Cynthia Jurs Interview

Summary:

Full transcript:

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of interviews with spiritually awakening people. I’ve done over 500 of them now, and if this is new to you and you’d like to check out previous ones, please go to www.batgap.com, B-A-T-G-A-P, and look at the past interviews menu. I didn’t do my name, I always do that. My name is Rick Archer. This program is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners and viewers, and so, if you appreciate it and would like to help support it, there’s a PayPal button on every page of the site. My guest today is Cynthia Jurs. Cynthia is a Tibetan Buddhist Lama and a Dharmacharya in the order of interbeing of Zen master Thich Nhat Hanh, whose source of refuge and spiritual inspiration is Mother Earth, Gaia. In 1990, she made a life-changing pilgrimage to meet the hermit and meditation master Kushok Mangden Charak Rinpoche, a 106-year-old Lama living in a remote cave in Nepal, from whom she received the practice of the “earth treasure vases”, when she asked him, “What can we do to bring healing and protection to the earth?” For 30 years, Cynthia has been building a global community committed to planetary healing and collective awakening in partnership with elders and activists around the world. Cynthia teaches an innovative blend of engaged Buddhism and sacred activism through the Earth Treasure Vase Global Healing Project, the Open Way Sangha in Santa Fe, New Mexico, and the international Gaia Mandala community. Through her non-profit, Alliance for the Earth, Cynthia has worked with former combatants and the women who stopped a war in Liberia, West Africa, to build peace, teaching mindfulness and co-founding the Peace Hut Alliance for Conflict Transformation. Cynthia’s book, “Summoned by the Earth,” is forthcoming. So welcome Cynthia, good to have you here.

Cynthia: Thank you. Thanks for having me Rick, it’s great to be here.

Rick: Yeah, we’ll have a good conversation. So, the 800-pound gorilla in the room these days is the coronavirus pandemic. As we’re recording this, it’s still gaining momentum around the country. And a lot of people are sort of reading different types of significance into it, and I’m wondering what you might have to say about it.

Cynthia: Yeah, it is an 800-pound gorilla. And just being here with that as our context makes me feel almost on the verge of tears. It’s just so powerful, such a powerful teacher. And I pretty quickly began to call coronavirus “karuna virus.”

Rick: Which means kindness, isn’t it?

Cynthia: Well, it means compassion in Sanskrit. And it just feels to me like this is the great teaching of this particular moment that is, you know, with this virus that is crossing all political boundaries and every kind of boundary we can possibly think of, and coming into the lives of everyone, everywhere, all around the entire planet. The opportunity here is really to come into an experience of compassion and respond from a place that is so much larger than our little selves. I’m a little bit at a loss for words, actually, because it’s so huge. I actually did an I Ching reading this morning, and what came was that it’s a time to let go of the old structures, to let the old structures dissolve so that the new can emerge. And obviously, the structures that we’ve been living within, all the structures are being affected by this little virus that the Earth herself has unleashed. I mean, there’s such incredible wisdom in it on one level, but the terrifying suffering that is also accompanying it is heartbreaking. But if we are asking for, and we are, to bring balance back into the web of life, then big changes are needed. And this is bringing about all of those big changes. So, the other part of it that has been very vivid to me is this whole notion of stopping. And being asked by all the powers that be to stop and go home, come back to ourselves in Thich Nhat Hanh’s language, coming back to ourselves and stopping is actually the first step in creating an opening to something else. You know, if we want to transform, if we want to have any possibility of waking up, whatever that means, we have to be willing to stop and face ourselves and come into an experience of being.

Rick: Yeah, which many of us have been doing intentionally for decades. Now it’s kind of a crash course, I think, for many people.

Cynthia: Mm-hmm, mm-hmm. Well, speaking of Thich Nhat Hanh, you probably have heard this many times, but I was actually there when he said it, which was this whole idea of the next Buddha being a sangha. So, the idea that we’re in the process of a collective awakening, that it’s no longer the time of the individual, really. And so, we’re all in this together.

Rick: Yeah.

Cynthia: You know?

Rick: And of course, spiritual and new-agey type people have been speaking for a long time about a collective awakening that seems to be just over the next horizon. And on this show, I’ve often said, “Well, I just have a feeling this thing is coming, I just don’t know how.” And when it does, or for it to come, there’s going to have to be a huge restructuring, a lot of … because there’s so many things that dominate our economy and politics and industry and everything else that really have no place in a more enlightened world. So how are those things going to be transformed or replaced or something? There could be a lot of tumult when this actually happens. And I certainly don’t think the end of it, because if everyone were to wake up healthy tomorrow, it would be back to business as usual. And so perhaps this thing has lessons yet to teach us.

Cynthia: Well, yeah, and I think the last thing we want is to go back to the way that it was. This is an amazing opening, amazing opportunity for us collectively to stop, and in the stopping to look deeply at what’s working and what’s not working. And we can’t even see it if we’re continuing to go on and on and on in our same old ways. And we’re, as collectively, we’re so habituated and conditioned to just operating in that same old way. It’s very hard to break through those habits, those patterns. And so, an opportunity like this is providing a way for us to actually do that.

Rick: Yeah, one metaphor which has come to my mind is that of a trim tab. You know what a trim tab is?

Cynthia: I sort of do, on a boat.

Rick: Yeah, on a boat’s rudder or a plane’s rudder. It’s a little thing that kind of helps to move the bigger thing. So, there’s a lot of force pushing against a rudder or an airplane, on a plane or a boat, and it would be hard to move, but this trim tab sort of moves out in the opposite direction and it creates a force that pushes the rudder the way they want it to go. And the big rudder, in my opinion, is climate change in terms of the potential devastation it could result in. And we’re ignoring it, pretty much. We’re not doing the stuff that we need to do so urgently, according to all the experts. So perhaps this is a trim tab or a small thing, by comparison, even though it’s not trivial, that at the end of it we might think, “Phew, well we got through that. Now what other disasters might be looming on the horizon that we’re not paying enough attention to? Oh yeah, climate change. Let’s do something. We better do something now. We’ve learned our lesson about a stitch in time saves nine.”

Cynthia: Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I don’t know how small of a thing this is. I think it’s intimately connected with climate change and the imbalance within all systems of the planet, resulting in our immune system having a breakdown and having the release of this new virus upon us, that we have to look at the imbalances in the world that we’ve created. And even to the point of jobs and everything that’s also coming to a screeching halt, some of these jobs, maybe when people stop long enough to take a look, they’re going to realize, “Is that really what I want to be doing? Is that really contributing to a better world?” And that’s certainly a prayer. And another prayer is really, with the loss of life, that these lives that are being sacrificed are not in vain. That there is the potential for the loved ones around those whose lives are being lost to look even more deeply at why this is happening and how we go on from here in new ways.

Rick: Yeah, good point. Okay, well maybe we’ll come back to this. I don’t know if I have anything more to say about it at the moment, but it’s something that we’re all thinking about a lot, and hopefully we’re not just living in fear. There’s a great line I heard, remember that � I don’t know if you’ve watched many movies, but there’s that movie Bridge of Spies that had Tom Hanks in it. And there’s a guy who won, I think he won the Oscar for Best Supporting Actor, I don’t remember his name, but there was one point at which he and Tom Hanks are sitting talking and the guy is going to be executed for having been caught as a spy. And he’s sitting there casually smoking a cigarette and Tom Hanks says, “You don’t seem to be worried. Shouldn’t you be worried? You might get executed, and maybe you should be worried.” And the guy says, “Would that help?” You know?

Cynthia: Right, right.

Rick: And so, I don’t think that fear is helpful in this circumstance, but you can be extremely conscientious and doing all the right things and yet not experiencing an iota of fear.

Cynthia: Right, fear is the mind killer, right?

Rick: Yeah.

Cynthia: Dune, that’s another line. And I had an experience once when I took one of the Earth Treasure Vases to Mali, the first country in Africa. I went there guided by a dream, and I had a dream that told me that the pathway to peace in Africa was through the Dogon people in Mali. And I took the first treasure vase for Africa to this Dogon elder, and it was amazing life experience and asked for his blessing. And he did a divination about the whole practice and everything. And at the end of the whole time, well, I felt like I was just sitting in the presence of such a beautiful, wise being. And I said to him, what was on my heart at the time, I said, “What about this urgency that I feel about the world situation?” At the time, I was just possessed. And of course, I guess I still am, but I was possessed with the assignment that I had been given and I felt this sense of extreme urgency to get these little clay pots in the ground. And he turned and he looked at me and he said, “Urgency, we don’t really have that here.” You know, and my mind just stopped, everything fell away and I realized how useless it is to be caught up by that sense of urgency. And the same about fear, you know, it doesn’t help. And I think that’s also part of this stopping, you know. Of course, the situation is urgent. We are in a very dire situation in every way we can possibly think of. And yet, when we allow ourselves to be governed by that sense of, “Oh my God, urgent, urgent, urgent,” or, you know, “fear, fear, fear”, we just go around and around and around and keep on perpetuating the same old problems. So, it’s when we stop and take a breath and, you know, let things just settle, even for a moment, when we begin to have the possibility of a little glimpse of something else, you know.

