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Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. And my guest today is my good friend, David Buckland. And I say is my good friend, not because we’ve grown up together spent hours and hours and hours together, but I feel an affinity with David. And we’ve sort of grown close through electronic media over the last couple of years sending back and forth tons of emails. David has helped me tremendously with the BatGap website. He’s very good at technical things. But he also has a great deal of spiritual wisdom and experience. He has a blog called Davidya, which is sort of a play on words. He’s his name is David. And Vidya means knowledge in Sanskrit. So it’s some knowledge from David, although he doesn’t claim to have originated,
David Buckland: friend of mine gave me this nickname, and found out the meeting later.
Rick Archer: Yeah. And David is one of these people who has been fairly reluctant to do an interview, which is always a good sign that he’d be a great guest on the show. Because he is just, you know, doesn’t claim himself to be a spiritual teacher and everything or anything, and has wanted to keep a fairly low profile. And, but finally, he just, he decided to do an interview. And the context of this is that I’m up in British Columbia. We’re now at a retreat place where David and I are going to be doing a retreat with Lauren and Lucia Hoff. And we’re looking out over a kiwi orchard. And maybe I’ll get some footage of the places very beautiful. The Kiwi lodge in near lady Smith, British Columbia, on Vancouver Island on Vancouver Island. And I always like to do interviews in person if possible, although over Skype is fine. But somehow there’s just an even deeper mind meld when you can actually just sit with a person and have a conversation as opposed to doing it over Skype. least that’s what I find. So I’m really pleased to be here. And I think you’re going to enjoy this interview, David has a lot of wisdom to share. So people usually like to sort of get a sense of who the guest is, what their background is, what, in a sense, what qualifications they have for being on the show, simply because anybody can spout philosophy. You know, anybody can read a bunch of Advaita books, for instance, and learn how to talk non dual. But, you know, that’s the dualistic but, you know, as I’ve quoted many, many times on the show others the Tibetan proverb, which says, Don’t mistake understanding for realization. And it goes on to say, Don’t mistake realization for liberation. And so perhaps if we were to just sketch out the course of your path, your spiritual path over the last decades, it would give people a sense of who you are in that respect, and what qualifications you have for talking about what we’re going to be talking about.
David Buckland: Okay. First, I would like to invite listeners to consider they have a choice here. You can of course, listen with the mind and hear a person tell a story. Or you can settle into a quieter space and listen from the quietness, to the quietness, that’s there, the silence of speaking and the silence that’s listening. There’s lots more magic in that part of it. Of course, if you don’t know I’m talking about don’t worry about it, enjoy the interview. But there is that option you have for how you listen, makes a difference. Okay, well, I guess the spiritual part of my story starts my late teens. I got an interest in consciousness and brain stuff and and I was reading up about that started running into references to meditation and didn’t know anything about that. And then I saw a poster for for TM, transcendental meditation. And I went out and to a lecture and that was interesting. I didn’t really relate to it too much, but they the science was was they had some, you know, a booklet on some of the scientific research and it I found it, you know, compelling so I thought I’d give it a try. And Wow, yeah, my first meditation boom, into this really peaceful space, you know, kind of a foggy, but light space. And yeah, I was really impressed. So I pretty quickly became a keener and started going to Peter keener Yeah, like someone who’s keen, yeah someone who’s you know, gung ho Yeah. And, you know, some weekend retreats and, and courses and went to a bunch of lectures and all that kind of stuff and and I guess about nine months after I started I was in northeast France and on a six month retreat to go deeper and learn to teach the meditation TM Coccinelle the tell the tale. Yeah. Yeah, little after your time, on the earth, etc. Yeah, so that by that time, things that shifted a little bit. It was mostly videotapes from the earlier courses a couple of years earlier, like you were on. And so the first three months did a lot of purification.
Rick Archer: And that’s what was that, like? Purification
David Buckland: while I was an anxious kid, and so lots of anxiety pouring out. A lot of restlessness, there’s a fair bit of memorization in that part of the program, and so kind of like trying to memorize what you’re approaching. Anyways, you know, it was it was fine, though. And at certain point, it started having little brief clear bits where the witness kicked in. And the witness is kind of, it’s like, an observer mode, you kind of shift into this observing. Whereas usual perception is you’re a person here experiencing the world. But in the witnessing, you kind of take a step back and you are awareness, observing the person observing the world.
Rick Archer: Yeah. And let’s just dwell on that for a second because it’s not like you’re a person observing a person in the world. No, it’s not like astral projection where you’re separating one aspect of individuality from the rest of it and standing apart and elaborate on well yeah, what is the witness? You’re
David Buckland: shifting into consciousness itself observing the the the person experiencing it’s shifting into your deeper nature that’s underneath underneath the mind and emotions and all those layers of of experience and your deeper nature is not merely individual, right? It’s a more universal it’s everyone’s nature. Yeah. Same assured same. Yeah. Consciousness. Yeah. Like that. Is one of the lamps be many. Yes. And so here and there kind of came in and out a few times and and witnessing Yeah, yeah.
Rick Archer: So in other words, it was it persists for days sometimes.
David Buckland: At that point, I didn’t know it was mostly for hours glimpses Yeah, look glimpses here and there, but it was an you know, it was a precursor. And then in the second half, we went a little deeper and a certain point the we did what was called rounding essentially. Which is cycles of yoga, asanas. Pranayama, and meditation.
Rick Archer: Yeah, they remember the song Dear Prudence by the Beatles is a refrain that goes looked around round round, referring to rounding actually, on the course they did with marshy in India. So I
David Buckland: was on the floor, face down, doing yoga, and, and all of a sudden, there was this brilliant blast of white light, blew out all perception and for just for a moment, and then the reception started to come back again. And for a moment, I could see through the floor, and the wall of the room below out onto the grounds. It was kind of like, Oh, that’s interesting, some bit of flash, you know, and I didn’t think too much of it. And I continued on and went to my meditation that but then it became apparent after that, that the witness was stayed. And it never did and it never did stop after that. It became constant background continuity, underlying all experience
Rick Archer: what happened when you slept at night?
David Buckland: Well, that was kind of interesting actually. At first being you’re basically that witness stays through waking, dreaming and deep sleep. And so at first you know, I’m dreaming and I start manipulating the dreams and that kind of stuff and some dreaming Yeah, kind of like lucid dreaming. And then and then in going into deep sleep, watching the body fall asleep and become like this immovable lump and, and just basically being hyper vigilant for a few days, over observing and that and then I realized that if I was observing the mind sleeping, the mind was still awake, which wasn’t really the question I was about that he said that it wasn’t really because there’s the senses were still individuation still there. Yeah, okay, you know, so it kind of I realized that was unnecessary and just kind of relaxed into it. And they were just awareness. And so the body would go to sleep and the mind would go to sleep, and they were just this continuity of awareness. So
Rick Archer: during that continuity of awareness, was it like I am aware of my, the awareness of the body? Or is it complete? Like, no, no sense of the body whatsoever? Just awareness in and of itself by itself? Pure awareness?
David Buckland: Yes, it was awareness, just by itself kind of behind
Rick Archer: not perceiving anything, because it’s nothing to perceive at that point, because the senses of perception are shut down.
David Buckland: Yeah. So it’s just observing. Well, observing isn’t the right word there
Rick Archer: can active a verb Yeah, it
David Buckland: just kind of like, presence, you know, just, and then that sense of continuity, that was the thing I really noticed, which is there was a continuity. And let me ask,
Rick Archer: if it’s just presence, and there’s no sensory activity going on no cognition, no cognitive functions going on? How do you even know that that presence is there. But
David Buckland: there’ll be things come up where a dream a bit of a dream will happen, or some some noise in the room, or it will raise you up or sleep a little bit and, and then there’s a little bit more going on, and it settled back down again. And just that sense of continuity, just that sense of never, because there was a distinct shift, you know, that before that, there was a certain style of experience, and then this is a completely different style of experiencing. And so the, that distinctive difference never shifted back.
Rick Archer: So is it kind of like, there’s a bubbling up of some activity, some dream or something. And as it bubbles, there’s a realization of, oh, this presence, which is here now, in the midst of this little dream has been here, previous to this has been here all along. But now there’s some cognitive function that’s just gotten enlivened. And I recognize the presence has been here all along. Is there anything of that flavor?
David Buckland: Yeah, kind of like that. But it’s not not really thinking about don’t have to think long, elaborate. It’s just sort of this. It’s a recognition, just a sense of, of business or being Yeah, that’s always there. Okay, where, where are we for that. And as such, as you become, the process becomes much clearer, you can actually observe the body waking up, and the mind coming online, and the ego, the ego, waking up, until there’s sort of a sense of me shows up again, and which has gone during deep sleep. So it’s kind of interesting, in a certain kind of way, in deep sleep, where we’re basically egoless. And it happens to us every day. But the actual process of waking up is a whole different, whole different
Rick Archer: thing about how during deep sleep, we sort of reside in the transcendent, but the vast majority of people aren’t aware of it. But but the Enlightened maintain that awareness during deep sleep, there’s I mean, it didn’t they say that that’s why sleep is so one of the reasons why sleep is so rejuvenating that we’re actually sort of resting in our true nature. I’ll be it in an unconscious way for most people.
David Buckland: Yeah. And it’s also useful to make a note here, in the TM teaching Maharshi taught was that witnessing full time, witnessing deep sleep was the key marker for cosmic consciousness or what is more commonly called self realisation. However, in my case, and I know several others, I didn’t actually, there wasn’t a liberation. There wasn’t that actual shift. It was like a close but no cigar. It’s kind of that the witness came online, but the ego remained identified. It took me a long time to get clear about that. Because it wasn’t I didn’t have a context for it. But But yeah, that was the context. And it turns out that there are some people have that, that kind of shift and some, some teachers even or teachings speak of, of a pre awakening stage that happens for some, whether it’s the witness comes online, but it doesn’t go all the way. The mechanics are interesting. Kundalini video tradition talks about the energetic mechanics that are supporting that. And basically, when the Kundalini shakti rises up, the spine, gets above the throat. That’s when the witness comes online. But at that point, the Kundalini is still unstable, so it comes and goes, but if the Kundalini rises high enough to to reach what’s called Mokra, which is just above the third eye, which is the white flash experience, I had not already has that with Mokra. But it’s one of the symptoms, then Kundalini become stable, and doesn’t go back down again. So the witness becomes full time ongoing, more or less would have knew. Yeah, and I know that’s not causal. It’s not that because I reached Mokra. Then the witness stayed all night was it’s more like the energetics that supports that to continue. The sub physiology can support it Ah, yeah. So but I didn’t discover that understanding until much, much later. And then the whole thing made a lot more sense. Now there’s a very small difference or, you know, distance between, you know, Mokra and the crown and awakening. But for some people that the process pauses there for the physiology to clean out more, and that kind of stuff before it moves on that avenue. Yeah. So that’s, that’s basically what happened for decades, right? Yeah. Yeah. And that’s several people. I know, same thing. But also, you know, at that point, I was in my very early 20s, and late bloomer, so I, my physiology hadn’t finished growing. And so it’s, you know, it was a good thing in some ways to pause. But but at the time, it wasn’t time. At the time, it wasn’t, well understood what was taking place. So then, about 10 days later, I had my first when I described as a cognition, cognition as a kind of experience where you get a total experience. Like, say, no object. Okay, no, no, anyways, doesn’t matter. But say, My finger is an object, okay? Here’s an object. Okay? So I’m experiencing this, this object here, and I see this side of the object. And I might know something about how these are made, or whatever like that some details. But when you cognize an object, it’s like you it’s like total knowledge of the object. You can see it from all sides at simultaneously. It’s an entire history, its origins, the whole thing all happens together.
Rick Archer: Like in the case of this, you’d somehow see the metal being mined and smelted. Yeah,
David Buckland: okay. But in this case, it’s hard. I’m using typical object cognitions usually aren’t physical objects more like more subtle stuff. And so in this case, it was what’s funny, garba, the Sanskrit name for the Golden Age. Basically, it’s the universe in seed form. So, essentially, so what happened basically, is there’s this big experience, and then it takes a long period of time, it depends on the size of their cognition, but it takes a long period of time for that to be unpacked. So that the mind can digest, you know, experience, the different aspects and the understanding and so on like that.
Rick Archer: So did this cognition come in a flash? Did it last an hour? I mean, well, it’s
David Buckland: like a door opened. And and then there it was, and it was been there ever since.
Rick Archer: I see. So it’s just, it’s there. But, you know, it took a long time to unpack and yeah,
David Buckland: so the the consciousness could could experience it. And
Rick Archer: why is that from my childhood? Hiranyagarbha thing? Well,
David Buckland: it’s, well, it’s basically understanding the universe where it comes from, how it’s how it functions, the layers, it’s of its expression. Okay,
Rick Archer: so an obvious question here would be where’s it come from? What are the layers? I mean?
