Brian Piergrossi Interview

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer and my guest this week is Brian Piergrossi. Welcome Brian.

Brian: Thank you Rick. Great to be here.

Rick: Brian lives in the Asheville area, right?

Brian: That’s correct.

Rick: It’s a hotbed of spirituality. I can’t wait to get down there. I mean, I know so many people down there. That’s Asheville, North Carolina for those of you who don’t know your US geography. There’s a lot of details on the bio page of your website. I thought that rather than reading them, I would just have you kind of introduce yourself and we’ll probably cover a lot of these points in the course of the interview. So how would you like to introduce yourself?

Brian: Yeah, it’s interesting. I was just, as you were researching me, I was researching you a little bit yesterday, looking at some of the – not beyond the show – but listening to some of the archives of the show and so forth. There’s this interesting question that you brought forth with one of the guests, which was, “Do you share the story of yourself in your life, or do you say that I’m not the story of my life and not my life?” And that’s the question that I always kind of look at and play with. So I’ll share the story of my life and also say that there’s something that’s beyond the story and to really realize that the story is just a story. And then there’s so many different ways of framing the story and which aspects of the story to highlight and not to highlight. But the way I point toward, as far as when this major shift came for me, was when I was 20 years old, I had an illness that came on suddenly and strongly and didn’t go away and actually got progressively worse. And I wasn’t really getting any real answers from the medical establishment as far as what was happening with me. At that age, there’s all sorts of dreams and ideas about what your life is going to be like and all these things that you’re going to do. And there’s this real awakening in the sense that, “Oh, that’s not true. None of that actually seems to be the way things are going now.” And I was just thrown this absolute curveball, which made me question everything. It made me question life itself and why it seems like everything that I’ve been told isn’t true and isn’t working out that way. And why am I suffering and what is the cause of suffering and why are human beings suffering? So there was this really strong – I felt like there was no choice. I had to find out these answers for myself, first and foremost. And one good thing about having an illness, which I’ve talked to some other people that have been in this situation, is you do have a lot of time because there’s not much else you can do. So there was an opening for reading and journaling and things that I was able to do. And it really gave me a chance to really explore these answers for myself. And it became my one point of intention to find out the answers to these questions. Who am I? Why am I here? What is the cause of suffering? And I started to realize pretty quickly the mind-body connection, which was a real opening for me. So there was this realization that physical suffering that I was feeling was connected to the way I was thinking, the way I was thinking about myself and thinking about the world. And that opened up this whole realm, this whole other realm, an exciting realm for me, and opened me up to some of the teachings of the East, and it all progressed forward from that point.

Rick: Seriously, I can think of a number of examples of people who went through serious illnesses and came out the other side having awakened, or with this big shift. St. Francis of Assisi is a famous example, came back from the Crusades and got really sick. And then I saw “Brother Sun, Sister Moon,” and he came out of his sickness. And it was a big epiphany that had happened. And I interviewed a guy named Doc Roberts a couple of years ago, who was put in an induced coma for a couple of weeks because he had this really serious lung surgery. And when he came out from the coma, he had awakened in the spiritual sense, everything had shifted. And then there was that guy who was famous in Thailand who was slipped a poison candy by a would-be thief and nearly died and went unconscious. And somehow or other, when he came out of that, there was an awakening. It seems like sometimes either a serious illness is some kind of final purgative, or some sort of burning off of karma, or something, that sometimes people come out having really shifted significantly.

Brian: Yeah, even in a deeper sense, I totally agree. And then when I explore with people, what caused you to start the spiritual search and what caused you to go on this journey to discover yourself, the essence of who you are, the answer is pretty much universal. There may be some exceptions, but generally speaking, the answer is suffering. Suffering is what propelled me forward. And so it’s good to have that perspective because you realize it’s all not for naught. There is a reason, it’s pulling you, it’s calling you in a direction to find something greater than what you see currently.

Rick: It’s said in some traditions that the angels don’t have really the motivation for enlightenment because they’re enjoying so much where they are that there’s no impetus.

Brian: Yeah, exactly. That’s it.

Rick: So are you saying that you kind of went through a phase where you were still really sick, but you were searching like a son of a gun, investigating all kinds of things?

Brian: Yeah, exactly. It was a sense of that was what my life was dedicated to from that point. At that point it didn’t feel like there was a lot of people that I could turn to that had the answers to the questions that I had. This was before YouTube and the proliferation of the internet in the way it is now. It was a lot of reading, it was books, it was going to the library and finding what I could find. A lot of that time, it wasn’t until later that I was able to start to connect with some actual human beings that seemed to be on the same path and exploring some of these same questions and having some answers to the questions.

Rick: Yeah. I presume you weren’t in Asheville at the time.

Brian: I was not.

Rick: Because if you had been, everybody you bumped into, from what the impression I got. So how long did this sickness phase go on, from the age of 20 till what?

Brian: That’s a good question. It got progressively better, and I was taking this holistic approach.

Rick: You were doing all kinds of healing modalities.

Brian: Exactly, exploring all kinds of things. I was exploring things as far as that goes too. Opening up to acupuncture and meditation and yoga and whatever I could find, I would try it. I was a guinea pig for all sorts of holistic modalities. I decided that the route of prescription drugs and that stuff wasn’t where I wanted to go, so I was exploring all these holistic modalities. So really, ten years or so. But it was progressively better and better. In the beginning, I was essentially bedridden for six months or so. Now I’m functioning and I’m in the world, but I would have little setbacks here and there, and maybe not quite feeling 100% optimal. But yeah, I would say about that length of time.

Rick: It came to mind just now, Adyashanti’s story, where he talks about how he had been this competitive bicycle racer, and then he got really sick and it knocked him flat, and he couldn’t do it anymore. He was also spiritually aspirant at the same time, and he had this series of awakenings. And then as soon as he got healthy, he started getting back into the competitive bicycle racing again, and then boom, it knocked him flat. He finally got the message that this is not what you’re supposed to be doing with your life. Not that there’s anything wrong with competitive bicycle racing, but in his case, it’s like nature was whacking him with a stick to say, “Let’s change direction, buddy.”

Brian: Well, that’s a great point, and that’s what I started to learn. The body, our emotions, our thoughts, they’re giving us signals. They’re telling us which direction to go. They’re telling us if we’re going too far this way, or we should be going this way instead. The more you wake into the moment, the more that present awareness is like, “I need to listen, or I want to listen to what I’m being guided here.” When you’re in the ego, it’s this resistance, this wanting to fight. “No, I’m not going to give in to this emotion or this body.” It’s this struggle against yourself and against life, and instead it’s the awakening to flowing with life. Those signals start to become more and more subtle, where you can just move with where you’re being guided, when you’re being told to slow down or speed up or move left or right.

Rick: It’s a good point. So you went through this decade or so of gradually getting better and investigating all sorts of things. I suppose in the course of this you weren’t just investigating health-related things, you began investigating spiritual practices and getting more and more interested in enlightenment and awakening and so on, right?

