Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of interviews or conversations with spiritually Awakening people. I’ve done about 520 of them now over the past 10 years. And if this is new to you, and you would like to check out earlier ones, please go to bat gap.com Bat gap and look under the past interviews menu. This enterprise this program is made possible by through the support of appreciative listeners and viewers. So if you appreciate it, and would like to support it, there’s a PayPal button on every page of the website. And when I say listeners and viewers it’s because this is available both as a video on YouTube and as an audio podcast on iTunes and Stitcher and all that. And that gap you’ll find a place to sign up for the audio podcast if you want to do that. My guest today is a net Kaiser. Welcome and
Annette Kaiser: welcome to
Rick Archer: and that is in Switzerland. They’re Interlochen, a very beautiful country where I lived for several years back in the 70s. She was born in Zurich in 1948. She is a spiritual teacher, and founder and spiritual director of a retreat center in Switzerland, which is where she’s speaking to us from and that retreat center Center has inspired many people. Of course, I’ll be linking to her retreat center from her page on bat gap calm. She’s a visionary of a universal spirituality and has written more than 10 books, two of which I’ve just been reading 99 questions for a spiritual teacher, and the path has no name, which is sort of a biographical book. After completing her studies in economics and sociology at the University of St. Gallen in Switzerland, she worked for many years in the field of development cooperation, specialising in woman’s causes and intercultural dialogue for 17 years. She was a student of Irina Tweedie, an Anglo Russian Sufi teacher who wrote the well known book Daughter of Fire. I’m sure we’ll be talking about that a lot during our conversation today, in the late 1980s, and it opened her Tai Ji dos school in which he has since trained many teachers. We’ll be talking about that. And that didn’t it he was authorized by Mrs. tweedy to continue the I’m gonna say the name of that lineage but would you pronounce that for us to do a better job?
Annette Kaiser: Naqshbandi machete the Great,
Rick Archer: thank you. This Sufi lineage guides which is the one that presumably Mrs. tweedy was in guides human beings on the path of love. In the year 2000, she developed the dough path. Am I pronouncing that right? Just dope path? Yeah, okay, that’s okay, which she continues to develop and which enhances a deep transformation of the heart as a way of living in a non dual Cosmos centric understanding. In 2017, she started teaching the art of spiritual dreamwork. She is particularly devoted to trance confessional and trans cultural evolutionary spirituality, which sounds very interesting to me, which implies an open aware state of being as the natural expression of a deep integral way of living. This fosters universal non dual spirituality and cooperation. In both areas Annette Kaiser Annette initiates and participates in many ways with different groups, centers and people in Europe and worldwide. She sees the 21st century as a call for humanity to recognize itself as inseparably one, co creating a new culture in collective wisdom and love of one heart. In addition, she engulfs engages herself on a very practical level, always in the spirit of what universal spirituality means for her. One world, one humanity one consciousness locally and globally. For instance, recently she initiated the CO creating Europe movement. for over 30 years he has been president of the not not for profit association, open hands that supports projects in Asia, Africa and Latin America. Furthermore, projects like the path of love and meditation path and the meditation. The the golden thread for one world have been inspired by her. She’s married mother of two adult children and the grandmother. Okay, that’s your intro. Wow. Well, you can forget everything on here now. Yeah. But I like to give people an overview of you know, what the person has been doing with their life. Now, you know a lot about in that. And she’s going to elaborate as we go along. So I was reading in your biography that from a very early age, you were interested in spirituality, I don’t even know if you would have called it that at first, but you had a sort of a deep devotion, interest in saints and so on. And you actually went and lived in a convent at the age of 14? Shall we start there?
Annette Kaiser: As you like,
Rick Archer: okay. Tell us about your your, you know, when you’re very young, I mean, what initially was the spark or interest that began to bubble up in you?
Annette Kaiser: Well, first of all, I went to France as an Au Pair girl,
Rick Archer: taking care of younger children or something is taking care
Annette Kaiser: of old old people people in a convent. And as my sister was going there to and that was my really dear, dear friend, I said, I am going to there. So and then, of course, it was a convent, and I was the first time confronted with the nuns, the young nuns singing in the church. And this got me this singing with this pure voice somehow opened for me questions. And there was the longing to unite somehow inside with the godly spark was then consciously emerging.
Rick Archer: I’m suppose your parents let you go there at such a young age, I too.
Annette Kaiser: Be very busy. And I even only had eight years of school. So it was very, very young, to be honest. And it was, it was quite an experience to be honest. Because I was a normal child, you know, and very alive. And then I started really the introspection, I started to look at my thoughts. My Everything. You know, I started really there with everything.
Rick Archer: That’s great. Whenever I hear these stories, I think of what I was like at the age of 14. Darren Yeah.
Annette Kaiser: Well, it was not only fun, I tell you.
Rick Archer: Yeah. I was interested in girls and rock and roll basically, at that age.
Annette Kaiser: I was that too before that be in the convent? You know, I let drop that for a moment. Really? Yeah, exactly.
Rick Archer: And then sounds like about a year later, you ended up in England, and you didn’t know English yet. But you went to England and you were taking care of the second mentally ill that must have been challenging. Again, at such a young age.
Annette Kaiser: Yeah. Also in in Paris, it was challenging, because I saw the first time people dying. And you know, bringing the wooden box down the stairs, seeing that the human body was in there. And yes, in England, it was very isolated. And there were people that were mentally in then I was in charge for these people and a 15 year old girl. Yes. That was tremendous. Really? Yes. Well, you know, seeing
Rick Archer: people dying and aging and getting sick. And all that was what gave the Buddha his kickstart, you know, on the path?
Annette Kaiser: Yes. Yes, it is. Somehow it’s teaching also, it’s not only terrible, in one way in the way it is opening the full spectrum of life and death. Yeah. And asking, let us ask questions.
Rick Archer: You mentioned in your book that you always wanted to know what this life is about. You wanted to know what reality is? Like? And I always again, presume you mean from an early age, you just, you know, what’s it all about? Yeah,
Annette Kaiser: yes, I had this question. Even when I started to study later, that was my fundamental question, what is reality? How do we describe it? How do we perceive it? Is it really a reality? Or is it a projection? That was very interesting also, during my studies, economical studies and sociology, and I had, you know, we studied Hegel and Marx and all I studied a lot of different approaches. And I had this deep deep question, what is reality and how can we change reality?
Rick Archer: Studying Hegel and Marx and all that. Did you feel like you’re getting any answers or did you feel like you ended up going off on a tangent.
Annette Kaiser: You see, first I had that we say that the bushwalk knowledge of economics and I was not satisfied because I didn’t get the answer. I wanted to know why is the world the way it is? And in some cultures, I didn’t get any answers. So I went to Berlin to study Marx and Hegel and the philosophers and I got at least a little bit better question answers to my questions. Because I mean, the capital explain certain things.
Rick Archer: That’s capital, his book. Yeah, that’s
Annette Kaiser: capital, because you know, how the money works. And all this. I also wrote my feet, not the thesis, but my license arbit was about the, how do we sit in, in in English, it was about indifferent on the alienation that Marx wrote from his first book till to the ground race to the to the end. So I was very interested in the human being, and how it works. But then I found out that Marx were the women were their Mother Earth, where was the question of technology, it was not in the capital. So the women’s movement also, you know, gave new questions. So I wasn’t satisfied with marks either. And, by chance, a book came into my hand. It was Penske, a Sufi person who described the cosmos you know, in, in frequencies. And I thought, wow, I couldn’t believe it was a completely different description of what reality could be or look like. And later, I was with Muktananda. The correspondence course I did for seven years, and he gave me another perspective of what reality is, and that helped me to broaden up
Rick Archer: the interview. Did you meet him in person?
Annette Kaiser: Yes. I went to America to meet him.
Rick Archer: Probably. It was Santa Monica. Santa Monica. Okay.
Annette Kaiser: Yeah. Right. I because I was pregnant with my second child. And I wanted to have a, I had three wishes to meet a lady Evelyn Eaton who was a shamanic lady, to meet Muktananda. And to have actually in Big Sur, a workshop, which, because I was so highly pregnant, I changed into Tai Chi with so many another one, because I 24 hours, you know, sitting in the plane, it was just too much. So I said, No, I have to move. I have to do things. And there I started actually to discover tachy.
Rick Archer: Were you saving the workshop or teaching the work? Email? Yes. And taking it at that point? Taking it?
Annette Kaiser: It was the first contact before? Yes, yes, I did before Yoga. But traveling so much. I found Tai Chi, it’s easier for me to practice. Yeah. Yeah.
Rick Archer: I remember when I was a teenager, especially starting around the age of 17. I just had this feeling that somebody had the answers. You know, the way I put it in those days was that so and so knows where it’s at, you know? Yeah. And I’d kind of latch on to somebody and think this guy knows where it’s at. And then I’d get disillusioned now he doesn’t know where it’s at. Find the new one and latch on to him for a while. And this I went through several like that. There was I just felt like somebody must must have this figured out.
Annette Kaiser: Yeah, I see a mob behind you in the shell. Yes. Right. Yeah. I mentor to of course good.
Rick Archer: Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. We’ve been going to see her for about 20 years. Oh, just you know, once once or twice a year. Yeah. Yeah. There’s just a little thing I wrote down that maybe we’ll just pop this in here. I pulled it from one of your books. It was a quote from somebody said, one is born a mystic, but Well, one is in the face of suffering. One doesn’t know it yet. So you remember that quote?