Rick: Yeah, and the funny thing is, you can be in a situation which might appear to demand urgency, and you’re playing a very dynamic, important role, and yet subjectively you can be not only not feeling fear, but also not feeling any sense of urgency. In other words, just going with the flow, and yet really focusing and doing something about the situation.

Cynthia: Yeah, and that is, I think, what happens when we fully enter the present moment, when we’re just right here with all of ourselves, we are able to respond clearly and skilfully to whatever is going on. And so that’s an art, and it’s a practice to get to that place. And it can be done like that, if we are willing to just stop and show up.

Rick: Yeah. So, “established in being, perform action,” as it says in the Gita. So, we’ve gotten ahead of ourselves a little bit, because you’ve mentioned taking earth treasure vases to Africa, and we haven’t really explained what they are yet. So, let’s talk about your whole path with this. We could even take it a bit chronologically if you’d like. You ended up getting this assignment in the mountains of Nepal, but what were you doing in the mountains of Nepal? I mean, what led up to you having this encounter with a 106-year-old monk?

Cynthia: Well, I was already pretty deeply involved in Buddhism. This was 1990 when I met the 106-year-old Lama. I’d been practicing since the ’80s. So Thich Nhat Hanh was my kind of root teacher, but I had a very deep interest in Tibetan Buddhism as well. And so, I was kind of following that.

Rick: He’s more of a Zen teacher, isn’t he? Thich Nhat Hanh.

Cynthia: Thich Nhat Hanh is from Vietnam. He’s a Zen teacher, yeah. But his form of Zen is kind of slightly more Vipassana-ish than very strict Japanese Zen, for example. But I love Thich Nhat Hanh because of his teachings of what he calls “engaged Buddhism,” which really speaks to me. That whole notion that we can have these wonderful experiences on our cushion, but if we’re not actually taking it out into the world and contributing, then what good is it? So that is something that I took to heart when I met him originally, and I love about his teachings. I also love his teachings for their simplicity. So anyway, I had been practicing with him and also taking more and more of an interest in Tibetan Buddhism, and I knew someone who wanted to go meet this old lama who lived in the cave and had heard about him. And when I heard about him myself, I asked if I could go along. And so, I was given permission to go along. But it was one of those kinds of like, “I have to go. I have to go on this trip.” And so, but I don’t know if that’s enough background. There’s tons of other background I could give you on what…

Rick: That’s good. I mean, anything you think is significant.

Cynthia: Yeah, yeah.

Rick: I mean, you know, sometimes we go way back to like what got you involved or interested in spirituality in the first place, and sometimes people have interesting answers to that, and you just say, “Well, I just kind of stumbled into it or felt that way when they were a kid and then they got mixed up as a teenager and then kind of rediscovered it when they were a little older.” You know, there’s all sorts of stories like that.

Cynthia: Yeah, yeah. Well, anyway, so maybe it’ll weave in because there’s other things I could say.

Rick: Okay, as they come to mind.

Cynthia: But in any case, yeah, I was walking up the path to this very remote cave in the high mountains of Nepal, and I kind of like realized all of a sudden, “Oh, this is sort of a unique opportunity, Cynthia. You’re actually going to meet the old wise man in the cave. What are you going to ask him?” And then I was realizing that I should really have a question that is not just for myself, but for all of us, because not everybody’s going to have such an opportunity, and I should make the most of it. So, I stumbled along the path, continued to stumble along the path and contemplating what in the world I would ask him. And what came to me finally was my deepest question, which was, “what can we do to bring healing and protection to the Earth?” And at the time, this was, as I said, 1990. I don’t know if you remember the film that came out about the Kogi people called “The Elder Brothers Warning, Message from the Heart of the World”.

Rick: Yeah, I either watched it or read enough about it to get what they’re saying, but go ahead and tell us about it.

Cynthia: Yeah, well, there was a book also besides the film by the filmmaker about their message. And these are people, many of your listeners probably already know about the Kogi, but they consider themselves to be the elder brothers and sisters of the whole Earth. Their purpose is to maintain balance and harmony in what they consider the heart of the world, which is the mountains of Colombia. And so, they have a very interesting worldview and many of their leaders, elders, are taken into darkness for the first many number of years of their lives and are trained as visionaries. And anyway, they came out, they had chosen to separate themselves from the whole rest of the world in order to maintain their way of being.

Rick: Their culture, yeah.

Cynthia: Their culture, and they came out to deliver this message because things were getting so out of balance. So that message got to me and was one of the wake-up calls that I received. Another wake-up call that I received came through my great friend and mentor Joanna Macy, who at the time back then was very focused on nuclear guardianship. And the whole idea that the radioactive waste that is produced from the production of nuclear weapons and other such things is poisoning, excuse me, poisoning the fabric of the web of life in ways that we can’t see and also live for extremely long periods of time.

Rick: Yeah, hundreds of thousands of years.

Cynthia: Hundreds of thousands of years. And so I live in New Mexico.

Rick: And we’re storing them in rotten 55 gallon drums in some places that are corroding.

Cynthia: Well yes, exactly. And at that time, living here in New Mexico across the Rio Grande Valley from the Los Alamos National Laboratory, which is the birthplace of the atomic bomb, we were trying to stop the waste isolation pilot plant, which is where they store radioactive waste underground in salt caverns near Carlsbad, which is a major tourist site with these caverns. And Joanna was talking about the need to wake up to these substances and how do we care for them over these long, long periods of time into the future and how they will be impacting the earth and all of life. And we lost the fight against WIPP, the Waste Isolation Pilot Plant, and that was pretty devastating to come to terms with what this means for us all and for future generations. And so anyway, I was grappling with these things as I was walking up the path. And so that was part of my motivation in asking the question, what do we do to bring healing and protection to the earth? Not just sort of in a vague way, but in relationship to things like radioactive waste. And then since then, that being 1990, things have unfolded unfortunately even more in going out of balance. So, but anyway, I had the opportunity to ask this question of the old Lama. And I lived with him for a couple of weeks before I had the chance to talk to him. And finally, one day, the moment arose and he asked me about what life was like here. And so, he’d never been anywhere else other than where he was from. And so, when I asked him that question, he said, “Even just one person can bring benefit to the whole area around where they live.” He said, “But you, you need to get these earth treasure vases and you need to put them in the ground and they will do that work.” And my rational mind kind of went, right, how’s a little clay pot filled with prayers and symbolic offerings and buried in the earth going to deal with the kinds of things that we have to confront?

Rick: You have one right there by the way.

Cynthia: I do. So, this is,

Rick: So this is all decorated a little bit.

Cynthia: It’s all decorated. So, this is what I call the mama vessel. It’s the last of the original treasure vases that I was given at the time. And then later I received a second generation that are about half this size. And so, you can see under the silks that it’s a clay pot. Maybe I’ll undo it.

Rick: And this is an ancient tradition, isn’t it? I mean, you’re not the first person to do the thing, to bury these things, but it’s an ancient Tibetan practice.

Cynthia: Yes, this is what’s called a Terma. It’s a practice that goes back to the eighth century. It was brought forward by Guru Rinpoche, Padmasambhava, as a remedy to restore balance and harmony to the earth and to all the living systems in the area where one of these is buried. And so, they’re filled with, I mean, the Tibetans fill them with very specific offerings and prayers and consecrate them. And in our case, because they had to travel halfway around the world to get to us, the lamas were concerned about, you know, then once they’re filled and sealed, which normally the monks in the monasteries would do all of that. And we might, you know, it’s not like a big up front and center practice that is done a lot, or that we would do.

Rick: But you’re not going to get them through customs without having it open.

Cynthia: No, no. So anyway, because of the sort of importance of what I was pointing to around what these needed to address in our times, the lamas decided to gather all these sacred substances and relics and medicines and mix it into the clay and then make the pots and consecrate them and give them to us to fill and seal and bury, which is really unusual because normally, as I say, they have very specific ways they would do all of this. But because they consecrated them with all of these sacred substances and stuff, it was kind of like basically what they said was, “Just put them in the ground, they’ll do the work.” You know, and again, my rational mind was sort of going, “Really? How is that possible? How is that really going to make such a difference?” But the other part of me thought, “Well, okay, you know, this is what’s coming to me. This is the answer that I was given to my question, so I need to do this.” And so what’s so interesting to me about it is that these little holy vessels, they are really like living beings. Once they start to get filled, they take on so much energy, so much intention, because what happens is that people pour their hearts into this little vessel, no matter what culture or spiritual tradition or where they’re coming from. And I have been all around the whole planet with this practice and been very surprised, actually, that everywhere I go, people go, “Oh, yes, they understand.” And so, what happens is people pour their deepest love, their deepest caring about the place that they care about into a little pot, and the pot takes on all of that energy. And I said at the beginning, this is a Terma practice. Termas are teachings that are given, you know, maybe they come forward way back when, but they sort of lie dormant until such time as they’re really needed, and then they arise again. And so, this practice is one of those, and clearly this practice is made for these times that we’re living in now. And I feel as if the way in which we were given this practice to fill and seal and bury them ourselves has actually brought the Terma to life in a way that other lineages, please forgive me for saying this, but other lineages, and there are many others that are carrying out this practice as well, may not have had quite the same kind of an experience because it’s all been done for them by the monks. And so, what’s happened here is that, for example, when I took a vase to Africa, to Liberia, and the people there engaged with it, which is a whole story, if we have time for, I’d love to share.

