts, which are not mine; they’re borrowed. All our thoughts are borrowed, by the way.
So I used one thought, or other thoughts, and collected and collected some kind of idea about what I was going through and what was happening, why the thought came and left, and what that thought meant.
It meant an invitation. The idea was an invitation, inviting me to go again into that dualistic aspect of reality, where I would try to find someone who never fails and could not fail, but find the consequence of failing all the time.
It sounds like causes and consequences. The mind is all about causes and consequences. But I was there not choosing, but using something just to contemplate, designate, and create something for myself.
From that point—from that point—I woke up, got up, collected myself, went home, and said to Lana, “I have been unconscious.” She couldn’t understand. I said, “I have been unconscious for some time, you see, but everything is fine.”
That was the event, if I call it an event. Nothing happens, really. Nothing at all. It’s just a blank piece of paper, just nothingness.
But something changed afterward: the perception of self, the perception of the reality I live in, the definition of self, and the definition of reality. It became more fluid, not strict and rigid.
When you define something, you try to protect that definition. You try to save that definition, invest in that definition, and sell that definition to someone else so that someone else might adore you. Then you can feel okay; your ego can feel blissful—not that kind of bliss.
Rick: So let me ask you a couple of questions about that. You’re about 42 years old, and you were pushing and pushing and pushing in terms of your art. You’d go days on end without sleeping or eating, just drinking water. I’m just reiterating what you said, to make sure I got it straight. Then, at a certain point, you had this collapse; it was some kind of breakthrough. You sat there for four or five days with no thoughts in your head, not sleeping, just sitting like a stone, and then you finally began to engage in activity again. Is that a quick synopsis of what you just said?
Ivan: That’s right.
Rick: Yeah.
Ivan: I mean, there’s more to it, which, even if I want to write a book about it—it’s not going to fit in a hundred books. Because from the nothing, when you—if you experience nothing, I mean, I don’t know whether I experienced nothing. It was just that nothing was happening. If that’s the experience, so be it.
But later on, you know, when you change the perception of self, obviously you change the perception of the reality you live in. Because when you change yourself, reality is changed. Don’t change the world out there; don’t bring peace—change yourself, bring peace to yourself, find the peace within yourself, and the peace is everywhere else.
Don’t change the world out there; don’t bring peace—change yourself, bring peace to yourself, find the peace within yourself, and the peace is everywhere else.
The way you see yourself, you create reality, because reality is a mirror of you, nothing else. A mirror will never, ever blink at you; you have to blink first, and the mirror reacts. That’s how powerful we are, you see. How we define ourselves, we define God, we define existence, we define the wholeness.
Rick: Someone said—I forget who said this—but it’s a lot easier to put shoes on than to pave the world with leather.
Ivan: Yeah, but people—99.99 percent of people—are putting stones in their shoes.
Rick: Yeah, but, you know, in other words, the allegory means that it’s easier to change yourself than to change the world. If you can put shoes on, so to speak, that’s a lot simpler than making the whole world covered with leather. You just change yourself, and then you change the world.
Ivan: Yes. So what happened later was something that I never, ever, ever, ever could think about would come into my mind, and I would choose whether to use that or not.
Rick: And what was that?
Ivan: It’s whatever—whatever. It’s not the choice; it’s more multiple, infinite numbers of choices I can choose. I mean, people generally have two choices: left or right, positive or negative. That’s very dualistic. But when you come from the point where things are coming in multiple ways, multidimensionally, and you have an infinite number of choices, which one do you want to choose? It’s not just two; it’s an infinite number. It’s like a spectrum between consciousness and unconsciousness.
Consciousness and unconsciousness are not separate entities; there’s only consciousness. Unconsciousness is a lack of consciousness, the same as darkness is a lack of light. So, in between unconsciousness and consciousness, there is an entire spectrum of possibilities. So the intuitive one will be the one you are more excited about.
Rick: The intuitive one.
Ivan: Exactly. So that’s what changed.
Rick: Yeah.
Ivan: Another thing that changed was the amount of understanding that comes. It’s like a brief instant. You see, it’s more like intuition coming and staying for a while, and the mind forming and wanting to hitchhike the intuition and bring duality into it. You know, this is good, this is not; I don’t believe that; I believe that this is real, this is not real. Those kinds of conflicts inside the mind.
Freedom from Identification with the Mind
But there is that deeper, deeper knowing: I’m not my mind. The mind yields to your consciousness. You see, the whole problem in the world is not what appears outside, in objective reality; it is the attachment to the idea, “I am my mind.”
But there is that deeper, deeper knowing: I’m not my mind. The mind yields to your consciousness. You see, the whole problem in the world is not what appears outside, in objective reality; it is the attachment to the idea, “I am my mind.”
The whole problem in the world is not what appears outside, in objective reality; it is the attachment to the idea, “I am my mind.”
So, from that perspective, the mind is an illusion. You can take its suggestions, ideas, and choices into consideration, but you are the one who is really going to choose. That’s how you use your mind. So, in a way, after that experience, I started using my mind when I needed to designate, create, and communicate. When I didn’t need my mind, I had the ability—which perhaps came from that experience—to switch my mind on and off.
Rick: Okay, let me ask you a few questions about the things you just said. Firstly, when you went into that state for four or five days, were you aware of your surroundings, or were you just sort of in a samadhi state or something where you weren’t even aware of sensory input?
Ivan: I was aware of breathing.
Rick: Okay.
Ivan: I was aware of my blood circulating.
Rick: But you were just sitting there.
Ivan: I was aware of the sound of passing cars in front of my studio.
Rick: Okay.
Ivan: I was aware even of the flipping wings of a fly around. I mean, I was aware of the invitation of a brush to move it around, even that. It’s like a temptation: “Move me. My purpose is to move the color around the canvas. Move me, please.”
It was absolutely real, absolutely attentive, absolutely tranquil, and absolutely inviting to engage in all kinds of phantasmagoric dreams if I wanted. But obviously there was no reason, there was no need, because in that kind of state, you can’t do anything.
Rick: Yeah.
Ivan: It’s not that you cannot do anything; you don’t want to do anything, because it is a state where there is no pressure, there is no anxiety, there is no stress, there are no worries. There is nothing there putting an enormous heaviness on you.
You see, people say, “Love and light.” You say, “What’s the light?” You know, “I’m bringing you light.” Light is not being heavy; it’s being light, not carrying the weight of your thoughts, not being suppressed and compressed by your thinking, which is positive-negative.
If you remove your mind—if you can remove your mind, or something or someone can remove your mind—then you find nothing. And if that’s the place, so be it.
Rick: Okay. So when you first snapped into that state, you basically didn’t have the motivation to paint or talk or eat.
Ivan: No.
Rick: You just sat there.
Ivan: I didn’t have the motivation to wake up; I didn’t have the motivation to close my eyes. It was just like there was no motivation, because it seemed like I didn’t have a mind. But I could not recollect not having a mind, because you can only recollect that when you have a mind.
Rick: Right, yeah.
Ivan: You see what I mean? It’s very dualistic in nature, so I have to be controversial in order for people to understand what I’m talking about.
Rick: Yeah, it’s like you can’t remember sleeping because—
Ivan: I’m going to fail. I tried. And you asked a really tough question, trying to explain the unexplainable, really. How can I do that? How can I explain my subjective reality to you?
Rick: How can anyone? Try explaining red. What does red look like? Well, I don’t know; it looks like red. You can’t explain it.
Ivan: I tried to read my mind.
Rick: Yeah.
And the second question I have is that you were talking about a million choices, and then you would choose just one. It kind of reminded me of an example from physics: If you take a ball and throw it, there are a million, an infinite number, of paths the ball could take, but it takes the path of least action. Given all the forces and influences, it takes the most efficient possible path when you throw it.
So I’m wondering if that would be a good description of your experience, where you have a million possibilities, but if you follow the intuitive choice, it ends up being the most perfect in a way that the individual mind could never have figured out.
Ivan: Nature is balancing itself all the time.
Rick: Right. Nature did it, does it for you.
Ivan: Nature. But what’s nature? Nature is part of existence, so existence is existing in itself and it’s balanced. It does not need to balance itself; it always strives to balance itself. You’re part of nature, so naturally and existentially you are balancing yourself. If you are not balancing yourself, then the balance will balance itself, so you are not necessary in that process at all.
Rick: Okay. And then the third question is, you’re saying something that kind of reminds me of an analogy Ramana Maharshi used about a fan. It’s spinning, and then you turn off the power, but it still spins for a while and gets slower and slower as it winds down.
I’m wondering if you have something like that in your own experience, where this big shift happened and then, since then, there’s been a kind of winding down and a playing out of tendencies, habits, conditioned responses, and so on. They’ve just been sort of winding down over the years since then. Does that make any sense?
Ivan: Can you explain a little bit further what’s behind your thinking?
Rick: Why I’m asking this question?
Ivan: Yeah.