Brian: Well, that came pretty quickly. As soon as I realized, in fact I remember, it’s funny you say that, I remember I heard about enlightenment, I heard the term, “Oh, that’s what I want. I want the chance to go beyond suffering altogether. Let’s go for the whole thing instead of just trying to piecemeal it.” So yeah, that came pretty quickly and that was what my focus was toward from that point forward, studying what I could study in regards to it.

Rick: So what did you study? And what was of significance to you?

Brian: Yeah, so a lot. Pretty much it was whatever I could find, which then would lead to what would come next. So I remember I kept hearing about yoga, yoga, yoga, and something significant was in it for me. I was supposed to follow something. So I found some old book on yoga and Swami such and such, and started reading that and hearing about enlightenment. Then I found a yoga teacher where I grew up, which was outside of Reading, Pennsylvania. At that time they had a group that was meeting weekly that was watching videos of Andrew Cohen, which I know you’ve had on your show. So I was going to that and it would lead to different parts. But some different signposts that really stand out to me, big ones or memories, was “As Hard as God is, I Am That” was a big one. I would carry that everywhere I went for a year or two. Every day reading it with friends who didn’t know what I was talking about, but they pretended they did. So that was a big shift. And then really it was Krishnamurti for a couple of years as well, just one point into him and his writings and his videos. And then lots of other people too, but those two stand out. And then the third one that would stand out prominently towards the end of the search would be Eckhart Tolle and his stuff.

Rick: So obviously as you were doing this there was the whole seeker mentality. Did you find that at a certain point the seeker mentality relaxed and there was a sense of having found? Or was it a subtle shift that you couldn’t quite pinpoint or was there an abrupt transition at some point?

Brian: Well, as far as what I was looking at and studying and reading. I have to give credit to U.G. Krishnamurti for that phase. I was reading his stuff and there was this whole thing about basically the point of “You don’t need to seek enlightenment, you don’t need to search for it.” It just kind of opened up something in me. For whatever reason it was the point where I was at where something clicked. So that was helpful, reading his book called “The Mystique of Enlightenment” at that time. But yes, I do know that phase and that was in my early 30s where the sense of, “Yeah, the search is nothing to search for, the search is over and yes, I am that, we are that, this is it.”

Rick: And that was when that you had this realization?

Brian: In the early 30s.

Rick: How old are you now?

Brian: I just turned 39.

Rick: OK. So maybe 8 years ago or 7 years ago or something like that. So what’s been going on since the conclusion that the search is over?

Brian: Well, life definitely continues, for sure. I like to look at two different aspects of life. And I think a lot of teachings miss this, they focus on one without the other. So there’s the realization of oneself beyond the realm of space and time, the essence of who we are which doesn’t change, the same as it was 5 years ago, as now, as 5 years from now, after we die, before we’re born, etc. And then there’s the realization of who we are within the realm of space and time – the progressive evolution of consciousness as we are in the realm of time – Monday, Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday, 2013, 2014, 2015. So the realm beyond space and time doesn’t change, and there’s that realization, but then there’s the realm within space and time, and there’s all sorts of things growing and changing and continuing to evolve in one’s consciousness on that realm. So that definitely continues, and it’s just participating fully and appreciating and enjoying the journey on that realm.

Rick: That’s very well put, and it’s a frequent theme in these shows, because I can agree with people who might say, “Oh, the search is over, and there’s nothing more to gain,” and so on. But as you’ve already alluded to a number of times, there are levels to life, and that may be true on one level, but there are other levels on which that will never be true. I came across a great quote by Adyashanti just recently. He said, “Even now with me, the mystery is just beginning, always still beginning.” And I would consider him a very advanced soul.

Brian: Sure.

Rick: I mean, St. Teresa of Avila said of God, “It appears that even God is still on the journey.” You can probably riff on the implications of that, so maybe I’ll try to talk a little less and let you give me your impressions of those statements.

Brian: Yeah, sure, well there’s two things. So learning, if you’re not learning, you’re dead. Learning is really the joy of life, you can be learning each day. So going back to Krishnamurti, I remember Krishnamurti speaking about, “You should always be learning, every moment you’re learning.” That’s being present, that’s being in the moment, it’s continually being a space of innocence, like a newborn baby. You’re learning, like you’re seeing something for the first time. So that’s the real joy of life, is continuing to be learning every day. And the shift is, now it’s not from a place of lack, it’s a place that I’m trying to – there’s a hole in me that I’m trying to fill, of who I thought I was. Like I’m this little ego that needs to gratify myself, or have some sense of self-worth, or sense of self-love. You realize who you are, and the essence of who you are, so it’s not coming from a place of lack. It’s coming from a place of wholeness, and that’s the difference.

Rick: Very well put. I think that’s such an important point, it bears some discussion. Because it may appear to be that someone is still seeking, but it could very well be, but it’s just a matter of connotation and definition really, because seeking does imply lack. I’m seeking something which I don’t have, and perhaps once that shift has taken place, a better word might be exploring or discovering. One can explore and discover endlessly on the platform of fulfillment.

Brian: I think exploring and discovering, I like that terminology, and I feel like that’s really the fulfillment of life, is exploring and discovering. And in the world of form, it’s constantly changing, constantly moving. In the realm of formlessness, there’s nothing changing or moving, but in the world of form, every moment is new. So to be in the space of exploring and discovery opens you to what’s new, which is always right now, and then opening to the flow of continually opening yourself to what’s new in the realm of form, in the realm of consciousness, in the realm of time and space.

Rick: Yeah, and the nature of the topic we’re discussing is, it pertains to that level of life which is complete and perfect in and of itself. So when we speak of exploring and discovering, it doesn’t mean that, “Okay, now I’m going to get a PhD in astrophysics, and now I’m going to become an MD, and now I’m going to get a PhD in philosophy.” It’s not like in the relative world there are probably an infinite number of lifetimes one could spend learning all the little details of everything. We’re not suggesting that, I don’t think, but we’re suggesting that the exploration can be in terms of the juxtaposition of the absolute and the relative, or the infusion of the absolute into the relative, and how refined and capable an instrument we can become for the expression of that. Wouldn’t you say?

Brian: I think that’s very well said. I like that a lot. We should record that and share that everywhere on the internet. I think we’ll edit that part out. Yes, yes, the embodiment, the integration, the consciousness. So the infinite is not a thought, which we can get more into that, because I think that’s a big misperception that people have. It’s not a feeling, it’s not a thought, it’s not an experience. But then how does it inform your thoughts and your feelings and your experiences? That’s the consciousness that you’re relating to this dimension of reality in. It’s an exciting, endless exploration that’s not coming from a place of lack now, it’s coming from a place of joy and a place of play, ultimately.

Rick: Yeah, yeah, that’s good. And when you say the infinite is not a thought, it kind of reminds me of the whole theme of really experiencing what we’re talking about versus conceptualizing it. We’re not talking really, we’re playing with concepts here, but the significant thing is not the concepts, it’s the actual living experience to which they point.