Rick: We do, we have time.

Cynthia: Yeah, so when people from different cultures engage with it and make their own offerings, they’re often things, they put things inside that the lamas never would have put, but that are meaningful, deeply meaningful in those cultures and communities. And so then it carries, it just carries so much more meaning and it awakens something in each person who is involved. And there have been thousands and thousands now all around the whole planet.

Rick: Thousands and thousands of people involved, right, not thousands of pots, but thousands of people.

Cynthia: No, thousands of people, and there will be 70 locations when we’re done, and we have But it has brought it to life anyway, maybe that’s enough on all of that for the moment.

Rick: That’s good. And so, at the course of this conversation I’ll have you tell us some of the places that you’ve buried them and some of the more memorable stories. There’s a documentary I watched of you in Africa with an Aborigine woman doing one there, and I heard your story about Africa, but we’ll have you tell that for the viewers also.

Cynthia: Okay, yeah, I’d love to.

Rick: And so, over these, you know, you said that initially you were kind of skeptical, like you know, how could this have an effect, and now you’re convinced that it does, I believe. What is your understanding now, it must have refined a lot over the years, of the actual mechanics through which these things could have an effect, or do have an effect?

Cynthia: You know, I don’t know how to answer that question. You know, I honestly can’t say, I don’t really engage too much in magical thinking, even though you know, it’s kind of a…

Rick: It’s a magical universe, so you know.

Cynthia: Well, yeah, but you know, I don’t know a lot. I just know that things happen around these little vessels. When people make their most heartfelt offerings, and they get in touch with what they love and care about, and they pour that out, first of all, it’s kind of alchemical. And it combines with all the other offerings, all the other prayers that have been made. And there’s a meditation that we do that is a visualization also, that facilitates the practice. But I think really, bottom line is that people come into an experience of actually being a vessel themselves. And so, over the years, while these little clay pots have been, you know, the reason for my own intense motivation to bring the healing and the protection to the Earth that it’s called for, and the renewal, and to engage with communities all over the planet in all kinds of ways, in the end, what is most important is that we realize that we are each a holy vessel. As Joanna Macy was the first to point out, we are each a holy vessel. And we are each filled with so much beauty and goodness and compassion, speaking of Karuna, you know, the compassion that is our greatest gift as human beings to offer into the world. And when we connect with that, we’re unstoppable, you know? And that is the beauty, you know, and that is the gift. So, I think there have been many, many, many things that have happened with these little clay pots, and some are tangible, and many of them are quite intangible. But it doesn’t mean they’re not having an effect.

Rick: Oh yeah. I hadn’t heard of these until I saw you speak at the S.A.N.D. Conference last October, but I don’t know, it’s not a big leap of rationality or faith for me to think that this could have an effect. I mean, I’m kind of comfortable with the idea that objects can be imbued with some kind of subtle influence, and probably everybody’s heard of that Japanese researcher with the water, how, you know, the thoughts he thinks or the music he plays or whatever imbues the water with some kind of quality, you know, either coherent or incoherent, beautiful or ugly. And there are icons or temples in India which people have been pouring their devotion into for thousands of years, which I haven’t actually visited any of them, but I have friends who have who say it’s really powerful, you know, when you get in the presence of that thing. And so, I can think of these things as being like little transmitters that you’ve been planting around the world.

Cynthia: Exactly, exactly.

Rick: Yeah, which you can kind of visualize the earth with like little transmitters all over the place beaming out. And we are also transmitters of course, but why not have varying kinds of transmitters?

Cynthia: Well, yeah, yeah, and I think we need all the help we can get. So why not? That was where I went with it, is like, “Okay, well, my rational mind may not understand this, but why not? Let’s try it, let’s see what happens.” And the more I did it, well, it took me quite a few years actually of them sitting in my closet before I realized, “Okay, I have these, I better do something with them.” I was very overwhelmed by the assignment when I received it and it was like, “Oh my God, no, I can’t do that.” But then, you know, the earth started really basically screaming and forest fires and all the droughts and everything else going on, and finally it was like, “Well, we have to pull these out and start working with them.” And then amazing things started happening. And I think one of the keys in working with a practice like this is that we have to get out of our own way. And maybe this is true across the board, you know, that we think that we know what to do or where to go or how to fix whatever it is. And I’ll tell you in my own experience, every time I thought that I knew anything at all about these, I would usually get stopped in my tracks. And then I would have to just open again, you know, like to the whole notion of being the vessel and in a sense empty my own agenda and allow for something so much larger to guide the process. And you know, that was true. People often say, “Well, how did you decide where to take them?” And it was not a process of conceptual thinking. You know, I would have an idea or we, I have a sangha here and we would meet and we would practice with these. And I, again, would think I had the idea of where one should go and then something else would happen or it would just come about in such different ways, you know. And it’s a little bit like the Lord of the Rings with “My Precious,” you know. And people can get very attached to these because they’re power objects, actually, you know. And then it gives me self-importance. But that’s not what we’re doing here, you know. That is not at all what we’re doing here. We are practicing to release our attachment to a sense of self and offer ourselves into something so much larger. And when we do, then that’s where the magic can happen.

Rick: Ah, yeah, I was just going to say, speaking again of Lord of the Rings, you know, Frodo didn’t really want to leave the shire. He was all comfy and cozy and he had his little routines there and he hated the notion of big, scary adventures. So, it’s kind of like you with the pots in the closet, you know. It’s like, you know, you had to kind of work up your courage and gumption before getting out there and doing it.

Cynthia: Yeah, that’s right. Where that really, where the sort of rubber met the road was when I realized I had to go to Africa. And in the beginning of this whole thing, I gave a lot of them to other people to take, people who came forward and said, well, what about a vase for such and such or such and such? And it would be like, yeah, that’s great. Here, you do it. Because I was so overwhelmed, but eventually I realized this is what I need to do. This is what I’m born to do. And I took it up in earnest. And when I went to Africa is when I had to really face the suffering of the world in a way that I never had before.

Rick: Yeah, tell the whole Africa story. That was a good one.

Cynthia: Well, there’s two, several Africa stories. There’s Liberia, which is where we started, and then there’s Congo. And both of them are very important. Liberia, it was just recovering from a really brutal civil war. And that country had elected the first woman president, Ellen Johnson Sirleaf. It was the women who stopped the war in Liberia.

Rick: Yeah, tell that too. That’s interesting.

Cynthia: Well, it is interesting because it’s a model. The war was going on for a very long time, 13 years. And finally, the women had had enough. Muslim and Christian women joined together, which is quite unusual. And they started going out on the street and demonstrating peacefully to stop the war. And there’s actually a really good film called “Pray the Devil Back to Hell” about the women’s peace movement and the ending of the war in Liberia. Anyway, I came in after the war had ended through an organization called the “Everyday Gandhis”, and they were doing peace building work to, in a way, ceremonially recover from the war with elders in the north of Liberia, where it was the worst fought area of the war. And I was invited to bring a treasure vase there. I didn’t even know where Liberia was, actually. It’s a small country in between Ghana and Sierra Leone and Guinea. And anyway, I went there, and I had brought the treasure vase into a ceremony with a lot of Liberians in this group, Everyday Gandihs, here in the US. And then they had poured their prayers into that vase. And when it came back to me, I realized, okay, this is where we’re going in Africa. It took me about a year to raise the money and get together the journey to go there. And on my way, I went and met this Dogon elder I told you about a little bit ago. And then I went on to Liberia from Mali. And I travelled up into this northern part of the country, which is where the war was particularly bad, and met a whole community of people who were very captivated by the notion of this treasure vase. And in order to know whether the vase would be accepted, they had to ask the ancestors whether they should allow it to be buried there. And so, the women went into a ceremonial dance, drumming and dancing. And eventually, one of the ancestors came through one of the women and said, “Yes, this is a very important thing, and you should do it.” And I’ve travelled all this way. I’m on the edge of my seat going, “Well, if they say it’s not such a great idea, then I got to go home.” And I don’t go anywhere with an agenda of what people should do, because it’s just an offering. But in any case, they said yes. And then elders from three countries came together around this treasure vase, because everyone had been so affected by the war. And there’s three countries, Guinea, Sierra Leone, and Liberia, who all share a border in that region. And people came from all three countries to pour their hearts into this little clay pot. And there were traditional ceremonies done and sacrifice of animal to eat together and dances and everything. And then eventually, it was time for the ceremony with the vase. And there were probably 500 people in a large gymnasium who came together and made offerings and prayers into the vase. And the ceremony went on for hours and hours and hours. And people didn’t leave. They were there, little kids and old people and everything in between, and the mayor and all the dignitaries and the elders from all the different tribes and everyone. It was just amazing. And then there was the burial in the village that had been the village of the chief, who was the ancestor that had given permission for this. And when the vase was buried, there was a small group of us who were there for the burial. And the elders that were there turned to me after it went in the ground and said, “Well, now what? This was really important to us. We need to remember these prayers.” And it’s not for me to say what happens anywhere, because this is their land and this is their community and culture. And so, I kind of threw it back on them. And there was a gentleman who I had got to know who was actually one of the… He was a rebel general in the war. And he commanded 30,000 troops in that part of Liberia, child soldiers and everything. And when he and I met for the first time, he asked me to teach him how to meditate. And I couldn’t believe he was serious because of his history. And he wouldn’t take no for an answer. He pursued me for a few years before I relented to actually go, “Okay, yes, I’ll work with you.” And so Bethelson is his name, and Bethelson had the idea to build a peace hut, which is a traditional round structure in that part of Africa where people gather to pray and to resolve conflict and to come together and reconcile differences. And so, they decided they wanted to build a peace hut in that part of where the treasure vase was buried. And so, we raised the money and they built the peace hut. And then I went back for the dedication of the peace hut. And at the end of that, the people in the village said, “Well, this is all great. The treasure vase is great. Yeah, we like that. The peace hut is great, but what we really need is water. We need fresh, clean water. And we’re all getting sick because the water is so dirty and we have to walk many miles and it’s all the women who have to do that.” And so, then we left and went back and raised the money for them to dig a well. And now Bethelson was the one to oversee the digging of the well in the community and bring life back into the land. So now we have, over these last 10 years, built five peace huts in five conflict-prone regions of Liberia and five wells. And they are all in regions where there’s still a lot of conflict. Liberia is not a stable place. It was for a while, but it’s not anymore. But Bethelson is an example of someone whose life has been completely transformed by all of this. And he went from being a trained killer, rebel leader, and military commander to a soldier of peace.