Rick: Yeah. Well, sometimes Ramana and other teachers have used the example that when the individual is kind of the motivating force of action, or thinks that he is, there’s a certain momentum, like a fan spinning because of its motor. And then—
Ivan: I understand that.
Rick: Yeah, and then when enlightenment dawns, that motivation is no longer there, and yet it doesn’t just stop instantly.
Ivan: Okay. Okay.
Rick: It sort of winds down.
Ivan: I see. I see where you’re getting, where you want to go. You see, we have mind; we know the mind, you know, we talk about mind. But we talk about mind as conscious mind, and you see all kinds of books and spiritual movements, motivational speakers, gurus, masters of reality and themselves—they talk about consciousness and conscious mind. Mind and consciousness are diametrically opposite to each other.
Rick: Why don’t you define them both at this point? How do you use those terms?
Ivan: I’m trying my best.
Rick: Okay, yeah.
Ivan: Mind is not. Consciousness is. The mind is not. It is a social product. It is a socially indoctrinated state of being. So your mind is not owned by you; it is owned by society, it is owned by the collective.
The mind is an illusion, a bubble. So the mind cannot exist without energy. It needs energy; it is superficial, it is an illusion, so it needs energy. Wholeness is the energy, the infinite one, energy in itself. Wholeness, oneness, God, existence, the universe—whatever you want to call it, however you want to call it.
Wholeness is expressing itself as it is. Wholeness is wholeness expressing itself through infinite pieces. Every single piece of that wholeness is the wholeness itself, expressing itself through infinite pieces. Every single piece of it is expressing itself infinitely, infinitely, infinitely.
Okay, so how is wholeness expressing itself, and what is wholeness? First, let’s ask the question: What is wholeness? Wholeness is awareness—awareness that wholeness is, awareness that I am, without “I,” just am-ness. Do you get it?
Okay. So wholeness is the wholeness. Awareness is awareness expressing itself as consciousness, because consciousness is the movement, while awareness is the moment. The moment right now is awareness, while the movement of now is consciousness.
The movement happens through experiences in objective and subjective reality. It’s like a wave moving and creating the particle, creating something that is objective, that is informed, that invites the senses, that you can grasp, go through, define, analyze, and see from different perspectives.
You see, that’s what consciousness is. It can examine itself because everything is consciousness. It can examine itself, expand itself, and understand itself from different angles of seeing. So that’s the whole point. Consciousness is the movement; awareness is the moment.
Consciousness is the movement; awareness is the moment.
The mind is an artificial entity created in between awareness and consciousness, using the energy of consciousness. Not using it, because it is stealing it. It is you who are voluntarily giving that energy to the mind by being attached to that artificial creation.
Rick: Do you have a mind?
Ivan: Do I have a mind? I don’t have a mind, but I use my mind.
Rick: Okay, so it’s a tool.
Ivan: It’s a tool. It’s a machine. It’s an organic machine. It is a perfect machine.
Rick: And when you say that society creates the mind or something like that, what if a person lived in a cave and didn’t have any interaction with society? Would they have a mind?
Ivan: Listen, it’s not about the creation of the mind. The mind creates itself as a superficial entity, similar to a reality we all agree to—a reality that is common between us. It’s like society. Society does not exist. Society lives in people’s minds, and thoughts exist as a collective unconsciousness.
So it’s not about society creating the mind. Society is attaching your consciousness to an artificial creation, to the idea of who you are.
A small kid, not having the mind, having consciousness, being receptive and open, goes through experiences, never holding on to the experience, never possessing the experience or defining the experience, but simply going through it. Then society jumps in and says, “Don’t do this. Do that. This is right. This is wrong.”
So consciousness is attaching itself to one aspect of the wholeness, one aspect of duality, and inevitably the other one is rejected. So that is separation. That’s how we create the mind, or society creates the mind.
It’s not like, “Oh, let’s create the mind in the small kid.” It is an unconscious act of kindness, an unconscious act of so-called love. We do that unconsciously, you see. That’s Jesus on the cross saying, “God, forgive them, because those people don’t know what they’re doing.”
Rick: Okay, if I understand you correctly, what you’re saying is that the mind is an innocent tool. I guess we need to have a mind in order to function, but the mind gets conditioned. When you were a little kid and you were healing people, the authorities said, “No, you can’t do that. That’s bad,” and so that left an impression on you.
It’s sort of like society conditions, narrows, limits, and boxes us in as we go along. If that’s a correct response to what you’re saying, then what is the practical takeaway from what you’ve been saying for the past few minutes? If someone’s listening to this, what can they take from what you’ve just said that would help them in some way in their life?
The Existential Question: Who Am I?
Ivan: First of all, you see, we have to raise a question that’s called the existential question. Everyone has to raise that question, because it has existed since the beginning of separation. The question is, “Who am I?”
Rick: Right.
Ivan: Who am I really? That’s the most important question. It’s the same question that no one has ever asked me: “What is meditation?” Just look at the schools of meditation everywhere. Everyone is teaching meditation, and no one has ever asked, “What is meditation? Who am I? What is the mind? What is the question?”
Rick: What do you mean no one ever asked that? Haven’t people been asking that sort of question?
Ivan: Never.
Rick: Really? Never in your experience?
Ivan: What is meditation? Anyway, it doesn’t really matter.
Rick: Yeah.
Ivan: What is the mind? There is no mind, only thoughts. Are thoughts real? No, they are a cause. Then what is the mind beyond thoughts? There is no mind beyond thoughts.
So the mind doesn’t have form. Neither is it a single thought, but rather a constant flow of thoughts. Thoughts don’t have form, but they can create form. Form is unreal, part of the illusion, the same as the mind. Everything that has a form is an illusion.
To be attached to form is to be possessed by the mind and be in separation. So imagine this: Imagine the mind being on one side of a tube. Imagine a hollow tube, or hollow bamboo, with the mind on one side and wholeness on the other side.
They cannot fit together because the mind is nonexistent, while wholeness is existential. Now imagine no-mind. What is no-mind? No thoughts in it. It is a hollow tube. It is the absolute creative, kind, grateful act from wholeness to people, to consciousness, so that consciousness can experience different realities, different densities.
So it is a hollow tube. On one side is your consciousness; on the other side is wholeness. The energy goes smoothly. It goes pulsating, coming and going. It is like breathing.
Imagine society clogging the mind, clogging that no-mind and creating the mind, blocking it, giving ideas, giving definitions, giving beliefs, giving theories, giving hypotheses, giving assumptions, giving all that which is the question mark—giving the question mark, embedding it, stamping it into no-mind. Then the mind becomes totally disconnected. It becomes on one side of polarity, and wholeness is on the other side.
So it’s also like, you know, this town is too small for us. One has to go or one has to die. The mind attempts to deny wholeness and exist in itself, while wholeness is saying, “Oh, this is my lost son. He will come one day when he realizes that it’s time to come home.”
Rick: I’m following you. I hope people listening are following you. If they aren’t, they should submit a question.
Ivan: I’m quite sure you’re following me.
Rick: No, I am. What you’ve been saying for the last couple of minutes reminds me of something in the Yoga Sutra, the second verse. It says, “Yoga is the cessation”—“yoga” meaning union—“of the fluctuations of the mind,” and then it says, “The seer rests in himself,” or in itself.
So you can think of the mind as agitated water, and then the water calms down and settles down. When it’s completely settled, there are no waves anymore. The mind is waves; settled water is no waves.
It sounds to me like what you’re saying is that the mind consists of thoughts, agitation, and a sort of imbalance. If we could come into balance and settle down the agitation to a point of no agitation, then there would be no mind at that point, and we would know the Self, or know reality, or whatever terms you want to use.
Ivan: Okay.
Rick: Go ahead.
Ivan: Yes, yes, yes. Understand this: I’m not against the mind. I’m not against society. I’m not against anything. I’m all for freedom from all mind constructs, from attachment—from all mechanical habits of the mind and its structures.
Rick: Yeah, I gathered that. I didn’t get the impression you were against it.
Ivan: It’s freedom. When you understand what the mind is, then you will have greater freedom. Then you can use the mind or not use the mind. But at the moment, your mind is using you.
You cannot stop your thinking. You cannot do anything about your thinking. You cannot eliminate thoughts. You cannot do anything, and that’s where the frustration is. That’s where the suffering is, because that’s the feeling of being powerless.
You can’t stop anxiety. You cannot stop pain. You cannot stop worrying. You cannot stop fear. How can you do that? But consciousness can go through, and that’s what I’m advising: Go through.
Go through everything you are experiencing, not seeing everything that you are experiencing as real and as you. Everything that passes by is not real, and it is not you. You are the observer of things that are moving, that are transforming, that are moving from one place to another; one thought from positive to negative and negative to positive.
You are just witnessing. You are just moving, and you are not participating. You are not attaching yourself or identifying with it, not identifying with that process.