Annette Kaiser: No. Okay. Yeah, there’s also evolution in the spiritual path. And, you know, that is I feel a deeper and deeper understanding where, you know, less and less and less on one hand, and I wouldn’t say that, I think in this way If it is true, and it is not true, you know that you have the longing as a young girl with 14 years to know more about, you know, who are we? Who is God? What is how can we change this world and have this deep emergence inside to contribute, and also to use that life in a good sense not to spoil it because it’s a gift to be a living being. This, I don’t know where that comes from your understand? Well,
Rick Archer: I really agree with you. And I don’t, not that many people appreciate what you just said, I think, in the world, so many people just go for transitory things in life that don’t have any lasting value, or they actually destroy the instrument through which life is lived, you know, consuming various things that aren’t helpful, healthy to them. So that doesn’t seem to be adequate appreciation of what a gift life is or can be, anyway.
Annette Kaiser: Right. But you know, I also think, who knows, what we really are in the depths, if I would call it mystical, not mystic, I will take that not too too much as a printed word you understand. It’s much more miraculous, the human being, and we have any time the possibility to taste full potential, what a human being can be.
Rick Archer: I think the world is miraculous to everything is miraculous. I mean, if you, if you watch science programs on the Discovery Channel or something, and they, you know, are looking at little microscopic, you know, life forms or something, you think, wow, you know, what a miracle that is? What intelligence there is, in the way it functions. And so,
Annette Kaiser: yeah, it’s, it’s really, you know, actually, you just have to be aware and look and discover, it’s the way a tree grows, it’s the way a flower opens is the perfume, or the flower or the eyes of people, or when you are present, how the bird you know, turns to you. And there is communion, it’s all there. Yeah. And yet, it is
Rick Archer: in yet again, so often, all this is taken for granted. You know, it’s like, everyone is actually living in a miracle in a miracle, they’re looking at a miracle, they’re breathing a miracle, and, you know, something profound. And yet, it’s like, you know, life is, and I think I’ll go to the movies, or I think I’ll just take some drugs or whatever, there’s, there’s just,
Annette Kaiser: yes, I know. And if he can inspire some people, you know, to discover the miracle that is, it’s great. Yeah. It changes the world.
Rick Archer: Yeah. And imagine if everyone sort of got inspired to discover that and imagine if they actually did discover it to a profound extent, you know, think how different the world would be from what it is right now. Yeah. Now, is there anything that you want to elaborate on in terms of these phases you went through such as Siddha Yoga, you also mentioned Native American pipe ceremony, or do we want to get into Mrs. tweedy?
Annette Kaiser: You see, I can see in each a tool that added Yes. Or taking away you can also say certain things. And, of course, Mrs. tweedy was then a profound time I could spend with her because she was like a mirror and catalyst Otto with Evelyn eaten, for example, the pipe woman, I learned because she died a year after I met her. And I was left alone to practice the pipe. And I learned a lot about communicate communication with Mother Earth, to animals, you know, to be observant of how things are interwoven with each other. So that was a great gift for me. With Mrs. tweedy, I had a profound mirror. You understand where I where I had I it was threshold to go over threshold. And that’s what I was looking for because for a certain time, I was the president of the transpersonal Association, Switzerland and I could meet many, many teachers. And there were not many, which we’re in resonance with my inner image of a teacher. Because I wanted to go to the root of the roots. Again, you know, to take the chance of this life, to to be ready, and to give in everything that is needed for this transformation. And with her, I had this mirror and this cutter is at
Rick Archer: work. What was the last time cutter
Annette Kaiser: catalyzer
Rick Archer: or catalyzer? Yes. Yeah. Right. Tell us more about Mrs. tweedy because many people may not have heard of her. And I unfortunately have had never had the chance to read her book daughter fire. But friends of mine have been raving about it for years. And telling what a profound book it is and what an incredible story she told. And you actually got to spend quite a few years with her. And you know, just just from the feedback I’ve gotten from friends, I have tremendous respect for her. I also have, I’ve interviewed Llewellyn Vaughan Lee, who spent a lot of time with her. So but for those who haven’t heard of her, maybe told a little bit about her story, if you feel that would be useful.
Annette Kaiser: Well, Mrs. tweedy was a Russian born lady. She later because she had to flee from the Russian Revolution. With her father, they lost the mother. They were three daughters, and they went to Vienna. That’s why she also speaks spoke English and German. And I think seven languages, Mrs. 3d spoke. And she was then meeting later. And then a banker. She married, but she was not very happy. She was living in a high society. She was always in Switzerland. He was a banker. He was very, you know, world citizen in one way. He died. Then, during war, what what I heard, she was in Italy and met her second husband, which was a captain of a ship of English ship. And she fell in love with him. And they were very, very happy. And then he died, too. And that was for her a big disaster. She didn’t want to live anymore. It may didn’t make any sense anymore. And then friends, finally she wants to die. And you know, and finally people say well, why don’t you go to the Theosophical Society? And why don’t you study Sega young. And she didn’t go in London and was the deputy car in the Theosophical Society and they had annually, a meeting in India, in IR I think it was where she met Mrs. Silver, sailboat, Selmer Silverstone or something like that a lady who told her about her teacher, Guru Ji, because the name we didn’t we didn’t speak of. And when she heard this name, something in her was changing. So she went there, and she stayed. And there she got the task of Guru Jean to write this book, Daughter of Fire. So that is her diary from the whole training. And when you read that diary, of course, you see the depth of the teaching. And within very, only few years, five years, actually, then he died. Our transformation took place of lady that was already over the 50s. So that means the patterns she had was already quite engraved. And how this was a how she was able to transform him with the help support of Gucci. So when I met when I I picked out the book, just it happened sometimes intuitively. in Bern. I read the book, and I said, Wow, that is so profound and so deep. That’s what I want. And then I went to the publisher and ask, Does she still live? Yes, she lives then. 1984 Under the head, a big Congress in the halls where Dalai Lama was the Kubler Ross, Stan Grof all these big names came together 1000 people there. So I suggested to invite Mrs. tweedy and she came to Switzerland because I was involved in the organization. And there are made for the first time. And I didn’t and just in first of all, when I entered because I met her in the hotel bill. I don’t know, it was like a black box. I went in black box, I went out, I have no memory. That’s just very interesting. And we met Dalai Lama together. I was at her side with other people. And I was just fascinated by her. But I couldn’t understand who she was what she does, who she is no idea.
Rick Archer: Had you read the book yet? At that point? You must have read it. I
Annette Kaiser: read only the small book, not the big. The big one was not yet out. I see. You understand? Sure. So what I because I had two small children, I could only because I couldn’t move so much. I invited her to come to Switzerland. So that was my way of getting
Rick Archer: Mohammed to the mountain, so to speak. Yes.
Annette Kaiser: And she came, she accepted. So for many years, I organized her retreats here and her Sufi camps to in Germany with her. And through three years, because I was a Tibetan Buddhist practitioner at that time. The Karma power line. And I just watched her and I, I didn’t understand she invited me to come to her. And when, you know, I had, of course, the expectation. Now I get big answers. You know, as you said before, the first time I was in London, she opened the door. And she had the little thing you clean the toilet with in her hand and said, I the toilet brush, I just have to finish to clean the toilet. There were 100 people here, come in welcome. Okay. And I came from the Third World trip from South Africa to her. And then she said, Well, you know, you’re hungry. And she made me spinach and egg, and some potatoes. And after, and I always was alert and waiting. No. She said, now you’re tired, you go to sleep. Okay. So I’d like
Rick Archer: that, you know, very practical,
Annette Kaiser: very practical, and she pulled you know, that’s what she did with me. She pulled every, you know, carpet under your feet, you could think you could stand up get answer or anything that would somehow you know, make you secure. The. So after three years, observing her observing her observing her. I said, I asked her if I could be her student. And she said yes. Yeah, and then there was something very, very interesting, because, you know, I had I was so in a 68 thing, I had two children, and I had a good job. I had a nice husband. But there were many areas where I didn’t look so clearly into it, you know, 68 we had this movement with other relations. And they said that, you know, and, well, it was another time and I had my issues. And I said at that point, now, I want to be honest, in every, every layer of my life,
Rick Archer: so good. So 19 You’re talking about 1968? Okay, now, you must have only been 19 in 1968.
Annette Kaiser: No, but you know, studying, you know, talk shoeless uncle, and we still had this period, where in the university there was, in a way opening that we didn’t have only tattered traditional ways, we had for example, the critical seminar, we had otter chic, which came from the Tech because lovey Chang was lava Kai, who had written the books about the third way he was a professor I provide promoted with him you understand? So, there was still this opening, you know, and then you have this movement of cash child therapy and all these you know, this. Yes, yeah. All the all these kind of trying out and other way, then the small family system, you know, and patriarchal society, so that was in a big movement,
Rick Archer: but I confused, are you saying that you already had a couple of children at the age of 19 and you’re in meetings and organizing things? 1968 You mentioned that I’m getting mixed up.
Annette Kaiser: 68 The, the movement started in Switzerland, about you know, more calls and all that you read 71 I was in Berlin studying marks. I didn’t have 10 children.
Rick Archer: Okay, okay, I got I thought this happened in 96.
Annette Kaiser: My children were 79 and 81. Okay, I had two children. And Mrs. tweedy, I started to meet at too good. Okay. Yes. So so that’s how, yeah, sorry that I mixed up a little bit as dates.