Brian: Yeah, it’s recognizing that whatever changes is not the essence of oneself. So that includes feelings. So this is a big misperception that I find with people that are spiritual seekers, is they, “Well, I had this experience, I had this experience, and I want to get back to that experience.” And this is what their motivation is, to get back to this experience that they’ve had, or this feeling that they’ve had. And it’s the realization that that experience is over, and it’s not coming back. That’s in the past, and it’s dead, but that’s the experience right now. And this experience is it. And this experience is always it. And the formlessness, the essence of who we are, is always here, at the backdrop of whatever experience, whatever feeling, whatever thought is happening right now. So it’s really just blowing our minds open and our consciousness open as to what we think it’s supposed to be like. A friend of mine said recently, “Whatever you think it’s supposed to be like, it’s not.”

Rick: Yeah.

Brian: It’s really opening to what’s here.

Rick: The little blurb on my Skype ID is, “Whatever you think, it’s more than that.”

Brian: Yeah, I saw that, I like that.

Rick: Yeah, what you just said kind of reminds me of, let’s say you’re sitting watching a movie, “Argo.” I saw “Argo” recently, a great movie. It’s like, while I was watching “Argo”, I wasn’t thinking, “Geez, I really wish this were ‘Avatar,’ I’d like to get back to watching ‘Avatar.'”

Brian: Exactly.

Rick: So it’s like, the experiences keep rolling, but there’s kind of an underlying foundation to them all. In every case, let’s say if you’re in a theater, it’s the movie screen. There’s this movie screen, and that’s always the same, but the movie’s playing on it, it keeps changing.

Brian: Yeah, and if you’re fully in the moment, 100%, that’s the oneness. There’s no separation, there’s no division, there’s no barrier, there’s no resistance. So to fully give yourself to this moment is the realization, the embodiment of whatever’s happening in this moment. So it’s an unconditional relationship with the moment, which really then means an unconditional relationship with life, because life is now.

Rick: Yeah, but somehow I feel we have to emphasize the importance of awakening that underlying field that doesn’t change. Because without that, living in the moment just means tossing about on the surface of the ocean, “Oh, there’s this wave, and there’s this wave, and there’s this wave,” without any anchor or stability. And that’s what, of course, most people in the world do. They’re just living from moment to moment, very often thinking about the past and future, but just caught up in the waves of change without any underlying foundation that you’ve been referring to as a state of fulfillment or some stable basis.

Brian: Yeah, so what I see is there’s a point where those two meet. So if you’re completely in the flow of life, paradoxically, you’re completely in the stillness of life, because there’s no resistance to rattle the stillness. So you can look at it from either angle, and different teachings can look at it from different angles, but it amounts to the same place you’re talking about. If you completely surrender to the flow of life, you, in a sense, are in a space that’s unchanging. Because there’s no sense that, “Oh, I don’t want to feel sadness right now,” or, “I don’t want to feel happiness right now.” There’s no you to create a separate identity that distorts the perception of the essence of who we are, which is always that groundless sense that’s here. Another way of saying it is there’s no problem. So you realize that who you are is not a problem regardless of what’s arising in the world of form, in the world of phenomena.

Rick: So the question that comes to mind is, “Which is the cart and which the horse?” Can you consciously be fully in the flow of life, and that will awaken the underlying foundation of silence and stillness? Or do you have to somehow access that silent foundation in order to meaningfully be fully in the flow of life? Or somehow the two come together hand in hand and grow to whatever extent they grow simultaneously?

Brian: It’s a good question. I think you can come to it either way. But what’s interesting is the consciousness of the awakened state. In other words, being aware that you’re aware. I remember – I like Eckhart Tolle’s story a lot. So for those who don’t know, he had this incredible awakening opening in the middle of the night. But he didn’t have any kind of religious or spiritual or any sort of … He never had any books on it or had any cognitive understanding of it. So he didn’t know what happened to him. And I always like the story of where he’s reading the Bible and it says, he reads the passage, “The peace that passeth all understanding.” And it hits him, “Oh, well that’s me. Because I have peace, I don’t understand it.” So I think that there’s this space where you’re in that flow and then it’s the recognition of being in it that is a shifting point.

Rick: Yeah, that makes sense. And I would just suggest that there are many ways of culturing or eliciting that. There are practices that are very effective. There are non-practices that may happen. You might be like Eckhart Tolle or Byron Katie and just wake up one morning and voila. Although those seem to be the exception to the rule. Usually, most people that I know of anyway, that I’ve spoken to on this show and that I’ve encountered in my life, have had some sort of period of practice or discipline or search which has borne fruit.

Brian: What I think is really important for people to realize is I would call it integration. So you can have this awakening and it’s kind of like when I see people’s faces, it’s almost like they’re walking around wounded or stunned, or they don’t know what happened to them. It’s this period of embodying and integrating this into this world. And certainly that was a period for me too. And I’ve seen a lot of people, you’ve awakened, you’ve seen something, but how do you live in this world with what you’ve seen? How can you be a human being and function in this world as a spiritual being? And I think that’s where the real juice is. That’s where it gets really interesting and that’s where there’s a lot to explore and to discover and as you were speaking to earlier, to delve into and to learn. And it can be an ongoing learning adventure.

Rick: Yeah, in my experience it’s like walking up a flight of stairs. First you take a step with your left foot and then your right foot, then your left foot and then your right foot. And what I mean by that is there has been a continual clarification of the cognition of the Absolute, but then a continual integration of that into the relative. So it’s not like all of a sudden one day, 100% Absolute, it’s not going to get any clearer. Perfectly clear, pure, unbounded consciousness and nothing can be improved in that arena. And now I’ve got to integrate it. It’s been more like a glimpse of that integration, a clearer glimpse of that integration until eventually both are quite full. But maybe it’s different for other people. I’d like to ask Eckhart, if I get a chance to interview him, whether he feels that his experience of the Self or pure consciousness that dawned that morning after asking the question, “Are there two of me?” Whether that in and of itself has actually gotten clearer over the years, or whether it’s just the integration that has taken place and that has remained essentially the same as it was that morning.

Brian: To me it would be the integration. To me the Absolute is the Absolute, so it can’t become any more Absolute or it’s not the Absolute. That just seems by definition…

Rick: No, but your appreciation of it. I’m not saying the Absolute itself can get any more Absolute-y… but the clarity of your cognition of it.

Brian: I agree. That’s what I’m calling the integration, exactly.

Rick: Oh, okay. That can take time in the linear realm of time and space to…

Rick: Yeah, and when the integration is preliminary, even the cognition of the Absolute can be kind of foggy, and then as the integration progresses it gets more and more clear, so you’re saying that.

Brian: Yeah, it’s like the consciousness aligning itself with the awakening. I find that there’s usually a… not all the time, but a lot of times there’s a phase where when people awaken they just disconnect from life and they may sit on a park bench for a while, as Eckhart Tolle, or just quit their job or leave their relationship. They don’t know how to live in the world. Sometimes it’s very painful. It’s not always this blissed-out thing. But then that’s the process of integrating this awakening, so your consciousness aligns with the awakening and you’re able to live in this world. The intention is to be in the spaces where the world and not-world are the same. There’s not this separation between the two. For me, I feel like where I was in a phase before where I was trying to… this is the world and I am spiritual, and I’m not in the world or of the world, and trying to separate myself from the world and the things of the world. Now it’s – the world is spiritual and spiritual is the world and they’re one and the same. And fully giving myself to life is to fully transcend it.