You are just witnessing. You are not attaching yourself or identifying with the process.
Rick: Yeah, I think that’s the key point right there. You’re not saying there’s anything wrong with the mind, anything wrong with activity, or anything else. You’re just saying there’s something wrong with attachment or identification.
Ivan: That’s right.
Rick: Yeah, we become sort of—when we’re attached and identified, we have blinders on. We lose the forest for the trees, so to speak.
Ivan: Yeah, because people have to remember that they cannot use the mind before they know how to be without the mind.
Rick: Yeah.
Ivan: You see, when someone says to you, “Get lost,” or “Get out of your mind,” it’s not a negative statement. Say thank you to those people. That’s what I’m going to do: I’m going to get out of my mind. Because when I’m out of my mind, there is no anxiety. So what’s wrong with that? Love it.
Rick: I guess it’s a question of how you get out of your mind.
Ivan: It’s just like when I’m talking to you, I’m using my mind. When I don’t talk to you, why should I use my mind? To torture myself with the same thoughts? Thoughts are repetitive. They are moving in a circular way, from positive to negative.
It’s not like jumping from positive to negative. There is an entire pendulum, an entire spectrum. While moving from the positive, you are building the momentum of the negative, and you reach the end of the negative. Then you move to the positive, and it goes like a swing.
You see, that’s what twenty-four hours a day of activity is in your mind. So how do you get out of it? You cannot get rid of it. You cannot do anything to your mind. You can only be a witness to your mind, and through the witnessing, the mind will drop itself.
Rick: Yes.
Ivan: That’s how you become no-mind, with no attempt to get rid of your mind. If you attempt to get rid of the mind, then the mind will really give you a hard time.
Description and direct experience
Rick: Okay, so one thing that occurred to me a lot as I was reading your book is that you were describing things like being a witness to your mind, for instance—that phrase you just used—and it kind of reminded me of a perennial issue that comes up in spiritual circles and in these interviews: Are we taking a description as a prescription?
Let me just give an example to clarify it. Let’s say someone is standing on a mountaintop and shouting out an explanation of the view, what he sees from the mountaintop. People are halfway down the mountain, hearing that explanation, and thinking, “Wow, that sounds really great. That sounds really inspiring.” What they really need is instructions on how to climb from where they are up to where that guy is. Then they will see the same view he sees, and they won’t need his explanation; they’ll have their own view.
But what often happens is that people mistake a description of the view, so to speak, as a prescription for what to do. So a person, let’s say, hears the term “witnessing,” and in a certain state of awareness, witnessing is natural. It’s spontaneous. One is not attached to one’s thoughts or perceptions or overshadowed by them. The clear light of the Self prevails, no matter what you’re engaged in. But if you try to witness, if you make an effort of it, it’s almost like the person halfway down the mountain imagining what the guy who is speaking from the top of the mountain is describing, and maybe even convincing themselves that they’re having the same experience.
But in fact, they’re not having the same experience. It’s an imagination, it’s a mood; it’s not the actual state of being on the mountaintop. So do you get the metaphor, and what do you say to that whole statement?
Ivan: Yeah. You know, this is the natural way of the mind that is trained to submit itself to a higher authority. Whatever that authority is, it could be political or religious: Submit yourself to God, adore God, give yourself to God. You are not; God is. That kind of concept—you can find validity in it, but it’s mainly a mind concept. It is a concept. So anyway…
Rick: Yeah, and a concept of God doesn’t really satisfy any more than a concept of food is going to fill your belly.
Ivan: Yes, of course. Someone from the top yelling at people, “Look what I could do,” is just nothing else than the ego. “Why do you need to declare that? Why do you need to announce that? Why do you need to invite anyone?”
Rick: Well, it’s just an analogy, though, that illustrates a certain point.
Ivan: I’m going somewhere, so there is no need. But even that perception of the guy is very limited, because he is addressing someone and asking, “Experience what I want to experience.” People might be tempted to. They might say, “Okay, but this is really good.” Just a slight, slight urge to get out of your comfort zone is the end result. It’s enlightenment, just a glimpse.
It’s just a matter of process, how it unfolds. It could be a year, it could be 20, it could be a million years. It doesn’t really matter. Time is infinite, and it’s always now. So it’s not the time of past and future, but real time, which is the moment of now.
So anyway, in order to really reach your destination—whatever your destination—desire is good if you have only one desire, which is essential: the desire to be. Every other desire is not to be, and then it’s projection, it’s illusion. You are somewhere else, so desire to be.
But the desire cannot be kept alive in your mind. Otherwise, that desire will be the mind, and the mind will give you the idea of what desire is, what enlightenment is, what being is. But at one point, you will get out of your sleep and realize that you’ve been dreaming, and you will start from the beginning.
So it’s good to have a desire, to have an urge, and to be motivated to push the energy, but you have to give up on pushing. You have to give up on searching. You have to give up on being motivated. Allow the process to unfold.
So you push yourself into the spiritual quest, into the journey, but do not conclude anything along the way, and do not try to ignite that at all. Just remember that you already did intend—that’s the desire. One desire to be is the pure intent to be, not intention. There’s no tension there.
It is still part of the tension. Intent is still part of the tension, but just once, and then you go through. If you repeat the intent, then it becomes intention, and then you are locked in your mind, in your concept of enlightenment.
Then, instead of climbing the mountain and reaching the top, seeing your own perspective, having your own perception, you are going around the mountain believing that you are climbing the mountain.
Rick: Right.
Ivan: Even though it’s a little bit hilly around the mountain and you are climbing, you are going in a circle, and that’s the way of the mind.
Rick: Yeah, okay. So a little while ago, you said that people don’t ask what meditation is, or something like that, and you teach meditation. I’m always interested in practical means for people to experience for themselves—not sort of just entertain themselves with philosophies or notions or concepts, but have it be a genuine experience. So what do you teach, and how is it that—what do you do to help people move from just sort of reading concepts in one of your books to actually living the reality of what those concepts represent?
Ivan: It’s really difficult to define my work, you see, because I don’t teach anything.
Rick: But you have a whole chapter in your book on meditation, so…
Ivan: That’s right, you know. But I’m answering: I don’t teach, but I cannot go away from teaching, because anytime you open your mouth, you teach. You teach either yourself or you teach others. But there is an inner witness who is saying, “I am not a teacher. I’m not my mind, I’m not my body, I’m not my soul. I am not; only the Wholeness is.”
So from the Wholeness perspective, there is no teaching. There is sharing, sharing my own Self. If that’s a teaching, so be it.
Rick: Well, we can say that about anything. I mean, I could ask you what you had for lunch, and you could say, “I don’t eat lunch. I am the pure Self; the body eats.”
Ivan: Yeah, but this is really crucial, because if you see me as a teacher, then you don’t know; I know. You see, I’m giving you my knowledge. But not being a teacher, I’m not giving you my knowledge; I’m giving you my experience. What you’re going to do with that is up to you. You get it?
Rick: Yeah. So how do you give—or how do you—how does… Go ahead. I’m sorry.
Ivan: I don’t talk about meditation. I don’t teach meditation.
Rick: Okay. What happens?
Ivan: What I teach, I teach an obstacle to meditation.
Rick: Which is?
Ivan: Which is the mind.
Rick: You teach that the mind is an obstacle.
Ivan: That’s what I teach.
Rick: Okay.
Ivan: You see, you cannot teach meditation. How can I teach you to be yourself? I cannot do that. I can only guide you so that you can teach yourself how to be yourself.
No, you cannot teach yourself how to be yourself. You can only learn everything that you know about yourself, and then you will be yourself. So I can only guide you in that process, so that you can realize it yourself. And that’s not teaching; that’s just guiding.
But even to guide someone, you cannot guide a blind man to see the sun. You can describe the sun for him, but he’s not going to see it anyway. He’s going to assume what the sun is according to your description.
So it’s not a teaching, it’s a guiding, but it’s not guiding at all. It’s just having fun there, and whoever is hooked to that teaching, whatever that guiding is, fine, good. Someone is going to benefit from it.
Rick: Okay. So…
Ivan: So I don’t teach meditation. What I teach people is how to be absolutely attentive while they are meditating.
Rick: How do you teach that?
Ivan: How do I teach that? I teach you to really accept yourself the way you are. And when you try to accept yourself the way you are, you are meditating.
When you try to accept yourself the way you are, you are meditating.
Rick: So if I were to come to one of your classes, what do you do? What actually happens in those classes?
Ivan: I don’t know what happens. Something happens that even I’m surprised in watching it. You cannot teach masses anything. You can only teach individuals, because with an individual, you can understand the individual, you can penetrate the individual—his soul, his mind, his consciousness. You can see where he is stuck, what kind of obstacles are there, what kind of barriers, what kind of worries, what kind of things are preventing him from being himself.
And then you try everything possible in your power to guide that person, or whatever, teach that person how to be attentive to those moments, not to overpower the consciousness of that person.