Rick: So, he’s no longer a military man.

Cynthia: No, no, no. When the war ended, all of the combatants had to lay down their weapons. And so he was out of work when I met him and when the Everyday Gandhis met him. And he didn’t know what to do. Like so many, all of these guys, super traumatized, carrying a lot of PTSD and a lot of shame, and being rejected by their families and their communities for what they did, and no way to put rice on the table. So, he was on his way to volunteer as a, what do you call them?

Rick: Mercenary.

Cynthia: Mercenary, yeah, thank you, in another country. And that’s when he met the Everyday Gandhis, and they invited him to become a peace builder. And he accepted. And so, he did this 180-degree turnaround. And then he met me and began to meditate. And the meditation that I taught him was the practice of mindfulness in the way of Thich Nhat Hanh. Thich Nhat Hanh’s teachings being extremely helpful for people coming out of war. I mean, Vietnam being a former war zone, Thich Nhat Hanh knows a lot about peace building. And so, the healing that has happened for Bethelson through the practice of mindfulness has been utterly phenomenal to witness. And he’s now, he and a couple of other people that are on this team had founded the Peace Hut Alliance for Conflict Transformation in Liberia, are really leaders in bringing awareness to the violence and the instability that’s still going on there and teaching people about peace.

Rick: That’s interesting.

Cynthia: So, anyway.

Rick: Yeah, it’s kind of like you think, okay, maybe this is all a consequence of the earth treasure vase that was buried. And it’s just playing out in a different way than you might visualize when you first think about it. Maybe everybody in the vicinity gets a little bit more peaceful, but it set into motion this chain of events, which has had a big impact.

Cynthia: It has, it has, it has, it has. The other place that was very powerful in Africa is Congo. And I was sort of in a place in my life at that time when I was going over to Africa that I would be kind of like going out, having these powerful adventures and then coming back and being in retreat here in this space for months at a time. And then practicing deeply and then going back out and doing another treasure vase. And I would look at the map of the world while I was on retreat in this deep meditative space. And I would say, okay, where now? And when I was going to Africa, I would look at the continent and I would kind of go like this and point at the map.

Rick: Dora the Explorer.

Cynthia: Yeah, and I would look and it would be Congo. And it would be just the heart of Africa. And I would go, Congo. And I would read this over and over again. I would go, I don’t wanna go to Congo. Isn’t that like the worst place in the world you can go? And so, I would sort of brush it aside and then I would go back and the same thing would happen over and over. And then I met Dr. Denis Mukwege, who is the doctor that won the Nobel Peace Prize finally. Eve Ensler, the founder of V-Day and One Billion Rising brought him in a way to us. He’s the doctor in Congo that has specialized in sewing up the bodies of women who have been brutally raped. And Congo being considered, it’s a terrible title, but the rape capital of the world. It’s a place that no one wants to talk about. It’s a place where the genocide that happened in Rwanda has now spilled over into Congo and continues. Four million people have died. It’s a place where the most minerals on earth can be found, including coltan, which is the mineral that fuels all of our cell phone technology and computer technology and is in great demand. And all being done without any kind of proper controls, monitoring. So, Congo was a place that when I learned about what was happening there, felt like I had to take a treasure vase there. And because of my own personal experience of rape, I was very much called to wanting to address that issue, both in women and in relationship to the earth, because there’s actually no separation. Our bodies are the earth and the earth is our bodies and how we treat women and how women are raped in every family, in every country, in every culture around the whole earth is a reflection of how we treat mother earth.

Rick: Same mentality applied to just on a different scale or in a different way.

Cynthia: Right. Yeah, so I was pretty compelled to take a treasure vase to Congo and I didn’t know how I could possibly do it. And long story short, I ended up just going on my own. And I met a woman by the name of Neema Namadamu, who I got to know through a wonderful organization called World Pulse. And she was a correspondent at the time with World Pulse. She’s from Eastern Congo. She has become a great leader herself. But when I met her, she was just starting out and she welcomed me and she took me everywhere. And she brought me into many, many situations where the treasure vase could be received. And we also did media training programs for women, teaching them how to share their voices with the world and be heard and to stand up for change in Congo. And then we took the treasure vase to the Pygmy people, who are the indigenous people of that part of the world, one of the oldest cultures on earth. And it was my prayer and request that we bring the vase after doing many ceremonies with all of these, mainly women, but not only women, to the Pygmy leaders, who are the people of the forest, Congo being a country that has the second largest rainforest in the world outside of Brazil, so, so important to the health of the whole planet. And so, we had a really wonderful reception with this Pygmy community who allowed us to come in and bring the treasure vase. And I actually have a husband, a Pygmy husband over there who was kind enough to present me with such a great welcome and opening. It was just a wonderful, wonderful being. Anyway, the vase was buried.

Rick: The way you said that, I made it sound like he was your husband, but no, you’re not saying that.

Cynthia: He’s not my real husband.

Rick: No, it was a- >> He’s like your blood brother or something.

Cynthia: Yeah, he’s my just darling beloved, but it was funny because when we arrived, I was given gifts and they prepared the most amazing meal for us I’ve ever eaten in my life. They’re all hunter gatherers, so everything was gathered wild. And Neema and her husband, Danny, and several others were with us, including a Pygmy leader from Rwanda who accompanied us and we were all gathered around and they gave us this beautiful meal. And then they brought out these gifts and one of the gifts was a woven mat, a sleeping mat. And so, this gentleman demonstrated that the mat is also where husband and wife sleep together. And everybody, he was giving it to me and so everybody was just giggling and laughing so much because of the implications. So that’s how he became my husband.

Rick: I see.

Cynthia: So anyway, we did a beautiful ceremony there and when we were driving from the village where we were staying to the village where the vase was to be buried in the forest, it was beautiful because I was sitting with Neema in the front seat of her car, her husband was driving. And we looked at each other and we realized, okay, this is the moment when we’re going now to bury the vase. And we nodded at each other and kind of went, right, okay, we’re here. And I looked up and flying right in front of the car was a white dove, appeared in front of the vehicle and flew in front of us as we drove into this village. And this is a very Christian country. And so, to have the Holy Spirit appear in that way in that moment was really a big sign that we were there, we were right there. And then the experience of burying the treasure vase in the forest with those people was a highlight of my life. And out of that came many things, out of that whole experience came many things. Neema, this woman I was with, founded something called Hero Women Rising. She now directs an international NGO that supports women in Congo to find their voices. And much I could say about her, she’s really a global leader. And that was very gratifying to help launch her in a way and to see these women being able to transform their lives. And then the other thing that happened was that the Women’s Earth and Climate Action Network began a tree planting initiative through Hero Women Rising in Eastern Congo. And many, many women now in that part of Congo are planting trees to restore the forest, which has been greatly reduced over the last numbers of years. And when I was in the process of introducing the treasure vase to the Pygmy people in the forest at that moment, I had one of those whole earth flags that I use as an altar cloth, and I held it up and I pointed, I said, “This is America and this is Congo, and your trees are providing oxygen that we breathe in America.” And they didn’t know that. Nobody, and there were hundreds of people there, nobody knew that before. And even Neema, who is a highly educated woman in her country, didn’t really quite realize the connection. And so Neema took that ball and ran with it, and that started this whole tree planting program in Congo that continues to this day. So, there’s another tangible example of something that can happen from a little clay pot filled with prayers.