David Buckland: That’s a whole interview in itself.
Rick Archer: We’ll leave it in here.
David Buckland: Yeah. So it’s, it’s a long, it’s a long process. Creation.
Rick Archer: I got 14.7.
David Buckland: Yeah, it’s a Yeah, creation is a very big space, and others kind of layers to the way the process from which well, that’s, we’re kind of getting ahead of ourselves here. But but so this was basically a starting that where the universe begins. So that that kind of started to unfold during Teacher Training, there was various other kinds of experiences, different kinds of things. This we’re talking about the mid 70s, though, it’s a while back. i One of the things for me has been interesting, though.
Rick Archer: And you would say I suppose that this Hiranyagarbha experiences any kind of a must have experienced on of course, it wasn’t like, it’s just something you happen
David Buckland: to have. Yeah, it just happened. Yeah, somehow something happened. Now here. It’s there’s a process unfolding. It’s kind of, I don’t know, for me, it’s kind of like, kind of feel like I’m being trained. It’s like, is this process taking place where it’s, it’s
Rick Archer: something that God wanted in your particular toolkit? Yeah.
David Buckland: Yeah. At first, I didn’t know why I knew this stuff, you know, what, you know, I’m not even awake, but what it’s about this stuff about, you know, what’s, what’s this for? But of course, that was kind of meaningless. It was in the larger picture. And so over the next, actually, at the end of the course, see by that point, on the course is my shield only come at the very end to make teachers right and, and so, very briefly, so he had a couple of meetings with us. He was really pleased with our progress. And three of us got a chance to speak with him at the end, and I was lucky enough rally around the mic. on the mic, and I’m fine. Yeah. And so I talked about, you know, the breakdown of the things that have unfolded, he verified the experiences and said, there’ll be a lot more, which is going to be an understatement. But anyway, so But so, you know, I came back and back to back home to Canada and, and passed around attempting to try and teach meditation and about the, you know, process continues to unfold. One of the major themes for next couple of years was on talking about first cognition, but also unrolling the layers. And it for me, it’s been interesting, too, because, for me, when there’s been a major, like, it’s time to go another step deeper, one of the I don’t know if you’re familiar with the term punch of data, five forms of God. Yeah. So basically, one of the forms of God would show up and point out, just kind of like the little pointing for the attention, and then I would say, oh, there’s that, and then it would the next layer would unfold.
Rick Archer: So like, Give us an example of a form of God that would show up. I mean, what’s the worst scenario?
David Buckland: Well, well, actually, yes, I’m that case. But that, I mean, they talk about the five in the Vedic context. They talk about five specific gods, but, but those are basically just personifications of principles, you could say. Fundamental Principles. Yeah. And so how they show up, for any given individual will vary.
Rick Archer: So if you’re growing up in a Native American context, or something and never heard of the Vedas, you and you were having this kind of unfoldment, maybe some Native American personification of the same.
David Buckland: Exactly, yeah. Yeah. So for me, which the first one was Krishna, and, and it was, so it was him this, what I now see as an asset space, whether with the golden egg, the universe unfolding, and I
Rick Archer: suppose meditative kind of condition, right? Yeah.
David Buckland: No, I can, I can think about it anytime. It’s always there. And it’s kind of like a part of the experience. It’s, it’s like, you know, I can anyways, but But anyways, Christian shows up and it was kind of, for me, it was a kind of an odd dynamic at first, because it was kind of you know, there’s sort of thing about the personal God, you know, and I had this concept about the personal God. And here’s this form of God showing up and is it spoke to a personal God. But of course, there was no kind of sense of devotion or, or anything there. And actually, I was kind of like, Was this just
Rick Archer: a problem that once you say, Krishna showed up? Were you seeing the guy with the you know, the flute and the whole the whole?
David Buckland: Yeah, call them a dance?
Rick Archer: Banarsi does
David Buckland: poster, kind of like that? Yeah. I mean, there’s little variations in
Rick Archer: the 3d. And he’s like, he’s kind of like, as real as you and I,
David Buckland: oh, yeah. And he’s dancing. And, you know, not there isn’t really a conversation going on. There’s kind of like, you know, but it’s kind of making himself obvious. Yeah. And, but there for me, there was a little part I skipped over in there. I started becoming aware of, of what people would call astral stuff, subtle, subtle entities after teacher training, when I came back to Canada. And at first, I thought it was kind of entertaining. But I realized pretty quickly that they were basically looking for attention. Like if I asked questions, and they were always happy to give me answers, but pretty quickly, it became apparent, they were just basically telling me stuff to keep my attention, and then they didn’t really have any knowledge to offer or whatever. And I realized that was kind of a mistake. So so I put I put that aside and gave it no attention. And so
Rick Archer: are they like lost souls? Or humans who have sort of gotten into some limbo state? Or what are they?
David Buckland: Oh, this was a little little smaller than that, but not much. It’s kind of varied. There are people between lifetimes. And it depends on where they are, you know, in their process, as to whether they’re, they’re able to take a supporting role, or whether they’re kind of just being passed. Yeah, kind of Rabel is one of the terms I use, whether it just kind of like looking for, for
Rick Archer: something to do, or whatever it is, people like that who are actually people.
David Buckland: Exactly, and they’re just so so. So having this, you know, being show up. It’s kind of like, what’s this another another weird thing? And
Rick Archer: I think maybe initially, Krishna was another one of these,
David Buckland: you know, somebody’s making up some appearances because, because I’m not selling levels. They’re basically made of mind stuff, right? So they can appear however, as the part of the personalization thing was talking about, they can appear however they wish to, and they’re also Do your own expectations will tend to influence that, you know, angels are a good example. I mean, you see depictions of angels are almost always kind of like flowing robes, big wings and stuff like that. But if you think about it, why would a subtle being need wings? Yeah, right physical wings or whatever?
Rick Archer: Is there an air there? They
David Buckland: need to Yeah, exactly. So it’s kind of, but it’s, it’s nothing wrong with experiencing it that way, it just, it’s useful to be aware that that that dynamic is going on. So you’re not confused by the appearance, it’s what’s behind that that’s more important. The feeling value, that’s where you want to look, because it’s the feeling value, they’ll tell you, whether it’s something is divine, or less, not not worth your attention. So, how they feel? And so it was kind of like for with Krishna, it was kind of like this, you know, what is this and you know, but a short time I kind of, you know, what’s, what’s this, find out what this is about, and you kind of made these gestures. And then I noticed there was a feature in the sky, so to speak. Scott has kind of a funny word for it, but but there was this this feature I hadn’t noticed before. And when I put my attention on that it kind of the consciousness went through that into this next level. And so I stepped out of the universe space into the larger creation space, which holds there’s many universes and I don’t buy that in parallel or, or you know, other dimension universes, they’re quite distinct universes,
Rick Archer: more or less in the same dimension, just like bubbles in gingerale.
David Buckland: Well, dimensions, the wrong word dimension is a direction in space. Yeah, it’s not people use that word, really? Poorly a lot. But yeah, in that, in that it’s more spaces nested. So there’s, there’s infinities within infinities, and you can kind of step back through them.
Rick Archer: So it’s not like you’re saying that in the vastness of all existence, or all space, there’s a universe here and the universe here and universe here, like separate little, just the way galaxies are like that, that
David Buckland: well, that’s like that each universe has its own space. But that space is within uninstalled larger, it’s a larger space, but it’s not really a space in the sense that we would say space, it’s a space and consciousness.
Rick Archer: So just the way it says that galaxies each other on space, and altogether, they’re within a larger space. Yes,
David Buckland: except existing space, distinct space. If you’re in within the universe space, you’re not in while you’re still you’re still not set, but it’s a distinct space, so you wouldn’t necessarily be aware that there was something more
Rick Archer: you wouldn’t see the other universe over there. So
David Buckland: Exactly, yeah, it’s not in the same space, it’s it has its own space.
Rick Archer: This is a whole topic of discussion that yeah, I can go
David Buckland: on, any of these things could go on for a while. But I just want to put the thing in some context here. So that kind of unfolded in several layers over time. And the same thing kind of happened where another farmer God showed up and painted to look a certain way and then there was kind of like just the attention and kind of like, what was behind that would become apparent and so so over the next couple of years, I kind of worked up to the top top part of creation and that me well to the mind of God, I guess basically define the origins of creation itself this creation and then it kind of stalled out there. i Well, actually, at a certain point, I became aware that there was other creations as well that are very very different from ours. Oh, that’s actually a point to make to the other universes are also distinct they have their own laws of nature.
Rick Archer: Yeah, so they might not have gravity they might have set mounts Well, no,
David Buckland: it’s not that different, but they’re sort of similar principles that are functioning but they’re they The combinations are slightly different. So that expression is different.
Rick Archer: So for the skeptics in the audience, how do we know that you just don’t have a vivid imagination you’re dreaming up all this stuff and
David Buckland: I couldn’t I couldn’t imagine how I can tell you but but it’s when
Rick Archer: you got to the top of creation the new the mind of God what
David Buckland: well that came in the mind of God came a little bit after that but But
Rick Archer: was he I can sense Woody Allen was telling him something real clever here about the mind of God but what what is the experience of knowing the mind of God?
David Buckland: Well, that’s further along but okay, but yeah, but there’s just big being aware of that. Well, it’s kind of like the way I would describe it is it’s our creation is like a thought in the mind of God. And another creation is another thought like that
Rick Archer: yeah, that’s kind of kind of see that Hari Krishna posters Christians line there something in these thought bubbles are coming exactly twins of creation. Yeah.
David Buckland: Well, it’s and sometimes though, what they’re expressing is each one’s a universe, which is a slightly which was within that within our creation, but another one’s it’s like a distinct creation. And they’re very, very different. They don’t have mechanics I like ours at all. Like it, some of them are very, very simple. whereas ours is extremely complex. But it’s interesting, the simple ones are interesting, because gives you the way to experience what time it is, for example, because it’s like an embodiment of time, that’s the whole thing is experiencing this time is pure time. And it’s hard to describe, but going into a whole nother story, but anyways. But, uh, you know, it makes the, it makes a lot of things much clearer. So so things went along, and, and anything else, it’s gonna be long in there. But eventually, you know, I became more involved in normal living and, you know, got a job and got married and had a couple of children, boys are now young adults, very proud
Rick Archer: of, and all this stuff was kind of going on in the background, doing all that,
David Buckland: yeah, it’s kind of just developing along not as dramatically or not, not as major changes, but just kind of progressing along. And then I ended up in a situation where I was working for the police, basically, I find myself working for the police. And I’m a kind of inner directed physical, philosophical kind of guy, you know, police department, it’s not where I expect to find me,
Rick Archer: are you doing some computer work?
David Buckland: It was kind of a combination. I was a sworn officer, but developing evidence control systems and managing the evidence and, and quartermaster, with issuing the sidearms and uniforms and all that stuff, various kinds of roles like that. But it was just like, you know, kind of fish out of water kind of experience. So there was this question, you know, my mind what’s going on here. And what happened over time is that I started to have these have these brief little flashes, sort of experiences, things that would come up little, like lesser like memories, but weren’t familiar. And, and then over time, they kind of opened up. And I started to become aware that I was remembering prior lifetimes. And one of the things that was interesting, like, the easiest way to remember or an older memory like that, is strong memories, which basically usually means challenging in some way, difficult memories. And so that can be the like, the doorway, and this is not an easy process to because you have to be comfortable enough to be willing to see that whatever. And,
Rick Archer: and then so for instance, if you had been in Auschwitz or something, you have this strong memory, you have to be comfortable enough to be able to relive that to some extent, yeah.
David Buckland: And be will and sort of, I guess, have that had the platform to be willing to, to know how to purify that to have the tools to be able to clear that. Otherwise, you just basically bring that old trauma back into your Yeah, yeah. So you know, you don’t really want to go there. So But anyways, for me, it was it was over a period of time, a couple of years, and graduate unfolded. And it became clear that the circumstances why I was working for the police, and indeed, why this marriage and so on like that a lot of details about my life, were a direct spin off of my actually my previous one, which had been all in that case, I was born into a military family in India, and an arranged marriage. But the woman that I was supposed to marry was in love with somebody else. And I had already had a prior lifetime in an ashram, and it was the military was not comfortable. And so I made the decision to withdraw into an ashram again, and not pursue the family, dharma or whatever, and or marry this woman, and so she could marry this other guy instead. And experience, that decision was very, very difficult for me, and it left this residual. And so what happened in this lifetime was that I unfolded the other decision. I did marry her. I did have that career. Yeah. And then when that was resolved, then that whole thing went down. And it was known for another chapter. So that was kind of little, little chapter in there. And that’s kind of gradually unfolded over time, more and more different ways. Haven’t I don’t put a lot of attention on, it’s the past. But in the context, it puts the life in a larger context. So it’s interesting from that, from that point of view, so not a big thing to emphasize or anything but it was its context. And just you know, there is that question again about you know, imagination. And, and all that. But what for me happened at a certain point just gradually over time, there’ll be little details that will come up. Like three lifetimes ago, I wrote a book. And I looked it up. And
Rick Archer: there’s a real book, she claimed royalties.