And then, inevitably, if you remove the stone preventing the spring from flowing, obviously the spring will flow somewhere else, or it will not flow at all. Remove the stone, and the spring goes. Fresh water fills the ponds.
Rick: So do you do a lot of work with individuals?
Ivan: Yeah, I do lots of work with individuals. You see, when you read all those books, which are transcripts from our meditation classes, lots of people say they have a really hard time understanding them. I mean, they’re not for the popular masses. It’s not for everyone to read about, like, “Let’s explain the now from Eckhart Tolle’s perspective,” and it becomes popular. Everyone is reading Tolle.
You cannot read my books if you have never, ever been in meditation and been stuck to a particular aspect of meditation where you cannot go further. And then you go there, and I can help you with that. I mean, it’s not like I’m helping you from the plane of enlightenment. I’m helping you because I experienced that.
I experienced my mind putting obstacles in the way of my being me, so many times, infinite times. And I always beat myself up. I always felt guilty and tried to find a reason to torture myself through the mind by trust, denial, doubt, acceptance, hate, this and that.
Rick: Even now, or it used to happen?
Ivan: No.
Rick: Not anymore?
Ivan: Yesterday does not exist at all. It’s only in your mind.
Rick: So you don’t get into these self-beating-up phases anymore? You’re just referring to the way you used to be?
Ivan: I don’t know. Maybe I’m beating myself, but I’m not aware of that. What I know is that everything is the way it should be. It’s not according to my idea of how things should be, but according to the feel of it, you know. And the feeling is much closer to now than your thinking.
Rick: That makes sense to me, too. I don’t know—do you think that someone hearing a statement like that, “Everything is as it should be, and the feeling is closer than thinking,” do you think that just hearing a statement like that can help a person begin to see life that way? Or what more can be offered to help a person see and live life that way?
Ivan: You see, every word is a vibration affecting you. Whether the word is coming from the mechanical aspect of your mind or from consciousness using the mind to express it in a very kind and gentle way to enhance and help the person, that’s all. So you can damage the person with the thought, or you can enhance the person with the thought.
But imagine the thought being used in a more meditative way, and I’m passing that little jewel. It’s called mantra, you see. That’s mantra. I’m giving you the seed of wholeness through this, in that word. So it’s not about you analyzing the word, and it’s not about you trying to figure out what he is thinking. It’s about feeling the energy embedded in that thought, feeling the consciousness-embedded intent.
Intent is always good, you see, and then self-realizing it through understanding, but not from your mind—from your heart. So you should feel the person beyond his thought, feel the consciousness beyond the thought, and then inevitable transformation will happen, and transcendence will happen on its own.
Rick: So you’re saying that—I think you’re not saying that you literally give mantras for people to meditate with. You’re saying that everything you say is a mantra.
Ivan: It is a mantra. Why not?
Rick: I think that’s what you’re saying.
Ivan: Everything you say is a mantra, you see. As I said, giving is not an act of kindness but an act of compassion. You are not giving because, “I want to give.” I’m giving because there’s no other way, you see.
When you are loved, what do you do? You just give around, you share with them. It’s not like, “I’m very proud of my love. I’m going to give a certain amount to this person, a certain amount to that.” It’s not exclusive; it is all-inclusive.
When you realize yourself, when you understand yourself, when you know yourself, when you are being yourself, you don’t know how you know, but you know that you know. Then you share it compassionately with everyone, with existence.
I used to teach my kid that when approaching a tree and picking up a leaf, you should say thank you before picking the leaf. Do not say sorry, because sorry is very apologetic, and then it’s the mind. Say thank you, you see, because there is a reason why you’re picking it. You recognize yourself in that leaf, and you are saying, “Thank you. Thank you for that recognition.”
So when you recognize yourself in everything you do, everything you are, everything you experience, what’s left? Nothing but you. You recognize yourself, and when you recognize yourself, when you see yourself—the way a kid sees himself in the mirror—he smiles. It’s very joyful: “Whoa, Harvey, hello!” That kind of thing. “Yeah, I recognize myself. I’m very happy because I am the one, because there is only one.”
Rick: Yeah, the question is how to do that. You say, when you…
Ivan: But there’s no—listen, it’s not about how to do that. What is stopping the process of realizing that you are already that?
Rick: Yeah, you tell me.
Ivan: Not how, because when you say how, there is a distance.
Rick: What is?
How is the problem. You know, “How do I do the meditation?” It’s not how to do the meditation; it’s what is meditation? When you understand meditation, meditation is everyday living with consciousness. That’s what meditation is: being aware in every aspect of your life.
Ivan: How is the problem. You know, “How do I do the meditation?” It’s not how to do the meditation; it’s what is meditation? When you understand meditation, meditation is everyday living with consciousness. That’s what meditation is: being aware in every aspect of your life.
It’s not object-related. It’s not like, “I’m going to meditate on this. I’m going to meditate about…” It’s not about that. It’s not a distance; it’s as close as you can get. It is realizing that you are the source of all that is, and you are the source of all that isn’t.
You are fully, fully present in the moment, and when you are fully present in the moment, there is no need to go anywhere else. Just stay in that moment, you see. Then everything that comes from that moment will come, using certain tools to designate, create, and accommodate someone if there is a need.
That’s the mind as a tool between all other realities and this reality. The mind is a tool, but the mind has to be no-mind in order to be used as a mind. Consciousness has to be present.
Rick: So, no…
Ivan: Without consciousness, everything is futile. Everything is going to be totally robot-like without consciousness. That’s the reason why certain forces are not allowing people to wake up, but people are waking up. People are being more and more themselves because they realize what the obstacle is to not being themselves.
They realize the lies, cheats, and conspiracies—not against them, not against the world or God or whatever, but against their consciousness—and they start waking up. Waking up means removing ignorance, removing something that is stopping you from realizing that you are the one with full power. You are the consciousness, and you are the awareness.
✨ Serving the evolution of consciousness
Rick: So, in the bio that I read, you said that authentic rooting in the unknown provides you with the insight and ability to be of great service to the evolution of consciousness in these most transformative of times. I agree that these are transformative times. I think there’s a lot of change happening, and it’s actually for good.
Ivan: Every time is transformational, but this is a more intense one.
Rick: This is accelerating.
Ivan: It’s like putting things in the right perspective.
Rick: Yeah. So how is it that you are of great service? How do you serve? What do you actually do? Presumably, there are some people who have been interacting with you for years, maybe. If I were to talk to one of those people and ask them, “What is it that Ivan does that you find of value? Why have you been going back to him for years? How is he serving your transformation?” What do you think those people would say to me?
Ivan: I would say, “First of all, I didn’t write that.”
Rick: Oh, somebody else wrote it.
Ivan: “I will not say I’m serving, because to serve someone is to be less than the one you are serving.” It’s not about that. It’s more about being pivotal in the process of removing the final shadow from the Earth that has been in existence for so many, so many, so many years.
Rick: Long time.
Ivan: It’s just time to really say, “Enough is enough.” We are moving into another layer of existence, much more subtle, much more… Because human consciousness evolved—not from the primitive to the advanced, but from not knowing to more knowing, or forgetting the knowledge and remembering. That kind of thing.
Everything moves in a way. Even the previous civilization used to be in a state of tranquility, while someone might come with some other polluted mind and pollute everything else, and it degrades and destroys itself. But there is always that kind of transformational aspect to it.
So we are at the point where either we will totally collapse as Earth, or we are going to evolve into another parallel reality where everything will be all right. But all that depends on the individuals.
It’s a time when the person inside consciousness is deciding whether to be attached to the mind or whether to be detached from the mind. That’s the battle between evil and good—you know, dragon and Russian dragon and whatever, the eagle and the dragon. So that’s the fight.
We are going to choose. Everyone has to choose, and already I see people choosing. Even elections are designed in a way that you can choose whether to have cholera or whether you have cancer. Everywhere around the world, there is no real choice. The choice is always one-sided.
But individually, whether you are going to accept the reality that someone is imposing on you, or whether you will create the reality you want to live in—that is the choice. When you want to live in that reality, obviously you are creating a parallel reality and going forward. Everyone who feels that’s the reality they want, or would like, to live in is going to join in formulating and manifesting that reality as a parallel reality somewhere that life will continue on.
Rick: So, you know, you’re my 400th interview. If I were to ask all the 400 people I’ve interviewed about this idea of a big transformation taking place in the world, probably almost all of them would say, “Yeah, I think it’s really happening.”
If I were to ask them, “How do you feel like you’re contributing to it? You’re an instrument—there are many, many different instruments, but you’re one instrument. What is your particular function as an instrument in helping bring about this transformation on individual and collective levels?” most of them would probably have some sort of answer.
So if I were to ask you that question—I’m asking you now—what would be your answer?
Ivan: My answer is, “What’s my contribution?” Everyone is contributing. Even a small kid playing with stones at the lake, throwing a stone in the lake, is affecting the entire universe.