Rick: Of course, half the people listening will have, just as you were speaking, will have recalled Christ’s statement, being in the world but not of it.

Brian: It was right on the tip of my mind, yes, and tongue.

Rick: Well, let’s pursue this a little bit more. People speak of awakenings as opposed to just one big awakening. Referencing Adyashanti again, he went through a series of two or three major awakenings. And as I understand what he said, in each one not only was his orientation to the world shifted, but even his appreciation or cognition of the self became more deep or more profound. So that’s kind of what I’m driving at here, is that when we have an awakening… It’s like a hologram, for instance. Maybe this is a good analogy. You know how a hologram works? You have a piece of film and it’s been exposed in a certain way using a laser such that if you shine a laser through it again, you get a projection of the object that was being filmed. And then you can cut the hologram in half and take the film and shine a laser through it, and you still get the same object, but there’s not quite as much resolution. And you can cut it in half again, same object, not as much resolution. So when the self is recognized, it’s like maybe seeing a tree in the fog. You know it’s a tree and not a horse, but there can be greater clarity of that recognition. And who knows what the limits of that clarity might be? And then in addition to that clarity, there’s a whole thing you’re referring to of the integration of that cognition with your life as a human being. And again, there’s no end to the exploration of that.

Brian: I think that the way I’m defining awakening here is, again, it’s not a thought or feeling, it’s not even an experience in the sense of you can label or define it. Of course, poetically we do it all the time, but it’s not actually the truth. So there’s that, there’s this awakening, and then you may have a whole series of beliefs and ideas about life and your relationships and your work, and it may blow that out of the water. And it really is like you’ve been hit with a rocket or something. You have to almost recover or heal from it and be formed anew. When you heal, you become something new than you were before. So your mind is trying to, because that’s what the mind does, it’s trying to grapple with it, it’s trying to find some kind of new balance of this opening that’s happened. And so I feel like that’s the process of your way of seeing the world, because as long as there’s a world, there’s a way of seeing it. So it evolves to align and there’s still barriers and parameters. If there’s a thing or if there’s things, there’s barriers and parameters, but there’s this light that’s shining and informing it now that’s infinite, that has no boundaries, no limits or parameters.

Rick: Yeah, very nice. Maybe that’s what you refer to as the big glow.

Brian: That’s right.

Rick: Let’s talk about your books a little bit. You wrote “The Wow of Now” and “The Big Glow” and your website has this sort of big glow logo on top of it.

Brian: Big glowy energy, yeah.

Rick: And why did you come up with that term? Just because of what we were just saying or was there more to it?

Brian: It’s a poetic term. You did define it very well, recognizing the light within oneself, whereas before that we’re searching for fulfillment outside ourselves in whatever we think is going to give it to us, a relationship or amount of money or a car or a job or whatever it is. There’s this recognition that it shifts to “We are that, I am that, I am that fulfillment,” and it’s this great spiritual liberation. So the book is the intention of expressing that truth as well as “The Wow of Now.” I think one of the differences between the way I’m sharing it as opposed to some of the people is there’s a certain playfulness and fun and lightness at times, but also depth as well. So that’s the intention of the books as well.

Rick: Is there a literal quality of glow in your experience or is that just metaphorical?

Brian: There is a light that you can feel radiating. I was with somebody, talking to somebody the other day, and there was this profound shift in them. All of a sudden they were just quiet and they’re smiling, but there’s this incredible light emanating, radiating from them. I think that there is that quality that can be there, but it’s worth saying that that’s not the main point. It’s something that’s deeper than, for example, someone could have the flu and it could still be there. The awakening of that realization can still be there. So it goes beyond whatever the physical is going through at a particular moment. But generally speaking, yes, you can definitely see that at times, this more light, this radiance that’s emanating from their physicality.

Rick: Yeah, and along the lines of integrating that more and more fully into the relative world, I’ve heard it said that a time comes when everything one perceives is radiating that sort of glow. There’s a sort of a celestial radiance to even the most common objects. Their essential spiritual value is shining forth through them, even if it’s a rock, if one has the eyes to see it.

Brian: Yeah, I feel like, I like to play with the term “light and light.” Light as the light from the sun, and light as lighter, as less weight. The more we make it in our consciousness, the lighter we are, because we’re not as heavy and dense in thought. So there’s more light that can shine through in everything that we’re seeing, because we’re not seeing it so heavy with description and categorization and labels and all this heaviness of the mind. So that’s where the light of the moment is able to be recognized and seen and reflected without any division or barrier or resistance.

Rick: I think it might even be more than just freedom from conceptual baggage. Can you remember a time when you were a lot younger, when you might have been depressed? Let’s say you’re walking down the street and it’s a cloudy day, and everything just seems gray and dead and lifeless. There’s this sort of flat, depressing quality to everything. And now, if you’re walking down the street on a cloudy day, there’s this sort of joy and everything seems magical and wondrous, even though it’s perhaps the very same street that you’re walking down. I think it’s maybe not just because you’re not busy conceptualizing, but your whole perceptual apparatus has evolved.

Brian: For me, this is what I talk about being in the moment, being in the now, because that magic is there, but we don’t see it. So we’re busy thinking about, “Oh, my life is terrible, and this happened last week, and what happens if I lose my job next week?” And then when that stuff dissipates, it’s like, “Wow, look how magical these dark clouds are in front of me, and look how magical the scent of rain is.” So the realization is that it doesn’t matter what the thing is, it’s our presence in the moment that brings that sense of magic and miraculousness to life. It’s us being awake to what’s here that creates that sense of magic and miraculousness.

Rick: Yeah, so then what it comes down to is, “All right, well how do we accomplish that?” If somebody is in a blue funk, if their life is burdened and pressured, and they just feel like they’ve got a lot on their shoulders, how do we help that person shift to this more joyous way of being?

Brian: Right, so that’s where the shift of self makes all the difference. Because if you think that your egoic self, and the story of yourself, and the story of ideas about yourself because of what people did to you, and what they said to you before, and you’re trying to overcome it, and all these different things, then there’s a very contracted sense of self, and you feel it, because it’s not really true. So on some level you feel the sense of, you’re not free, you’re contracted, you’re in a prison. You’re trying to break out of it, but then as we see over time, trying to break out of it is what maintains the illusion of the prison. And then there’s a point where you say, “I don’t need to break out of it, because there actually is no prison to begin with.” And that realization shifts everything. It’s like another example of that is, I was sitting at a table with a group of people one time, and it was about relationships, and feeling connected, having intimate relationships. It was this big discussion of, “How do we create the bridge? How do we bridge this gap? There’s this gap, but how do we bridge this gap between us?” So we’re sitting there, and this was some years ago, but something lit up in me, and I said, “Listen, I have to tell you all something that I realized. There actually is no gap. I see that there’s no gap, and actually us trying to create a bridge is perpetuating the illusion of a gap, and it’s actually creating division between us.” So I was explaining this, and three or four of us just lit up. We’re all lit up, and realizing that there’s no gap, and this profound sense of oneness was present. So it’s this discrimination that we create in our minds. “Okay, there’s a gap,” or “I’m in prison,” or “I’m this,” and then we’re trying to break out of the prison, or we’re trying to bridge the gap, and at some point we realize that the issue is us creating the idea that there’s a gap, or that there’s a prison.

