Alon Halel Geva Interview

Summary:

• Introduction and Biography: Alon has practiced Awareness Meditation for years and works with individuals and groups worldwide.
• Teaching Journey: Discusses the organic growth of his teaching journey.
• Illusions and Reality: Explores various illusions, including the illusion of helping others, the world, thoughts, and identity.
• Mind and Consciousness: Delves into the nature of the mind, its reactivity, and the reality of pure consciousness.
• Desire for Freedom: Talks about the burning desire to be free and the integration of the absolute and the relative in life.
• Vasanas and Obstacles: Addresses the burning of vasanas (latent tendencies) and universal obstacles.
• Degrees of Enlightenment: Explores different degrees of identification and enlightenment.
• Facing Internal Pain: Shares insights on facing internal pain and finding liberation.
• Power of Silence: Emphasizes the power of silence and realignment with the Tao.

Full transcript:

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer and my guest this week is Alon Geva. Welcome Alon, or I should say shalom?

Alon: Hello.

Rick: Alon is in Israel, right? And I don’t know too much about you because most of your YouTube videos were in Hebrew, although I listened to a number of them. So perhaps you could fill us in by just giving us a little biographical sketch to begin with, of who you are and how you came to be serving in the capacity of a spiritual teacher or spokesman, or however you would define yourself.

Alon: So basically, I think I began a search about 23 years ago, and it all began through the body. And as I was working and studying regarding the body through an art, I realized that the whole boundary is the mind. The limitation is in the mind. And as I was looking and seeing how I can be free from fear and from the mind itself, I realized that I’m actually in jail.

Rick: In jail?

Alon: In jail, that I created myself. And I realized that I do not know the way out. So I began looking within, examining, checking, and as life led me, I met a being who shared knowledge. And he called it absolute knowledge. And when I heard that, it was puzzling, because I’ve never heard about anything that is absolute. Because all I was aware of was relative. Nature, body, thought was relative. And through hearing the knowledge and looking within, I realized that the true nature of who we truly are is absolute.

Rick: And who was that being that you met, that you learned from?

Alon: Who is this being?

Rick: Yeah, you said you met a being. Who is that? Anyone we would know?

Alon: No, he’s not recognized by, he doesn’t share with many people, he’s a simple being. He lives in India. And when I heard the knowledge, I already recognized that I know it. I just forgot. So as I look within, and start examining the thoughts, the beliefs, the ideas, and seeing the nature of the mind, and the more you look within, then you realize that the mind is just a phantom. It is an illusion that appears to be real, yet it is not real at all. And as the reality starts to shine through, you realize that this is you, with no doubt. This is your true being, which is absolutely, silently, aware. And it is aware only of itself. And that’s the only reality, there’s nothing else other than that. All the rest is just a dream. And I don’t really know how come I just was sharing it with people. I never really advertised, I never did anything to promote it, just people were around and somehow were attracted to something they saw. And that’s how it happened, or happening.

Rick: So are you fairly active now as a teacher? Do you travel around and give lots of talks and things? If you call yourself a teacher, sometimes people are a little squeamish about labels, but let’s use that word for the time being.

Alon: So, for example, in Israel we get together fairly every day, twice a day, three hours and three hours.

Rick: Wow.

Alon: So is it active?

Rick: That’s pretty active. You have a small group there that you just meet with intensively.

Alon: It’s people come and go freely. I don’t have anything in particular. Sometimes I do intensives and sometimes retreats in Mexico, as well. I’ve been moving, if I go to the past memory, I’ve been moving around the globe, living in Australia, Brazil, Mexico, US, Thailand and other places. People were coming and we were examining and looking within, and awakening the master within, and each being is the master, so they can actually discriminate, concentrate and inquire into their true nature, and experience what’s real.

Rick: So you’re kind of putting people, helping people go through the same process you went through, essentially.

Alon: No.

Rick: No? What’s the difference?

Alon: The difference is that the mind, when it’s going out, it is in the mode of creating. When it’s coming back to the being of who you are, it is in a process of evolution. Although the process is an illusion and it’s not real, as long as one identifies with the thoughts and believes them to be real, then they go through an imaginary process of evolution. Each mind is in a different point of evolution and readiness and maturity. So I meet it within, as much as I can, and then guide it from there, and each one takes it and puts it into using their own capacity and maturity.

Rick: So in other words, you try to meet people where they are, whatever level of maturity or development they’re at, and then help them move from there to more mature levels. Is that what you’re saying?

Alon: Yes. The truth is that I don’t really help anybody. It appears like it.

Rick: They help themselves.

Alon: That’s right. Yes.