Rick: Yeah, it’s cool. I mean, some people might say, “Well, the pot itself isn’t having any influence,” but the fact that you go and plant it there sets the ball rolling in terms of all these relationships and interactions. But I think both could be true. The pot is sort of like a physical emissary for getting something going, but at the same time it itself has an influence that if you were planting, if you went there and just, I don’t know, planted a six-pack of Coca-Cola or something, it wouldn’t have the same effect. It has a kind of a deep significance that actually materializes as something quite profoundly. I imagine that these are some of the more dramatic stories, and there are probably some that weren’t that earth-shaking, but these are cool.

Cynthia: Yeah, each one. It’s a different story everywhere I went, and it continues because now we have a second generation of treasure vases going out through people who are learning the practice themselves and taking the vases where they need to go. Each one of them has a powerful force behind it.

Rick: Let me just pause for a second and say to Dan that I think he’s sending these chats to me, but he needs to send them in through the group discussion that we have Dan, Larry, and Cynthia in, those three, and then I will see them. But if you send them just to my Skype thing, I’m not seeing them because I’m connected to Cynthia right now. So a question? I; No, just two questions.

Rick: Yeah, just two questions so far. So, hang on a second here. You can read them if you want to read them, otherwise I think Dan will send them to me properly in a minute. Otherwise, I’ll have you read them. So, in terms of picking out places, I mean do you kind of follow the world situation a little bit and think, “Oh, this, this.” Like for instance, the other day after I was already listening to your previous interviews and recordings, I saw this article about how there’s this huge ice shelf in Antarctica and it’s getting more and more unstable, and if it were to slide into the ocean it would raise sea levels about five feet, you know, around the whole world. And I was thinking, “Geez, I wonder if Cynthia should plant an earth treasure base in Antarctica?”

Cynthia: Well, actually we have one dedicated to Antarctica.

Rick: Oh, good.

Cynthia: It’s on my altar.

Rick: Okay.

Cynthia: Yeah, yeah.

Rick: Put down there some summer. Yeah, there’s a- >> Their summer, not ours.

Cynthia: Right. Jeff Vander Kloot is an associate of mine and colleague, and he has taken on the stewardship of that treasure vase to Antarctica, and he’s very called to wanting to take a vase there. So it’s something that he’s looking for the best way to go there and get there and when and how and all of that. Of course, it’s a place in the world that is a bit challenging to get to, but feels like, yeah, a treasure base is very much needed there. And we’re with these last vases or vases that we’re distributing, we’re really looking, there’s a council of us now, not just me, but a whole council of folks, many of whom have stewarded treasure vases themselves now. And so, know what that experience is of taking one somewhere, which is very demanding. We’re looking deeply at the whole earth and where we’ve been with the practice and where we haven’t been and how we might fill in some of the missing pieces so that it really is, you know, embracing the whole earth.

Rick: I’ve heard you tick off the list of places where you’ve been. It sounds like some of them might be restorative or healing. You’ve been to places like Hiroshima and like you were just telling us about Liberia, and others might be sort of more sacred places where you just want to have perhaps a profound influence, like the source of the Rio Grande River or the mouth of it where it enters the Gulf of Mexico, places that you feel were somehow strategically significant.

Cynthia: Well, sources of rivers are traditionally very good places.

Rick: Yeah, sources of the Ganges, you went to Gangotri.

Cynthia: Sources of the Ganges, source of the Amazon, source of the Rio Grande. So yeah, because they say that the flow of the river carries the prayers, the whole length of the river. So that’s why sources of rivers are very good. You know, the base of a mighty tree is a very good place. And one of the treasure vases that’s being dedicated right now is going into the Amazon with Tree Sisters, the organization founded by Claire Dubois, and she is co-stewarding that treasure vase with us into a part of the Amazon that is still very intact, and where Tree Sisters is now initiating a new tree planting program.

Rick: And for those listening, I had Claire Dubois on the program a couple of weeks ago, so, if you’d like to listen to that, you’ll find her on that.

Cynthia: Yeah, yeah. So, it’s a little bit challenging now with the coronavirus stopping us in our tracks from traveling, so we’re listening for how these remaining vases will get where they need to go. But I completely trust that that will happen one way or another. I’m stewarding one myself to Greece. Each one, as I say, has a very different energy or purpose. The treasure vase for Greece is going as an offering near Delphi, Delphi being the place where the Oracle of Gaia was received by the priestesses pre-patriarchy. And so, to go there and to make this offering to her, you know, and to really pray for the healing of the oppression that came about with the patriarchal system that has been governing the world for so long.

Rick: Yeah, let’s shift to that topic. I heard you say in one talk that you like to think of the Buddha as a woman. And another comment you made regarding Buddhism is that although you have quite a involved Buddhist background, it’s hard for you to even think of yourself as a Buddhist anymore. And what I thought you meant by that was that you become more universal and so you don’t quite fit into any cubbyhole. But let’s talk a bit about patriarchy. We talked quite a bit about that with Claire a couple weeks ago, and I’ve also interviewed Mirabai Starr about that topic quite a bit. And so tell us what you have to say about that, the shift that needs to take place and the balance between the masculine and feminine energies in the world.

Cynthia: Well, it’s a huge, huge topic. Huge, huge topic.

Rick: We have time.

Cynthia: Yeah, I know, but thank you because this is kind of at the core. You know, as I’ve gone around the world with these treasure vases into cultures and communities all around the planet, there’s a few core wounds that are needing healing in order to reestablish balance in the world for us to move forward in a way that is in harmony. And one of those core wounds is the oppression of the feminine. And so, at that place, at the heart of what is calling for healing is this relationship between the masculine and the feminine. And the vase, you know, is a very interesting symbol because it’s very womb-like, right? And you remove the opening and you place in these offerings, and so it’s a very much already right there, the masculine and the feminine coming together, joining with this intention for healing and balance and harmony. And then this is then a hole is dug into the body of the earth, and this is placed into it as an offering. And then it is covered like a seed and placed there for all time, you know? And so, the practice is very much symbolically about that balance and that coming together and that joining. But for me, I mean, I’ve been involved with the Buddhist teachings and many, many Buddhist teachers for the bulk of my adult life, and it is a very patriarchal system, like many of the world religions. And the notion of the guru, especially in Tibetan Buddhism, is problematic, actually. And there is such a power differential when you have a teacher who is assuming the position of guru, and you are basically told to believe that that person, that human person, is omniscient and infallible, and an embodiment of the Buddha, you know, or whatever lineage or tradition you’re coming from, the spiritual enlightened being that we revere. And if we see that person as having faults, then we are going to vajra hell, you know?

Rick: Can you imagine yourself sitting up on a couch and wanting everybody in front of you to view you as perfect and infallible and faultless? I mean, where would your head have to be at to actually even allow that?

Cynthia: Well yeah, and…

Rick: I suppose it’s built into the tradition, but I would run away.

Cynthia: Suzanne It’s built into… It’s not a very healthy system in these days, in these times, let’s put it that way.

Rick: Well, I don’t know if this is a relevant question from Thomas in Greenfield, “How much instability in Liberia and the Congo is caused by the ongoing US drone program?”

Cynthia: I have no idea about that.

Rick: Yeah, me neither. I mean, I don’t see it. Sure, I mean the US and other countries have been messing with a lot of these countries, and way back to the British and Dutch and French colonizing a lot of these places, you know, and disrupting their… We actually can make something out of this question because ever since colonial times, Western cultures have been disrupting indigenous cultures and destroying their ways of life and forcing them to abandon their heritage and their traditions and even their language, and exploiting all the resources they can find. And there’s just been tremendous damage to the cultural integrity of the world, and I think that’s one of the things that needs to be healed, and I think perhaps what you’re helping to heal with what you’re doing. But we were talking earlier about what would have to change for a more enlightened society to come into being. I think that’s one of the things that will have to change is some kind of, I don’t know about material reparations, I think in many cases that would be called for, but some kind of spiritual reparations for the damage that has been done to these… it’s really disrupted the natural laws of the planet.