Rick: Yeah, and people dropping bombs on Syria are having an effect too, but that’s not necessarily the effect we want.
Ivan: You know, you’re right, because duality is not in conflict; they are complementary. Whatever is happening that is negative in the world is not really negative. It is the perception of negative, but it is helping someone else to get out of prison.
My contribution? I don’t have an idea of any contribution. I’m contributing by being myself and having an urge to share what I know. I don’t know anything, but I know that I am, and I share whatever comes along, whatever pops in, because something will always pop in.
Nothing can pop out, because when something pops out, it becomes different. There is a distance; it’s called separation. Popping in—that’s what the process is.
If I help—I mean, that’s the idea behind it, which is not my idea—but let’s contemplate that idea: If I change one person’s perception of himself, it’s going to influence his immediate surroundings, and then those influences will spread. It’s like a wave when you throw a stone, like a little kid, you see. That kind of effect goes around the Earth.
I’m still receiving so many letters and emails, daily, people thanking me because I said something along the way. We were chit-chatting about something which, for me, was okay, and that person says, “Thank you. You said something that changed my life.” I was not intending to change it, but you know, it is the idea in people’s minds—whether I hold the knowledge or not, whether someone holds the knowledge or not.
Rick: So you’re an artist. Do you still do art?
Ivan: I’m not an artist; I just do art.
Rick: Okay, so you do art, and you’re making yantras or something, aren’t you?
Ivan: Yeah, it’s my love.
Rick: Explain what a yantra is.
Ivan: Yantra is a device, a machine, a piece of machinery, a portal to a higher level of consciousness. I mean, there is no higher and there is no lower, but there is more and more and more consciousness. That’s the idea behind higher consciousness: more and more, because everything is moving to be more and more and more and more. That’s infinity expanding in itself, infinitely.
Yantra, Bindu, and the Center of Awareness
So yantra serves as a machine because it contains the seed in its center, and the seed is the dot. The dot is consciousness, and if you look at the dot, then you are looking at yourself. All the other forms in that yantra are helping you to move your attention into the center, where the dot is, called bindu, called sperm, called the point, the middle point.
The trouble between the observer and what is being observed is called witnessing. You are witnessing yourself. It’s the tool to really reunite with your consciousness on a very, very existential level.
Rick: And so you create these yantras. I guess some people buy them, and some people might just look at pictures of them on your website or something. How would a person use a yantra as a tool to bring about some kind of effect?
Ivan: Just look at the center.
Rick: Just looking at it—for five minutes, an hour, whatever?
Ivan: Ten minutes, as long as you can stand. I mean, there is no pattern. There’s no pattern in how you are going to meditate and what kind of meditation you apply in your life. Everything can be used as meditation. Washing dishes can be meditation, walking can be meditation, and just talking can be meditation.
Everything can be used as meditation if you include the observer, if you include the witness, if you include yourself in that process. But 99.99 percent of people are locked in their thinking, not including themselves in that process—thinking about this, thinking about that, always going into the future and the past.
To be present in the moment is to include yourself. You are aware that you are. You are aware of someone else, you are aware of the object, you are aware of this and that, but you are at the same time aware that you are. That’s the process; that’s the meditation.
Everything can be used as meditation if you include the observer, if you include the witness, if you include yourself in that process.
So it’s not about closing your eyes. Yes, it can help you to go deeper into meditation, but with open eyes, walking, talking—even this is meditation, you see, because there is just the aspect of being there. We are not collecting and hoarding anything; we are just moving, we are experiencing.
So when you look at a dot—only the dot—and look at it for ten minutes, you are not engaged in anything outside. You are not engaged in your mind, within your mind. Your mind is focused on one dot, and your awareness is looking at the dot, meaning looking at the mind, because the mind is looking at the dot. Now you are looking, including yourself. You are looking at the dot by looking at the mind.
After ten minutes, you close your eyes. You are not concerned about peripheral vision. It’s going to remember everything: every single line, every single pointer, every single color. Colors bring feelings, you see, while lines are very conceptual. It’s like working on images.
So when you close your eyes after ten minutes, what do you see? You see the image—the yantra—embedded in the blackness of your mind, and you look at it. Now this is the first glimpse of you looking at the bloody mind, and you don’t have any clue what you are looking at. You just see the pressure moving and running.
All those lines and all those colors are melting and moving. It depends on what kind of yantra it is: spinning this way, spinning that way, contracting. It’s just moving in your mind in one line. Then you are there, present, looking at that movement, and then it just disappears.
What you are left with is the presence of being yourself. You are just aware that you are in that blackness, in that nothingness. Nothing else exists, and you can stay there forever if you want.
Now, maybe the mind might invite you and say, “That’s it. Bullshit. Come out.”
Rick: Time for lunch.
Ivan: Time to go on, time to engage in this reality. We have so many things to accomplish. You are just wasting your time here.
Rick: That’s an interesting description that you just gave. It reminds me of something in Kashmir Shaivism. I forget the name of the scripture—it’s complicated—but there’s this thing where it itemizes 112 ways to transcend, and I bet I wouldn’t be surprised if yantras were one of them.
The basic idea with sound, for instance, is that you can take a sound, start with an audible sound, have it go quieter, quieter, quieter, quieter, and then, just on the thought level, it disappears altogether and you’ve transcended.
But what you just described is the very same process with a visual thing. You start with your eyes open, staring at the dot. After ten minutes, you close your eyes, and you still see it. Then it becomes more and more and more subtle, disappears, and you’re left with the Self. Nice.
Ivan: That’s right. Yantra is based on sacred geometry principles. There are five archetypal shapes there: the dot, the line, the triangle, the circle, and the square. All other geometrical forms are formed from those five basic principles, linked with the five aspects of humans, five stars, five aspects of stars.
Five is really the number that is almost at the end of the cycle. That’s called the cycle, where the three and three are uniting in six, and six is the flower of life. Three is the male aspect; another three is the female aspect. They reunite together when two triangles come together—blue and red together—in a hermaphrodite state: the merkaba and all of those things. That’s the number six.
So five is the final moment before the melting. It’s like a sexual act where the first spark of light will be born. It’s like a sperm and an egg meeting and creating another form, another extension. Two becomes the third, which multiplies into the many. That’s how your body was born.
Rick: Yeah.
Ivan: So depending on the yantra, depending on what kind of image will be there, that image might calm you or really make you dizzy, make you afraid, or whatever. I’m allowing people to choose intuitively what they feel safe with.
There are certain images that, if I present them as yantras and give them to people and say, “Meditate on that,” might really give them nightmares, you see. Try to watch yourself in the mirror—your face with a candle on the side—and see what happens. Some people got really crazy.
Rick: It gets all weird and distorted.
Ivan: Some people got schizophrenic because the face is changing. So imagine the reality and the signs and forms we all are faced with that we have to digest. Imagine the amount of information we have to process on TV channels, where those destructive yantras are bombarding us and you are watching and being hypnotized, and then becoming zombies, worker-warriors, and slaves.
That’s why the yantras are there—as an aspect, an attempt, or a tool for people to reunite with themselves if they want to or if they have the urge to. It’s a counteractment to those who are putting up signs saying, “Don’t do this, do that,” controlling thoughts, controlling the body, controlling your freedom, and so on. This is my contribution as well, you see. I have some contribution.
Rick: Yeah, there you go.
Ivan: In a way, I don’t know. It’s been a meditation practice forever, but no one ever talked about it. I used to meditate on yantras when I was a ten-year-old kid. I mean, I would draw the yantra, draw the triangle and the dot in the middle, and I would hold the paper while the math teacher was talking about equations. I would watch the dot in the middle and go into my tranquil state of not being, not listening to what she was talking about, that kind of thing.
So, inevitably, I had to present this as my contribution to yantra meditation.
Rick: Yeah, amongst all other things.
That’s great. Just in case people don’t know it, it’s an ancient traditional thing that goes back thousands of years. You can find it in the art of Vedic India and things like that, carved in stones and whatnot. So, are you saying that different yantras have different effects on different people? Is that what you were just saying?
Ivan: That’s right. The line can affect you tremendously. It can bring fear. Just draw a black line on the pavement and see what happens when people pass by and see that line on the pavement, drawn with black chalk, and see what happens.
Some people will pass. Those who notice it, you will see the result. It might be, “Oh, I recognize something ancient in me—maybe a snake, maybe a stick, maybe a laser light, maybe a line of laser.” That kind of shock is there. It’s ancient; it is archetypal, you see. So it’s affecting us in so many ways.
The triangle is affecting us at the moment because the triangle, when you’re driving through the streets, is saying, “Stop!” Warning, danger, some kind of danger, you see. There are some things you have to do; you have to make an effort really to save yourself, because driving becomes an issue of safety, not actually an issue of pleasure.
It becomes like, “I have to fight now to come to my destination, and I have to be warned what to do.” It’s like a society controlling you in a way, subconsciously controlling your mind.