David Buckland: I don’t think it’s selling anymore. Old rare books. And now what was it about philosophy?
Rick Archer: As an Indian, or Western,
David Buckland: no Western or British, and I spent a lot of time going back and forth to Paris and studying with the philosophers there too.
Rick Archer: In that lifetime. Yeah. Interesting. Anybody we would have heard of?
David Buckland: I don’t remember that. After today, I haven’t explored it enough that we just kind of the general context of it. And yeah, and I learned a few things from that, too. So it’s, it’s interesting. Yeah. But it’s not something I think about much now. It’s interesting, actually, now there’s sort of like, there’s over time, there has been this whole series of different ways of experiencing time.
Rick Archer: So you weren’t like seeking out memories of past lives or anything? These were just kind of coming to you? Yeah,
David Buckland: but it was, but there was an element of me trying to understand, like, what’s going on with this current life? Why am I in this situation? Yeah. And that kind of helped me be willing to look and, and to encourage that to come out. So I mean, it’s not it’s certainly not unnecessary thing on the path, some people never, you know, go into that. Some people are very awake, don’t never bother going there. It’s the best Yeah. But the lesser developed rich karma, then then sometimes it can be interesting to explore. So, so gradually, you know, more and more of my life was more householder focused, and, you know, supporting the family and, and, you know, home renovations and all the usual kinds of kinds of busyness with a young family. And, you know, I went through another, I went through a career change and, and that’s when I shifted more into technology. And so, you know, fast forward a bunch of years, and then my marriage broke up. And, at the time, and, and I left my old business, I had helped found a bunch of things out or things shifted, and I started reconnecting with some old friends, and ended up just like people would just show I got I went to this whole spiritual thing became more lively again. So cycle came around again, and reconnected with some old friends and went to a few satsangs and met some other ones, you know, we met other ones, and, and so on. And then kind of along in that process, I started hearing about Lauren and Lucia. And they were just teaching locally and in Alberta, at that time, the Canadian Prairies and and then a certain points in there in oh seven, they started making their, their satsangs available by Skype. And so I started listening. And then we started doing this Skype daisy chain thing to connect people all over the place. It was really fragile. Like he could crash and we’d have to reconnect everybody all the time. And that and, and it’d be noisy, and you’d have thought we couldn’t hear him. But, but as he said, it didn’t matter. And, but after a couple of calls, there was a just sitting listening, like I talked about the very beginning about this listening from silence. And he used the word surrender. For the first time that I I noticed and I just heard the word differently. I don’t know how to describe it. Exactly. But just kind of like something clicked something like go and it’s kind of like I fell down this transparent tube or final in rabbit hole. Yeah. Something very distinctively, clicked, shifted. plopped whatever you want to call. This is just over Skype. Yeah, yeah. Just sitting listening. And so I wasn’t, I wasn’t sure what this was. But it was it was interesting, because for a couple of days, I couldn’t figure out how to meditate. Because the person that meditated was not there anymore. It’s like, no, it’s like, what is this person? And it’s like, sensitive way, way off, like miles away. It was just like, really weird. And it’s like, how do I how do I meditate
Rick Archer: from a distance the house is seen reverberating, yeah, yeah.
David Buckland: So so but you know, kind of integrated better after a short time and then and then it was able to kind of exist with the person better and and and I guess it was about it was on a Wednesday night and Friday morning, I woke up and I just knew just it was just clear what this was. And what wasn’t, well, that I had shifted that had been that shift from And so that was so the, the consciousness that had been awake, there is the witness all this all these decades woke up to itself. And that’s the key change. It’s not just IT waking up, but it has to wake up to itself in there and then and then consciousness awake to itself through this through this apparent form. So so the shift finally took place. And then things move quickly again, through that, through that cycle. I went on my first retreat with Lauren was that summer, northern glorified everything and yeah, it’s just really a rich period, a lot of bliss. And what’s interesting, too, about the bliss is it’s not like your idea that’s like, Okay, you’re gonna have, it’s gonna be, you know, you’re going to be kind of happy. At some point in there, whatever. But when the bliss kicks in, it’s like, it can come on really strong. Sometimes, that kind of, sometimes it kind of like, just opens. And sometimes it’s just like, bam. But it’s not once it’s the there’s layers of it, it gets bigger. There’s a section in the apana shots where it talks about one 100 times the bliss of whatever is, is this and then 100 times the bliss of that. And that’s kind of like you step up through that over time. And, and it’s like this blasting bliss, Tom Traynor talked about in the actual example, actually, his funny to his, a couple of people have commented to me that you, you better hope it doesn’t happen in public. Because you’re just kind of render this, you know, bawling and laughing out loud, just because the happiness is just so intense. And yeah, one of them for me was, I was driving down the road in my truck, and all of a sudden, just blam. And, you know, I was bawling and laughing out loud and, and the sun comes out, blurring down on my on a truck learning or whatever. right word, but just shining down on my truck. Yeah, and the radio going and Green Day, I’m so effing happy I could cry on radio. But fortunately, my body has kind of continued to drive the truck properly. But yeah, it’s pretty. So it’s kind of like this, this graded process of of the bliss. Kicking up in there,
Rick Archer: why do you feel that happens after a shift like that, because it’s
David Buckland: not the shift itself, it’s theirs. For me, one of the things I talk about is this distinction between the process of Atman in consciousness and the process of sattwa, pure purity or clarity. They’re kind of like these two parallel processes to Shiva and the Shakti side, the male and female parts of the equation. And it’s together that you get the fullness and non dual circles tend to really emphasize the the, the Shiva side, the consciousness side, and things, some of the energy healers and ascension teachings and stuff, emphasize the softer side. But it’s really what you want is both together. And, and blessed. We have what they call innovators, coaches, basically meaning sheets. Yeah. So our bodies are composed of a series of layers. And we have our physical, the food body that literally and then the, the prana body, the energy body behind that, and then the mental body behind that. And then the intellect body, which is where we also experience fine feelings and intuition and such like that. And then behind that is the bliss body. And so it’s basically there all the time. It’s just that the noise and unsettledness and fog and whatever, in the mind and emotions is kind of like a clouds, fog, dust. She used the example of the elephant stirring up the Duster
Rick Archer: Russian dolls is a good metaphor for this. And we call within the doll within the doll.
David Buckland: Yeah. It’s the it’s the physical body is the little one in the middle. Yeah, so basically, once the there’s enough clarity, then then the bliss will come online. And then like I mentioned, as there’s more and more clarity, it steps up. So it’s yeah, when
Rick Archer: you’re experiencing surges of it, like you described, probably, it just means that certain channels are clearing, and each time a channel of some sort clears then there’s a new search.
David Buckland: Opening. Yeah, I’m not sure I would simply make it quite that simplistic because it’s but when another layer of fog is is clear, yeah, it can come up in their level.
Rick Archer: And there might be some physiological correlate to that.
David Buckland: Yeah. And the other part of it that’s really interesting is how quickly we get used to it. Yeah, it’s like this blasting thing. And then a couple of hours is normal. Yeah. So this whole new level of happiness, and it’s normal, but it can still take time to integrate. I remember one time, the next year after that I was they sent me home from work because I was sick.
Rick Archer: Now Not because you were laughing uncontrollably. I was quite
David Buckland: physically sick. And I didn’t realize it. I was kind of sick. And it’s like I realized, you know, my nose was pouring and nasty erratic and I hadn’t even really noticed it was just kind of like this background because you’re gonna sit down blissful. Yeah. So of course, things integrated better after that took a little time, but you know, a little more integrated. So yeah, I couldn’t pay attention to what the body is doing and if it needs some attention.
Rick Archer: But so about a saint Ramana Maharshi, you know, when he had cancer, and he was, you know, screaming in pain, and people say, Oh, Ramana we’re so sorry. You’re suffering like that. And he’s a he’s kidding. This blissful state. This is you’re not seeing you know, but a bit of what my reality is here. Yeah, that’s just
David Buckland: the surface part of it. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah, that’s, that’s a useful point to this just because suffering ends. Just because suffering ends. Doesn’t mean pain happens. Right? And doesn’t mean that emotions, and I mean, I certainly find emotions now far bigger and richer than than they used to be. much fuller, the whole spectrum less
Rick Archer: constricted, larger context in which to play.
David Buckland: Yeah, and for the most part, they come up. Experienced, yeah, we’re south of the airport, not bombing us. So they come up their experience, and then they subside there. They resolve yeah, there’s no resistance to the experience. Normally, not perfect. But that kind of leads me into the sort of second tech. So about, about two months after the, the shift, then the GC phase, and God consciousness. And that’s, and that’s part of actually the the softer side of the equation.
Rick Archer: Interesting. So just to interject. So you went through all this stuff that you’ve described, and there were these cognitions of Krishna and the mind of God and all that stuff. And that was all prior to actual self realization, which is sometimes referred to as cosmic consciousness, which is just basically the full awakening of consciousness to itself in the context of living a life, you know, waking, waking, dreaming, sleeping. And so all that all that was leading up to that cosmic consciousness stage, which is actually quite intermediary in the in the scheme of things as you’re going to continue to describe it.
David Buckland: It’s very, it’s a it’s a key shift, though. It’s a very key shift. It’s the foundation of everything that happens afterwards. And it’s something that’s felt throughout creation. It’s like, it’s this key. Yeah, it’s it’s very key shift and self realization is very important.
Rick Archer: fundamental foundational. Yeah. So
David Buckland: fundamentals. But But yes, it’s, it’s, it’s chickenfeed. It’s like every, every time you have every time you have a major shift, it’s like everything before it was kindergarten, you’re back in kindergarten, and everything before it was pre kindergarten. It’s like a complete, you kind of start sort of over in certain ways. Yeah, yeah. So God consciousness is in the TM context has taught us there’s the cosmic consciousness and God consciousness than unity. But if there isn’t a lot of development, the GC can be very sattwa meaning purity, purity, yeah, it can be very little, yeah, there can be a very little awareness of that. And in fact, some traditions even poopoo it and talk about it as delusional or, or a mistake, but if there’s self realization is there then then it’s actually you have the platform where that can unfold. And, you know, what I described before is sometimes thought of as a subtle perception and GC types. But in this context, it was experiences. It wasn’t the value of the consciousness itself. The state itself, because with God consciousness, what happens there’s this process I talked about before about the Kundalini rising to the crown and awakening, then there is a descent, Shakti has risen, join Shiva than the to descend together. And when they get to the heart, is the GC phase. And if there is enough clarity, then there is this incredible blossoming at the heart. They’re just like, love just blasting out and it was kind of funny at the time I was I was single and, and there was no object. I’m not particularly devotional. So there wasn’t, I don’t have like, a day to day but yeah, and there wasn’t a you know, like, I don’t even have a partner, my guru. Yeah, my guru relationship wasn’t devotional like that. So for me, it was the, the, the Oupa guru, which is basically the mate. That’s the sort of form is more comfortable to me, but there wasn’t a mate. And so essentially one of my friends who I had They respected became kind of a, an object for a short while man’s woman woman as an object for the love to flow through
Rick Archer: relationship with her or is it more like just an idealization? Or? Yeah, appreciation? Yeah, deep
David Buckland: appreciation. Yeah. So we went through this kind of curious thing and
Rick Archer: slightly she made it.
David Buckland: I don’t know, I won’t speak for her. But But, but it was it was.
Rick Archer: So you’re saying it wasn’t even romantic, it was more like just this pure devotional kind of thing. Yeah, just
David Buckland: I needed a vehicle for the love to go through just like, kind of everywhere, and yeah, somewhere for it to go. And so that, that, you know, it just happened to be we were spending some time together. Because it was what we were finding, she’s just, there’s a thing I called resonance essentially, Darshan. But people there, there are individuals that you resonate with more right, than others. And as the awakening gets higher and higher, then more and more people will resonate with you. But you know, with a basic awakening, there’s a slightly smaller range anyways, we were quite resonant. So spending time together, it was like amplifying the silence, just by just having tea together or whatever. And so we were spending little extra time together right at that point, and it just happened to be that. Yeah, so it was an interesting episode. So there’s this huge flowing of love and a much deeper sense, because before that, there was perception of the Divine, but not the divine divine that the love and
Rick Archer: so you mentioned language, religion, you know, you termed it God consciousness. That’s not to read the word because it picks the sound up. You turn to God consciousness. So I guess the question to paraphrase Tina Turner was What’s God got to do with it? You know, I mean, cuz you had you found a friend, a human friend that you were channeling your devotion to, right. But that was why I was catching the word God to the state.