Rick: But, you know, it’s like, you know in chemistry, the principle of a catalyst. The catalyst facilitates a chemical reaction without actually being involved in the reaction itself. But the presence of the catalyst helps the chemical reaction to take place more efficiently or something. So maybe you could think of yourself as a catalyst.

Alon: Yes. Whatever we like to, whatever I think about myself, anyway it’s not who I truly am. I just imagine myself to be an individual entity, which is just again imagination. I imagine it in a dream, and then it appears to be totally real, and then I wake up from the dream, I realize, “Oh, wow, it was just a dream.” And then I just see that the waking state is just a longer dream, nothing more than that.

Rick: Yep. That’s how Shankara referred to it, as the long dream. But of course, you have to sort of function within the dream, so to speak, right? You can’t just say, “Oh, it’s just a dream, therefore I can walk across this street in heavy traffic and nothing will happen to me,” because the dream body can get hit by the dream car and die. Right? So you have to kind of give credence to each level of apparent reality, even though it’s not ultimately real, and learn to function at all levels in an appropriate way, wouldn’t you say?

Alon: No, I don’t think it’s necessary. It’s only just the mind is scared and is afraid and it tries to stay in control. So it says, “Yeah, it’s a dream, but…”, negates it, and says, “I need to know how to function.” Yet, when you really examine who is that “I” that thinks that it needs anything, you come to see that there is no such thing, it’s just a phantom that imagines itself, or superimposes itself on a physical form. Yet, I ask the people, “Who are you?” If you had a glimpse of who you are, then who are you? Are you an imaginary entity, or you are the reality? So there is no two, and reality has no preferences, yet the one who has this preference, or thinks it is functioning, still it has nothing to do with who I truly am. So the more one fixes the attention on who you truly are, you discriminate what you are not. And I find that discrimination is really key, and examining these ideas of “I need to know how even to function”, and I ask, “Is it true?” Just a simple question. So I use different modalities, I use the work of Byron Katie, I use different ways for people to examine, so they can really see that every thought, if you believe it to be real, it is painful. It creates an illusion of a separate entity. And it doesn’t matter what thought, even “I need” is very stressful.

Rick: Well, you know, there was a story which I’ve told before on this interview show, about Shankara, who was going to visit… You know who Shankara is, a great teacher of Vedanta, about a couple of thousand years ago. And he was going to visit a king, and the king wanted to test his wisdom, to see if it was real, or if he really walked his talk. And so, as he was approaching the palace, the king let loose this wild elephant that came chasing down the road towards Shankara, and Shankara scampered up a tree, to get out of the range of the elephant. And the king said, “Aha, you big phony, if the world is an illusion, why did you bother climbing the tree?” And Shankara said, “Well, the illusory elephant chased the illusory me up the illusory tree.” So, the point being that, you know, there is a sort of a relevance to taking appropriate action in the world, even though we can ultimately see the world as illusory, in other words, not what it appears to be.

Alon: The thing is that, the moment the “I” appears, the “I” thought, if it identifies with the body, then the body appears to be inside the world.

Rick: Right.

Alon: That’s not true though, because if you start to even look about the seer and the seen, and the world is seen by the physical “I”, so the “I” is the seer, and the world is the seen, and there is an action of seeing, yet the whole external world is inside the physical “I”. So, is there an external world, or I really imagine it, and I think it is outside? If I don’t get it, then every time I go out, I would believe that there is still an apparent reality, which I just say it’s a dream outside of me. I don’t see it enough. This is not what I experience. When there is no thought, I experience that the silence alone exists, and then when the thought appears, the world begins. So, I don’t say there is no world, because that would prove that there is a world. I just realize that the world is dependent on its existence or appearance, because due to a thought, and not vice versa. So, when there is no thought, there is no world. So, the whole work is between the thoughts and who you truly are. The thought is imaginary, and who you truly are is the only reality. And when people have a hard time, because they think they believe they are a separate entity functioning in the world, then I awaken in them the ability or guide so they can discriminate between what they call apparent reality, the world, and their thoughts about the reality. And as the mind goes more inward, then they can experience that when there is no thought, there is no apparent world, and then they can start to directly experience who they truly are, which has nothing to do with thoughts and world.

Rick: We’ll play on this concept for quite a while, I think, during this interview. In Sanskrit there is this term “mithya”, which means dependent reality, and they use this example of a pot, where the pot is really only clay, there is no pot, it’s just clay. But there is an apparent pot, and it can do pot things, you can put water in it or whatever, but really it’s only clay. So the potness of the pot is dependent on clay for its apparent existence, for its functional existence. So, when you say “apparent”, is that the sense in which you mean it? That the world appears, but it’s really nothing other than the absolute, nothing other than pure being, kind of taking the appearance, or appearing to take the appearance of people and cars and trees and the whole variety.