Rick: Yeah. Well, that was kind of interesting. In your case, you’re sitting with a group of like-minded friends who are sort of spiritually inclined, and just your saying that was a catalyst for at least three or four of them to have a shift in perspective, maybe not everybody at the table.

Brian: That was the table.

Rick: Oh, that was the whole table. Okay, great. What comes to my mind is, though, that for most people, for everyone to some extent, there are layers and layers and layers of conditioning. And there are, again, rare cases like Eckhart Tolle, one night he’s on the verge of suicide, the next morning he’s awakened. There are examples like that. But I’m sure as he has realized, it’s not going to be as quick and easy for everyone as it was for him. He can’t speak to an audience of 300 people and have everyone come away with the sort of shift that he underwent. So I’m always interested in the practicality of how the average person can break through those many layers of conditioning and really undergo a profound and permanent shift, and not have it just be some conceptual toy that they start walking around quoting various phrases without any real experience to underlie it.

Brian: Well, it’s an interesting inquiry you’re bringing up, because we’re talking about, again, it depends on what we’re talking about. There are things that take time, and there’s something that’s not in the realm of time. Something that’s not in the realm of time can’t take time, or it doesn’t make any sense. So whenever you awaken to it, it may be in five years, but it’s still, of course, now. And you’re invited to wake into it any time. And then there’s the integration of that in your life as well. So there’s still learning how to function in relationships, and functioning in supporting yourself financially, or whatever the different aspects of being a human being are. But this recognition of self beyond time and space can’t take any time or space, or else it’s not what it is.

Rick: Right. But again, obviously it’s not something that everyone just awakens to, or recognizes just like that. Even people who want to recognize it, even people who are spiritual seekers, they don’t all just recognize it the moment they become spiritual seekers. They recognize something, but usually for most people there’s a period of years before there may be a profound recognition that is night and day difference.

Brian: I agree, but also to me the wanting to recognize it becomes seen as unnecessary. There’s no “it”, there’s nothing outside yourself to recognize. So there’s no “it.” And this is one of the big things I see in the non-dual community, is this whole talk about “it.” It’s like this, and it’s like that, and this is how you get it, and this is how you find it. It’s like “it” is a conceptualization in the mind that’s being created, and then there’s a projection of trying to get to the conceptualization that you created in your own mind. So it’s like you’re a dog chasing your own tail, and you created the whole game yourself. And at some point, maybe, there’s the realization that I don’t need to play this game anymore.

Rick: Well, but wanting to recognize it doesn’t necessarily imply that “it” is outside. One might know full well that it is an inner recognition, but not yet have had it. Like when you started seeking when you were around 20, it didn’t take you too long before you realized that there was this spiritual dimension, and the kingdom of heaven is within, and all that stuff. But it took quite some time before that became an experiential reality for you, and not just something you’re reading in books. Could it have happened on day one, when you were 20, the moment you began seeking? I suppose, theoretically, but practically speaking, do you see that as likely?

Brian: What I’m saying from the perspective of now is that there really is no “it.” It’s a really important thing for people to understand.

Rick: Well, it’s not an object, you’re saying.

Brian: It’s not an object. So this is it. Whatever this is, is it. So if you’re feeling sad right now, this is it. If you’re feeling happy right now, this is it. If you’re feeling like you want to go down to the grocery store, this is it. It can be very simple, mundane. It’s not this idea, whatever you think it is, it’s not what “it” is. There is no “it.” Life is “it,” you are “it,” this is “it.”

Rick: Yeah, but you were saying before that your life is now lived on a platform of contentment and of fulfillment. There’s a sort of sense of…

Brian: Of not having a sense of lack.

Rick: Yeah, I was just going to say an absence of lack. But for a person whose life doesn’t flow that way, then you and that person could be in the same grocery store, so to speak, shopping, but you’re both having very different experiences, because you’re kind of flowing along in this state of contentment, and the other person is thinking, “Oh, can I really afford these vegetables? Why don’t I have a better job?” There’s a sort of a lack of fulfillment that is a perpetuum for them. So you and I, as people who are interested in spiritual stuff, and interested in helping others to wake up, the practical question for us is, what can we offer people that’s not just going to be intellectual pablum, but is actually going to affect the kind of shift that will enable them to live on the foundation of fulfillment that you’re referring to?

Brian: Yeah, well, a couple of things. I mean, every person is different, so every situation is different, where everyone’s at, what they’re experiencing. The most important thing of all, and this may seem trite, like people have heard this before, but it’s important to really speak to, is to live from this place yourself.

Rick: What? To live from this place yourself, that’s the most profound way to make a change in the world, and really it’s the only way to make a change in the world. So people are really interested in sometimes pointing the finger at everybody else, and trying to, “What’s wrong with everybody else?” And to redirect your attention back to oneself, and realizing that if there is a sense of oneness, and if we are part of the world, and we’re a part of human consciousness, then what we’re looking at in other people is a part of our own consciousness. And so to really dedicate ourselves to being in this moment, and showing up in this moment from this space of awakened consciousness, is the greatest way to change the world. And then from this space, whoever sees that, or recognizes that, or whatever, they know what to take from it, or what to get from it, based on where they’re at in their journey, or their search, or their space in their life. And so that’s the most important thing, or else it becomes just an intellectual discussion that you’re having, or some of our theoretical discussion.

Rick: Yeah, I agree with all that. But what you just said was, what’s important is to live from this place yourself, and to operate from a space of awakened consciousness. And so for the person who is listening to this, who is thinking, “Yeah, it’s all well and good, but I’m not living from a space of awakened consciousness. How do I get to that space of awakened consciousness? I’d like to live from it.” And you offer life coaching, and spiritual retreats, and all kinds of things. So what practical method, other than just talking to people, which may in itself be a practical method, do you offer so that people can live from that space of awakened consciousness, or can at least move in the direction of living in that way?

Brian: So again, there’s two aspects. There’s awakening to the essence of who you are beyond time and space, and then there’s the realm within time and space. The realm within time and space, you can get better at different things, and I do assist people in that as well. I can show you how to get healthier with your body, eating better, and exercising better, and show you how to do work that you feel passionate about and that you love, and to move towards that. So these things have steps, and they take time, and they happen in increments.

Rick: Yeah, and if you were a violin master, you could give violin lessons to help people get better at that, and so on.

Brian: Exactly. So now the fun part is, how do you awaken somebody to the realm beyond time and space? It doesn’t take time, so it’s sort of the opposite. It’s like continually pointing someone back to, “You’re not going to get there. There’s no ‘there’ that you’re going to get to in this realm. It’s here now.” So continually bringing people back to the now, and back to what’s here and now, and to recognize that the essence of who they are is here and now, and creating the invitation to awaken to now, and the wholeness of now, which is the essence of who one is. That’s the short answer to the question.

Rick: Okay, and so how do you do that? You’re given a retreat, you have 20, 30 people there, and you want them to awaken to the essence of who they are. What do you do with those people?