Rick: Well, if we didn’t have stop signs and stoplights and things like that, we’d—
Ivan: Well, of course we’d all be crashing into each other. Of course, but I’m just explaining the way in which it is used to control. I’m not saying it’s good or bad, but it is the fact that it is controlling, while you can use the same triangle to enhance yourself, enlighten yourself, you see—not be controlled in any way.
I mean, it is good because so many crashes will happen; people are unconscious. Okay, but you can use it.
Rick: Well, this brings up an interesting point, which is that perhaps there can be freedom within constraints. In other words, taking traffic as an example, there has to be control, or else there would be chaos and there would be people—
Ivan: You see, I am absolutely thrilled that Donald Trump is the president. You know why?
Rick: Why?
Ivan: Because it’s not that I love him and support him in any way. His actions and his thoughts and his selfish acts are just all about him. It’s all about him, and he can ignite consciousness and awaken people around the world.
Rick: Yeah, I’ve heard people say that. It’s kind of having that effect. All kinds of people who are complacent are getting out in the streets and holding signs.
Ivan: Exactly. When someone comes to you and slaps you in the face, what are you going to do?
Rick: I don’t know. I’d have to see what I would do at the time, but I wouldn’t just say, “Slap me again.” You’d react.
Ivan: But if you are conscious enough and say, “Thank you for slapping me. I wanted to slap myself for a long, long time. Thank you. I’m really grateful that you’re slapping me,” then absolutely transformation will happen inside of you.
Usually, the reaction will be either hitting back or arguing or suing or going into the process or whatever.
Rick: Maybe that’s why Jesus said, “Turn the other cheek.”
Ivan: Turn the other cheek. I mean, that’s the declaration by Jesus saying, “I’m not my body. You can hit my body as much as you want; you can torture my body. I’m not my body.” You see, that kind of idea is behind that cheek.
But interpret it however you want to interpret it, because you have your own mind thinking you have unique thinking. You know, that’s the idea behind everyone, every person in the world: “My thinking is very unique. My thoughts are very unique. I created the thought.” But actually, thoughts cannot be created. Thoughts cannot really come up. You cannot invite them, you see. They are just randomly popping, randomly popping. They are popping either from intention or out of intention, either being used by your mind or using your mind by being consciousness.
Rick: I was reading your… Oh, let me think. Just one more thing about yantras before we move on from that. So I think you’re saying that a yantra is not something that has any intellectual meaning. It’s not something to be understood or analyzed or written about in terms of an explanation, but it has more of a vibrational significance, just like a mantra does. I mean, a mantra isn’t really supposed to have a specific meaning, but as a sound, it has a certain influence. Would you say the same of yantras?
Ivan: Yeah. Yeah, mantra is similar to yantra.
Rick: Right.
Ivan: One is the sound.
Rick: One is a sound, one is a visual.
Ivan: A visual. So you will understand the yantra when I explain what mantra is. Mantra is a trick, simply a trick. The master, the guru, is in relation to you, but in order to be in relation to you, he has to be in relation to himself. There is no relationship, there is no ship traveling between master and student; there is a relation. So the master recognizes itself in the disciple.
Anyway, understanding the moment, building the moment, building the fire, building the temperature—the master is building, understanding, reacting, influencing, moving energy, triggering, challenging, removing. All kinds of things are happening there. It’s a huge, big relationship, while from the perspective of the master, it is a relation. I’m helping myself to be myself through that person, in a way.
So at one point there will be an absolute need to push the person into the abyss and say, “Now you realize.” And that’s the mantra: giving and whispering the mantra, whispering something that is absolutely significant for that person, just individual. If I say that mantra to someone else, that person might be damaged or might not really be able to receive it. It’s just like a push. It’s a spice that makes the food taste good.
But the problem is that those who didn’t understand the point of mantra become obsessed with the idea of practicing mantra, and the mantra becomes subjective and repetitive. So you are repeating, “Mantra, mantra, mantra, mantra, mantra, mantra, mantra, mantra, mantra, mantra,” until you hypnotize your mind into thinking that you are enlightened or that you are on a spiritual journey. But it’s not; it’s just repetitive, very boring mind exercise.
Rick: It would be, yeah.
Ivan: I say the yantra is the same. You just sit, stay there, and that’s it.
Mantra and Yantra as Vehicles to Self-Realization
Rick: Yeah, I think a yantra or a mantra is like a boat. You’re crossing a river in a boat, and the idea is not to always stay in the boat; it’s to get to the other side of the river and then get out of the boat. So a mantra fades away, disappears, and the Self is realized. Or a yantra, like you were saying, fades away, disappears, and the Self is realized. It’s just a different channel for the same thing.
Ivan: That’s right. I love certain sects in India where they don’t have statues of God or Buddha or whatever. They will build one when they are having a festivity, when they want to celebrate. For three days they will build a statue of Buddha, light a fire, adore it, kiss it, polish it, bring food, and celebrate.
Rick: Yeah.
Ivan: And then after three days, the monsoon will come and wash those little monuments away. It comes and goes, you know; it’s very transitional.
Rick: Like the Tibetan sand paintings. Similar idea.
Ivan: Yes, sand paintings, and the same with yantra. You can draw your yantra. That’s why I was drawn into making yantras, even though I didn’t realize that I was drawing yantras. It was my way of escaping from consensus reality, in a way that was an act of rebellion.
When I was a kid, while everyone was studying and playing football and basketball, I was drawing something on the street and being called a weirdo. I’m very glad that I’ve been called a weirdo; otherwise, I would have rebelled more.
Rick: Yeah, it’s good to be a weirdo. Sometimes my wife says to me, “Nobody does that,” when I do something, and I say, “That’s why I do it.” I don’t want to do what everybody else does.
The middle point
So you wrote a book called The Middle Point. I’ve been reading that. What is The Middle Point?
Ivan: It’s you.
Rick: Oh, yeah. You wrote a book about me? Oh, thank you.
Ivan: It’s you. It’s you in the middle. The middle point: you are the point, and you are always in the middle, but you are not aware of it. Bring awareness to yourself, then you will be in the middle. You will be the now, you see, and you will be the point.
Because you see, Copernicus said that Earth is not the center of the universe; it is the sun, and he was persecuted. What I’m going to say is that it’s not the sun. There is nothing out there. You are the center of the universe. It’s all about you; you are the oneness.
I mean, you can think that way and then be egotistic and think that you are Donald Trump, okay? Or you can use that and be all right with that, like God being almighty but not using his power, just enjoying himself in the creation creating itself.
God is not creating the world; creation is creating itself. God is just aware that God is. Awareness is. That’s all, you see.
So when you are aware and I am aware, what’s the difference between me and you? There is no difference. There is just one. You are aware; I am aware. Aware of what? Of nothing. I am aware of nothing as well, so it’s awareness.
So when you are aware and I am aware, what’s the difference between me and you? There is no difference. There is just one. You are aware; I am aware. Aware of what? Of nothing. I am aware of nothing as well, so it’s awareness.
In that nothingness, you are present. That’s what awareness is. There are no objects or other things that you can be witnessing, being aware of, or being conscious of. It’s just you. So you are the center of the universe.
You are the center of the universe.
There is nothing out there; it’s just illusion, a mirage, coming and going, moving and transforming. You are there, present and witnessing. Your witness and my witness are the same witness. We express the witness through the mind differently; that’s the differentiation, that’s the fragmentation, the augmentations. But on the existential level, you and I are not different. There is no difference. You are me; I am you.
Rick: Light that is one, though the lamps be many.
Ivan: Exactly. It’s consciousness, it’s the movement, it’s the wave, nothing else. Waves are the same waves.
Creation, the universe, and the present moment
Rick: Yeah, so I actually copied and pasted all the little chapter headings from your book, and all the little section headings, as main points. There are many, many things we could talk about here, but what comes to your mind? Is there anything else that you’d like to talk about in this interview that you think would be interesting for people, or that’s interesting for you, something that really inspires you and that you want to discuss a little bit?
Ivan: Not that I want to discuss. I don’t want to discuss anything. You just ask me a question and I answer.
Rick: So I say, is there anything I’m missing here?
Ivan: It is difficult, it is difficult to ignite something and say, “This is really important for me,” because if I want to choose something that is really important, how do I choose among infinite possibilities what’s so important? Maybe what I’m more excited about, you see.
I’m excited about talking about what I’m talking about, so let’s just talk and see what happens. It could be enlightening; it could be just nonsense. It doesn’t really matter. So…
Rick: That’s good. That’s an interesting… Go ahead, I’m sorry, continue.
Ivan: Yeah, yeah, tell me.
Rick: What were you going to say?
Ivan: You said that is something you want me to finish.
Rick: Oh, so that was an interesting answer in itself, because what you’re saying, I think, is that you, in a way, go with the flow. You respond to the impetus or to the impulse, or to the catalyst. If there is no impulse, then why respond?