Alon: When the eyes are open, and when there is no thought and no division, then the experience is silence. Yet the eyes perceive, yet there is no one who perceives anything other than itself. That’s the experience, that’s an experience that everyone can experience or glimpse, if they really, for a moment, have a mind that is still.

Rick: So how do you still the mind? How does the mind become still?

Alon: When you inquire into the mind’s nature, because it is an illusion, it disappears.

Rick: And how do you inquire into the mind’s nature?

Alon: So, one of the things that I invite people to be very active mentally, means learn to discriminate the thought, learn to concentrate, and learn to inquire. And inquiry into one’s straight nature is layers. So, in one way would be inquiry that is mental, and then when there is no thought, then inquiry into one’s true nature begins, yet it’s not mental anymore. This is resting in the beingness of who you are. So, it can be, first of all, discriminating. One of the ways would be to see if the thought is real or not real. So, when one sees that a memory of the past is not real, means it’s just a thought about something that is not happening now. So, that means just an impression of an object, that the object or the situation is no longer present, then one can see that that thought, that image is not real. So that’s a discrimination. And then seeing that the future, which is imaginary, is not real, because it really is not happening yet. And I don’t even know that it ever will happen other than imagining it. So, this is something that is really key to recognize, that the “I” that imagines itself to be a physical form, occupied by the past and the future, past, future, and identify with the thoughts, like it is real, like it is happening. So, this is a form of discrimination. Another form is allowing some beliefs to surface, like thoughts that argue with life, and then ask, are these thoughts real?

Rick: Byron Katie sort of thing.

Alon: Yes, yes, Or, if the mind is more transparent and there is more presence, is to inquire where is the “I” thought arise from. Like, who is thinking? I am. Without this thought, who am I? Yet, if one is not still enough, this form of inquiry cannot be done. It’s too subtle. So, it really depends.

Rick: That’s a good point. I mean, isn’t it sort of, the mind is sort of like an ocean or a lake, which has a lot of waves in it, and the waves don’t just go to complete stillness instantaneously. They might settle down over time if there is no wind, but it’s not going to go in one minute from very choppy to zero activity.

Alon: Not necessarily. Because if the mind is shocked, instantaneously it disappears.

Rick: Like, give an example of shocked.

Alon: Shocked, you walk down the street, somebody punched your face, instantaneously, no thought. And then suddenly you realize there is blood. So, in that instant, I find when people do the work, they realize, wow, I had a glimpse of awareness, with absence of thought, when somebody punched me, when I had an accident, when something happened, so the mind instantaneously disappeared, because the mind doesn’t really know what death is. It doesn’t know it. There is a mechanism in the mind that if something happens to the body, although it identifies with death, it just disappears. And because who you are never appears and disappears, because it’s only present, if you don’t lose the consciousness, you remain.

Rick: Now, you don’t punch people in your workshops, do you?

Alon: No.

Rick: That’s good.

Alon: I don’t have to, because there is so much pain inside all of us, that has to come into the surface, that it’s challenging enough for people to face their bodily sensation, the emotions, the thoughts, that they don’t want to see and perceive. So, I don’t need to punch anyone. On the contrary, support them to be able to go through it.

Rick: Right. Now, using your example of having a shocking thing happen to you suddenly, and having that stop the mind, sure, I think we’ve all had experiences like that, but in general, isn’t there a kind of a momentum of agitation, a certain excitation, that most people’s minds have, and it just carries on? In fact, if you sit very quietly, you notice your mind is active, or if you get up in the middle of the night, let’s say, to go to the bathroom, thoughts start coming, you notice there is a certain amount of excitation. And even sleep, you know, dreaming, isn’t that mental activity, and there is some kind of activity going on in the mind all the time, sort of like a radio station playing in the background. So, what I’m asking is, doesn’t it take time and practice and perhaps inquiry over weeks, months, years, to really diminish that constant excitation in a stable way, not just a moment of quietness, but have a perpetual state of quiet mind, no matter what the circumstances?

Alon: What happens the moment the mind follows the senses to the objects of the world, it identifies itself as a physical form, an object, and then it reacts. So, all the ego is reactivity, basically. So, it reacts to bodily sensation, and it apparently reacts to the objects of the world, which is not accurate. The mind reacts only to unwanted thoughts and bodily sensation, that’s all that it is reacting to. Yet, the moment the mind apparently imagines the world external of itself, due to the five senses, then it is in reactivity, and it in conflict, fights, at war. Now, one has to work with that layer, because as long as one argues with reality, basically they cannot probe deep enough into the true being of who they are. They are just on the surface. And this is why the wise say, leave the world alone, because when you perceive objects, it generates more thoughts about the object. If you didn’t see the object, you wouldn’t even desire that object. So, what happens is that, although it’s opposite, I project the whole universe, and then I believe that I am a physical form inside the universe, suddenly there are objects, and I want these objects, and I don’t want a particular object. So, I seek pleasure and I avoid pain that way. So, as long as when I am in that position, I have to work with all the reactivity. And then, as there is less identification with the thoughts, and believing the thoughts to be real, then the mind is less reactive, and then you can direct the mind to where it arises from, and let the mind rest there. So, and that requires practice, and I see it has a critical mass as well.