Brian: Everything becomes paradoxical, because the how is the problem. And that’s not even a problem. It becomes like you go deeper and deeper in this thing, and every ladder that someone’s trying to create with their ego is to be seen. It’s to be seen for what it is, and not to take the illusion that if you climb the ladder, you’re going to get somewhere. So it’s really seeing the story of who you think you are, and realizing that it’s just a story, and realizing that the essence of who you are is not contained by a story, is not contained by ego identity. And the story of who you are is also, I think, another misperception I see a lot of times in the non-dual community. The story is not a problem. It’s not something you have to get rid of. If you have to get rid of it, that means that you must think it’s real. And the ego is not a problem. If you think you need to get rid of it, you must think it’s real. It’s just seeing it for what it is, and seeing that anything that has structure in the world of form comes and goes and is not the essence of who we are.

Rick: I forget who said it. Somebody said, “There’s nothing wrong with building castles in the air. That’s where they belong. Now just build a foundation under them.”

Brian: Yeah.

Rick: You know who said that? Who was that? I don’t know.

Brian: I don’t know.

Rick: Thoreau or somebody?

Brian: You said it.

Rick: Yeah, I was quoting somebody. So what you’re saying, then, is that just by having a discussion with people and pointing out to them, helping them recognize that the conceptual notion of who they are is not fundamental enough, can actually bring about a shift or help facilitate a shift to a deeper recognition. Is that fair to say?

Brian: Yes, but there’s more. I think that if it’s a teacher-student relationship, the most important thing would be what I call presence, beyond the words. To bring up Eckhart Tolle again, I would listen to him for 90 minutes or so, two hours, these kind of YouTube things that are on there nowadays. I’d listen and I’d think, “I feel different. I feel more present. I feel like I’m in the now.” I don’t feel like he said anything. I don’t know what he talked for 90 minutes, but he didn’t say anything. My mind didn’t get anything from it, which is actually his genius and his brilliance.

Rick: His voice is like a mantra. You just listen to him and it shifts you and settles you down into an attunement with where he’s at.

Brian: But if the mind can grab something and take something from it, then that’s not the intention. It’s a sense of being able to talk, but not to give the mind things to grab onto and cling to, but more to bring the mind to open, to really fully being here now. Through discussion, yes, but it can also be being silent together, meditation together. The breath is a great way to bring one to the present moment. So there’s different pointers and different things that we can point to, but they’re all pointing to being here now, being fully present here in the now, and recognizing and realizing the essence of who we are. And as you said, which I really like the term as well, being anchored – being anchored in that which is unchanging, which allows you to fully play in that which is changing. Because now there’s a sense of fearlessness that you bring to the changing world of form.

Rick: Yeah, okay good. So then as a teacher you offer a number of tools, meditation, breath, talk, maybe half a dozen other things, that can all be effective in helping people come more into alignment and establish that anchor.

Brian: But again, it’s a paradox because it’s not thinking that those tools are going to help you get there. It’s awakening to that it’s here. So it’s this paradoxical thing that both choose at the same time.

Rick: Yep. I like to use the analogy of the sun and clouds and wind. Somebody criticized me for this the other day for one of the interviews. But the sun is always shining, but let’s say there’s a lot of clouds and so you don’t see the sun. So wind could be an effective tool for helping to move the clouds. And then once the clouds are moved you see the sun, but you realize it’s not just you see the sun, you realize, “Oh, I am the sun and I’ve always been shining.” It didn’t matter whether there were clouds or not. So that’s kind of paradoxical, but it somehow relates. So in a sense, techniques and practices and all, from the perspective of realization, seem superfluous. They seem unnecessary, but from the perspective of not having had that realization, they can be effective. It takes a thorn to remove a thorn. If you’re coming out of a big mud puddle, maybe you have to take some steps in the mud before you reach the edge of the mud and you’re out of it.

Brian: With the sun, the intention would be to recognize that the sun is there, regardless of whether there are dark clouds or … whatever kind of cloudscape you’re having, that the sun is there.

Rick: But you know the average person’s experience is, let’s say the average person who has read and studied some of this stuff, but has not really had a full realization, they’re probably thinking, “Yeah, I know the sun is there, but for me it’s somewhat cloudy.” I kind of get an inkling of it, a glimpse of it, sometimes more clear, sometimes less clear, but I naturally want it to be really clear. So I’m always kind of interested in what can be offered to that person to facilitate that clarity. I think that’s kind of what you’re doing. You’re saying on the one hand, “Don’t worry about it, the sun’s always shining brightly, but also here’s some tools to help you appreciate that in a more living way.”

Brian: So the question to me is, how do you bring someone back to the truth that the sun is there right now, and how do you bring them back to it over and over and over and over until it clicks in and there’s that shift that, “Yes, it’s here right now.”

Rick: Exactly, that’s what I’m saying.

Brian: So … It’s a sense of – the world of form can be very alluring, and the world of creating a story for yourself can be very alluring. So it’s easy to, “This is interesting,” or “I’m going to come to that,” or “I don’t want this, but I do want this.” This whole “samsara” that the Buddha talked about. So to have something or someone or multiple things that continually bring you back to the essence of the truth that’s here and now, that’s this invaluable pointer that we’re talking about.

Rick: Yeah, and it is kind of sticky. It may seem absurd to have to be brought back again and again to something that’s already there, but in India they have this analogy where if you want to dye a white cloth ochre or some color, you dip it in the dye and then you bleach it in the sun, and it loses its color in the sun, most of it, but then you dip it again and you bleach it again and it loses the color, but not quite as much this time. You keep repeating that process until it doesn’t matter. You can leave it in the bright sunlight all the time and it stays fully colored, as much so as if it were in the dye. So this is the point you made of bringing people back to that again and again. It gets more and more infused and a time comes when it’s fully lived regardless of… there’s no coming back to it anymore, there’s no back and forth, that’s over.

Brian: Yeah, it’s like this is the essence of who we all are, and then it’s for the mind, the cognitive mind and the consciousness to align with the essence of who we are and to, as you said, to live from this place.

Rick: Yeah, and of course throughout thousands of years there have been so many cultures that have dedicated themselves to this or held this as their most important priority, even though it always gets forgotten and muddled and messed up. Probably every major religion was founded on this very point of recognizing this, and then of course you end up with all kinds of silly nonsense after a couple thousand years. All the great spiritual teachers, this is all what they’re talking about.

Brian: I agree, and the essence of the greatest personages is what we would call “they were mystics.” There was a sense of direct communion here and now with the infinite, and then people who came after didn’t have that same recognition, so then there was all sorts of commandments and laws and all these things, and the essence that’s here now.

Rick: Let’s kill the mystics because they’re off the program. Yeah, very good point. So how do you see your teaching, your function as a teacher, as a facilitator? How has that evolved over the last however many years you’ve been trying to do it full-time?

Brian: It’s definitely evolved, and I think what I’m talking about today is definitely an evolution. So the sense of the recognition, the essence of who one is beyond time and space and the realm within time and space, the linear realm, and really addressing both those areas. I think that’s been a big evolution in what I’m teaching and sharing now. I would give someone I haven’t mentioned yet, actually, who has been important to me, is Ken Wilber and “The Integral Life Practice,” which I think is a great book. So that’s been an important part of the evolution of what I’m sharing and teaching.