Cynthia: Right, and I was talking about some core wounds that I’ve identified that need healing for balance to be restored in the world, and another one is the terrible oppression of indigenous people and how that has been carried out all around the whole world and is really a big part of what needs to be addressed in these times. And I think, thankfully, is being addressed in these times. It’s all in relationship to the earth, and where I was going to go with the comments around the patriarchy, and in particular in my case with the guru and the system of the way in which many lineages of Buddhism are transmitted, requiring things of us that don’t feel very healthy to me, especially as a woman, because there is a lot of abuse, and in particular sexual abuse, and just all kinds of ways in which those inequalities are not dealt with. What happened for me is that when I had to face some of these issues in my own teachers and in my own family, I almost threw the baby out with the bathwater. I love the Buddhist teachings, you know, but I was very disillusioned for a long time, and I gradually had to kind of make my way back to, “What is this for me?” And what I came to, thanks to these little clay pots, actually, is that the earth is the most beautiful embodiment of what we call the three jewels in Buddhism. The Buddha, the teacher, the dharma, the teachings, and the sangha, the community, and all three of those are embodied so perfectly in the living earth as an example, as a teacher, you know, and as an embodiment of the teachings, the interconnected web of life, interbeing, you know, this whole incredible, global, vast, diverse community of life living and breathing within the body of Gaia. So that has become, for me, as I say, my source of refuge, my inspiration, my spiritual source is this living earth. And it feels to me like this is a moment that we’re living in where we are all being asked to come into a relationship of great respect for the living earth as the source of everything. And because women are, you know, so intimately connected to life in such particular ways, we have, and of course there is such imbalance with the patriarchal, you know, control over every living system of the earth and the using and abusing of all that has been given. It is time, you know, for this kind of rebalancing to happen. So, my dharma is that. And when I was writing my book, which is called “Summoned by the Earth” and tells many of these stories and teachings and things that have come to me along the way, I was reflecting on how at the moment of the Buddha’s enlightenment, there was this gesture to touch the earth, to summon the earth to witness this awakening. Which I find very profound because it’s the only story of some kind of spiritual awakening where the earth was invoked as the witness that is that vast, always-present being that is the ground upon which we stand, we sit, we sleep, we do everything. So anyway, I was kind of reflecting on that whole story and writing about it. And it came to me to write, it just came to me to rewrite the story of the Buddha as a woman. And I had never, and it’s not really a very big part of my book, but it’s there. And I had never really thought about it because I just accepted, “Oh, well, the Buddha is a Buddha.” And it’s not a big issue to me. I love men. We can’t make these big separations here. But when I reframed the story as if the Buddha were a woman, suddenly I felt very liberated. I could identify with that experience more personally. And I didn’t have to go through a big shift because the Buddha is this figure that I’m told to relate to in a certain way. And suddenly it all just kind of relaxed. So, I like to think of the Buddha in a feminine form. I have practiced Tara for many, many years. Tara is a great ally. And over the years, Tara actually began to sort of evolve into an embodiment of Gaia. And it’s been another great revelation to work with a “deity practice,” which of course you have to know that the deities that we imagine and visualize in the Tibetan tradition are simply aspects of our own true nature. They’re not something outside that we have to believe in separate from us. So, it’s a skilful way of bringing that energy into ourselves. So, what’s come to me is a practice of Gaia, a Tara Gaia, that allows people to identify and form a relationship to Gaia. And it wasn’t actually, so I’m jumping around a bit, I realize, but in 2018 I went back to Nepal after about, I don’t know how long it had been, maybe 20 years since I had been there. And I went back to the cave where I met the 106-year-old Lama, and there was his daughter who is now in her 80s and lives in that cave. And she has lived there since she was 19. She served her father and basically has lived in retreat her entire life. And she hadn’t left the cave for 30 years. So, we went back to see her and bring a treasure vase. We actually brought one of the little treasure vases there. And we also visited the monastery that was destroyed by the earthquake in 2014 that was his root temple and is now the seat of the Lama that took me to meet Charak Rinpoche in the first place. And that Lama made the treasure vases and has been my spiritual friend for many years in all of this. And when we went to that monastery, we also brought a treasure vase there. And at that time, he enthroned me as the Lama. And I was completely…

Rick: Of that monastery that got destroyed?

Cynthia: Of that monastery and the lineage there, yeah. And he put one of those pointed red hats on my head and told me that I was a Lama now. And I was completely shocked because having gone through this whole process of reckoning within my own life and my relationship to the Dharma as it is traditionally taught and coming to some different ideas about it, to have this come to me was something that I wasn’t sure how I could hold it. And then when we went up to see the daughter of… the old wise woman in the cave, she then did a ceremony to pass on the whole lineage to me, which I’m feeling the emotion of it right now. It was such a blessing, such a beautiful blessing. But I was also conflicted still, and I still am because I didn’t earn it in the traditional way and I don’t really want it in the traditional way. And yet, here it is. And actually, the same thing happened for me with Thich Nhat Hanh. I didn’t want to become a teacher. I didn’t want to sit on a seat and have that responsibility. Like I just want to sit in a circle and be with people. You have as much wisdom as anybody else. You know, it’s like the Buddha at the Gas Pump, right? R

Rick:Right, good idea.

Cynthia: Yeah. So anyway, I was struggling with all of this very deeply. And on the last day of the trek coming down off the mountain, it had rained and it was slippery and I turned my ankle and I fell. And I fell over the edge of a very, very steep mountainside. And there was actually nothing between where the trail was and the river thousands of feet down below. It was a very steep, very– there was nothing. As soon as I went over the edge, I left my body and I started to tumble. And I hit the ground and then I was tumbling. And I came to as I was rolling head over heels down the mountain. And I could see out of the corner of my eyes, there was nothing to grab onto, nothing to stop my fall. And I went to– said to myself, “Oh, Cynthia, you are falling head over heels down this mountain and there’s nothing stopping you.” And I left my body again and I continued to tumble. And then all of a sudden, I came to this screeching halt on the side of this mountain. And I was like spread-eagled on the side of the mountain, having no idea how I came to a stop. And I kind of like came to check my body, my trekking poles, my backpack was on my head, my water bottle, my… like, am I alive? Do I have broken bones? Can I stand? Am I okay? And I was banged up, but I was okay. And I didn’t have any broken bones. I had sprains, but I had no broken bones. And I was not paralyzed and I was not dead at the bottom of the mountain.

Rick: What stopped you? Was there a little plateau or ledge or something?

Cynthia: No, no.

Rick: You just stopped on a steep incline, you just stopped.

Cynthia: I stopped. And so that was the big puzzlement, like, what the fuck? How did this happen? What was it? And then later, Lama Tsultrim said, “Oh, well, it must have been Tara, you know, Tara stopped you, Buddha stopped you,” you know? And in that moment, it was…

Rick: Were you with Lama Tsultrim at the time?

Cynthia: Lama Tsultrim is the name of the lama in Nepal who gave me a lot–

Rick: Oh, okay, because there’s one in Colorado whom I’ve interviewed, I thought maybe, yeah, okay.

Cynthia: Yeah, no, Lama Tsultrim Allione is a Dharma sister and great friend, but this is a different

Rick: Lama Tsultrim.

Cynthia: So yes, he was on this trip, but I was walking alone. So, this whole thing happened completely alone, and there was none of my group was around.

Rick: And nobody even knew you fell over.

Cynthia: Nobody even knew I fell over. And when I went to stand, the trail was way up there, and it was very steep and very slippery, and I was very scared that I would actually fall all the way. I didn’t know how in the world I was going to get up to that trail. And I started yelling for help, and a Sherpa porter that was passing by way up there heard me and threw me a rope with a rock on it that I actually caught and grabbed onto, and then he pulled me up and came down and actually helped me from behind because I couldn’t get a foothold. It was so steep. So that’s how I got up. And then I had to walk another two hours. I caught up, some of my group caught up to me and helped me back. But anyway, long story short, I finally got back. It wasn’t actually until I got home because I still had a couple, I had to recover and the group had to leave, and then I was in Nepal and I couldn’t even walk.

Rick: Because you actually twisted or injured your ankle, right?

Cynthia: Yeah, yeah.

Rick: It didn’t just stumble.

Cynthia: Yeah, no, it was very swollen and stuff. So, it wasn’t terrible, but it was an issue. So anyway, I was grappling with all of this, and it wasn’t until I was home later coming to terms with everything that I realized how it was that I stopped on that path. And I realized that it was the earth that stopped me. The earth grabbed me.

Rick: Like the spirit of Gaia or whatever.

Cynthia: Yeah, and when it came to me, I felt it. I felt what it was like, I remembered what it was like to be lying on that hillside, that steep hillside. And I literally felt as if the earth had me, had me at my back and was saying, you’re not going down that mountain, no, you’re with me. I’ve got you, you’re with me. And so, it took that to finally bring home that the earth is my greatest teacher. The earth is the source of all the best teachings. The earth is the diverse community of which we are each a part within the web of life. And this is the times that we’re living in are calling for us to remember this and to wake up within it. So, this is kind of, for me anyway, a new evolutionary turn of the wheel of the dharma in these times.

Rick: That’s great, what a story. Everything you’ve just said and this whole topic of patriarchy versus matriarchy, it seems to me that the whole culture, our whole culture, the whole scientific world has this sort of physicalist, materialist paradigm at its foundation. And you know, the earth is stuff, it’s dead, it’s not conscious, it’s inert, and we are entitled basically to do whatever we want with it. You know, it’s ours to enjoy, to, what’s the word, to take advantage of, that’s a fancier word, or to rape you could even say.

Cynthia: Sure, good.