So you bring out whatever is drawn from you, kind of like a reservoir. A reservoir just sits there, and the water doesn’t flow unless somebody puts a pipe up to it.
Ivan: Exactly.
Rick: And then, depending upon the size of the pipe and the kind of pipe and so on, the water flows in different amounts.
Ivan: Just a couple of weeks ago, I was sitting and enjoying. Enjoyment is all that is, you know. You’re not driving your car; you’re enjoying your car. You’re not writing a letter; you’re enjoying the process of writing a letter. It’s all about enjoyment. This life is enjoyment.
You can make it hell when you use your mind, but when you’re out of your mind, there is just enjoyment. Someone came and said, “I’ve been watching you for 15 minutes. Are you alive?”
Rick: Were you just sitting on a park bench or something?
Ivan: “Are you a sculpture? Are you pretending to be someone like, you know, whatever, on the street—entertainment, like a frozen person?”
Rick: Right, they have that. That’s a fad these days.
Ivan: “I don’t have that trick,” I said. “Wow, that’s crazy. Yes, I’m dead.”
Anyway, in 2005, I think, I published the book Create Yourself, Forsake Your Geometry. Right now we’ve changed the title to Create Yourself, because you cannot create yourself. But anyway, that’s the title from 17 years ago, or more than that. I’m not sure. But anyway, it doesn’t matter.
Banyan Books, which is the biggest spiritual bookstore in Vancouver, British Columbia, organized an event in a public library. They booked a small room that could fit five, six, or seven people, thinking, “Okay, he’s known; he wrote a little book, a very cute book.”
People started coming and coming and coming, and they had to move to a bigger room, and a bigger room, until they reached whatever the biggest room they had. Two hundred people came.
I was almost frozen. I didn’t know what to do. One thing is to talk to an individual, another is to talk to 10 people, and another is to talk to 200 people. I mean, I hadn’t prepared myself, but it’s like being nervous before the act.
My son was very small then, my son Kai. He came to me and said, “Dad, what’s happening?” I said, “Kai, I think there is anxiety there, but it’s not bad and it’s not good. It’s just there. It’s a mechanism, a survival mechanism. I mean, it’s nature. I cannot fight my nature, but it’s there.”
So I didn’t know what to do. “Kai, 200 people came. I was expecting two, three, or four at least, but 200. I don’t know where to start, Kai.”
And you know what he did? Say it to me.
Rick: What?
Ivan: He said, “Start from the beginning, Dad.”
Rick: Very good.
Ivan: I said, “Wow, thank you very much, son. I really appreciate it. You’re my great teacher. Thank you. I’m going to start from the beginning.” So, I’m going to start from the beginning about what I want to discuss. It’s not about wanting; it just came out of nowhere.
It’s about Big Bang theory, which, when you examine it, is the theory of an explosion—a violent and destructive shattering, a blast, a boom. The theory of explosion is the theory of the beginning of who we are, the beginning of life, the beginning of creation, existence itself.
So, if you can pay real attention to what I’m going to point out here, the theory cannot exist in people’s minds without another theory that the universe will explode. But that explosion will be an implosion in their description. So: explosion, implosion. What’s happening in between those two explosions? Disturbance, chaos.
That’s why there is that idea of order out of chaos, like a dictatorial, Illuminati mindset: “Let’s create order now.” It’s not because the universe is in disorder, but because the mind is in disorder—the mind accepting the idea that the universe was born out of an explosion and is going to die from an explosion.
What’s in between is another set of anxiety. When you compare that to your life, you were born anxious, you’re going to die anxious, and in between, you are anxious. You see? We are trying to understand why we are anxious. We are trying to get rid of anxiety, pressure, stress, problems, difficulties, unfairness, violence, injustice, terrorism, and this and that. We are fighting to create peace.
The peace is already here.
The peace is already here. Remove the concept, remove the idea, of the universe being born out of an explosion. And there is another confirmation from the religious point of view that the universe was born out of, “Let there be light.”
Rick: Let there be light.
Ivan: Let there be light.
Rick: Let there be light.
Ivan: So it’s another explosion, stellar fireworks, and the universe was born, and the darkness performed, and all of that. It’s a story of duality. That’s the main reason why we are so disconnected from who we are.
It is deeply engraved in our—not subconsciousness, but unconsciousness—and it operates there. It is suppressed deep down through indoctrination, through repetition, through introduction, through talk, talk, talk, talk, talk, until you form the mind. You see? So this is the idea.
So how do you get rid of this idea? You cannot get rid of an idea. You can only witness the mind, and the idea will be dropped.
When you compare it to your life, you are born, you die. What’s after that? We don’t know. You are born from nothing; you die to nothing. But nothing, from the perspective of the Big Bang, is very fearful, and there is nothing, really. There is no life after that. There is just oblivion. It’s just like nothing.
But it’s not, because nothing is the whole. Everything that is cannot exist without nothing. Everything that exists cannot exist without nothing. Nothing is the cause of all of that, and nothing equals awareness—awareness that I am.
So the story is very much about destruction and violence, and the story about our separation from consciousness. It is the story of our attachment to duality, our attachment to the socially indoctrinated, illusionary mind.
And you know what? There is something else more stupid than that. It is the confirmation of that dualistic approach and the imprisonment of human consciousness into the reality of consensus. That’s the stupidity that, according to certain scientific research—and that’s been introduced into the school system now, embedded into the school system like Newton’s laws or Aristotelian laws—all of those laws are indoctrinating us into believing that separation is real.
No, it’s not. It’s an illusion. It’s you being attached to something that is not.
According to their research and conclusion, the universe is approximately 13.7, 13.8, 13.9, whatever, billion years old. You know that fact. But the problem is, if it becomes a fact, then it becomes…
Rick: It’s a theory. They don’t know for sure.
Ivan: Even if it’s a theory, it becomes… But how did they conduct that system of investigation? How did they study material resources in order to establish that fact? You know, the universe is infinite. Infinite is infinite, expressing itself in infinite ways and in infinite directions, always right now, infinitely. So how could they know?
That kind of indoctrination—when you really deny it, when you remove your attachment to your knowledge, when you remove your attachment to your thinking—then you will come to know. But that knowing will not be mathematical, and you cannot measure that knowing. That knowing will be self-evident: that you are the way you are. You’ll see.
Rick: Okay, there’s a lot in what you just said. I got an email from a friend of mine yesterday who has a PhD in physics, which is somewhat related to what you were just saying. He said:
I believe that matter acts according to the second law of thermodynamics and decreases order over time, increasing entropy.
That’s what the second law of thermodynamics means.
However, I think there is a mirror law for consciousness that acts in reverse, a law of “syntropy,” as I like to call it, opposing the law of entropy. Consciousness naturally and effortlessly increases order. Matter naturally and effortlessly decreases order. The higher the consciousness—individual, planet, galaxy, universe—the more the law of “syntropy,” or order, prevails over the law of entropy, or disorder.
Anyway, what do you think about that?
Ivan: The universe did not explode 13.8 billion years ago, and it is not going to implode in some distant future. The explosion and the implosion are happening right now. They are happening in this moment.
Rick: Both can be true.
Ivan: The universe is absolutely incredibly happening right now. But the point is: are you aware? Can you see? Can you know it?
The universe is expanding and contracting all the time, in this moment, right now. It is breathing up and down. Just study ancient writings and you will see, for example, that Brahma has three aspects, and Brahma is breathing in and breathing out. One is creating, another one is destroying, while the one in the middle—the Holy Trinity—is maintaining. Meaning, there is yin and there is yang, and there is you maintaining. That’s what the triangle is.
So the birth of the universe is still happening right now, and the death of the universe is still happening right now. But scientists cannot comprehend that at the moment because they are locked into a certain idea of how things function.
For example, I read this morning that 30 scientists, including that scientist from London—
Rick: Stephen Hawking.
Ivan: Stephen Hawking—wrote a letter—
Rick: Steven Hawking.
Ivan: Yeah, that condemned the idea that the universe is not according to certain standards and principles they are fighting for and trying to prove for ages. I mean, someone is really trying to knock them down and say, “Guys, expand. Include something else. This is not the way the universe works.”
But it is the same as with one-pointed, blinded people who are investing so much into their theory that someone tries to destroy their theory. What are you going to do naturally? You are going to say, “Get lost. Keep me here.” That’s why there is a fight.
So existence is expressing itself as life through explosion and imploding life back to existence right now. That’s what life is. So the universe was not born a long time ago. The universe will not end sometime in the future. The universe is infinite. It was not born; it never dies.
Rick: It sounds like you’re expressing—
Ivan: Our comprehension and our level of thinking cannot really grasp that at all. I mean, it’s just like—how can I explain? How can you explain the infinite? There is no way.
Everything is connected. Everything is complementary, appreciative of every aspect of the wholeness of existence. Everything is pulsating, moving, transforming, coming and going. The whole point is, are you aware of that happening or not? That’s the whole point.