Rick: When you first contacted me, you said…

Brian: Some things about the non-dual community.

Rick: Yeah, you said you have some criticism of what currently passes as the non-dual community, which I feel your show can have a discussion about that. I’m sometimes criticized for picking on the non-dual community too much. It’s like I have some kind of axe to grind. And it’s not like I have any kind of objection. I think non-duality is the ultimate reality.

Brian: Me too.

Rick: It’s the cat’s meow, but the way it’s sometimes interpreted and presented, I have an issue with. So what were you alluding to when you said that to me?

Brian: Well, we touched on quite a few of it already, but one thing that really… There’s this whole thing of “it”. This is “it”, and this is “it”, and this is what’s “it”, and this whole discussion of “it”. First of all, that’s dualistic. You’re creating an “it” that’s separate from yourself, which is an idea, and you’re trying to maintain this idea like a trophy that you can hold up and show to everybody. That’s not the reality. That’s not the realization of non-dual… is no separation is not two, and it’s the recognition of that which is here and now, which is not in the conceptualization of an idea or a story or a hero that achieves whatever he achieves or she achieves. So that’s one. There was something else in my mind that just slipped my mind. There’s lots of things, but it’s just the sense of… oh, yeah – it becomes this big thing in the non-dual community of looking for that which is change, looking for the essence, so there’s been some discovery of that, and then seeing the world as separate from that realization or that enlightenment. And really, again, that’s a duality.

Rick: Yeah,it’s not non-dual.

Brian: It’s not non-dual. So that’s a big thing that I really see. And I’m speaking to my own journey as well. I went through and saw these different stages in myself. But what I really see is that non-dual is having no separation between the spiritual, what’s spiritual, and life or the world or form. And really giving yourself fully to what’s here in the moment, in the world of form, is that’s what is at the same time the transcendence of the world of form and the changeless.

Rick: Yeah, I was interviewing a guy a couple of weeks ago named Choboji, and he made the point that non-dual teaching traditionally is actually the final teaching. It’s not necessarily the initial teaching. And the whole non-duality concept comes from Vedanta, which means the end of the Veda. And it doesn’t mean that all the – Veda means knowledge – it doesn’t mean that all the Veda is useless. It just means, “Okay, here’s the final teaching.” If you’ve gone through all the stages of development and gotten to this stage, now this is for you. And actually it’s considered a far preliminary or prior stage, this thing you just mentioned, where there’s a duality between absolute and relative, and the two are seen as distinct and separate. That’s like kindergarten compared to the recognition of the holistic totality, oneness of everything. That’s the kind of final teaching.

Brian: Yeah, and you reminded me of something else that is another thing for me. This is Western culture that we’re in. This is America, or wherever people are listening to this, if they’re in Western culture, it’s not India. And to translate Indian culture to American culture is not enlightenment. It’s just culture. To use Sanskrit terms, and to wear different clothes, and to practice different meditations from India, is not self-realization, is not enlightenment, and it’s not spiritual awakening. Spiritual awakening, self-realization transcends culture. So certainly there’s nothing wrong with Indian culture. Indian culture is wonderful, but it’s not spiritual awakening. Do you want to say something about that?

Rick: Oh, I just got to say I agree with you. But I also say we don’t have to completely reinvent the wheel. There is an ancient tradition – What was I listening to the other day? I think it was Kirk Johnson, he was talking with Ken Wilber, and he was saying it’s funny because in science we think of new as good, but in spirituality we seem to think of old as good. And this old stuff can’t be improved upon, or we can’t learn anything new, we just have to stick to the old teachings. And he was suggesting that even in that field we can respect the old teachings, but it doesn’t mean that they’re cut in stone, that there can be even further development now in light of our modern understanding of things.

Brian: Yeah, exactly. So that’s what I’m interested in. I’m interested in terminology and ways of speaking to things, and pointing to things, and metaphors for this time, for our time, for this culture, beyond dogma, beyond superstition, just really things that are very clear for the time that we’re in now. And certainly we draw from the past, we draw from all the cultures of the past, and have appreciation and respect for what’s brought us to this point, but we’re at this point now, and moving forward from here.

Rick: But let’s not throw the baby out with the bathwater, because there are people who say, “Oh, all that Eastern stuff, let’s just blow it off, and gurus, you don’t need a guru, and anybody who’s following a guru is being silly.” I just kind of, if somebody doesn’t want to follow a guru, I respect that. If somebody does, I respect that. It’s sort of like every kind of path has its value, and people aren’t necessarily going to always do the same thing. They might be following a guru now, ten years from now they’re not, or vice versa.

Brian: I think the main thing for me that I would like to share with those listening is, is it working for you?

Rick: Yeah, yeah, exactly.

Brian: If it’s working for you, stay with it.

Rick: Yeah, more power to you.

Brian: If it’s not, change it.

Rick: Beautiful.

Brian: If you go to church every Sunday and it’s working for you, great, stay with it. If there’s a point where it’s not working for you, then try something different.

Rick: Yep, yep, one size does not fit all. I totally agree with that. So what else should we talk about?

Brian: What else should we talk about?

Rick: What else floats your boat that we haven’t covered? What things inspire you? What topics interest you? What people do you find fascinating?

Brian: I think it’s exciting that there’s, I feel like there’s – this is something we were just speaking to, there is this great appreciation and respect for the teachings that have brought us to this point and the teachers that have brought us to this point and the cultures and traditions that brought us to this point. And I also feel like there’s this new wave of teachers and healers. And I think it’s exciting, and I feel like there’s a different energy that’s being brought forward. It’s not quite as serious and dry, it’s a little more playful and fun and loose. And it’s more, as we talked about before, I think it’s more recognition of not being caught in the illusion of trying to separate yourself from the world, but really being in the world and living in the world fully, and whatever that means for you, and recognizing the essence of yourself beyond time and space that’s whole, here and now, and also, at the same time, the realm which is in time and space, which can get better and better and continue to reach higher levels of potential and growth. So that’s, I think, something exciting. And also, I think the other thing to say too, is what I see too is this new wave doesn’t necessarily identify with any particular tradition or dogma, but just truth that’s beyond dogma or tradition.

Rick: Yeah, so you’re saying that traditionally, spirituality had this reclusive connotation that you kind of had to get out of the world if you really wanted to develop spiritually. And now you can have your cake and eat it too. And maybe you’re even implying that it’s a more complete type of spirituality.

Brian: More truth, yeah, more true. I think that there is this perception that the world is bad, even put in simple terms. The world is what causes sin or illusion or whatever the different terms are, and we’re seeing now that that’s not the case. If we’re causing suffering, it’s our misperception of reality or our misunderstanding of who we really are.

Rick: I heard someone, I was reading someone the other day, and they were saying, “You know what, there’s a phase at which maybe you do have to step back from the world, because you’re so caught up and conditioned in it, it might be hard to break that conditioning.” Sort of like if you have an alcoholic addiction and you want to give it up, don’t hang out in bars. You need to step away from that. But eventually you might reach the point at which you can associate with alcoholics in order to help them. You can be in that milieu and not be tempted by it or fall prey to its temptation. Like we’re saying, whatever works for you. There might be a validity to the stage of being more reclusive, more withdrawn from active engagement, but then eventually you’ve got to turn that around and learn to integrate the silence with the activity, if you really want to complete the package.