Rick: Because the opposite of that is, the earth is conscious, it’s intelligent. Now they don’t know the earth, I mean all material creation is intelligence, it’s imbued with divinity, it’s responsive, it’s capable of saving us if we’re falling down a mountainside because there are impulses of intelligence within nature that can actually intercede in human affairs, and they’ll do so advantageously if we cooperate with them, but they will oppose us if we violate them. Kind of like there’s a verse in the Rig Veda that says something, “The riches seek out him who is awake,” and by riches are meant sort of impulses of intelligence we could say that help to orchestrate creation. And if one is awake, then you have the wind in your sails at your back, aiding you along in everything you do. If one is not awake, well both Christ and the Gita say this, that he who knows the self, that the self is his greatest friend, he who does not, it behaves with enmity like a foe, you know, whatever you don’t know will destroy you. Now I’m the one who’s rambling on, but in any case, there’s these sort of opposite perspectives. And so, this whole thing about waking up to a more feminine perspective is a matter of shifting from this “Earth is a dead object” perspective to “Earth is a living being, the material creation is a living being and needs to be respected as such and not just exploited and abused,” because our doing that, it has blowback, you know, it’s our own doom if we continue in that direction.

Cynthia: That’s right, that’s right. So how do we form a relationship with the Earth as a living being that is available to us because we are a part of her? We are not separate. Each and every one of us is a little part of the whole.

Rick: Yeah, we’re like cells in a body and if the cells are sick, the body is sick.

Cynthia: Exactly, so reconnecting, remembering that, you know, and this is why it’s so important that we elevate the indigenous people because they’ve never forgotten this and they know how to cultivate that relationship. So, one of the things I’ve learned through taking the treasure vases out into the world as this most precious offering that I could possibly imagine in these times is the whole notion of making offerings. And how when we, and you probably know this through your own experience in the Hindu tradition because you know they’re always making offering flowers and incense and candles and light and sweets and you know, all of that, you make offerings.

Rick: I used to be a TM teacher and I must have done thousands of pujas in which I was making offerings in the process of teaching people.

Cynthia: I figured you were a TM teacher because you live in Fairfield, Iowa.

Rick: Yeah, I’m not active in it anymore but I did that.

Cynthia: No, no, yeah, so making offerings and what happens when we make an offering is that we invite a relationship to the spirit world or to the deity or to the source of life, you know, the place that we love, the waters that we want to continue to flow clean, you know, the trees that we want to grow, the forests, the rivers, the mountains, the oceans, you know, our own little piece of land. The unseen beings that are here, if we invite them and if we call on them, and if we don’t, they’re not. But if we, and in the same way that we humans have abused the earth and taken so much from the web of life at our now own expense, unconsciously thinking that we had the right to just take and take and take and take and destroy, that attitude can also manifest in our relationship to prayer. We think that we can just, you know, ask for what we want and get it, you know?

Rick: As if we know best what we want, what we should have.

Cynthia: Yeah, yeah, and if you want to make a relationship to the subtle realm, you really have to make an offering. You have to give something. It’s like any relationship, you want to have a good relationship with your spouse, you know, it helps every now and then to bring her flowers, for example, or, you know, cook dinner or take out the garbage or do something as an offering to bring forth that reciprocity and balance. So, we’ve forgotten how to do that. We need to remember how to do that. And so, you know, even little ways, you know, you take your leftovers, you know, and you offer it out onto the land, or you take a little wine and you pour a libation, or you light a candle and you acknowledge the light in the world and you give thanks, you know? Or you go to a special spot. I always encourage people to find your spot outside and go there and put your hands on the ground and talk to the earth. Have a conversation, invite a relationship with nature, because nature, we are part of nature and we need to remember that connection.

Rick: I would recommend that in addition to doing all the kinds of things you just said, which are sort of outer-oriented in a way, you know, pouring a libation here and doing this there, that we counterbalance that with a way of going deep within, if we can find such a way, so that we swing back and forth from tapping into the source and then infusing the energy and intelligence we’ve absorbed there into the outer world.

Cynthia: Exactly, and that source within, you know, that is our greatest offering. I give my life to this, and when I can stop all that external busyness and take a breath and come back, you know, then I can connect with that source that is so much larger, and that becomes the fuel for the compassion to blossom in the world and to be offered in whatever way is called for in the moment, you know? Somebody comes to the door or somebody calls or, you know, the virus.

Rick: I often think of that line in the 23rd Psalm, “My cup runneth over,” and to me that means you become so full inside that you naturally overflow. And if you’re not full inside, if there’s sort of a paucity, if you’re empty in a spiritual sense, then you can go running around trying to do stuff, but it doesn’t really help. It’s like somebody trying to be a lifeguard who hasn’t learned how to swim, which is not to say that we should become self-centred and me, me, me, and oh, it’s all about my meditation and my routine and all that stuff, and to heck with everybody else. There needs to be this kind of balance kind of a thing. In fact, I was just talking to an old friend today, and I was telling him about this group of people who are living a sort of monastic life, and a friend of mine lives in that group, and he was saying that people have gotten really nutty. They’re people who think the earth is flat, and they all sit at the same lunch table and discuss that kind of idea and all these strange conspiracy theories. And I said to my friend, “You know, these people have been meditating for decades. How can they think that way?” And he said, “They’re out of balance. You know, there’s just too much sort of inner focus without any outer giving or integration in the real world, and the mind can just go off into la-la land when you don’t counterbalance it and integrate it.”

Cynthia: Yeah, I couldn’t agree more. And in fact, you know, we talk a lot about relative and absolute truth in the dharma and in spiritual teachings, and there is such a tendency to get sort of all expanded into that absolute realm, and then, you know, oh, the relative is happening, the relative suffering, the relative issues and problems, and we’re told not to get too caught up in all of that. But you know, for me, I feel as if, well, that’s exactly the point. You know, as long as we have those issues and problems, we don’t really have a hope of enlightenment because those things are happening, right?

Rick: Yeah, and you’re alive for a reason. This is one thing that my friend Tim Freke talks about a lot, that you know, we didn’t just come into life to get out of it as quickly as possible, we came into it to learn and grow and perhaps that’s what God Himself, Saint Teresa of Avila said, “It appears that God Himself is on the journey.” So, it’s not like the whole universe is an accident and we’re trying to get it over with as soon as possible, it’s here as an evolutionary tool, and that involves taking it seriously and not dismissing it as mere maya.

Cynthia: Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. And more and more, you know, this is the great opportunity, you know, the crisis and opportunity to be embodied in this precious life and to connect with others in service of life.

Rick: And service can be such a great evolutionary practice. I mean, seva, you know, it’s in every tradition, I think. And I think when Ram Dass went to see Neem Karoli Baba for the first time and he said, “Well, what should I do?” And he said, you know, “Feed people.” And he ended up getting on this mission to help with blindness, he and Ashleigh Brilliant over there in India. And Ashleigh Brilliant was responsible for eradicating smallpox and he was also a Neem Kiroli Baba disciple. So, this kind of service thing is not just sort of, I don’t know, it has deep spiritual significance and it’s not just the right thing to do, it’s kind of, if you’re really concerned about growth and evolution for yourself even, it’s an excellent tool. It sort of helps to be an antidote to selfishness when you behave selflessly.

Cynthia: It’s one of the greatest teachers, for sure. Yeah, and it connects to this whole idea or notion that, you know, what is your offering? You know, what is your offering, what is your purpose and your gift? Each of us has a unique gift to give in our lives of why we’re here. And some of us, you know, have these big, big lives and some of us have smaller lives, but none of it is less or more important than the other. And so, the practice of service, you know, Andrew Harvey wrote about in his book, The Hope, he wrote about what is it that wakes you up at 3 o’clock in the morning that you care about, that you love?

Rick: Usually it’s because I have to pee, actually.

Cynthia: I know, there’s that too.

Rick: No, I know what you’re saying.

Cynthia: You know what I mean. That thing that presses on you. And many of us are so busy we don’t even know what that is, but maybe in this time of stopping we can begin to get a little glimpse of that, you know? And what is it that concerns us? What is it that we care about, that we want to help? And you know, then that becomes your service.

Rick: Yeah, like you said, it doesn’t have to be a big earth-traveling mission. Like I was listening to a panel discussion you did at SAND with Charles Eisenstein and others and Charles was talking about this couple in the town where he lives who adopted this child whom no one else would adopt, and they’re just pouring their love into that child. And Charles was just emphasizing that he thought that was just as great a form of service as anything anybody is doing. They don’t even know if they’re going to get to keep the child, but they’re just pouring everything they’ve got into this child and making a big difference in that child’s life.

Cynthia: One life, yeah.

Rick: Yeah, exactly. You know the story of the old man and the starfish?

Cynthia: Oh, I don’t remember it. I remember hearing, telling, yeah.

Rick: Yeah, they’re walking down the beach, an old man and a boy, and there are all these thousands of starfish that are stranded on the sand because the tide went out or something. And so, and they’re going to die drying up in the sun. So, as they’re walking, every now and then the old man would reach down, pick one up, and throw it back into the water. And after a while the boy said, “You know, I mean, there’s so many of them. What possible difference can you make?” And at that the old man reaches down, picks up another one, throws it in the water and said, “I made a difference to that one.”