Rick: Well, you just said something a minute ago about not being too certain of your ideas, and yet you’re speaking now in a very adamant, certain tone. I would say that there are all kinds of possibilities. One is that the universe is emerging from moment to moment continuously, and also that it actually started 13.7 billion years ago, and both can be true simultaneously. So there are all kinds of…
Ivan: And it’s true. I’m saying it’s true, but it’s not entirely true, because there is a truth and there is ultimate truth. What’s the ultimate truth? I don’t know how I know, but I know.
Someone might not agree with me, and that’s all right. You can agree or disagree; it’s up to you. You’re free to express yourself the way you are.
Rick: Well, I don’t think anything we can express is going to be the final truth, or absolute or complete truth. There’s always more.
Ivan: In my knowing, it is right now.
Rick: Oh, yeah.
Ivan: And right now can express itself in infinite ways and infinite levels and densities. So the idea that the universe was born is true in a way, but it’s not entirely true; it’s not ultimately true.
But when you stick to an aspect of the truth, then it becomes a lie. Don’t get stuck to the aspect. Those guys—30 scientists sending a letter to an article in American Science, questioning their idea about the universe—that’s the attempt. You see? Let it go. Allow that guy to enter into your field of knowledge. It’s going to complement you. You just keep moving on. That’s consciousness moving, expanding, and becoming more and more of itself.
Rick: Yeah, this is an old pattern. If you read Thomas Kuhn’s The Structure of Scientific Revolutions, he talks about paradigms as being certain packages of understanding and how they tend to be resistant to change. But as more and more anomalies—things that contradict the paradigm—begin to accumulate, at a certain point the paradigm eventually has to collapse and give rise to a new paradigm.
So there’s always some resistance to change, but then there’s always… which is good, because, as you’re saying, with Brahma, Vishnu, and Shiva, there’s some stability that is necessary for everything not to be complete chaos. And that applies to…
Ivan: Exactly.
Rick: That applies—
Ivan: So what’s the main ingredient in that stability?
Rick: Um—
Ivan: It’s you. It’s your consciousness, being conscious that you are. That’s the stability.
That’s why I like—I mean, it’s not like liking or disliking; it’s more like being drawn into the perspective of holographic reality. You see, the hologram is a photographic process that uses laser-coherent light of the same wavelength…
Rick: Right, to produce dimensional images in space. So every single aspect of that space, every aspect, every point, is the whole. You know, a complete three-dimensional image can be cut into many pieces, and each piece will still be capable of reproducing an image of the whole.
So the holographic perspective is a complete multidimensional frame of reference, as opposed to a linear perspective of reality. Changing a single component of the holographic simultaneously changes the other aspects, the other components within it.
So the world and everything in it are projections from the level of reality beyond the horizon of comprehension. God is a hologram, the universe is a hologram, wholeness is a hologram, a projection of nothingness from where everything else comes.
So the holographic universe is just awareness within an infinite number of simultaneously coexisting ways to experience it. How do we experience the infinite number of holographic projections? Through the perception of consciousness.
What radio channel you are on determines what kind of music you get, you know? On the air, there are other channels, but you hear only the one you are tuned in to. With intention, we are capable of experiencing many angles, many different points of view, many perspective realities, many parallel realities—everything different, different aspects of the one reality, because reality is holographic.
Rick: Yeah.
Ivan: But interestingly enough, in the Book of Genesis, God created the world in six days, and then on the seventh he went on vacation.
Rick: Went to Florida, yeah.
Ivan: Went to Florida, yeah. But Christians believe that God’s creation happens only once. From the point of awareness, creation is continuously happening in this moment of now, forming an unbreakable whole without interruptions, eternally right now in infinite directions.
Every new moment of now destroys the previous moment of now. Every new moment is the creation of the moment. You see, if you can remain conscious within the moment of now and not move away from it with your thinking, then you are in continuity of your awareness. You become God yourself, witnessing the infinite creative process of now.
You are witnessing your own self expanding—not choosing, not guiding, not shoveling, just being. Being is God. That’s what awareness is. That’s what the holographic universe is.
✨ Stillness and awareness
Rick: Yeah, and you know, this thing about this continuously emerging universe—to the credit of physicists, they actually do have an understanding of that. I think they call it sequential spontaneous symmetry breaking, and what they mean by that is that there is, at all times, a unified field, a completely synchronous, whole, complete, nonfragmented level of creation. From that, greater and greater complexity and diversification arise.
But this isn’t something that happened 3.7 billion years ago; it’s something that happens continuously, as you know, every moment, as you say.
Hey, a question just came in from someone named Sri in Stanford, Connecticut. Sri asks, “What is it that’s not moving in us?”
Ivan: What is it that’s not moving?
Yeah, what is it in us that’s not moving?
If I say what’s not moving, then actually it starts moving.
Rick: Would it?
Ivan: It’s going to start. If I say what’s not moving, that is inviting that nonmovement to move.
Rick: Can it? Is there something which can actually remain nonmoving despite all the movement and despite all the diversity and change, and that can’t be moved no matter what?
Ivan: There is a little mantra you can use—I mean, a meditation technique. It’s using your mind in a very practical way, using one thought only. That thought is illusion.
So you can use that thought. That’s called, in Buddhism—you know, Buddha used to say, “Remember, remember, remember that you are.” But when you remember that you are, you have a thought that you are. At one point, the thought is going to be useless, because the thought is going to say, “Who is that? Who is that who is thinking one thought?”
And then consciousness returns to itself and realizes awareness, attains awareness. That’s the trick of Buddha, using that. It’s trickery, anyway.
So what is in the moment? What is the moment? What is the stillness? What is the peace? What is the tranquility? What is that thing that never, ever moves?
Rick: You’re asking me?
Ivan: Yeah, I’m just talking. It’s like building pressure until the popcorn pops. It’s awareness.
Rick: That’s what I would have answered, yeah—consciousness.
Ivan: Awareness. You cannot be aware of awareness. You can be conscious of consciousness, but when consciousness is conscious of itself, then it becomes awareness.
Awareness simply is aware. There is nothing else to be aware of apart from being aware, and even there is no awareness of self; there is only awareness.
Awareness simply is aware. There is nothing else to be aware of apart from being aware.
That’s called bliss, that’s called nirvana, that’s called enlightenment, when there is only awareness. It’s not like you have special powers and you are walking around like an enlightened Buddha with a big smile on your face. It is just a state of being, a state of pure awareness.
Rick: Good.
Ivan: That’s what pure light is. Pure light means no heaviness. It means that you are pure light; you are lighter than the air, lighter than the vacuum, lighter than anything you can imagine or think about.
You are totally free. You are not suppressed, you are not compressed, you are not locked in your thinking; you are free from your thinking. You feel, “I’m relaxed. Oh, I’m aware that I am, but I’m conscious that I am conscious, but I cannot be aware that I am. I’m just aware.” That’s what stillness is.
Closing thoughts
Rick: So, I learned something this week. I learned—
Ivan: You did.
Rick: I did. In fact, I think it was just—
Ivan: I want you to unlearn. I don’t want you to learn.
Rick: I learned something useful just yesterday. I learned that YouTube will now auto-transcribe any video that’s under two hours, so I’m determined to keep my interviews under two hours so YouTube will auto-transcribe them.
We’re just about at that point, and I need to wrap it up. I also learned another thing, which is that once you reach 100,000 subscribers on YouTube, they give you all kinds of special treatment, advice, support, and whatnot.
I’m only at 28,000 subscribers, so anyone who’s made it this far in the interview, subscribe on YouTube. Just hit the little Subscribe button for the channel. I’d like to build it up to 100,000.
But in any case, to keep under the two-hour mark, I need to conclude. So I would like to thank you for coming on the show and for this lively discussion. I will obviously be linking to your website and to your books, as I always do when I interview somebody. People can go there and take a look at your art.
Maybe we’ll even paste a couple of yantras into the video. When we mention yantras, I’ll get some from you that we can paste into the video so people can see what we’re talking about.
Ivan: You’re free to use anything.
Rick: I can pull them off the website, or you can even give me higher-resolution ones that will go into the video.
Ivan: Of course.
Rick: Yeah, we’ll do that. Anyway, people can get in touch with you, and if they go to your website, they’ll see what you have to offer, as is the case with everyone I interview. So I appreciate having you on.
Ivan: I’m very grateful that you invited me, and I really am grateful for this opportunity to just engage in joyfulness.
Rick: Yeah, it’s a lot of fun. So thanks to those who’ve been listening or watching. This is a weekly show, as you may know, and if you go to www.BatGap.com, you’ll see all the previous ones. You can sign up to be notified of future ones, and there’s a lot of other stuff if you just explore around on the site.
We appreciate your attention, interest, and support, and we’ll keep it going. So see you next week. Thank you, Ivan.
Ivan: Thank you very much.
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