Rick Archer: Yeah. So you had this intense relationship with her? And what kind of practices where she given you? And what kind of experiences are you having? I know, in her book, which I again, I haven’t read, but people have told me about, she went through a lot of intensity, you know, just really intense stuff, working with her teacher, that you experience that kind of stuff as well, in your tutelage with her
Annette Kaiser: different, she had the challenge of being in India, in compo, cheat noise sitting outside, she was challenged on that level, I was more challenged, I would say, on a psychological level, because we all have different challenges, you know, so and, of course, we had practice, and it’s a 24 hour practice, actually, that’s what she told us. And we had a half an hour to meditate. And we had 23 hours and a half, to say the seeker that was our training, then we did spiritual dreamer side that to get in contact with our inner alchemy with the shadows with the what is going on inside to get to know yourself. So that was,
Rick Archer: so you said she gives up mantras. But I think you also said that she gave out the mantra Allah is that was that the mantra that she would give everybody or what?
Annette Kaiser: No, not everybody. She had a group mantra. And she also had some times for people to give special exercises, special tasks to do. Yes.
Rick Archer: So when you meditated for half an hour, is that what you did you use that mantra, or some mantra that you gave,
Annette Kaiser: you know, in your meditation, you don’t use the mantra, the meditation is actually a tool, where, you know, you let yourself fall into nothingness. The, the, the start with the feeling of love, and you deepen in it, and you let yourself completely go off, you know, off, it’s consciousness emptying we call it this practice. And the mantra was a concentration task that the Spirit can focus on one point. So you had this imbalance, these two aspects, which were drained, and it was in the middle of you were very busy the whole day, I will I’ve been quite busy, but you were able to do this practice.
Rick Archer: So falling into nothingness did you find that that happened quite easily that you would just fall into a very deep state? Or did you sometimes sit there and think and what’s for dinner? And I need to go back to Switzerland and you know, all kinds of superficial thoughts in the mind wouldn’t settle down.
Annette Kaiser: To be honest, I had a long long time where thoughts there they’re not so much you know, I bet that I had to have to go back and like this, but it was not an it’s not an easy meditation, because there is hardly any words you say. It’s letting yourself completely go. And it looks an easy task, but of course, it is not at all an easy task. And but still, you know, I just did it. But she also said, you know, you don’t force yourself to the edge to the edge to the edge. You have to be also kind this with yourself in a way you have to lead yourself and then with a time I noticed that there were some thoughts but beneath them asked ocean, you know, the waves and the ocean and the ocean and it was there. He was just there. So, yeah, I just did it, you know, without forcing myself but being in discipline also,
Rick Archer: I’ve been in the company of, you know, highly evolved teachers where you just sit in their presence and close your eyes and you just go very deep automatically. People say it was that way around Rama to you in His presence, he would just sink in. Did you have that experience that in Mrs. tweedy, his presence there was it was very conducive to sync.
Annette Kaiser: Absolutely. But you know, I could always be with her. Sure. Of course, yeah. You understand, I had a job, I had to earn my money. The children, I had two children, small ones. It was not possible. But for me, also, it was very, very important that I have a practice or a possibility to live in the midst of life having a very normal life, having to earn money, and at the same time, having the possibility to go through the needle.
Rick Archer: Yeah. In fact, that’s probably what most people listening to this would relate to. I mean, not too many people are going to go run off and live a monastic life, you know, and if people are going to awaken, and all that, they’re going to have to figure out how to do it. Well, dealing with all kinds of responsibilities.
Annette Kaiser: Yes, yes. I always was interested in a way to have a way that everybody if they are willing, can follow.
Rick Archer: Yeah. And that’s what the world really needs. Yes. Imagine you did the zikr. For 23 and a half hours, what’s the zikr?
Annette Kaiser: Well, usually, I don’t know if I should tell it to you. No, because actually, it is also a seeker is not just a word, it is actually also something that is electromagnetically loaded.
Rick Archer: I just don’t have any idea what it is. So you had mentioned it, and so I’m just wondering, what is that?
Annette Kaiser: Okay, I tell it, okay,
Rick Archer: prying your secrets out of you.
Annette Kaiser: Know, maybe kelps people. Yeah, exactly. That’s, that’s why you know, I opened because really, you all are the I am also aware that you you don’t give gifts just away without being conscious. You understand? It’s now used to say a mantra for people that throw it away,
Rick Archer: right? Yes, that’s just your not your pearls before swine less they turn again and rend you?
Annette Kaiser: Yeah, I that’s maybe a little bit too strong, a little harsh. Because that’s not how I feel. But you see, the mantra that she gave me was a change, because we are also I said before, I see that spirituality is in itself also in an evolutionary process. So as for me, she gave not Allah, but Ma, la.
Rick Archer: Now more feminine thing.
Annette Kaiser: Yes. Because our law means actually nothingness. Our is like the prayer and love is nothingness. Now Ma, mother, Mara, Maria means not matter, all that exists. So it is in a way to bring together nothingness and all that is, so I was very, very happy, when she gave me that mantra, because it is a new time, we are living in as we can say, if that time is existing, but we are in a transition on this world nowadays. And we need to bring together the feminine as domestic the masculine aspect on every level, not only in daily living that is very important. There is no judgment, you know, this is better or the other, but also on every level. The Get inspired in a way I say always to bring heaven on earth. Now. We have here, it’s about creating paradise. We have the potentiality as a human being. And so Marla, in this sense, makes a connection balances And we start more and more, as we said before, you know, to see the beauty in this world. And not only, you know, in the Nirvana, no, yeah,
Rick Archer: yeah, I wasn’t necessarily asking you to tell us what your actual mantra was, but just the word Zikr. itself. I didn’t know what that word means, you know, you do that for 23 hours. What is it? But But you’ve given a good answer. So, so basically, there was a use of the mantra throughout your waking hours, you’re saying,
Annette Kaiser: yeah, it’s it. Also, it’s practice, like,
Rick Archer: they call it and yeah, right?
Annette Kaiser: Yes, of course. And what does it do? What does it with a human being, it’s very, very helpful. Because normally, when we are not so aware, we are always out there somehow. Now with this job, or seeker, even if you’re very busy, a part of you is absorbed in connection with your innermost spinning. And you see exactly when you jump out, or what triggers you, and you get the wild horse back in the moment again. So it is really training till the mantra falls off. Experience with me was at a certain time, there was just presence
Rick Archer: not necessary, right? Yeah. Before that time when you were doing it, and yet doing other things, making phone calls and organizing things and everything you had to do. Did you feel that it divided your mind at all to try to do two things?
Annette Kaiser: No, no, no, no. Okay. So it was like a golden thread in the weaving of a tapestry, and the other things could dance around it.
Rick Archer: And so when the mantra of when the vicar or the mantra fell off, and there was just presence, I presume that you’re saying that, that became a an abiding state or a continuum after that? Yes, yeah. Was there anything kind of dramatic about that shift? Or was it just a quiet, subtle shift that happened? And then that’s the way it was?
Annette Kaiser: That’s the way it goes. Okay, good. stocky?
Rick Archer: Yeah. And do you feel that since then, have you felt that it’s ever disrupted or challenged by circumstances? Or is it there, even in the midst of the most intense circumstances?
Annette Kaiser: Now, I would say, you know, there’s also a path of deepening. And maybe in the beginning, when victory, something dramatic happened, there were moments I lost that. But now, I would say, I don’t know, at the moment,
Rick Archer: probably not. It’s more stable, much more stable,
Annette Kaiser: much, much mystery. It’s more, it’s more a way of being it’s not even stable. It’s a way of being natural condition. Absolutely. I think that’s the natural state of human being. Like today’s avant Avelar, she said, you know, in the inner work, last flat, she entered where the key MC wedding took place, she said, Finally, normal.
Rick Archer: Yeah, I’ve heard it described that way that anything else is sort of abnormal or subnormal or something like that. But, but that that state of perpetual presence is just normal functioning. You know?
Annette Kaiser: Yeah, I think that humanity is developing in that direction, even if it doesn’t look like at the moment because the world is crazy. seems to go crazy. But I think we are going in this direction. Yes.
Rick Archer: Do you think that craziness is in a way necessary in order for the things to be cleared out or something so that that can become the norm
Annette Kaiser: first of all, I think we could learn without having dramas it’s not necessary to suffer and to have dramas in order to learn that’s not what I really think that I see also that sometimes you know like with the climate now we have and Greta tune bear who really makes us call wake up yeah, she’s crazy what’s happening, you know, it can help. But I You understand I take whatever helps to wake us up or to become more aware. And, yes, but I don’t think that suffering is necessary.
Rick Archer: Like, you know, if the child, your mother, if the child has dirt behind its ears, the mother might want to scrub it and get the dirt off. And the child thinks it’s terrible and screams and resists and everything, but it’s a necessary step for, you know, the child’s well being. Yeah. You mentioned a few minutes ago, the possibility of heaven on earth? Do you actually think that we might be heading for such a condition? And if so, how long do you think it’ll take to reach it?
Annette Kaiser: Well, I can’t, I don’t know. I don’t read crystals. Because it depends on us, you know, and everything is that there is a field in presence where everything is possible now, because now is the only thing we have time doesn’t really exist. And then of course, at the same time, in the three dimension we live in, there is time that is, you know, this development, devolution. And yes, I think, you know, I I’m very much also the three hour window I have been the 30 years studying him, I go, often to our avail. And, and I like very much his outline how humanity can in an evolutionary process in a in a way develop, I see this possibility. But that’s not only outside, I have like, inside a clear vision of what is possible in this world. I have an image. And it’s like a blueprint. And I think many, many people when they ask themselves, how can the world look like, if I dream of a the best way, we have a very, very similar image, or having peace, or having a life indignity of being in communion with animals, plants, is Mother Earth, with the cosmos also. And of course, it the source, leaving out of the source?