David Buckland: Well, that’s the that’s the expression because that’s what I’m expressing is divine. It’s not that she was. Well, she was kind of my God, whatever it is, in a sense, in a broad sense, Goddess, yeah. in a, in a in a sense of that process. But it
Rick Archer: wouldn’t be fair to say that you were appreciating, but it was the launching of God. So you’re feeling devotion to God in the form of this woman? Yeah, like
David Buckland: Namaste. But but it’s also, but it’s a that love that’s bursting forth is the flow of the Divine itself. It is it is that expression of the divine. And so it Yeah, so it has that flavor of, you know, we might not like the word whatever, like,
Rick Archer: I love the god we’re trying to understand. Yeah,
David Buckland: but just when it’s actual expression, like, before I mentioned, and I’m at Krishna, and there’s, he’s doing his thing. But it was kind of like, you know, who is this guy? What’s this about, you know, kind of, like, not a god, you know, devotional relationship going on there. So it’s a, it’s, it was a very different thing. So recognition that there was the divine, but it was on the level of experience, not on the level of much deeper value of the Divine, you know, understanding how the divine moves and flows through everything, and so on. So a much deeper value of what had been there before unfolded. And then there was a, there was a, another shift happened about two months after that. It kind of came in, in stages, it was just, it was kind of interesting coincidence, a friend of mine had was watching a DVD of Om Shanti unlock Kelly talking called the journey after awakening. And it’s basically on this phase between initial awakening and unity. And there and, and they said, you know, they’re, they’re describing your experience, you should come over here. And so I watched it, and there’s just one other thing to happen. They call it the barbecue. I don’t call it luck. call it that. Yeah, the end of the discussion. And basically, what happens is the the, the scent reaches the gut. And a very, very long time ago. When, in the cycles of time, consciousness had this, this big hole description here. Basically, consciousness goes through these rising and falling cycles through time. So there’s higher consciousness, people are moving like yogo or something. Yes, exactly. Yeah. So it’s higher consciousness that people are more awake, happier times, and then we go down to the darker times, and then we cycle back up again. It’s just like the seasons, you know. And in a, during the last ascent, there was a place where there was a somewhat precipitous drop and people lost their connection with the divine, probably suddenly, and and so it created this kind of like, grip, grasping And what we grasped that was the individuality, the what was still there the sense that I am here. And so what’s going on this core grip in the gut, that is the core identity Adyashanti actually talks about this to head heart gut he describes and some of this material. And so, that’s not conscious until that point, usually. And so it became conscious, released quite quickly, fortunately. And it was interesting for me. I might not have even noticed it, except for the fact that I knew about this barbecue step. Because it was just, it was kind of like this anomalous experience where there’s this really strong and exactly fear, but like, kind of thing ran out of nowhere, and processed away and then and then what I realized was there was no longer a David there anymore. And for a couple of weeks in there, I talked to I dropping personal pronouns altogether.
Rick Archer: Knowing to talk with
David Buckland: exactly what was going phases, yeah, and so I refer to the body mind as the unit. Yeah, it was kind of an odd stage, but But it it was, it was fairly short. And then I went on another retreat with Lauren Lucia and, and then one evening, I was lying in bed, you know, it was dark in the room, very, very bit of light leaking in, you know, I could still see there was a room there. But at that point, I realized it was all gone. Well, all the what not just the David Nadis. But everything, all that history of cognitions and experiences and the awakening and all that stuff was gone. Just emptied out. And so I’m kind of looking around this very, you know, this dark room, it’s like, the room still here. Like all creation, the whole thing is gone, right? But it’s like the room still here. What’s What’s with this. And so basically, what happened was the previous all the previous stuff collapsed, the shift took place, and then I was able to bring it back again into that new context. So there’s kind of like those three stages of self realization unity and Brahman, we’ll get to in a bit and then there’s the progression of refinement, the SOCO the the clarity taking place, with the heart and refinement and so on. Parallel to that, and whereas this first stage, as I mentioned, they begin with a realization, there’s a shift in being, and then everything kind of develops from that, with the other ones, it’s a progression to a climax. And, and every time we have a shift in our stage of consciousness, it puts all that refinement, stuff in a new context. And so so before there was, there was God consciousness now that there’s what takes place after that, is bringing that stuff back into unity. And so you get refined unity. So at first though, there was just this, this shift, and there was no longer a division between inside and outside, it was just like a continuum. And I contained everything I was the container with the world and the world was no longer separate. Now, this changes the witness dynamic, though, it’s no longer the Euro detached witness, because the world is you also. And so the observing is still taking place, but it’s no longer separate from the contents, it’s essentially the the observer and observed collapse together leaving only observing the process of experience the day without value of the Divine value. So that kind of process took place and unity is kind of different to in that it has a series of stages, because you’re you’re basically unifying through experiencing, what you experience you become. And so, you know, you go through this process of experiencing, bringing back the old refined perception stuff in this new context, and you know, just old memories and you know, what’s out here and all this stuff, and as it’s experienced, it’s integrated this one wholeness, and progressively and it goes progressively deeper over time. And this is quite I mean, this isn’t like a concept of oneness or, or a feeling of oneness or anything like that. This is in on the level in Koshas itself. So for example, if I’m, if I, on the level of sensors if I touch you, I feel you with my hand, but I also am you experiencing being touched simultaneously. They’re both happy but
Rick Archer: you don’t feel the sensation on my shoulder the way I feel the sensation. Oh, yeah, so
David Buckland: you do yours? Yeah. So not now. But at the time when you touched me? No, but I mean, when I was in that, when you when I was in that stage, you know, you’re in that stage. Yeah. And now I know, I don’t pay attention to that stuff, because it’s just, it’s too much information. So, but But it’s, but I’m just saying it’s like, because it’s happening on the level of consciousness, it’s inclusive of everything. And so it’s inclusive of all your levels of experience. And, you know, you put your attention on a tree or a dog, and you experience what that being is experiencing. But you experience it from where you are not from where they are, that’s good, because it’s your consciousness that’s doing the experiencing. So this isn’t astral traveling or empaths.
Rick Archer: experience suffering.
David Buckland: Yes, but it’s not your suffering you’re experiencing in the sense of, like, you
Rick Archer: wouldn’t want to get a job at Red Lobster, throwing lobsters into the boiling water or something, because you’d be experiencing with the lobster experience. Yeah,
David Buckland: but that’s empathic stuff. But that’s if you’re, if you’re engaging that because there is there is always the choice you like the with a refined perception, you know, you can look at the tree, or you can look at the tree and see the energy flowing and, and the dynamics going on with a free or in Unity experience where there’s to be a tree, that’s how you’re using your attention. But if you can, if you’re being a household or living in the world doing things, that you’re just there’s a tree, that’s fine, you don’t need to look at every single tree and, and see what it’s doing. Right. Too much information, I think. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You still have a life to live here and your physical body and, and your physical responsibilities and all that. But anyways, not
Rick Archer: having all those cognitions Of every tree and so on, doesn’t deprive you of essential value that has somehow dawned in your experience. Right, right. Yeah.
David Buckland: Yeah. So and you can filter the information too. So you can experience that they are suffering, but not experience their suffering, or not make it your suffering, because it’s a difference. Because there’s that distinction to again, between suffering and pain. I mean, you cut yourself, there’s pain, but how you respond to that makes a difference, or whether they’re suffering with it, right? Like you when you make a drama about oh, this should never should happen, I shouldn’t have done that, that was really stupid of me, you know, get into a big drama about it, or you just experienced the pain itself. Yeah. And one of the things about interesting about pain, and that’s physical and emotional pain on both, is that when you acknowledge it, it will back way off. It’s when you resist pain, that it it, it feels it’s trying to get the signal to you that something’s wrong. And one thing
Rick Archer: I wonder about when I hear that is that, it sort of seems like it depends upon the degree of pain, like, you know, to be crucified, for instance, and not regarded and not suffer during the process, would, it seems to me require a very profoundly established state of Enlightenment, you know, certainly the pain is going to be there. But, you know, whereas to stub your toe, and, you know, could would and not suffer would require a much lesser degree of, of Enlightenment? Yeah,
David Buckland: yeah, well, or attachments, really. And that’s actually the important distinction in there, because that’s more related to the softer side, again, because people can can wake up and still be very attached to certain kinds of things. Now, there is this kind of process, I kind of jokingly referred to it as the three amigos there before, amigos. Because there’s like the awakening, there’s the loss of the concept of a me and and of the, of the sense of me, that’s an individual separate from other other things like that. And then with the heart, there’s a loss of the emotional drivers of that. So after the GC phase, actually, it gets much easier to wind down some of the the old concepts and mind things and stuff like that. And then with Unity, it’s the loss of that core ISense, which is the origin of that in the first place. So once the unity is established, then that’s very clear. So someone who’s somewhere in the middle of there is quite likely going to be still be having some dynamics about, they blew the middle out, but there’s still old habits of being a certain way about stuff, or, you know, resisting certain kinds of experiences or whatever, there’s still some of that old dynamic is still they’re able to kind of revive bits and pieces, until that kind of settles out. You know, unpacking sometimes it’s called or whatever. So the shift itself is, is key. But there’s a process that happens after that where it has to be unloaded. I just Shanti talks about having a honeymoon after the shift, and then followed by the mind trying to come back and and reassert itself as being quite common. You know, and we’re the thing about the West too is we have a real mind dominated culture, so that’s more likely to happen. There’s less, there tends to be a little less of that side, clarity side of the equation, the heart side, more mind left heart kind of thing in the West, Tennessee. I mean, there’s certainly all kinds of variations in that. But But yeah, it’s more of a, it’s more prominent than the West some of that stuff. So, so yeah, you know, the process unfolded over a number of years, like, I’m losing track of all the details, now, but but gradual, progressive, bigger and bigger kind of completeness. until it reached a point where a consciousness became aware of itself on a really global level. So there is consciousness aware of itself, Atman, software, Atman, wherever it sells, both globally and every point within itself. And essentially, you and I are different points within itself. Points of observation within that one wholeness, non separate, like blue waves on the ocean. Now the graphic of that on my blog. And in this in this global awareness, and once consciousness reached that point where it knows itself fully, that’s an interesting thing that can take place. It has always been consciousness aware of itself. But when AI knows itself fully, it can stop looking in and looking on itself. Which is kind of interesting, because when you talk to somebody who’s even in unity, it’s kind of like, What are you talking about? Because consciousness is infinite. It’s eternal. It’s, you know, existence is,
Rick Archer: is beyond that.
David Buckland: How can we be beyond that? How can it how can there be an origin or?
Rick Archer: Yeah, didn’t pleasure something outside of it? Yeah.
David Buckland: Yeah. And where, and what happens is, it turns in it sees the origins of itself. Conjugate has origins. Yeah. So consciousness has a beginning in Raman. In a sense, it’s kind of a, the dynamics got quite different than but that leaves
Rick Archer: I’m not in some time line sort of sense. Ya know, the back then. kind of goes beyond primordial now. Yeah.
David Buckland: So essentially, there’s these two qualities you could say almost say that there’s this alertness. Yeah. And this liveliness, and the aliveness stirs alertness, and it becomes conscious, yeah. And then consciousness, the aliveness through his consciousness to flow, and it flows and curves back on itself and then become self aware. And when it becomes self aware, it becomes aware of its own existence. And existence becomes consciousness existence,
Rick Archer: we can have creative intelligence, yeah, so that’s
David Buckland: the dynamic in consciousness, but there’s that piece before it. And and that kind of so there’s that dynamic, the consciousness becomes aware it has its origins. And then it depends there’s the kind of two things that happen in there. This is when the the other side of the equation with it looks out beside the the it reaches a point where you have this choice of, of uniting with God. So the ultimate stage of unity is uniting with the divine or to retain that Leisha video remains of ignorance to keep a slight difference distance so that you can still be devoted to God. Right? Yeah. And so there’s that choice that takes place where you, you can unite or whatever most people I know have done the uniting thing that have made this step. And so you become one with God. You then go beyond as a result of that you you step beyond Atman, you transcend Atman into Brahman. And they call that the Great Awakening in the Vedic literature it’s it’s a very big change again the all every all the entire Enlightenment that had been there before gone you know from from the examples I know it looks like it there’s typically a two stage process Firstly, there’s this this unless it’s extremely clear. Firstly, there’s this stepping out of there’s that there’s the stepping out of unity and the Brahman so you’re what you’re conscious of is what you’re leaving behind what you lose basically. And that can be challenging for some people. It can certainly be a surprise, unexpected and the way it because it’s complete, thorough, all that, you know, layers of unity and all that intimacy and, and the relationship with the divine and all that stuff. Gone.