Cynthia: Yeah, exactly. Yeah, you’ve got to start somewhere.

Rick: Yeah.

Cynthia: Start with what’s right in front of you.

Rick: Same with Claire with her tree sisters thing. It’s like there’s so many trees dying every day. In a single day more trees die than she’s managed to plant in nine or ten years. We talked about this, but it’s the very effort that has significance that sort of, actually it may seem small in terms of if you’re counting trees, but the effort that you make somehow has this catalytic effect I think in collective consciousness and ends up being much larger exponentially than you would think it would.

Cynthia: Exactly, exactly. And I think we do ourselves a disservice to get too caught up in, okay, how much time do we have to turn this around?

Rick: Yeah, yeah.

Cynthia: Right? Because then we’re sort of locked into a system that keeps on perpetuating the problem. And the opportunity here is to kind of like take that breath and return to the source Within, for lack of better word. And to allow for that little aha moment to come where something different can happen. And that place is a place where miracles live. That is a place where nature can heal. Where life can unfold in relationship to the sun and the moon and the stars. You know, where we can contact what we love and what we care about and offer it.

Rick: Nice. A question came in from Stacey in Portland, Oregon. Stacey asks, “Can anyone learn and facilitate your tradition?” And in addition to that question, I want to add something to it and you can answer them both together, and that is, you know, “What do you hope to accomplish now in the coming years and how can people help you accomplish it? And at the same time, learn and facilitate your tradition”.

Cynthia: Well, I’m not sure how I feel about this “your tradition” thing, “my tradition” thing. I hope it’s all of our tradition, all of our opportunity to serve life on Earth in these times. I’m not going to say the great, well, you know, Joanna Macy talks about the great turning, I was just going to say the great healing. This is the work of our times, and so I’m about to put out a new website called “Gaia Mandala Global Healing Community.” It’s Gaiamandala.net. It’s hopefully going to be live next week.

Rick: Well, I’ll put up a link to it then.

Cynthia: It’s been a long time coming.

Rick: I’ll put up a link to it on your page.

Cynthia: There will be a number of offerings that you can participate in to get more involved, and we do a full moon meditation every month that is connected to the Earth Treasure Vase practice and keeps that …

Rick: You do that on Zoom or something, so people can do it from anywhere?

Cynthia: From anywhere, yeah. And we have like 3,000 people participating now.

Rick: Wow, that’s impressive.

Cynthia: So, of course, not everybody gets on to the live call, but they get the recording. So, it’s a pretty vast global network now, and there’s this feeling that the mandala, as I call it, the locations where all the treasure vases have been buried, is this kind of mandala, and that it’s almost like coming alive itself now, as a whole. Because there’s enough prayers and offerings in those little, what did you call them in the beginning, the little vases?

Rick: Transmitters?

Cynthia: The little transmitters. They’re out there doing their work, and every full moon we activate them through the meditation, and then meanwhile there’s more treasure vases going out through people stewarding the vases, and there’s still more yet to come.

Rick: When you do those meditations, do you always list the locations where the things have been planted?

Cynthia: Yes, we invoke each …

Rick: I listened to one of those, and it was impressive. It was kind of neat, because I was listening along, walking through the woods, and my awareness kind of went all over the earth, as you mentioned all these different places, and I can imagine And you know, it’s like everybody’s sort of zooming in on all these little things all over.

Cynthia: I know, I just got goosebumps as you were talking, and it’s super powerful, and it’s also very healing, and it’s very uplifting and inspiring. So, in spite of all the horrible suffering that’s going on in the world, in all these different locations and places and ways in which we’re dying like flies, there is this practice that is an anchor in the midst of it. So that’s a way to begin. I’m teaching Tara Gaia. Again, I’ve taught it once, only once. It’s just coming out into the world. I’ve taught it once, and I now have a monthly practice group.

Rick: What is that?

Cynthia: Also on Zoom, Tara Gaia.

Rick: But what is it? What do you do when you teach it?

Cynthia: It’s a Vajrayana-inspired deity practice that arose from a practice of Tara, but has evolved into a practice of Gaya that is a visualization and a mantra recitation that is something that I am teaching now. I don’t know how really else to say it. It’s a practice that you recite. So, it’s a kind of liturgy. They call it a sadhana. So, it’s recited and visualized, and then you do a mantra recitation, and then there’s a period of just resting in the experience of that, of Gaia, of being inseparable from her and forming a spiritual relationship to Gaia. And so, I’ll be teaching that in a weekend retreat on Zoom in July and November. And then if you receive the teachings, then you can come into the practice group that happens on a monthly basis. So, we cultivate the practice together, and then people do it also on their own as a practice. I’m now doing a weekly practice group as of the age of Karuna in mindfulness practice, every Monday, Monday mindfulness meditation, so as a way to cultivate our calm abiding and clarity within the context of the crisis that we’re in in the world. So those are a few things.

Rick: How do people sign up for all these things? Is it all on your website?

Cynthia: It’s mostly all on my website. You can get involved at earthtreasurevase.org and then click the Get Involved button and get in touch that way, and then we can take it from there. So that’s kind of before this other website is finished, that’s the place to go is earthtreasurevase.org and sign up for the newsletter. And that comes out in relationship to the full moon meditation. So, I send it out the week before the full moon, letting people know when the next meditation is and what the focus is and then some of these other things. I’m also teaching a seven-week course starting the end of April. It’s called “Gaia Calling”, and the subtitle is “Being a Vessel for Global Healing and Collective Awakening”. And I’m teaching that with my beloved full moon co-host David Nicol, who wrote a book called Subtle Activism and has another beautiful community called Earth Rising. And David’s somebody you might like to interview, Rick, if you don’t know him. Yeah, he’s a good guy. So, David and I are teaching that course together. It’s called Gaia Calling. We’re doing an introductory call about that course on April 11th, and I’d love for people to come onto that and learn more. So those are a few things and ways of getting involved. So, there’s also stewarding vases, learning the practice, yeah. It goes on and on.

Rick: Yeah, if you want to send me an email listing all these little things, I could even put them in your bio on BatGap. Here’s some of the things Cynthia does, A, B, C, D.

Cynthia: Perfect.

Rick: I could link them to the places they would need to go to to find out more.

Cynthia: Perfect, I’ll do that. Yeah, thank you. Thank you for asking.

Rick: Thanks, it’s been an enjoyable week for me, listening to many hours of you talking about stuff, and all kinds of fascinating things. And in today’s talk you said some things I hadn’t heard in any of the other ones, like falling down that mountain. I hadn’t heard you say that. That was pretty wild.

Cynthia: Yeah, that was quite a moment. Yeah, I’ve written about that in my book.

Rick: Which will be out soon.

Cynthia: Well, I just sent the, I have an agent who’s just sent the proposal out to publishers. The book’s written, but the proposal is now circulating. So, “Light a Candle”. I’d love it to come out sooner than later. It’s very timely.

Rick: Yeah, well thanks so much for all you’re doing. Probably when I say that you’re thinking, “Well, don’t thank me, thank the means, the power by which I’m able to do all this.” That’s where it all goes.

Cynthia: Yeah, that’s right.

Rick: But it’s nice to be an instrument, you know? Lord, make me an instrument of thy peace.

Cynthia: Indeed. And what’s the feminine of Lord? Lady?

Rick: Lady. Ma’am.

Cynthia: Yeah, yeah.

Rick: But anyway, I appreciate it and it’s been great getting to know you better. And I’m sure many people will be getting in touch and getting involved in the things that you have to offer.

Cynthia: Thank you, thank you. Please people who are hearing this, please feel free to get in touch with me at earthtreasurebase.org and I’d be happy to help in any way facilitate your own path of global healing and collective awakening in these times. So, I’m here for that.

Rick: Good. Okay, well thank you to those who have been listening or watching. Most of you know this is an ongoing series, so every week we have another one. And there’s an upcoming interviews menu on batgap.com where you can see what we’ve got scheduled and of course a past interviews menu where you can explore the ones that we’ve already done. So, thanks for being with us and thanks again Cynthia. We hope to all come out of our little cocoons; we’ll see each other again one of these days.

Cynthia: That would be great. Okay, you be well. Take care.

Rick: Yeah, be careful. Wash your hands. Don’t touch your face.

Cynthia: Yeah, hard to do.

Rick: I saw a thing, Tyrannosaurus Rex, right? And he said, “Ah!” I; You just touched your face.

Rick: Oh I did, I just touched my face. I’m like Anthony Fauci going like that. But there’s a Tyrannosaurus Rex, you know, and they had these little tiny arms and he was like this great big dinosaur roaring. He said, “I’m never going to die because I can’t touch my face.”

Cynthia: Right. Okay, well we’ll do the best we can.

Rick: Yep, thanks.

Cynthia: Yep. Okay.

Rick: Thanks everybody. See you next week.