Brian: Let me clarify something there. I’m not saying that you shouldn’t slow down or you shouldn’t take time for yourself. That’s a separate thing, which can be great for whatever phase you’re at. In fact, I think generally speaking, people in America are, you know, slowing down would be a good thing for most Americans.

Rick: You read the statistics on how much caffeine people consume, just to keep up the rat race, it’s frightening.

Brian: Then there’s the idea that the world of form is a problem or is bad, or really engaging in life or engaging in sensuality or sexuality, or just the fullness of life is a barrier to something. The realization I think is that it’s not. The world of form is not a barrier to anything. The world of form is just the world of form. If something’s appearing in front of you, – appreciating it as a reflection of the essence of the One, whatever it is. Then it becomes really embracing all the parts of yourself, and not thinking that this part is holy, but this part is not holy, or this part is enlightened, but this part is ignorant. That itself is the essence of, if there is an ignorance, then that is the essence of ignorance. It’s this creation of duality and separation that God is not everywhere at all times.

Rick: There’s an old Stephen Wright joke which I used to tell in these interviews, but I haven’t told it for a couple of years. It says, “I broke up with my girlfriend because I wasn’t really into meditation, and she really wasn’t into being alive.” Cool, so if people want to get in touch with you, what might you be able to offer them by way of some kind of spiritual teaching, or counseling, or retreats, or whatever you do?

Brian: Yes, there’s a lot of offerings that I have right now. There’s the two books, “The Big Glow” and “The Wow, The Now.” There’s some audio courses as well, which are available through my website. There’s retreats. Locally in Asheville I’ve been doing a weekly meeting, Monday nights, called “Awakening to Power,” which is interesting because …

Rick: There’s a lot going on now. There’s you, and Bentinho, and Prajna.

Brian: And they’re all my friends. That’s what I was saying, we’re all this new wave of a little bit more youthful energy coming forward. So it’s great to be friends with those guys and girls. So “Awakening to Power” is interesting because I think – it’s another thing – there’s this kind of non-dual community, this shyness of being empowered, or the whole no-doer sort of thing. So a friend of mine was saying, when I first mentioned the term to her, she said, “I have trouble with the word ‘power’.” And I said, “Well, that’s the point. That’s why I called it that.” So power not in the sense of trying to control people or manipulate people, power in the sense Eckhart Tolle used the term “power of now.” When you’re here you’re aligned with that which is the energy and currency that runs through all beings and all things, at all times. When you realize that you don’t need to be in resistance to the now, but fully say yes to it. So retreats…

Rick: Just on the note of power, there’s a lot of power in the sun. That’s the big glow. So power doesn’t necessarily have a negative connotation. It doesn’t mean…

Brian: No, not at all. And I think the more that we awaken to… Speaking of Bentinho, he said a phrase recently, “You’re infinitely worthy.” And the more that we recognize that, then power doesn’t become a bad thing. It just becomes natural that, yeah, we’re part of this power that runs through all of life. Anyway, just to finish up the offerings here, there’s a new online video program I created with a couple of other friends of mine called “Panic to Freedom”, which is…

Rick: Called what?

Brian: “Panic to Freedom”. So this is for people that are dealing with anxiety or panic, and for principles to move into that space, as an online video course. Then there’s personal coaching that I do with people as well. And I think that covers most of it.

Rick: Do you do this full-time?

Brian: Yes.

Rick: Nice. Are you able to manage it?

Brian: So far.

Rick: Good. Well, we need more people doing this full-time. Sometimes people say, “People are always too quick to go out and start teaching. Why don’t they just get a job? Why do they have to be a teacher?” But I think as long as there’s an honest acknowledgement that, “Hey, I don’t have necessarily all the answers, but I do have something of value to offer here, and I want to dedicate my energies to offering it, so if you find it of use, then great. If you don’t, then find something else that’s of use.” As long as there’s that little bit of humility, and a sense of giving more than taking, then I have no problem with the proliferation of teachers that seems to be taking place these days.

Rick: The main thing, as you said earlier, is are you, whoever you are, are you benefiting from who you’re working with? Is it valuable for you? Have you really checked yourself? And that’s the key. I find that it’s… what I tell people when they come to meetings with me is, “Your level of presence is going to dictate what comes out of this” – tonight, this evening, or whatever it is. We’ve got to go beyond this sense of entertainer and audience. It’s not like, “I’m just going to show up, and let’s see what you can do for me.” If you’re fully engaged, then that’s what you’ll get the fruits of what comes forward. So being fully engaged, being present, and then if you’re in that space, you’re going to learn something from the people that you’re engaging with, and just determining if it’s still valuable for you, if it’s a place to shift, but really to take charge and empowerment for yourself.

Rick: There’s a saying that the amount of water you draw from a reservoir depends on the size of the pipe you hook up to it. You put a drinking straw, you’re not going to draw too much. Put a big pipe, there’ll be a lot. So it’s not just up to the teacher to… well, just what you said, it’s a cooperative relationship, and everyone is part of the game.

Brian: Yeah. Agreed.

Rick: So have you covered the points of the things that you offer? Is there anything more to say about that?

Brian: I think that’s it. There could be some specific events in different places, but people can check the website for that info.

Rick: The website is brianpiergrossi.com, and I’ll be linking to that, so don’t worry about the spelling at all.

Brian: There’s a simpler domain name too, which is thebiglow.com. B-I-G-G-L-O-W.com

Rick: Are they identical?

Brian: Yes, they go to the same place.

Rick: So one just forwards to the other.

Brian: Yeah, two different domains. There’s a few different domains, actually, but they all go to the same. It’s kind of like different paths to the same truth, right?

Rick: Right. Okay, yeah, so the Big Glow redirects to Brian Peregrossi. Good. Okay, great. So thanks. This has been fun.

Brian: It has been fun, Rick. Thanks so much. I appreciate the work that you’re doing, and it’s been my pleasure and honor to share this time with you.

Rick: Yeah, me too. Say hi to all my friends down there.

Brian: I will.

Rick: Let me make a few concluding remarks. You’ve been listening to or watching an interview with Brian Pieregrossi, and this is an ongoing series, so every week there’s a new one. If you’d like to see what other ones there are to listen to, go to BATGAP.com, B-A-T-G-A-P, and you can subscribe to an email notification. You’ll get an email each time I post a new one. You’ll also see a list down the right-hand side of all the people I’ve interviewed in alphabetical order, and you can pick and choose and listen to some. I’m also going to put up a page where they’re listed in chronological order because some people have been asking for that. There is a link there to an audio podcast, if you’d like to subscribe to the podcast and listen on your iPod, and there is a discussion group that crops up around each interview, so feel free to participate in that. Usually anywhere from 100 to several hundred posts are put up by various people during the week, and they get quite interesting sometimes. There’s also a “donate” button, which I appreciate people clicking if they have the capacity. It helps me to continue doing this and perhaps do it even more full-time. So that’s about it. Thanks for listening or watching, and we’ll see you next week. [music]