Rick Archer: That’s a beautiful blueprint. And I share that too. The reason I’m asking about this is that, you know, lately, like, for instance, at the climate marches that the young people have been doing the climate strikes, some of them hold up a sign saying, you’ll die from old age, I’ll die from climate change, you know, and Catherine Ingram, who’s a teacher whom I interviewed recently wrote a long article in which she basically said that she thinks humanity is doomed, that we should make the best of the time we have left and well invited. Lee’s speaking of him, has also written something recently that has that sort of flavor to it. And they may be right. Maybe it could go that way. But I just have this optimism that somehow the awakening of consciousness that seems to be happening around the world, is not coincidental, and is sort of nature’s response to the calamity that we face and that in a quiet but powerful, and perhaps invincible way, it’ll rise up to meet the challenge that that faces us. And it has everything to do with what you’ve just been saying in terms of people becoming attuned to presence into their innermost nature. Somehow, rather, if enough people do that, then the details will work themselves out, such that we’ll have a brighter future after all, and not a cataclysmic one. Yeah, you
Annette Kaiser: see, I think what can even explain why we have a more chaotic time, there are many ways to look at that. But for example, in I remember when Dalai Lama was meeting the Hopi people 1971 saying, Now, the Holy Scriptures that were only available for a certain group of people are now open for everybody. That’s a big step that was 1970. And we have so many people that started for a spiritual path, this way or the other way. And you have also there. I mean, when I started with Mrs. tweedy, I couldn’t tell the people in my development work. I’m meditating, right? No, no, it’s possible but today, it’s very different. You have you know, this training functional cupboard scene you know, to hospitals and these and that, okay, so I think that many people are interested in in deep questions. Where do I come from? Where do I go? And why am I here are the one is the life all about it? So I think the frequency has risen of the consciousness, the average consciousness of humanity that brings out more light and shadow at the same time, it makes the polarities, more visible. Now with our media’s we are only getting the information of the shadow part. You know, when you look at the news, it’s in Trump is in every day, in the newspapers, why? You know, and there are so many initiatives when you are a little bit connected with the network. So many young people, so many people doing things, new communities, permaculture, new ways of organization, when you are informed, you see that oh, are you know growing, and it can be then there’s this wonderful image of the caterpillar and the butterfly, you know, where you see the process, very beautifully described by Barbara Marx, Hubbard also she died. But I like that, because the imago, you know, if we imagine it has, it has a power in the power of being creates, if we see the world as beautiful, or a tree or the human being, we are giving our attention to it, and the life energy goes with it. And we create, if we always have on the negative side, our focus, we create that more and more. So it needs its invitation, the time we are being to be cells of the Margo Imago cells. So that and I may I just say quickly, because I think it’s very interesting. You see the cart pillow, first of all, he eats himself food, you know. And then it’s like our time, you know, so many consequences nation, you know, consumption, then he finds a place, and he makes his shoe cocoon and his cocoon. And then it’s still it’s interesting. The introspection,
Rick Archer: the turns, the machine is no longer a caterpillar in there.
Annette Kaiser: Yeah. And then the interesting thing, then the first Imago cells come
Rick Archer: right, and just to say, a word for that is imaginal. There’s these imaginal imaginable. So yes, I interviewed Barbara.
Annette Kaiser: Oh, I see. And then they are killed. The first round. And this time, I always say it’s already passed, it was Luther King, you know, it was Gandhi. You know, this first people that really wanted to change something, you know, okay. Then he continues to process and the imaginal cells a second round arises, and then that’s very interesting, what do they do? First, they clump together. And I always say, that’s the 68 time, you know, the communes, you know, right. And then they form groups. And then they start to network. Meanwhile, the other cells start to dis integrate, which we see now the financial system, the economical system, all that. So we are in midst of that, and at a certain time, there is a soif organizing principle taking place where everything is really transformed completely into the butterfly.
Rick Archer: That’s interesting. I never I mean, I’m familiar with that explanation, but I never quite details and particularly about the imaginal cells clustering into groups and communicating and nothing else kind of disintegrating. That’s, that’s fascinating.
Annette Kaiser: Yeah, I think so too, you know, and then also the point of self organizing, you know, when we start in a way to leave or to integrate the three dimensional subject, object, World of polarity, when we are able to embrace it, and go more into the quantum field of presence. There is a shift, and then their self organizing power starts to happen. Yeah.
Rick Archer: I’ve also often or always thought that the modern means of communications are obviously instrumental in this and despite the fact that They can spread so much misinformation and negativity. They’re the means through which, you know, all this, what you and I are doing right now is getting propagated to the world that wasn’t possible, you know, even hardly possible 10 years ago, it was difficult and 20 years ago, impossible. So, you know, somehow rather things come together for purpose. And it almost seems like the the internet is the formation of a nervous system which the world needs for the dissemination of the kind of knowledge that can save the world.
Annette Kaiser: Yeah, it’s interesting all the time, have the Sharda add, you know, this evolutionary perspective. And he talks about that the humanity is like the brain of, of Mother Earth in a way, you know, and networking, as you say, to this technical knowledge we have nowadays is starting to be paused.
Rick Archer: Yeah. Speaking of Toyota shut down, you, you when I was reading your introduction, I mentioned you are particularly devoted to trans confessional and trans cultural, evolutionary spirituality, maybe this would be a good time to explain what that is. Maybe we’re already talking about it, and you want to just elaborate some more?
Annette Kaiser: Well, you see, chunks, cultural, I have been traveling a lot in the world, through by profession I had and my interest, and I found everywhere in every culture, spiritual people for conscious human being. So that’s for me, chance cultural, you understand?
Rick Archer: I found that too, I spent three months in Iran, you know, just before the Shah left, and you meet these gems of people, everywhere you go. So it’s silly to write off some country as being evil, or, you know, anything like that, because there are bright lights everywhere.
Annette Kaiser: Absolutely, that is really my experience traveling all over the world. I always need people where you can talk from heart to heart, even if the language is difficult, and where you share a humaneness in depth and beauty. That is, yeah, but that’s the the trans cultural, and also, I like the differences of the culture, you know, I always say to celebrate, when we are able, you know, not to say, separate them, oh, they are doing this or they are risk but if we take the flower bouquet of all these different flowers and perfumes of a flower, from the muesli in from the Christian or from Chinese culture, and and and I mean, it’s a big celebration could be on Earth, that’s a chance cultural. So what is the next one?
Rick Archer: Oh, there was also the phrase well, before you before we do that, let’s this this thing about the diversity, I think is important because sometimes oneness sounds like everything’s going to be the same or everybody is going to be the same. But but if you think about it, the oneness we’re talking about is not on the the level of diversity, it’s on the level of the the source of diversity. And if you think of, you know, plants as an example, if the source if the ground becomes more fertile, then you have a lot more diversity, you know, like in the rainforest, you have just a huge explosion of variety because the nourishment is greater. So I think that we’ll see that with humanity to as oneness rises, we’ll see even a greater flourishing of cultural you know, diversity, diversity and and help the the healthiness of different cultures and without them being in conflict with other cultures.
Annette Kaiser: I think that we can start only then to celebrate it really. And to see what you know, for example, I always look, I had an idea once to leave children that they should ask in each nation, their eyes, people, what is the gift I can bring to the world, our nation, our culture. And I think that when we are more present and more open, more respectful, have more tolerance. We can in a way. Bring these gifts more clearly to an expression And can you imagine to have a world guide, where you have all the contributions of nations to the community of the world? That’s, for me much more interesting than to know the old history was how many wars? And how many this and that and you know, yeah, yeah, yes.
Rick Archer: I mean, think of all the colonisation and conquest that took place in the US that, you know, coming in regarding the natives as ignorant savages needing to convert them to Christianity, forcing them to learn English and abandon their native language and their native culture and all that stuff is just a, you know, real, brutal kind of suppression of something that could have been of great value had the had the people who came there, presuming they should have come there been more open minded?
Annette Kaiser: Well, Europe has also colonial history Mamamia, you know, and it is, as you say, you know, looking from that perspective, it’s still quite barbaric. He could improve. No, really. And it’s time, I think, to move on.
Rick Archer: Let’s scissor going on this particular angle, I wonder if you have anything to say about I wonder if we could sort of put the the immigrant crisis into a spiritual context? You know, what’s exactly happening with that? If we can frame it from a spiritual perspective? And what, how would? How would enlightened leaders deal with it? You have an opinion?