Rick Archer: Nathan, the word Brahman a few. I think you’ve kind of defined that view better to find a little bit more because people aren’t going to necessarily be
David Buckland: well, if you’re familiar with some of those things like the Mahavakya is from The Upanishads I am that thou art that all this is that that alone is, I mean, that’s more a reference to the unity process. But essentially that is Brahman. And it’s defining Brahman is an interesting one, because it’s not consciousness, but it’s not non consciousness. It’s not existence, it’s not non existence. Because those are, those are actually dualities. It’s not obvious, even in unity, that the fact that you exist and you’re conscious, is a duality. But it actually is a very subtle duality. And Brahman is beyond that, too. And they call it in the Brahma sutra calls at the aggregate, it’s like this, grab this coming together into this totality for this wholeness, that’s greater than all of it. And it’s interesting, because then the whole perspective, up until then, there’s been this whole perspective of this unfolding divine and the structure of Creation and, and a lot going on. And now it’s, it’s gone, there’s nothing and not a nothing in terms of emptiness, but nothing in terms of not, that never happened, creation never happened, never will happen, you know, that kind of stuff. So it’s like, and here I had been this guy, you know, championing that your understanding of this, you know, the, the, the creationism, illusion, or you know, the world is Maya and illusion or something like that is not a complete understanding. And actually, that’s entering that’s a worthwhile point to make this from chakra Maya does not actually mean illusion, it means it comes from the root to build, it’s the reference to creation. And when as chakra points out, when tamas Guna, the inertia is dominant in the physiology and our experience, we experience the world as real. So, when that is transformed through rajas or fire transformation, we come to see Maya is illusory, the world is illusion. And, and then when sattwa becomes dominant, the transformation starts to complete. Then we see, Leela the divine play, the world becomes seen as, as a play of the Divine. And so in other words, the world is illusion is a stage of sattwa development. It’s not a marker for stage of conscious stage towards that one. Yeah, so some people will go into self realization with lots of stuff already. So they won’t have a world of illusion stage. And because it’s they did that already beforehand, or whatever, however, that showed up for them. So it’s part of that sattwa process. And then But even you know, there’s at the bottom of my, my website is a little saying from the from the Isha Upanishad the face of truth is hidden, hidden by covering of gold. And then of course, from the Krishna to Arjuna, and the Gita be without the three gunas. So even sattwa itself, you want to go beyond, but it’s that that becomes the platform for a lot of development.
Rick Archer: So sattwa is the color is the covering of gold sattwa period. Yeah. Which itself has a obscuring date, to some extent, although that’s nothing much by comparison with tamas. Yeah, exactly.
David Buckland: Yeah. So it’s, yeah, so it’s still but it’s still the quality of expression. It’s not the source itself. So yeah. So yeah, for me, the so there’s that first stage into, into Brahman, where it’s more, you’re more aware of what you’ve lost. And then there’s a second stage where you start to be come aware of what Brahman itself is. But it’s like, you know, the Dow that can be described as not the Dow kind of thing. It’s really challenging to describe anyway, because you can feel like, well, it’s not consciousness, but it’s not not consciousness. It’s not, you know, you can do all these things where it’s not this it’s not that and, and you get those phrases. What is the one other one chakra said that
Rick Archer: brought the world is an illusion. Brahman alone is real the world is Brahman.
David Buckland: Yeah, exactly. Because that’s, those are all three true simultaneously, right? And it’s it’s it’s complete merger of paradoxes, and to true non duality. Because it’s, you know, a lot of people talk about self realization as being as being non duality and you use those kind of terms. But if there’s a separate losery world, that’s not even if the world is an illusion. That’s not that’s duality, right.
Rick Archer: You got some non duality over here, but he was also
David Buckland: not not developing non duality unfolds with unity. Right. That’s it. That comes a little later. So yeah. Anyway, so it’s the this process of the second stage is is when you become aware of what actually is here. And it really depends on the on the person it. For me, the process has been quite a bit slower. I think, probably because I had that long witnessing the, you know, those, those earlier stages can quite quickly. And then the process has gradually starting to slow down because I haven’t, I’ve used up my, my, what’s the word that my credits, whatever. But, but it’s just anyway there’s there’s more, it’s a much I could it’s kind of like it’s funny, it’s I can say abstract, but it’s sort of like, there’s a stage in in unity where the world becomes more real than it ever was before. Because it’s the self and the self is eternal. And it’s sort of like the real takes on this concreteness and solidity because it’s absolute, yeah, it has an appearance, a surface appearance, which is changing, but behind that is, or then there’s the you know, subtler value, we’re seeing the flow and, and behind everything, flow of consciousness that’s giving rise to all this, while this appearance, but then their branding perspective, this isn’t happening. It’s, it’s actually it’s like the divine had this brief, thought amusing. And it’s like, and, and that’s led to, you know, these gazillions of this huge, vast creation with, with a gazillion beings and each have a whole bunch of universes and all this natural laws of nature in this whole process and that kind of stuff. But it’s just like this kind of slot, it never actually happens, whatever. Little brain fart, yeah, it kind of like that. And it’s kind of interesting, too, because when you explore some of these, you know, the subtle dynamics of all this, it’s like, you know, in yoga, CH there’s that story of the crow, the bush and Kakbhushundi. Yeah, and he has figured out a way to live through the dissolution of, of the universal integration. And he’s lived through 10 cycles. And in those 10 cycles, the position the other stations, you should come to visit him, what, seven or eight times or something, but not every time. So it’s kind of like this little slight variations, and it’s repeating itself. So, you know, before for me, the purpose, there was that sense of leela, the purpose of creation was for the self to know itself. And but once it’s complete, it’s done. Why Why would you do it again? Even if there’s slight variations, you’re not going to, you know, so, but the Brahmin answers that question, doesn’t in the first place. didn’t need to happen.
Rick Archer: A couple of questions here. One is, you know, the thought that’s been kind of percolating, as you’ve been speaking, and that is, you know, who set this whole game up? I mean, there is there, they didn’t, but let’s say from the perspective that they did, from Unity perspective, that there is a creation, you know, and it has all these laws that govern it. And, you know, who’s who set that whole thing in motion? Or can’t the question
David Buckland: the answer, you could say that? Well, you can say the divine God, wow. Next question is why? Well, if you look at silence, with nothing in it, what’s the point of it? There’s, there’s no, there’s no you can learn from that, right? You can’t learn about self unless you experience yourself. And so if you express the the, all these qualities of intelligence within within it, then then there’s that opportunity for consciousness discover itself and all these little details. So conscious, I mentioned earlier, how consciousness is aware of itself globally, but then it goes into each point, to become aware of a different perspective. Like you’re experiencing me from a certain perspective, I’m experiencing you from a certain perspective, and there’s various flavors and qualities that are distinct between the two of us and yeah, so So that’s
Rick Archer: a way for God to know himself as a living reality as opposed to a flat on manifest on your, you know,
David Buckland: yeah, no, yes. No, but it’s not even like there’s there’s no need for God to know itself that way. But but there’s this quality of, of, because God has, you know, already knows everything. It’s already all there. So there’s this quality of consciousness that arises from the Divine then the consciousness wants to know itself. And then you get there’s a whole whole series of, of tears to the process and so each layer wants to unfold the next layer and, and then there’s just kind of going out and going out into the to the creation and then getting lost in it, and then finding your way back, right. got that whole story that that various.
Rick Archer: And as you know, you know, some people regard creation as meaningless mechanistic, cold, you know, random accidental, all kinds of words like that. You and I don’t think see it that way. Nor would not to the people watching this there’s the there seems to it seems to be pregnant with purpose of some sort of evolutionary purpose.
David Buckland: Oh yeah. And there’s life everywhere. Yeah, that’s been aware to me for a very long, I mean, you’re never alone,
Rick Archer: everywhere would even mean places that would be considered entirely inhospitable to life such as the center of the Sun. I mean, that is life as much as ever.
David Buckland: Right? But there’s life. Yeah, but it’s not this is there’s life that exists not just in a physical sense. But you know, on those levels of energy and mind, that kind of stuff, there are beings that exist, and express through whatever, whatever they have available, and they’re having their own process of experiencing and, and doing whatever they they’re their own Dharma or whatever purpose that they have, I don’t
Rick Archer: know, wherever you look, there’s intelligence in abundance, I mean, go out somewhere and intergalactic space and look at a cubic centimeter of what apparently is nothing. And there are laws of nature functioning there, which evidence in a credible intelligence,
David Buckland: well just consider ourselves I mean, we exist as these as these complex life forms on a on a planet, you know, and you think about this, just the odds of that from the non physical laws, you know, entropy? Why, you know, entropy is a very powerful force. Why is there any, you know, why is that, well, how did life how the planet managed to even be formed in the first place that didn’t just fall apart and disintegrate? You know, there, we can talk about gravity and various things that happen, but then it stabilizes after, but how would life and intelligent life form on that just from random
Rick Archer: chair mechanic, forget who it was shut down, or somebody who said the universe isn’t winding down? It’s winding up? Yeah, you know, there’s this continual F emergence of Yeah, orderliness doesn’t
David Buckland: make any sense, right. I mean, yeah, there is this Ooh, where you’re going to talk about creationism? Or, or whatever, some of the what is the term they use for the
Rick Archer: intelligent design or intelligent design? Yeah. Well, there’s an obvious, but it’s balanced entropy. I mean, you know, otherwise, everything would have just ground to dust.
David Buckland: That force of order has to be stronger than entropy for this system to continue. And actually, that’s what dharma means. It’s that which sustains the purpose, their sense of, it’s often, you know, translated as purpose. But in a deeper sense, dharma is that which keeps things going so that it can unfold.
Rick Archer: Yeah. Okay. Now, a minute ago, you said something about how, you know, when you’ve gone through this whole process, and come to its conclusion, why would you want to do it again? Well, creation, yeah, creation. And that, to me sounded like it was expressed from a somewhat individual perspective, because from the universal perspective, it would seem that it’s an eternal cycle, which would never sort of reach a point of never been never wanting to be done again. There’s this kind of convert continual
David Buckland: Yeah, what I was what I was expressing, there was my experience at the time had been that the purpose of creation is for the self to know itself and all these different, you know, but then when it becomes apparent that, that it goes to keep cycling, and it repeats itself, then the question comes up, well, why would it do that? And well, then that’s resolved with Brahman when you see that it didn’t do it in the first place.
Rick Archer: Yeah. So it never did it. But from the perspective that it has done it, yes, then it keeps doing it.
David Buckland: Yeah, what appears to keep Yeah, it appears to keep going and then it
Rick Archer: knows itself in the form and this form this form has become a conduit or an instrument through which you can know itself, but not necessarily in this Petunia, you know, and, or in that frog, or whatever. Yeah, so it seems that all forms continue to evolve and serve as vehicles for the souls which embody them to progress through stage upon stage of greater and greater sophistication in their in the course of greater and greater self discovery.
David Buckland: Yeah, that’s interesting mechanics. Yeah, they’re essentially mechanics that too, because there is that what’s called the Veda itself, you know that we think of Vedas as being books, but the books are actually written versions of descriptions of what might be called blueprints or core plates, maybe even Yeah, yeah, or core templates. And essentially, they’re, they’re laws of nature that are structured in and divine mind. You could say that And a certain point a certain being arises who cognizes that beta. And that, that activates that law of nature in creation. And then that next stage can unfold. So there’s so there’s kind of like this this, like it’s a template or blueprint for this. And the and the series, a sequence. Yeah, that that progressions are unfolding.
Rick Archer: So are you implying here that the Vedas are sort of the template for the manifestation of the universe creation after creation?
David Buckland: The template for creation? Yeah. And then there’s all and it’s just the way that we use is associated with this creation. But there’s also better socially with other creations,
Rick Archer: each creation having its own data? Well, Vedas,
David Buckland: they are not kind of, they’re not kind of separated, per se. There’s data and within it as, as the various yeah, there’s a scene in 2001 Yeah, where they go inside the hall, and they’re, they’re pouring out the chips filling out the chips, and they’re gonna, like, support acrylic blocks. Yeah, that’s what they look like. To me. It’s like, yeah, like, it was like it was acrylic blocks that contain three dimensional experiences, like a an encoded experience kind of thing. But the experience is designed to awaken that law of nature.
Rick Archer: Yeah. So that’s an interesting comment. Because for a moment there, I was beginning to feel like no getting off a speculative here and philosophical and metaphysical, and, you know, Hindu Whoo. But when you
David Buckland: talk about this stuff, what you just implied
Rick Archer: is that, you know, you actually experienced this stuff.