Annette Kaiser: That’s a big question. And I think it’s not a simple answer. I think although there are different layers to answer that, there are very practical layers, you know, because there are more and more migrants come in how we deal with it in Europe, I mean, there are big issues, you know, that so many get on the water, you see, I that is one level, how we can deal it, how we can help, you know, to get more harmony in it, how we can open more, I think what is needed, it is a global glow call, I would say local, local, local global perspective. I think that we are on the edge of radical change, I agree, economic change the financial system. Every part that is society is touching, we have to change radically. It needs in, in, in education system. And in every social system. Everything has, I mean, everything, it’s going, you know, it falls apart more and more, it’s visible. And so I’m very, very much interested to find practical tools, how we can change globally, locally in that sense. And there, there are interesting views I have, for example, in Germany, there’s a man who writes about Karatedo, which is a new financial system, economical financial system, which he thinks he could rebalance the whole flow, you know, of rich and poor hunger and not having enough to eat no shelter, and slavery, all these all these things. So I’m connecting people trying, you know, on that field to inspire to talk about because, of course, the rich people, they have to let go of some things, but they win something. You know, for example, I was also in South Africa last winter, and I was on the footstep of Mandela, which I really highly estimate also what he did, but seeing how the black car living and how the white people are leaving the White people have, most of them have a really nice, nice life, but they have all an electric fence, and they have armed forces all around them. So they have that but at the same time, they have to fear well alive in fear underneath is not a win win situation. That could imagine you know, of course, it’s very complex. We don’t there is not you know, quick answers, but I feel for me, the consciousness shift from separation into oneness is enormously important that we overcome, you know, we are all brothers and says that we understand and start to live according it and understand deeply that this is a win win situation. Now, when you talk about the migrants, it is in a larger field, what happens in South Africa, they understand, they’re always more fences, more defenses, you know, the border, but that’s not the solution. We have to think, or we it’s not we have to be are invited to be creative, to be open for new ways of looking at things. And it is possible, if they are raining, it’s not the giraffes or the Delfines, or whoever, that disturbing the harmony of the world. It’s helping us humans. Yeah, so if we create these cows, and we are fully taking responsibility for it, we can change it. Yeah. Big if
Rick Archer: I mean, I’ve often said on this show that we could think of every single problem in the world as being just a symptom of the state of mind, of all the people in the world taken collectively. And as you said, it’s not the giraffes and the dolphins that are to blame. And, but so that would indicate if that is true, that if we’re going to actually solve all the problems of the world, which seem to be getting more and more dire, then the state of mind of all the people in the world has to change, it’s like, you could say, you know, if you want a forest to be green, then all the trees in the forest have to be green, not not just a few of the trees here and there, but all of them, and then the forest will naturally be green, and it has to come from within the trees, you can’t spray paint the forest and say, Okay, now it’s green, it won’t be a healthy forest still. So we try for external solutions, and certainly things need to be done on external levels. But if the foundation of that change, isn’t there, the Inner Awakening of sufficient numbers of people, then no amount of external fiddling with the economy or you know, the environment or anything else is going to solve the problems.
Annette Kaiser: Yeah, I agree. Because we have done many x p experiment two things already in that direction. But you know, also in the development work, I observed very clearly, if you have a pattern in yourself, or the organization, for example, giving money supporting systems or whatever, in the third world, you have a pattern and you if it’s not consciously repeated, so, you know, you can maybe approve, improve something, that that’s one side, and for me, the other side is also spirituality is a way of living. So I’m invited to be to how do I say to incorporate that, but without must, and I should more out of joy, love being connected with all that is knowing also that his dance in nothingness?
Rick Archer: Good. Okay, so we went off on a little bit of a tangent, you asked me what the second phrase is that you’re going to comment on? And that was the phrase evolutionary spirituality? What do you mean by the phrase evolutionary spirituality?
Annette Kaiser: You see, when I was with Mrs. tweedy learning, there was not an evolutionary component in it.
Rick Archer: There was not there was
Annette Kaiser: no there was no, okay. It was more about the transformation of the heart of the human being of the individual. We didn’t look so much on a global perspective.
Rick Archer: So when you say evolutionary, you’re referring to the big picture not just to the individual evolution,
Annette Kaiser: yes. When I say that, I really see because we are not to. I see that in the sense of Sri Aurobindo, Tyler Sharda, where he how humanity in the consciousness, how it has developed and what could be a next step in the big picture. That’s one thing. And another thing is, you know, that also the spiritual paths have shadows. And I discovered, for example, in our path, that the question of body is not really touched, or, in a way matter, it’s more, but you see, one has to look or I have to look very closely where I start to deny the world. But when I denied a world, how can I change, I have to love that world, knowing that it is an it is a mirror, a picture in the mirror, and there is the mirror. And still, there is a love for all that is but without attachment. So the body, you know, in our times, we discover it is a miracle. I mean, this body is absolutely a miracle, then you have the art, you know, to understand and how you can start to work with it and how it responds. And then the big issue sexuality. I mean, you know, in the spiritual thing, that’s always a theme, you don’t talk much about it. But I saw so many teachers sorry, at night, what they do, and I can’t accept it. I think there is ethic. But the natural ethic you understand. And I think that sexuality, you’ll be have nowadays, what we know from pornography, or with children, what, what all is happening to prostitutes, and then you should marry somebody, and then you know, you’re you have to be fiddled for the whole life. I mean, all these categories are for me, the old pilot ACHEMA. And we have, again, an invitation to discover a new area, where we understand the feminine and the masculine principle and how man and woman or woman, woman or man men, however, it is, how did the arrows principle can be live in a joyful in a wonderful way? Not only the AGA principle?
Rick Archer: Well, just on that point, then, you know, when we speak of a kind of a heaven on earth, situation where a much more ideal society? How do you think that that would that sexuality and relationships would look in that kind of society? Do you have any? Again, I’m asking you these hypothetical questions that may be hard to answer. But if you do have a vision or a template, like you said earlier, what, what is that part of the vision? What does that part of the vision look like?
Annette Kaiser: First of all, I think it depends very much on the individual, if men or women doesn’t matter on one way first, because if you are in harmony with yourself, your estimate also your body that has a female expression, for example. And with the masculine too, I think that each human being as like cu also says masculine and feminine aspects in variety, that can be stronger or less strong, there are women that can be more masculine than a man that has a lot of feminine side inside. So we have to be very flexible, I think, to allow to be fully the gift you are meant to be. Because each human being for me, is unique, and has special gift to share with the world community. So that to develop is one thing or if men or women. And then of course there is a polarity field on a certain level of energy between men and women or men man or woman Woman attraction. And this attraction, you can celebrate, it also has the power to create new life, which is wonderful. This part is accepted. But also that can be an exchange. The heightening or harmonizing energy to have Charley together. In a good sense is Something felt Mrs. tweedy even told us always, you know, God has given us sexuality. So it’s not something you have, you know, to make a cut on a certain edge to put it out, sturdy, it’s, you know, this and that. And, of course, our cultural conditioning is very, very strong in that aspect. So living together means that you can live your gifts that you share your gifts. I think also, there are not only couples living, there should be more freedom, maybe you have for a certain time partner, you know, that you’re very much naturally linked. The field should be out. You know, take a young also described four levels of love in partnerships, the first level is when you will fall in love, then you have to understand what is your projection and take it back, not letting it sit with the other. The third one is to have a relationship, near nearness and distance in harmony, so that each can develop himself herself. concerning her inner beam, because mostly, it’s one that can develop the cost of the other. And the fourth is unconditional love. But there is ethic in it, you know, and if so, body and spirit is in unity, and you meet another person in that you can celebrate life together. And also being too you know, I always say Jesus said, You know, if there are two, and there is an enforcement of life energy, you can really change things, you know, very strong lady way together.
Rick Archer: Imagine that every spiritual path or teach or group has its shadow. And by that I understood you to mean that they aren’t there, none of them are complete, they’re not we have, you know, the Swiss Army knife. I have one actually, they have all these little tools that you can pull out, you know, so they have everything and then practically, but you know, they don’t have a dishwasher or a blender or something, they just have the kind of things you’d expect in a knife. But I guess what you’re saying is that, you know, you know, a spiritual path or even a spiritual teacher is a relative expression. And no, no one relative expression contains everything. And so just like you were saying, with relationships, perhaps there’s legitimacy to moving from one teacher or one path to another in order to, you know, derive a variety of benefits which no one path could offer. There was a beautiful talk by Mira by star at the science and non duality conference, I’ll be interviewing her again in a week. And I think it was called BS in the garden or something. And it was about, you know, having a bit of an eclectic approach to spirituality where you go like a bee from one flower to the other, and extract the nectar that each flower has to offer. And you don’t want to be a dilettante, a superficial dabbler either in spirituality or in relationships there, there needs to be some kind of commitment and deep sort of dive into the thing that you commit yourself to. But on the other hand, there there’s a balance between complete anything goes and utter rigidity where you’re just stuck on one thing, and I guess the art is in finding that balance.
Annette Kaiser: Yeah, thank you. That’s, that’s very precise, because for example, Mrs. tweedy also said, you know, even within the Sufi tradition, a teacher sometimes sent a student to another teacher, which was more for example, enhancing to develop your will. Somebody else may be the capacity of opening the heart. And of course, it’s not flying from one beat to the other because you are not starting to take a well 100 times. No, I mean, that doesn’t make sense to you, you go deep in one end, but I didn’t mean that, you know, so much. How do I say that you have to go because this is not perfect and to the other. So it’s just to be aware, because sometimes you idealize the Spiritual Path too much, you know? And this is not healthy. Yeah, good point. Because finally, it’s not about a spiritual path. It’s about being a conscious human being that loves what is. That’s so and the others are in a way tools to help us, you know, and for some, maybe one path, and that’s it is the right thing for somebody else, maybe it’s that this for 10 years, and then maybe for 10 years, I follow something else can can be. But I think when you are asking yourself in a very honest way, deep ask what is the right thing for my growing? You get the answer?
Rick Archer: That’s a good point. Yeah. Yeah, I agree. I know, people who have been on one path for 50 years, and others who have moved around a bit, and I wouldn’t tell them, either of them that they should do something different. It’s up to them to decide. And, and I can see the benefit in both cases of doing this or this for that particular person.