David Buckland: Oh, yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
Rick Archer: So do you feel like yeah, you know, to, to all appearances, you have a personal life, you have friends, you have interests, you have a job, you do this, you do that? You are, you’re in money, you pay taxes, you know, whatever you do. And, you know, so one might ask, Well, what impact is all has had on your personal life? And you might answer, I don’t have a personal life. But by all appearances, you do. And so? And, and I guess I’ll just refer a second more here. And does all this have a practical significance in terms of it? In terms of living of an apparent personal life? If you wanted to do all over again, would you do it all over again? Oh, yeah, it has enhanced life, immeasurably over what life ordinarily is how ordinary life ordinarily is live. Yeah. And Christians like that.
David Buckland: Well, that’s interesting. Yeah, the practical value is more in quality of life. And insight about why life is my life is the way this is or why, you know, there’s whatever going on. It’s, uh, I don’t know, there’s certain aspects of about it of it that, you know, there’s periods of time where I’ve been kind of offline exactly, but were something dominated so much that that I was kind of like, spending a lot of time just trying to work through whatever it was. I mean, I didn’t spend two years in a park bench, like, like, a car, it’s but but there was, you know, periods of a week or month or something like that, here and there
Rick Archer: where you weren’t very functional, because you were practicing something. So
David Buckland: yeah. And this life has also been very good. I mentioned before about Chapter oriented, I have these really distinct chapters, whether it’s kind of like this career and religion, and that kind of stuff like that goes on. And then it finishes, and it’s on to the next chapter. And it’s like, and that’s been hard on relationships, because life keeps shifting.
Rick Archer: So you feel like somehow you process relationships much more quickly than the average person. So for what one person might take a lifetime to do you work it through in a few months, and then on to the next one?
David Buckland: That’s not my intention. Yeah, I have this I have this maybe fantasy idea of having a relationship that’s last, this last and, you know, well, I mean, I have had certainly had no relationships have lasted, but just you know, a long term, like a really long term, lifetime for the rest of your life. Exactly. Yeah. Yes, that would be nice. And so what
Rick Archer: happens when you when you have one of those in the works, and then it doesn’t work out? Do you find that this kind of cosmic perspective and unity awareness at all, still doesn’t enable you to well deal with the foods of human behavior and
David Buckland: there’s a lot of insight you know, I am not, you know it’s easier to process through this stuff.
Rick Archer: And there isn’t, you’re less reactive, less judgmental. Yeah. And it’s just
David Buckland: like, Oh God, this again, some Time is, but but, but it’s like there’s you know, as it is becoming clearer that over time that’s clearing this stuff is ending. And and so the life is becoming much simpler. And there is little things come up here and there, but it’s just nowhere near the, the, the drama, the complexity, the the concern. So, so yeah, much, much greater quality of life in so many ways. It’s kind of interesting because things keep changing, and there’s this, but now it’s kind of like multi layered, too, because now one of the process we didn’t get into was the, the way the body shifts the body itself. There is this progression through deeper levels of understanding, because once you become aware that your body is you know, contains the universe kind of thing. There’s this kind of progression through, like monolayers, as David tell body where you become aware that you are your body is the contains all the data that manage all life forms in all universes. So it’s like your finger is this sea of these little dots of profound intelligence that are interacting and creating this finger for all beings and all universes and all time simultaneously. It’s like, yeah, my imagination just couldn’t come up with some of this stuff. It’s just real mind structures sometimes to digest even it can take a while to kind of process. So
Rick Archer: then he asked Monday to come back on the fingertip, because this interests me. mundane question is, if there’s so much fulfillment, complete, you know, profound fulfillment, why would you want a relationship? Or is it? Is it because of the devotion, like you said before, where you had, well, there’s
David Buckland: that there’s that but there’s also I’m just a guy, yeah, still a person here. Who has a life. I’m still this householder working through my going through my process and going here and doing the Auckland. My work and, and the writing and the blah, blah, blah, that’s going on.
Rick Archer: There’s still a personal human level, which is companionship and so yeah,
David Buckland: exactly. Yeah. Yeah. I’m friends. And and, yeah,
Rick Archer: there’s that saying the individual is cosmic, but the word individual is still there.
David Buckland: Yeah. So but there’s but the individuality is kind of like this surface. little point on the on this on this wholeness. Yeah. And so there’s that today with a body is an expression of the cosmic body, which contains all of the Creation in that and you know, and it’s the one that sets the form that we have, there are physical forms that the various life forms, we each have a David toe body. No, there’s one.
Rick Archer: Kind of the collective conglomeration of David tamas. Is that what the David W. denox. David tackles.
David Buckland: Oh, yeah. David basically means like being it’s
Rick Archer: impulsive intelligence? Uh, yeah. Yeah. When it’s
David Buckland: more expressed, and on a more Express level, then you’re talking about angels and and, you know, gods and whatever, like that kind of stuff. But on a more subtle level, it’s just this this profound, alive intelligence,
Rick Archer: ocean of intelligence with impulses in it are waves in current current,
David Buckland: that’s more than the level of the universe. This is a little subtler than that. But yeah, but that’s what gives rise to that.
Rick Archer: Okay. So that thing you said a minute ago about, you know, the finger and structures and fingers for creation or something, all beings. And I’ve heard this before that, you know, people say, well, the whole universe is contained within my body. And that’s not my experience. So I’d like to understand it a little bit better. So there’s, obviously everyone could say that, even though everyone may not experience that, I presume, if one person can say that, then anyone can say that. And is it just that the universe is contained within a human body? Or is the universe also contained within that grape leaf?
David Buckland: No, it’s well, yes. But it’s because the the, it’s not the human body isn’t this person, this person is just an expression. This body is an end result and effect of processes within consciousness. And so this body is actually cosmic. Yeah. And it’s what contains the universe. It contains the data that contains all of creation. So you know that these layers coming back, there’s actually a thing one of the older articles on my site on the Mahavakya has another thing below that where it talks about the hub sure here and where the I Am the universe, I am the day with my body I am the I Am the cosmic body, I am the I Am the Veda. It kind of goes up in stages,
Rick Archer: you know that William Blake poem or infinity and a grant of sanity turn it in an hour and all that, you know, the Wildflower
David Buckland: so beautifully expressed.
Rick Archer: Are you saying that um Since this is ultimately composed of infinity, then how much infinity does it take to contain a universe? You know, and therefore, an infinite and therefore, since every point is an infinity, infinity and a grain of sand, but then as I mentioned
David Buckland: early on, and then like infinity is within infinities. Yeah,
Rick Archer: so the whole universe within the body, I mean,
David Buckland: but that is the same thing as the universe. It’s not, it’s not like, it’s like, there’s not like the universe. And there’s a body inside the universe, that it’s the universe to its that the body is the universe will do the same thing.
Rick Archer: Help us understand better because I don’t even know how to ask questions to clarify this. But you know, you’ve been in various stages of ignorance during your life. So try to put yourself in those shoes. Put yourself in those shoes. Imagine the average listener trying to make sense of what we’re saying. And so what the hell does it mean? What does it mean to say the universe is with your body, because by any by just the experience, it’s
David Buckland: like you’re sitting in like, like, I was on TV, like, sitting in the golden egg I was. So this
Rick Archer: is the Andromeda galaxy over here. And Nebula,
David Buckland: actually, I want to talk about a body star is that there’s kind of like these places on the body that correspond with various places in the galaxy, or the in the in the universe. Yeah. It’s a bit depends on how you’re looking at it. That’s when you get into like, some of the Yoga Sutras talk about the placement of the stars in relationship to each other and their movement. And that, and that’s, that has relationship also with the body too. So yeah, but it’s not, you can’t take it in a literal sense. It’s like, the universe has this arm over here with this finger? Because that’s, that’s just the shape that disappearance has. It’s, it’s more than that. It’s they’re not, it’s like, they’re different expressions of the same thing. So universe is an expression, this body is an expression. It’s the one thing and so one expression, is this person or another expression is the universe. Yeah, another expression is you.
Rick Archer: Okay, so let’s say, a cop is an expression of clay. And, you know, statue is an expression of clay, various things are made of clay. And so that which all that which, the stuff of which this has made, is, since the stuff of which this cup is made, is also the stuff of which everything is made, then in a sense, everything is contained within this cup, because it’s the same stuff. So is that the sense in which you’re saying that the unit and the universe is within the body, because what the body is made of, ultimately, is consciousness, or the absolute or whatever, and the absolute contains everything. Therefore, if we appreciate the absolute level of the body, we’re, we’re seeing the body as something essentially, which, in its essence, contains everything. And there’s, there’s no sort of this much absolute, this much absolute. Absolute is absolute. And so if you’re looking on the absolute level of things, then wherever you look, you see everything contained in every point. Yeah. Yeah. Does that make sense? It
David Buckland: also goes back to what I was talking about in the unity stage, where, you know, you become everything. And it’s, and it’s until you reach, you know, like the farthest point beyond perception, whatever that quote, is, is part of myself. And it’s the same kind of process, it’s just like, we are everything, and it’s that essence is within everything. And, and so you can experience yourself as this body here, or as this universe over there, or, or as the aunt or as God.
Rick Archer: So, so you are, we are everything we are that which pervades everything. And, you know, when we say we are not referring to this bag of bones and this bag of bones, we’re referring to the essential way. Yeah. And this backbones is just something which enables individual perception, speech, things like that. But it’s not the way that we’re actually referring to when we say that we are everything, or we contain everything, or even the body contains everything. Yeah. Right. And it’s certainly I’m starting to get it. Yeah.
David Buckland: It’s yeah, it’s pretty abstract. But I mean, one of the one of the things is, like I mentioned a couple of times in the thing, when you’re in one stage, that’s the reality, you know, knowledge is structured and consciousness is different in different states of consciousness. Right? So, you know, the reality of, of self realization is it’s a profound shift from the reality of prior to that, but but there’s this other reality Unity, and there’s this other reality and Brahman and and it’s really useful to understand those distinctions. Because when you’re reading Shankara, or Sufi poem, or whatever like that, if you understand those distinctions, and you can get a sense of where they’re speaking from, yeah, because there’s a lot of confusion now where people are taking Vedanta, and applying that to self realization, and self realization is in there. But most of the data is more about Unity and Brahman beyond selves. Yeah, yeah. And so when they’re talking about one sun, they’re talking about the nature of the world. And there’s, you know, like, there’s a huge distinction between the world is an illusion and the world never happened. I mean, you can, you can use those as similar ways in a sentence to describe, you know, to try and describe something, but in the sense of the reality, but there are two completely different realities, very distinct, and in between that is this whole other reality, and none of them seem to be compatible. But what you have, what happens with Brahman is it becomes inclusive of all of it. And then it’s just a matter of, okay, if you put your attention here, then you can talk in a unity context and, and describe, in a certain way, whatever like that. But, but the fundamental reality is extremely abstract and, and very difficult to describe. Or, and it’s not something like, even somebody in Unity would have trouble. It has trouble with concrete, you know, understanding ramen, so yeah, it’s not something you know, more than just says, don’t try to figure it out. It’s not something to mind. Congrats. It’s just, it’s Yeah,
Rick Archer: one thing I think you do, though, and which I’m also hope, hoping to be contributing to us, to some degree, is to achieve greater clarity in our culture and our sin, our larger spiritual community, as to you know, what all these terms mean, what awakening means, what Enlightenment means? What stages there may be? Because is it really are there really, as many kind of like, realities to the unfoldment of Enlightenment as there are people? Or is there sort of a roadmap, which we all understand approximately, and it’s an experience to some degree of clarity, but which if we all had perfect understanding, and perfect clarity, we would be an animus in our understanding and agreement?
David Buckland: And that’s what I think is I’m working on it. You know, I’ve had the pleasure, you know, going on, particularly from going on Lauren Lussier retreats is seeing a lot of people go through these shifts. Yeah. And, and so it’s given me a lot of material to understand the variations, but also to understand the underlying process. So what’s the underlying process? And then, you know, how are there these variations, like I found, there’s five typical ways that people will subjectively experience the initial Self Realization shift. And of course, there’s huge variations in the intensity of purification or experiences that may or may not come with it, and all this, you know, variations that go on their dominant Guna. At the time, you know, whether it’s sattwa, or rajas, or tamas, and all these different things will affect the subjective experience. Yeah, also the kind of techniques they use, because culture is a certain kind of awareness. And so, there’s all this variation, but there’s also this underlying process that’s taking place. And that’s what I was talking about earlier on, you know, there was, you know, clarifying about, there’s this witness thing that can happen separately from the awakening, or it may happen together with it. Because it’s not really that far from MACRA, to the crown. Bindu. But but there’s, but there’s this, this, what’s the underlying processes happening behind that, and that distinction about, about self realization that it’s, there’s self awakening, but there’s the actual awakening is when self wakes up to itself, not just that we become aware that there’s a self, but I mean, we can call that an awakening, but the real awakening that we’re looking for is when self wakes up to itself through this apparent form. That’s the actual self realization shift. It’s so important.
Rick Archer: So broader question is, do you feel like it’s theoretically possible to? You know, I mean, if you tried to use the understanding of the topography of North America, that was current when Lewis and Clark first went west, to navigate from St. Louis to Portland now, you wouldn’t get very far you end up in some river pretty soon. You’re trying to follow the Oregon Trail, which no longer actually exists. Yeah. And so do you feel like it’s that we could event yet but these days, of course, with satellite mapping and GPS and all that stuff, we understand the topography of North America in the whole world? very precisely, right down to the square foot more or less. Do you feel that spiritually speaking, we could arrive at a state of understanding as a culture which we would be like our modern understanding of the typography of North America as compared with our current understanding, which would be more Lewis and Clark like and its accuracy. Yeah,
David Buckland: very much. And there’s a couple of things about that. One. Is that that, yes, that it’s perfectly easy to find it much more clearly than that it’s
Rick Archer: over the next couple 100 years or something. Yeah, perhaps. Yeah,
David Buckland: that’s one of things. I’m working on a book I’m hoping to get published in the next little while. And that’s basically what it’s about is what is that process that unfolds? And that’s it’s interesting, too, because there are some teachers who are discouraged talking about stages, or deny There are stages.
Rick Archer: I think they’re simply being simplistic. They’re just thinking, Okay, it’s all unity. How can it be stages in Unity? Yeah,
David Buckland: right. There’s something that can be some of that kind of thing. But one of the problems is one of the one of the common themes in there is concepts of a process are a barrier to the process itself. And that’s true. Our concepts about it are a barrier concept, watching the TV might be an impediment to people. Well, it depends on the approach we’re taking. But a concept of No, no stages is the same barrier as a concept of stages. Because what happens when your stages start to unfold? Then it’s like, okay, what the heck’s going on? There’s not supposed to be any stages. You know, like, I was a little confused early on, because I started witnessing, and that’s supposed to mean this other thing. That
Rick Archer: didn’t mean any concept. Okay? If you take them lightly,
David Buckland: yeah, you take them lightly. It’s like a map. A map is can be very useful when you’re going to someplace new. And then when you get there, you put it down. But you know, you deny a person a map, because it’s it might, you know, whatever,
Rick Archer: or because it doesn’t know, because a map of Montana doesn’t actually resemble the way Montana is gonna look when you get there,
David Buckland: or you use Google Streetview. And you discover that it’s a little bit off. And then this was actually half a block down. Yeah, it’s kind of so yeah, it can still it’s not like it’s a perfect answer. And, you know, or Lauren saying that, that our concepts of Enlightenment can be one of the last barriers to it, especially with people who’ve been on the path for a long time. And really, you know, I’ve studied this stuff more formally. But that doesn’t mean we shouldn’t be aware of the process. And there’s there’s actually an in the seventh mandala that Rick did, there’s a place where your Sage procedure mentions the importance of desiring unity. Once you once Self Realization happens, and but how are we going to desire unity? If we don’t know it’s there? Yes. Right, exactly. So so that that’s the thing is you need to understand that there’s a process. And there’s distinct stages, how you’re going to experience it will vary. Example I use sometimes as puberty. Puberty, there’s a standard process that happens for everybody. But different people will experience it very differently. Sometimes it’s the quiet little thing, and sometimes it’s more challenging.
Rick Archer: Yeah. I mean, I was just talking to a friend today about how it seems that so many people have certain sort of awakening and reach a sort of stage and feel like they’re done. You know, there’s something so gratifying or self sufficient about whatever they are experiencing that they feel like, well, this is it couldn’t be anything more than this.
David Buckland: I expressed that myself. Yeah. It’s like, the seekers died. I’m, I feel complete. I’m infinite. I’m liberated. You know, it’s like, what more could there be? Yeah. Like everything.
Rick Archer: Right. So, but yeah, so it’s good to know that, you know, there’s more
David Buckland: face. Yeah, it’s like a face. It’s like,
Rick Archer: I think what people kind of react to is that, you know, forever follow the dangling carrot. You know, that that can sort of be Yeah, yeah, you can sort of deny yourself the appreciation of what, to what, to the degree to which you’ve actually already arrived.
David Buckland: Yeah. And earlier, I talked about the stages of bliss thing, too, and lots of people will go through a fairly long, protracted process after a shift where there isn’t bliss. It’s just this, you know, unpacking Clearinghouse process that goes on for a while. And you know, sometimes people look at, you know, Enlightenment as some kind of escape from their life. But it’s the opposite. Actually, it moves you much more fully into your life. Because you can’t wake up unless you’re willing to be here. And be present to it and be willing to face what’s here. Yeah. And otherwise, it just doesn’t work. So it’s a, it’s a Yeah, so there’s all kinds of I remember, I decided to write a post one time and, like, 100, Nate. No, no. Anyway, so the mess of Enlightenment, there’s a whole lot I can’t remember. Hold on. But what it’s not, it’s not this. It’s not this, like, a good example is I want to wake up, but you will never wake up. No, the person doesn’t make up the ego doesn’t wake up. The person wakes up from the ego, right? It’s a self that wakes up and wakes up from the ego. So it’s a it’s a, you know, and yet for many, many years of my life, I was wanting to become enlightened, you know? Yeah.
Rick Archer: I’m gonna bust a gut train.
David Buckland: And darned if it turned out. That was a mistake. Yeah, I’m never gonna get enlightened.
Rick Archer: You mentioned Lauren, a lot of times learn and Lucia and you and I are here to do a retreat with them. How many retreats? Have you done with them? Maybe a dozen 20? Over? I don’t know, quite a few dozen or so yeah,
David Buckland: I’ve lost track. And
Rick Archer: so, you know, as much as you’ve progressed, which seems to be to a very significant degree, you still find value in coming back to these retreats? Because you just want to get a nice deep breath, or do you feel like there’s yet more to appreciate? Or there’s definitely
David Buckland: more, you could do something that I’m not finished? Yeah. Because one of the things is with anyone ever finished? Well, in this time, not really. There isn’t enough time to finish because once once you have the Brahman shift, you’re done with stages of development in consciousness, there is no longer and then that, but the the refinement side, that’s essentially could go on for hundreds of years. Essentially, an indefinite process consciousness
Rick Archer: itself doesn’t develop anymore. But the apparatus through which consciousness become a more integral more refined, more
David Buckland: integration, more embodied, more refined. process. Yeah, I mean, that’s amazing. This this, you know, some of the stuff I’ve had no idea. I mean, like, you’ve heard the absolute body, yes, term. Yeah. So it’s like this. For me, this body is not an individual body anymore. It’s an absolute body. And there’s this process that’s taken place, where and guided by farm, you know, the farms of God, where certain things have have have. gifts have been given, I don’t even call it that. Things have been an arranged organized, and then certain laws of nature woken up through the cognate Tory process there, why the law of nature is woken up. And then it’s blended with other existing awake laws and created this new synergy. And that now is part of the process of me. living this life, where I mean, I walk around, and I’m doing things and I’m still you know, living, you know, householders life and all that kind of thing. But behind that is a whole other process taking place that’s completely unrelated to this apparent form of activity, where there’s this process of processing creation going on, all the time now in the background.
Rick Archer: So earlier, you’re talking about like the five coaches, and it’s like subtle bodies of seven or seven, seven coaches, and so on. And I’m just using that as an analogy now. So when you mentioned absolute body, I mean, this body is aging, and will probably die in 20 3040 years or whatever, the surface
David Buckland: value, but it’s going to subject.
Rick Archer: But you’re saying there’s an absolute body, which is behind the cosmic yacht, it’s like, is that in a sense more your, your real body? I mean, you so I hate to use the word identify. But do you identify with that body more than this one?
David Buckland: No, it’s just like, it’s there. This is here. There’s the there’s the other kosher layers are here. There’s this mind and intellect that are very active and
Rick Archer: blah, blah. And so what will happen when this body drops off? Then I take a step back? And and is there still a vehicle of some sort? Yeah. Even though you would, I don’t want to say I am enlightened. But even though you are liberated, being let’s say, there’s still a vehicle once this body drops off. Yeah. Yeah. And what the purpose of that vehicle is one of
David Buckland: the one of the interesting things about about this, like I mentioned about time a little bit before, is time isn’t, isn’t. It’s like a dimension and sense of of space. It’s a, you know, forward and backwards. And I know something of the future as well. Not not sort of like what’s going to happen tomorrow and that kind of thing, but more like the broader future.
Rick Archer: Like Marcus is going to be in a week or so. Yeah, no,
David Buckland: it’s not that kind of detail. And but because my consciousness, or whatever I call it, the thing is higher than it’s distorted. Say it again. Well, the consciousness is continuing to evolve. So at that point in the future, it’s it’s, it’s distorted. So it’s hard to
Rick Archer: it’s hard to grok what exactly consciousness Yeah, exactly.
David Buckland: There’s this reality taking place. And it’s like, and so I have this sense of it. And for me, I understand there’s why this unfolding is taking place. It’s not actually even for this lifetime, it’s worth for later on. Is kind of Scott like a training ground where I can kind of clean up the, the karma and have these these shifts so that it’s It’s established, and I can carry that forward. So yeah, it’s a it’s a, it’s funny, you know, I mean, most of the time, most of my friends don’t talk like this. So I just talked about the movies or, or, you know, good restaurants or whatever like that. And it’s just, you know, I have a normal life, it’s you know, even people that are quite close to me, you know, often don’t get into a lot of this stuff, because this is so abstract. And
Rick Archer: this is all I’m interested in, like movies and restaurants,
David Buckland: ya know, it’s pretty, it’s pretty wild. I mean, in some ways, I mean, it’s just kind of this process has been unfolding. And, and over time, I’m less and less. In the process, it’s just taking place. And so there’s just this unfolding. Oh, what’s what surprised will come up today again, or what will happen now? What will unfold now? And, and it’s interesting, too, because when I described the, that shift with the new law of nature coming online, this isn’t a isn’t a local thing. It’s happening. cosmically right. And so this is taking place, this is shifting. The creation as a whole is taking place on that level. So there’s this person having this experience here. And this apparent, absolute body moving through itself, and shifting itself. It’s like, but it’s taking place on a cosmic level. So it’s doing that on on all the levels that are expressed from that.
Rick Archer: And I totally understand that, but yeah,
David Buckland: it’s it’s hard to, it’s hard to. But it’s interesting, because it’s taking place because for me, it’s like a marker for, for what’s taking place in the evolution of group consciousness. And that’s a useful thing to make a note of, by the way, that
Rick Archer: the lady, you’re kind of an outlier. And there are other people who are going through similar shifts, and all are sort of being in some sort of training or preparatory phase for what is to come.
David Buckland: Yeah. And that’s happening. You know, I was more, I’ve become more conscious about over time. So. Yeah, so you’re not
Rick Archer: one of these people who wants to just sort of be out of here and you know, get off the wheel and never exist in any way, shape or form again. Yeah, you sense, I think that there’s a role to play and that you’re willing to play it and happy to play it. And
David Buckland: yeah, it’s interesting. Actually, there’s a there’s a Jyotish, Vedic Astrology thing that when you talk about your stuff, and you know that they now they can talk about your, your expected time of death. And it’s interesting that they told me that I have, I have a choice. And to my karma has done to be to be done with it, or to continue on. So it’ll be interesting
Rick Archer: on this day, but you think, who knows, like to be 300, if you wanted to, or something I don’t
David Buckland: know, beyond reckoning is what they said. But I don’t know what that means. It’s just, you know, it’s like one of those sort of things, like, who tells you this now? Jyotisha, two different times? Well, but we’ll see many examples of that. Yeah. So but we’re, we’re in a time where things are changing a lot. And one of the things that’s really important to understand with this, too, is it’s an inside out process. So it’s taking place in consciousness and moving forward gradually. And so the last place, you see it is on the surface. Yeah, yeah. And so it’s not a spur for a lot of people, it looks like things are going south really badly. Yeah. And a lot of ways. And, and certainly, there’s a call, you know, some things are being pushed to the surface to be seen and taken care of, but it’s actually a sign of a purification of cleaning out, not of the nine times.