Annette Kaiser: But also, you know, conveyed by has talked about the three phases of God. And there are they’re always in these three phases, the one is who I am question. And when you go the non duality path, there is a shadow part one has to be very careful, because the shadow can also brought into light, the shadow part there is to really get the root of narcissism with the question who I am. Explain that a little bit more. You know, Ramana Maharshi, asked the question who I am. But it needs a depth of really getting the root of your little island out of that you can easily in a sock to not clearly recognize if this route has been taken off completely or not.
Rick Archer: And if it hasn’t, then you’re saying that you could end up reinforcing or exactly the little Yes, well, sometimes
Annette Kaiser: yes, exactly. I understand. So that’s the shadow of the question. When I have the one, when you have the question, who are thy V? Who are you, God, you have because you’re so much in giving yourself in or up. Sometimes you give everything to God, but you don’t take yourself in it completely. You understand you have the minus ego, you have the plus ego in the first question of the minus ego in the second, or the minus of self worth, and all these some big questions. And they’re very subtle, because we are so much trained. We are no good.
Rick Archer: Yeah, well, just then when you were gesturing about God, you were kind of looking up and looking for the
Annette Kaiser: guru. Also, you know, you give everything to him. But you don’t find yourself wholly as a human being.
Rick Archer: Yeah. But obviously, I think you and I would both agree that God is not something that’s up and away or no, no separate, it goes all pervading. So it pervades this as well as prevent as well as providing, you know, the farthest. Yeah,
Annette Kaiser: but when, but when you have the tendency to give in that give yourself in. It’s, it’s very subtle, that this God, godly, everything, per se, this is completely recognized as such, there is often you know, a little gap where you go into separation. Well, and the third one is you know, that over the perfection of manifestation, there’s also a face of God as Can you process and there I think the danger is that you identify with matter. Too much, you know, that the balance, nothingness? Everything that is a very dynamic fine balance, I think.
Rick Archer: Yeah. I feel in my experience and understanding that both are equally valid. And there’s no conflict between them. And it’s not doesn’t ever have to be one or the other. It’s like, just you as you shift your attention, okay? Yes, I’m nowhere. Okay. Yes, I’m everywhere. Okay. Yes, I’m right here. You know, it’s like all Three of those things, just mesh. Yes, harmoniously?
Annette Kaiser: Yes, yes, exactly.
Rick Archer: Yeah. And people do have a tendency not only in this area, but in all areas to try to lock on to one polarity or to the exclusion of others, you know, to one opinion or attitude or belief, to the exclusion of others. And I think that’s what we’re talking about, avoid accept. Here’s an interesting question that came in from a fella named Akshay in Puna. India. Akshay asks, Are there phases of enlightenment, when people have a moment of awakening? Is that just a taste of the supreme energy? Or are they fully free now?
Annette Kaiser: Oh, that is, you know, that is very different. You remember, check Kornfield what he did with at meditation teachers. He asked about the enlightenment, you know, they had and what it has had happened afterwards. That was for me a big relevation you know, because first I thought, enlightenment light on that, Stan. Then I read that book, let’s all know, because my experience was not like that. I but every human being is very different Eckhart Tolle, you know, for example, or Byron, Katie, they had or Ramana Maharshi, they had big shifts, you know, taking place, but that’s very rare. I would say. Mostly, I see that there, there was a moment, in my experience, where there’s nothing nothingness the first time I was there, by it, that was a moment and at the same time, everything was there. And then it faded again, a little bit, you know, and then, yeah, it deepened, but you know, actually, enlightenment is now always new. It’s not really something that you know, it’s happened and then then it’s done. No, I would answer really, enlightenment is always now. You?
Rick Archer: Yes, I would agree. And I would also say that I don’t even like to use the word enlightenment because it seems to have too much of a static superlative connotation. You know. Even awakening is like, we used to call this show conversations with awakened, ordinary awakened people, and we got rid of the word awaken. We changed it to awakening, because there seems to just just be this on growing, going development. I think if you talk to Eckhart Tolle, you’re Byron, Katie, or Ramana. Look at their examples, I think they would say that they have continued to grow in various different ways since their shift. Even Romine I mean, he, he had this huge shift when he was young teenagers. And then he spent day, you know, a couple of decades in a cave, doing whatever he was doing, but and then he finally came out and was there was different to all appearances then he had been when he went in something had mature, it’s something he had integrated.
Annette Kaiser: Yeah, I agree. I also met or khatola, he was also at our place twice. And so and I saw how long it took for him to understand only what happened, and then you have to integrate it. And then it deepens also, and with Byron Katie to say,
Rick Archer: she didn’t know how to brush your teeth after whatever happened to relearn. Right.
Annette Kaiser: Right. Right. So it’s another way, but it’s, I think, that’s the beauty of being alive here is always something to discover.
Rick Archer: I think our chairs question is a good one, because I think it gives people a more realistic way of functioning and of dealing with spirituality, if you if you actually think that there’s some kind of ultimate static thing. And if you think that this person has reached it, then you’re going to have a very different impression of that person than if you realize that they too, are work in progress. And also, you’re never going to feel like you have changed anything significant because you’re not going to feel like you’ve reached the be all and end all of spiritual development. And you shouldn’t feel that because there isn’t one
Annette Kaiser: absolutely right. This 3d also said, you know, the one that says he’s enlightened isn’t Yeah. Because who says that
Rick Archer: those who say do not know those who no do not say that old saying, you know, you know,
Annette Kaiser: yeah, and it is, it is, as you say, you know, we have so much excitement about that word. And it is A little bit artificial, in a way. And there is simplicity in being simply present here now.
Rick Archer: Yeah, this is a little bit from your book that relates to what we were saying, which is you referred to three journeys from God, to God and in God. And I’ve heard that there’s a saying maybe it’s a Sufi saying that, you know, there’s an end to the path to God, but there’s no end to the path in God. Right. Did you hear that?
Annette Kaiser: Yes. It’s yeah. You know, that is a more wind where you are not a seeker anymore. You understand that? There is no you show that? There is it’s more a being in that. Being that and that is a process. I think of deepening and widening till Yeah. Yeah. And there’s beauty in it.
Rick Archer: Well, and I don’t know if there is an end. I mean, if you’re referring to the end of this life,
Annette Kaiser: I refer to the end of his life, but he continues, that
Rick Archer: may not be the right, exactly. What do we know? Yeah. I mean, who knows, Rama might still be growing in some way somewhere.
Annette Kaiser: I’m sure. There is more adventure that is waiting for
Rick Archer: us. Yeah. To me, that’s more interesting than thinking, Okay, I’m done. I’m out of here. I’m never coming back. I cease to exist or whatever. I don’t find that quite a good sales pitch.
Annette Kaiser: No, I agree. It’s, it’s interesting, isn’t it to, to, to not know exactly. But there is a dynamic there is something to discover. Yeah. And to share.
Rick Archer: I just wanted to comment earlier that we were talking about idealizing teachers and putting them on a pedestal and all that. I think it was really kind of profound and perfect that when you showed up at Mrs. Tweenies door, she was holding a toilet brush. It’s like, that’s great.
Annette Kaiser: I think so too. I mean, what an impression, you know, she just gets it back. You know, it’s the way how we wash up. It’s the way how we cook. It’s the way how we, you know, cleaned the floor. Yeah, it’s perfect. And everything else too. You know, it’s it’s all the ordinary, the ordinary can is divine. Yeah.
Rick Archer: I mean, the toilet brush is just as divine as the, the the sacred altar something, if you if you go deeply enough into what it actually is. That’s God’s
Annette Kaiser: also. Yes. And I think that changes the world. Yes.
Rick Archer: Yeah. Yeah. It also changes the world. I mean, even in terms of the way we deal with people, this is almost a cliche, because it should be obvious, but it doesn’t seem to be in terms of the way people act. But you know, those children that, you know, Trump is locking up at the Mexican border? Those are those are God in human form just as much as the greatest guru or priest or anything else. Everyone has the spark of the divine in them and should be treated accordingly. I would say,
Annette Kaiser: yes, I agree completely. Yes. I mean, yes.
Rick Archer: Which is not to say that you don’t put you know, criminals in prison and stuff like that. But if the if they’re treated as, you know, divine sparks that have just gotten a little bit overshadowed by things, then you deal with them very differently than if you regard them as just, you know, worthless people who should just be warehouse and kept out of our sight.
Annette Kaiser: Well, and even you know, criminals, for example, there are some people in Africa, they, they go completely different with people that are doing bad things in their society. Take for example, if somebody is dealing or whatever, they call them into the middle of society, and then they say, what he’s doing good first. They tell him,
Rick Archer: you know, things you’ve done.
Annette Kaiser: Yeah, that’s very interesting. And then they have like, a council way where they treated not as a prisoner, but maybe the has to do some work with help women or I don’t know what, but I found that very interesting. They’re not you know, they don’t show you the mirror or you have done this so bad and bad and bad. No, they show him you know, you’d have been a good son, you have been doing this or a good woman. You have been doing these good things. I
Rick Archer: treat him with love.