Rick Archer: Great. Yeah, and in fact, I was just talking to Ken Ella, last night, and we were talking about how these things keep happening like the for the shooting in Ferguson, Missouri, and that becomes a whole consciousness raising thing about Black Lives Matter, or, you know, something happens with gay rights or something that shifts the culture, the culture seems to be shifting with greater, greater rapidity. And these different events that come up seem to be catalysts for that. Yeah. Yeah. And so, and the way that all relates to this conversation, I believe, is that, you know, there’s a huge spiritual awakening taking place in the world. And, and it’s not just a matter of cultural changes and or attitudes about, you know, black people or gay people or whatever, it’s, it’s, there’s something much more fundamental than that taking place.
David Buckland: And so astounding, I mean, I smell this time, you know, on a spiritual path. For a long time, I could count on one hand, the number of people I had met that were awake in any kind of way. And so often the stories about somebody being awake turned out to be, you know, Some good experiences. Yeah. For a little while, and, and but now, it’s just a whole different thing. It’s like, I mean, you’ve got your show, with all these people that have come on it, you know, various various stages of development than that. But, but and, you know, dozens of people I know. And these retreats, too, you know, when I first started coming on the retreats, there was a few people who had shifted, and then now they’re the majority usually is it has shifted in some way. And there’s people at all different stages now. So it’s this complete diversity. And so even just sitting, having a meal on the retreat is like the President’s it’s just really, it’s really nice.
Rick Archer: Yeah, so I don’t know yet whether I’m gonna interview Lauren Lucia Lauren has sort of learned doesn’t want a big huge wave of publicity and interest, but just the fact that I’m doing this interview, and I’ll be interviewing Claire Blanchflower. After this, he’s gonna get to Google see whether or not and so people gotta be entered? Who is this Lauren guy? And where are these retreats? And how do I get into? And so I guess the one question is, you know, you and I have TM background, probably a lot of people on these retreats do, and but a lot of people who are listening to this interview are not going to have had one. So how relevant would all this be to them? Oh, yeah,
David Buckland: Lauren, Lauren, when he first started out, you know, he had tam terminology was what he was familiar with, but he’s become much more over time, much more generic terms and stuff like that moved, moved away from that a lot. And, and certainly, you know, the people who know him and her friends are friends and stuff that made these connections. A lot of people have TM backgrounds, on the retreats, but it’s by no means everybody, not at all, and there’s quite a diversity. And there’s people you’ll find out from
Rick Archer: the declare, doesn’t have a TM background does she know,
David Buckland: she she learned TM after leadership. So it’s, so it’s like, some people are waking up and then learning TM or, or not, or not or not, they’re just out there, they have their,
Rick Archer: you see that in terms of the track record of people awakening that the TM people have some kind of advantage are really not
David Buckland: well, people who have been meditating for a long time, have have pros and cons, because they got a lot of more clarity, usually, so the shift is clear. But they also can have stronger concepts and are more kind of like, seeing everything going on. And kind of like you know, so the ego is kind of like trying to manage things, try
Rick Archer: to try to fit everything in and shoehorn everything into the structure that they have. Right here.
David Buckland: Was one of the things about the ego is it’s like when you start seeing the seeing path, the ego doesn’t want you to see through the ego, because once you see past it, once you see through it, it’s it’s toe shame is over. Yeah. So. So there’s kind of like this dance that can happen. And one of the ways he does that is with concepts, and it kind of dances that stuff up and does its thing. Whenever you try something in some insight comes through, and then it’s like, you know, yeah, goes on. So yeah, it’s a, it’s a, it’s a little dance to happen sometimes in that approach. And so that clarity can be very helpful, especially after the show, because then you can move through it quickly. But, but it can be a little bit more challenging to make the shift itself. And there’s that that kind of clarity, too. So that’s where this was really helpful, too. Because when you’re in a group like this, being whisked away, then that the weakness is more likely, yeah, it’s easier for that weakness to happen, you know, in a lively place.
Rick Archer: So I hope I do get to interview learn, because I think it’d be interesting, if especially if you do it at the end of this weekend, and I’ve gone through the whole experience. Because, you know, when you say, people who have shifted, I don’t even know if I count myself among them. I’ve certainly undergone huge transformations over the decades. And there’s, if I were to describe it to describe my experience to you, there’s, there’s, you know, a lot of stuff that I think you’d find interesting and significant. But I’m just not sure what is meant anymore by a shift because it’s like if someone asked me if I’m awake, I my answer would probably be a little weaker than I used to be and probably less awake than I will be.
David Buckland: But there was there was a through it’s been a
Rick Archer: brand, you know, irreversible watershed moment, you know,
David Buckland: right. Yeah, like a macro. Yeah, that was but
Rick Archer: I don’t feel like I’m falling back.
David Buckland: Yeah, you know, my Yeah. Well, the length of my my shift was quite distinct as well, but, but it Yeah, like it’s one of the things like I’ve mentioned the five ways that that happens. And one of them is just kind of like this, this gradual process and eventually, somewhere down the road, you kind of realize, Oh, I’m not falling back. It’s just it’s here all the time. It’s there’s this continuity awareness. I just am, you know, and I’m not being caught by stuff so much anymore, and it’s just kind of a more natural that
Rick Archer: disguise my experience, and yet I don’t Think I have lucid dreaming, at least not consistently? I don’t far as I know, I’m not witnessing.
David Buckland: That’s where you get into, you know, go deep and go more rested, yeah, go more rested, you’re much more likely to get the clarity.
Rick Archer: But it’s fine. But you know, on the other hand, I don’t really care because I’m, I’m enjoying the whole unfoldment. And I don’t have any sort of burning desperation to be to point x by such a such a time or anything. I’m happy to sort of let it unfold as it unfolds.
David Buckland: Yeah, that’s a good approach. Yeah. And we all have our own different processes and stuff and look what you’re doing and really overtly in the world, and bringing this out to so many people. So perhaps a fair dose
Rick Archer: of ignorance is useful in this capacity to be able to ask the right questions.
David Buckland: Yeah. It’s one of the things about, you know, I remember that was one point went along, I could not remember what it was like to have an ego it was just like, it was just it was it was gone, you know. So there was no reference point for that. And that, and in a sense of being identified with it, I mean, yeah, actually, that’s something I should clarify, too, because it’s not that we like I experienced a sense of ego death in this process. But it’s not actually the ego itself that dies, it’s the the identification with the ego that ends that breaks up. You’re still a person here that has preferences and habits and tastes whenever like that. But they just, that’s not the center anymore. Yes. It’s just like, your little thumb or something, or maybe finger
Rick Archer: already? Well. A lot of times, you know, when I interview somebody, their teacher, they’re doing Satsang. They’re doing Skype consultations, they’ve written a book, and you only kind of like, with touch on one of those points, which is that you’re writing a book, and it will be available sooner or later eventually. So, I mean, do you have any inclination whatsoever to like, interact with people in Skype consultations, you know, for some compensation, or, or well, I’ve
David Buckland: never considered it? I don’t? Yeah, not really anything. Yeah. I mean, writer. So yeah, my blog, and I write there and yeah, and I’m compiling the core stuff for the for the stages process to understand the different stages and the underlying process and the variations. That’s kind of what I’m trying to work on. Can people
Rick Archer: submit questions through their through your blog, if they like, like you’d write about something, for instance, and they have a question. And I noticed a lot of times in our interaction between you and I, and some other friends that have been grist for the mill, and in a sense, giving you something interesting to write about
David Buckland: exactly why and just responding to a few discussion groups I chatted in sometimes, and, and sometimes something comes out, there’s like, Oh, that’s interesting, because my thing is for me, is I actually learned about the writing process, because it’s not, it’s not, it’s like reading through me. So it’s kind of like, yeah, so I kind of write something. And then it’s like, oh, I didn’t know that. Yeah, well, that cognitions thing I wrote recently, the three stages of cognition. I didn’t know that just kind of came out. And I realized, oh, yeah, that was that stage. And that was that stage.
Rick Archer: actually mentioned actually, that Buddha at the Gas Pump has, there’s a yahoo group associated with it, you and you can find a link to that on the BatGap site down on this, it’s kind of an obscure, it’s that you have to scroll down, it’s in the right hand column someplace. But David is very active in that yahoo group. And just recently, the whole group seems to have become a bit more active. So if people would like to sort of engage in conversations with you, that might be one place where they can do so I have a comment for him on on your video, not common
David Buckland: for what to call the contact form on the video.ca. website. So people can email me, it depends on what it’s about. I mean, I have expertise in this process, but but not in other areas. So much.
Rick Archer: Yeah. Okay. So, so you don’t see yourself in any kind of a teaching role at this stage in your life or anything?
David Buckland: Well, for me, it’s like I’m living the life and what am I being called to do? And I’m being called the right, so I’m writing and kind of like seeing where life goes, yeah. And it kind of goes in interesting directions. It’s sort of I’m making choices and decisions, like any householder, but at the same time, there’s this deeper flow that’s coming through my life, that is taking it in directions that are not planned or whatever. It’s just kind of surprised, like, I now live on the island, you know, and various things have shifted, that I didn’t anticipate. But
Rick Archer: he will be speaking at the sand conference. David and I are both going to be sharing the same time block at the Science non duality conference in late October 1, I’ll speak and then I’ll introduce David and then he’ll speak we each have about 40 minutes or so.
David Buckland: I’ll be speaking on the stages that’s kind of it’s an important message I think in that environment just to get that process. So when you’re when you’re looking at these old texts, or where as teachers speak And whether it’s speaking from like that,
Rick Archer: yeah. Anything you want to add in conclusion at this stage? Obviously, there’s always more to say and, and you write all kinds of things, and people can subscribe to that and that we covered everything you can sitter to be important in this context.
David Buckland: No. Yeah, there’s so much. There’s so much to it. You know, it’s a big, it’s a big arena.
Rick Archer: Yeah, it’s funny, I did an interview one time about a year ago with someone and her basic point was, I don’t exist, I’m not a person. And whatever I asked, that would be the basic answer after it. It was the shortest interview I ever did after the website. Well, guess there’s not more to talk about here. But you know, what I appreciate about what you your orientation, which some people from that perspective might consider much too complicated and nuanced and detailed, what is all that stuff? You know, I just want nonexistent amount of person, but a lot simpler. But it is, but at the end of the line, either for her or anyone, I just think that, you know, the course of evolution is vast and, and multifarious. And, and I really appreciate the sort of degree to which you have come to experience and understand it. And it’s it’s kind of it’s fulfilling for me to talk with someone who has that orientation. Not that I myself have traversed it to that extent, certainly not. But I know that that the territory exists. And so it’s interesting to talk to someone who has explored that territory in greater detail than I have. And I think it helps the the spiritual culture, as I was saying earlier, in understanding that, it’s, you know, I mean, simplicity is good, but but being simplistic is not and and we want if we’re really interested in understanding reality, then we should be willing to accept that. What is it Jesus said, In my Father’s house are many mansions that reality is far more multifarious and mysterious and detailed and, and vast, then then our little concepts might have done justice to
David Buckland: Yeah, yeah, it’s a astonishingly large place. And I’m sure there’s aspects I’ve never run into or whatever, every so often, I read somebody else talking about something. And it’s like, a whole other side of it, but had never noticed.
Rick Archer: Yeah. So it’s great. It’s great fun to what could be more interesting way to spend one’s life could be more fascinating,
David Buckland: certainly been an adventure.
Rick Archer: Great. Well, let me wrap it up, then. Because we could go on and on. But I think I’m gonna do another interview in few minutes if Claire has arrived. So the sun’s coming out, might have to wear the sunglasses for the next one. But as you know, you’ve been listening to an interview on Buddha at the Gas Pump with David Buckland. And there have been many of these interviews so far, 300, and something and there will hopefully be many, many more. So if you’d like to sort of check out ones done previously, go to batgap.com. Explore the past interviews, menus, some of which David was very instrumental in developing for me, there’s a whole categorical index that he created for for the site. And check out other aspects of the site. You know, it’s all pretty self explanatory. There’s, I never failed to mention the donate button because my engagement in this as extensive as it is, wouldn’t be possible without the support of appreciative viewers. If you’d like to say that I’ve had people notify me in the last few weeks saying, what happened here, I haven’t been posting any interviews lately. There’s a thing where you can sign up to be notified by email each time there’s a new interview, some lady said, I come to the site every day, and there’s no new interview. You don’t have to do that sign up for the thing to be notified with. It’s a new interview, and you’ll get an email when it’s posted. So that menu is there. There’s an audio podcast, because many people don’t like to sit in front of their computers any more than they already do. So you can just listen to this in audio. There’s a subscribe page for that, that lets you sign up on iTunes or Android or different devices. And some other stuff, check out the menus. In fact, there’s things that David helped me develop PV, he even helped put up a page where we have Rick BatGap themes on ringtone following screen saver, screensaver, all kinds of stuff. Maybe I’ll have you working on the t shirt next time. So thanks. So thanks for listening or watching. It’s really been a joy talking with you, David, and we’ll do more. And to those watching. We’ll see you in the next one.