Annette Kaiser: Yeah. You know, I mean, also, I think our prisons situation how we deal with all that can also be looked at, in a different perspective. Oh, yeah,
Rick Archer: there was a Michael Moore movie, I forget whether it was Fahrenheit 911, or one of his recent movies, where he went to Scandinavia. And he went into the prison system there. And, you know, it was like, almost like a country club. Everything Everything was, was very comfortable. And people were, you know, the inmates were cooking in the kitchen with big sharp knives, but nobody was afraid. And they had a television and they could just sort of they had sports and it was just like a really nice place to kind of rehabilitate as opposed to merely being punished.
Annette Kaiser: Yeah, I think we know the results of you know, the prisons, most of the people are afterwards more criminal, have more criminal energy than before they came into prison, because it’s really harsh. I interviewed
Rick Archer: a guy, then then what is his name Damn, Damien Echols A while back, and he had been convicted of murder as a teenager, falsely convicted, he didn’t do the crime. And he spent 18 years on death row with nothing. I mean, it was just completely like this little concrete cell, he hardly ever got to see the sun, there were mosquitoes and bad food and no, no light. And he he just dedicated himself with vehement intensity to spiritual practice in order to maintain his sanity and keep himself alive. But it was is an interesting interview, if people want to check back and read it, or listen to it. And now he’s out. He got out finally, and he’s doing all it can to kind of help reform the prison system and uplift people. And it seems that, you know, some people might think and listening to this, that we keep going off on tangents. But I think all this stuff is very relevant to spirituality, at least as I understand spirituality, because spirituality is, is not just a compartment that’s off to one side of life. It’s the it’s the sort of totality of life into which everything else can fit and be given its proper orientation.
Annette Kaiser: Yeah, I have exactly the same view. For me, as I said, it’s a way of living and understanding that we are part of humanity. We are not separate, separate. And that has an effect how you look at the world.
Rick Archer: Yeah, relates to everything, criminal. Everything,
Annette Kaiser: everything inclusive. Nothing is left out.
Rick Archer: We could say yes. You’re going to shift gears a little bit abruptly here. There was an interesting part in your book, where you talked about Mrs. tweedy kind of testing you, I would say, she accused you of something that you hadn’t actually done. And it was shocking to you. And she really shook you up. And it took you years to kind of come to terms with it. So maybe we could talk about that a little bit and talk about sort of the way gurus or teachers might deal with a student. And I think that there have been cases, unfortunately, where teachers have used Crazy Wisdom as an excuse for egregious misbehavior. There’s no, no justification for things they’ve done. But there might also be cases where a teacher would actually be very strict and possibly even appear dishonest, accusing you of something you didn’t do as a teaching tool, they we can explore that a little bit.
Annette Kaiser: Yeah, that’s a hot iron, of course. And I also say a few words for today. For me, yes, that was very, very hard. That was extremely putting me on the edge of everything. Because in a way, I have put everything on the card of spirituality,
Rick Archer: had your whole life invested in it.
Annette Kaiser: Yes. And you know them, but I learned, I learned a very, very important lecture for me. How the collective works. You see, I was organizing before Sophie can and we were 500 people. And I organized with my husband together to Germany and everybody was on it, you know, do this, you know, you know, because I was organizing a lot of attention, you know, and so, and then after that, Mrs. tweedy, you know, told that to everybody, you know, that they think this this, which I didn’t. And so many people
Rick Archer: say, I mean, you say in your book that she accused you of embezzling some money and you hadn’t done any such thing. And so it seems so unfair that she would say that and everybody shun you, you know, you all sudden became a pariah that no one would speak to and they all believed her and they didn’t believe you. Anyway, just to put it in context. Go ahead.
Annette Kaiser: Yeah. Thank you. And that was I mean, you understand, I had always the question, why can it happen? The Second World War that so many people thrown the unconscious collective, you know, start to kill, and to be so brutal or we have Houghton Tutsi in Africa, we had Yugoslavia, we have all these countries, why a human being can turn, you know, and be more terrible than an animal. This question is something that came with me. In his life. I was also in Auschwitz, doing many retreats they’re sitting.
Rick Archer: And they’re right, in the actual camp of Auschwitz. Yes,
Annette Kaiser: of course. Yeah. Because I wanted to confront myself, and looking at certain things into the depths, you know, by is that possible? So, you see that, I, that that’s why I think the work we do many do that. I do that with a kind of spiritual dream work or other things, it’s so important to get to know yourself, you shadows, and your good sides and to integrate. And to understand you alchemic how when you are unconscious, you are manipulate, you are able to be manipulated on that aspect where your unconscious. So I saw how, you know, once I was in a way in the center, and then afterwards, I was, you know, completely out, and to stand for my truth. If everybody is against me, or everybody’s, for me, it doesn’t matter. The only thing I have is to follow the inner light. And I go with that. That was the teaching for
Rick Archer: me. That’s it? Yeah, let’s let’s let me reiterate that because I think people really need to get that point, which is that you became self referral. It’s like you You no longer you learn not to base your self assessment, or anything else on others opinion of you. You had to kind of stand firm in your own knowledge of who you are, and what you are, and so on. Go ahead.
Annette Kaiser: Yes. What is the truth for me? Yeah, even if Mrs. tweedy said this, I knew it was not true. And I just stand there naked in a way, you know, being blamed and all that and to stand that was, in a way, also a training for me, but that’s on an individual. So that has, yes, and also conscious how collective things work, how it can be twisted. That was very interesting, even in a spiritual context of people. Yeah,
Rick Archer: that’s so important. I mean, even in a spiritual context, you could almost say, especially in a spiritual context, although it happens in all different contexts. But every single spiritual group gets into this mentality that is unique to that group, you know, and they people begin to talk the same way and dress the same way and eat the same way and believe the same way and everything else and it just and and they’re not even aware that it’s happening very often. Because it’s, it’s like the fish isn’t aware of the water that is swimming and they’re they’re just surrounded by like minded people. And the whole thing can drift off to quite an extreme before people individually start to wake up and ask themselves What am I in here? What is going on?
Annette Kaiser: Yeah, and that’s, I mean, very, very important, you know, in the collective shield. And yeah,
Rick Archer: obviously, you got I’m sorry, go ahead.
Annette Kaiser: Continue. Of course, it was a hard learning but it was good learning and also had inside a lot of help, you know, then finally, also,
Rick Archer: me me, what do you mean inside?
Annette Kaiser: I have I had inner experiences where I got the strength to stay Yeah, just said there was a help from other planes or whatever, or insert my alchemy Yeah, that let me just stand point, you know, like that. That’s great. Yeah. But nowadays, you see, because I have of course, also students, but I wouldn’t even call I’m a spiritual teacher. And I have students I don’t work this way. I if people ask me questions, I can answer maybe certain things, but for me, it’s about to enhance their light, to recognize their light what they are and to be An adult human being taking responsibility for their own life. Good. Yeah. You understand? That’s very important.
Rick Archer: Yeah. I mean, sometimes the opposite is the happens where the teacher somehow undercuts their sense of responsibility or their sense of autonomy, and, you know, causes them to doubt their own good judgment.
Annette Kaiser: Of course, on can be a mirror, because I have no interest other than the people that they grow in, you know, being a conscious human being. And that’s wonderful. But you understand it for me, I don’t even like to define myself, to be honest.
Rick Archer: That’s okay. And actually, I just want to make one more comment about what we’ve just been saying about being more self sufficient and more, having greater trust in what pardon and grow growing up, yes, and having more trust in one’s own common sense, having common sense and having more confidence in it. Because look, what happens these days in terms of, you know, everything that goes on, and then with the news and the internet, and everything else, and they’re all these crazy conspiracy theories that float around and people. I mean, you know, people believe that Hillary Clinton was running a child pornography ring out of a pizza parlor in Washington, DC during her presidential campaign, you know, in her spare time, and some guy actually came into the pizza parlor with a big with a gun, you know, shot shot, shot it up a bit. So it’s like we need to somehow and very spiritual people, but get buy into these ideas. So it’s something that just puzzles me. I know, people in this town who have been meditating for decades, who don’t think that we landed men on the moon, because there’s some conspiracy theory on the internet. Yes, sir. About that, then there are people who think the earth is flat and will argue that and you know, till they’re blue in the face. So it seems to me that spirituality has something to do with getting to aligning one’s thinking and understanding to the way things actually are, which is how we started this interview, you talked about really wanting to know what was real. And if people are, you know, think the earth is flat, and yet they consider themselves to be interested in spirituality. There’s a big disconnect. There is a problem.
Annette Kaiser: Absolutely. 3d always so told us what is important. Common sense. Common sense. Common Sense.
Rick Archer: Great. I love it. Yeah. Yeah. Well, we still have time, I want you to talk about spiritual dream work, because you said that you’re you’re doing that these days, and you’re very interested in it. So tell us what that is about.
Annette Kaiser: You see, the dream is something very interesting. First of all, every human being dreams every night, if you know, so that he or she knows or doesn’t know,
Rick Archer: even our dogs do, they will push their legs and make little choice.
Annette Kaiser: Right. So and you know, when you believe that there is a friendliness in the universe, or in everything that exist, there is a friendliness so also with the dream Berg, there is interesting, that there is like a conscious part in the alchemy of a human being bringing forth in the night, a certain kind of information.
Rick Archer: Like we’re being we’re being taught things during our sleep.
Annette Kaiser: Yes, and you have of course, different kind of dream patterns that can be on the surface where you just I just your everyday life, they can be more deep like about their shadow dreams, then there are archetypal dreams then there are spiritual dreams, their visionary dreams that are unconscious conscious that from the Collective Unconscious field dreams. So when you start to read it, you can it’s such a great possibility to get to know yourself. Because the it’s talking to you. And we if you have the friendliness also to yourself and your dreams, even a heavy dream is in the tension in a way to liberate something to integrate something to understand something in a wider aspect and more complete. So it’s really great.
Rick Archer: So when you do this dream, work with people what do you do have them write down their dreams after they wake up in the morning then you talk about the dreams with them and try to help them understand what they’re what they’re being shown
Annette Kaiser: well, they can if they want have a dream book, you know, you also make you can also make differentiation, what is an important dream and what is not so important thing you have also sometimes just washing dreams, things washing
Rick Archer: out what happened? Yeah.
Annette Kaiser: So, and you get a sensitivity about knowing all that is important. And then for example, with a time each person has a unique dream language, that’s also interesting. And then they can read their rooms, already, when you write down your dreams to give attention, you understand more deeply, what is what does it say, then sometimes they would like to we have you know, in our retreats, they have a space where they can tell their dreams and it is spiritual dreamwork which is not exactly like Sega young or so. Would or psychologies both into making interpretation. The main thing is that the one that is the dreamer knows if it if the heart of the dream is knocked, is seen. And it’s not the competence of the one that is making interpretation. It’s the person that knows, he says, you know that there is some recognition. So, it is just a wonderful tool we learn all together, it takes some courage also to tell your dream. It’s easier than to tell other things, you know, because it’s a dream, you can always say it’s a dream, or though that is also a dream. And then yeah, we discover in a way to gather certain themes, certain aspects of life, integrating aspects we have been separating, getting to know deeper, you’re in alchemy and discover also, you’re building tools, you uniqueness in it. So I think it’s a wonderful team among many other tools. But I just I just love it in a way and I have not learned it just came to you. Yes, I was just sitting at Mrs. tweedy not being interested in dreams at all. Somehow, it just started to evolve. Yeah. And people are realizing now it’s a good tool. Yeah.
Rick Archer: It’s part of your swiss army knife. Right. I wouldn’t call it army knife. Army knife. You know, the Swiss Army knife with all the tools?
Annette Kaiser: Yeah, yes. Right. Right. But of course, Army Knife is not so much. I’m more the family. You know.
Rick Archer: I’m just because you’re in Switzerland? And, of course. Yeah. So. So you have this retreat center. And it’s a very beautiful Switzerland is probably one of the most beautiful countries in the world. And the part that you live in is very beautiful. And you you have the you have your retreat center there, which looks really nice. And you have retreats there. Are they are they taught in German, the people come from all over the world, or, you know, what, what kind of activities are there that people can participate in?
Annette Kaiser: Well, first of all, I traveled a lot. I go to Italy, to Bulgaria to different places in Yeah, I was I was also in the United States and France and these in Germany and Austria. And of course, he is more German speaking when when I have German speaking, but I can also do in English, you know, and so, yeah, I, I not so much teaching here. Actually, I’m much more teaching outside traveling. Yeah, but and I also always go there, where I’m invited. I don’t invite anything from myself. I don’t take initiatives. I go where I’m invited. And as you know, I’m also engaged with Europe, because I think we are on a critical point in the European development where we are where we have more writing things and so and I dream of the Europe looking at prior unity before or differences appear, how we could have a culture a new kind of culture together. So I’m engaged those Are there? Yeah.
Rick Archer: So. So this is let’s see what we get out of this question. But Switzerland didn’t join the EU. And now the UK was not in the EU. I know I’m saying it did not join. Oh, no, not at all. And now the UK wants to leave it. So that so I guess people have seen the EU as some kind of a unification. So and that’s what the word is European Union. And now it seems to be fragmenting a bit. So when you talk about the unification, a underlying unification of Europe, does that relate in any way to the EU? Or is he talking on a different level?
Annette Kaiser: I don’t kind of different level. Okay, as you say, because Europe is not only the EU, the EU is actually it was after the Second World War, a very good initiative that started already between the first and the second world war, because of these terrible experiences we had, we had, you know, but it was mostly also on an economic level that everybody has, again, surviving not only better good living, but there, there are many things in the politics that went now into the direction that we have now more rich and poor, we have in the world polarization. And we have developments of nationalism, we have anti semitism we have Poland, we have, you know, when we when you look at the different countries, you have a twist, where the nationalistic movement gets stronger, wanting like Brexit to go out, you know, and not to be in that understanding of Europe. But Europe, I talk about not the EU, about Europe, as actually an interesting history, as lived through a lot of things, has actually enough money, enough education, a lot of spirituality is taking place, if we could really, you know, try in a way to lift up. It could maybe be an inspiration of Federation of Europe, or the new political system, that could be helpful also for our world community. So you know, we try very small steps to come together, people that are spiritual, and have a vision for the world, for humanity in peace, and where we have a life in dignity to start in Europe. Is that initiative,
Rick Archer: nice. I’ve interviewed people who are activists, like, foster and Kimberly gamble come to mind. I remember once, they’re the ones who made the Thrive movie. And remember, Kimberly made the comment that, you know, back in the late 60s, early 70s, there was this sort of, you know, spiritual people and activists and the activists thought that virtual people were lazy, they’re sitting around our butts. And the spiritual people thought the activists were you know, and but these days, there’s a sort of coming together, where people realize that you can, you know, that both are two sides of the same coin, and that you need both in order to really affect change.
Annette Kaiser: So you see, for example, next year, there is on the 21st of September 2020, the EU and as a global peace they decorated and there are now from only to your earth and other institutions are an invitation that we do things in that we are meant I have a project also in that field for Europe. And for the whole world where I would like it is called one tree planting piece, where on the 21st of September, everybody who likes is planting a tree or putting a seed into a tarp into a pot in the spirit planting piece. Though, you know, little it helps, of course, all the climate, but he tells also, that you care about the tree, if the tree has a question, and we could also in a way, need each other around the tree listening to each other. So you know, things like that I try to somehow to connect in a very practical way that has this reom you know, being one bing, bing, all that. Is
Rick Archer: there anything with Thomas viewable?
Annette Kaiser: Yes, of course I know him. I have met him again and again. But we we tried sometimes also for Europe to gain him, but he does his things a little bit.
Rick Archer: He tries to reconcile, you know, cultures like Israel and Germany, for instance and help to resolve the collective trauma and so on.
Annette Kaiser: Exactly. He has now. Workshop. Big thing going on? And yeah, it’s wonderful. I think I’m more the pioneer for the new is more healing healing the collective I’m, you understand, I have more ideas. What could be how the emergence of the new culture could live? That’s my stream
Rick Archer: of things have the value? Oh, absolutely. There’s one final question that came in as kind of wrapping up something we talked about earlier. Let me just magnify a little bit so I can read it easier. Miroslav McMullen off from Ontario, Canada asks, Did arena Tweety make that false accusation on purpose be as a teaching tool or by mistake? And also know that the collective the group there learn anything from this experience? Not just you, but the group?
Annette Kaiser: Well, she, of course, told me later that she had a clear intuition to do that to me. For teaching to not it was not a mistake. No, no, that was very true. No, that is very clear. And I think yes, we learn with each other. So the collective also understood later that it was a teaching tool is and then of course, you have to sell for that reflection, how did I react? You know, and you have to be are always responsible for what we do and what we are. without charging, you know, it’s not about judging, it’s about learning.
Rick Archer: A spiritual teacher once said, sometimes I’ll blow warm winds your way. Other times, I’ll blow cold winds your way. And in the end, you’ll be weatherproof. Exactly. That’s nice. Said. Good. Well, is there anything else that you’d like to say before we wrap it up?
Annette Kaiser: No, I would just like to thank you very dearly, for this beautiful interview. And for the understanding of the dialogue, which was for me, very harmonious and deep. And it seems dances somehow between us. Yeah, it just
Rick Archer: kind of flowed along. You know, I didn’t have exactly any idea of how every little step of this process was gonna go. But it usually works this way that they get into kind of a Vulcan mind meld to reference the Star Trek series, where you just kind of attune to the with each other. And something nice comes out of it.
Annette Kaiser: Yeah. So I thank you, when I thank the audience, for the one that are listening to that we are able to share our deep longing for a world in peace in harmony, and knowing that it is a mirror in a teacher in the mirror, still be making good genome.
Rick Archer: Yeah. Well, thank you, Annette, I really enjoyed having this opportunity to speak with you. And thanks to those who have been listening or watching. Let’s see, next week, while you sleep, people might be watching this years from now you don’t care what’s happening next week. But for those who are watching live or keeping up with it. Next week, I’ll be going to the science and non duality conference. So there won’t be a live interview. And I’ll be interviewing several people out there and taping some other things which will end up on on that. Yep. So stay tuned for that. And that, in fact, if you have any questions for any of the people I will be interviewing if you happen to be watching this live now. You can still submit them and if they get to me, and before I leave, which is Wednesday morning, I could ask those people those questions. So anyway, thanks for your time and attention. And I will, you know, if you’d like to be notified when these when new interviews go up, you can do it two different ways. One is there’s an email notification thing on that gap. com so you can sign up for that. And the other thing is if you subscribe on YouTube, new YouTube will notify you and there’s a way of subscribing where there’s a little bell symbol next to the subscribe button and if you click the bell, then they really remind you when there’s thing when there’s a new interview or a new video rather than just sometimes reminding you so if you really always want to be reminded, click the bell. Okay. Well, thanks for that. Okay. Have a good evening and we’ll see each other again. Yes, all the best, all the best to you. Thank you. Bye bye