Rick: Critical mass meaning you reach a certain point where it really kicks in? And the result of that practice really bears fruit? Is that what you mean by critical mass?

Alon: No, critical mass is that either every thought that appears is examined, so the mind doesn’t wander and you get lost in a dream so easily, because when the thought appears, the attention goes on the thought, and then more thoughts spring forth and you get lost, like in a tunnel vision, inside, into a dream. Yet, the moment you examine it, you don’t let the movie evolve into anything, so it cuts it. So, it has no life anymore. The only reason why the thought appears to be real, because they are evolving. So, there is a sense of “I am the one who is thinking them”, and I start to either like a particular thought and dislike other thoughts. So, if I cut it, I don’t let it evolve, suddenly the thoughts don’t have really life, that we can see in a movie. If we sit in a theater, and there is one image on the screen, everybody will start saying “Hey, hey, get the movie going!” As the movie starts, the image starts to move, then everybody hypnotized by the movie, getting emotional about it, crying, identifying, and then they come out of the movie, they say “Wow, it was a good movie!” That means I really identified with the movie, to be real. So, and then, when the movie is going, even if I know there is a screen, I forget the screen, and even if I know there is a screen, the movie veils the screen. I have to get up and touch the movie to realize that the only thing that is real is the screen, not the movie. And when the movie ends, the screen reveals. So, that’s the same with who you truly are, which is the screen in this metaphor, and the images that are projected are the thoughts. I don’t see any difference.

Rick: There is a verse in the Gita that what you said reminded me of it, “The objects of sense turn away from him who does not feed upon them, but the taste for them persists. On seeing the Supreme, even this taste vanishes or ceases.” So, the taste for them. So, there is like seed impressions still, even if you are not totally outward, indulging in senses, the taste for them persists, and the only thing that can eradicate that taste is seeing the Supreme, seeing pure consciousness.

Alon: That’s accurate. Even when the mind starts to abide in samadhi, in the beingness of who you are, the vasanas, the latent habits come into the surface, and if the attention goes into the image, what happens right away, you lose the experience of who you are, which actually is not true, because you can never lose the experience of who you are, yet because the attention goes on the thought, and the thoughts appear to be real, then the thoughts replace the reality, which in fact is not true, because thought is always, is and will remain, as an illusion, yet it just because the attention shifted from the beingness of who you are to the images of the thoughts.

Rick: Do you use the word identification sometimes when you describe this stuff? Is that a word that is part of your lexicon? Usually that word is used to describe what you are talking about here, which is you identify with the object, with the thought, whatever, it overshadows the inner being, it overshadows pure consciousness, just the way a movie overshadows the screen, and the image is gained but the pure being is lost, and so it’s like the ocean is lost in a drop.

Alon: I use the scriptures, I use the Viveka of Shankaracharya, I use the non-dual reality, I use the seer and the seen, I like to use different books from Ramana, and I use it so the mind can see and the people can actually see that the seers of truth saw the same.

Rick: Right.

Alon: So it’s up to them whether they are determined to really seek the truth by seeing what they are not, or they are too interested, getting lost in the dream. Because as long as you are interested in the thoughts, because you think they are real, then the mind would not cease, would not stop. Because the nature of the mind is to seek the truth in order to dissolve, so when the thought appears to be real, the eye gets attached to it like it is the reality.

Rick: Now there are different paths to realization obviously in the traditional scriptures, there is devotional path, there is a mechanical path, there is an intellectual path, and so on. And people naturally gravitate toward that which is appropriate for them, I guess. And it’s been my understanding that to a great extent the kind of discriminative path which you are describing is not universally applicable. It’s not going to be everybody’s path because, like you said earlier, it takes a certain level of refinement, of subtlety even to embark on that. And you can’t really do it properly if you are much more immersed in the world. You may need something different. Do you agree with that?

Alon: Yes. And I tell people when they come, it doesn’t matter what they choose, because it depends on their personality and their maturity of the mind. So, I don’t really care if people wake up or not. It’s up to them. Because I realize that the people that I call out are just a projection of my mind. When there is no projection, all there is is who I truly am, which is the only reality. So I create the people, then I think there are people or world that needs to be saved. So I’m a little bit deluded in that moment. That’s all. I just forget that’s the habit of the mind. Unless it’s really I’m doing everything, then it’s just easily get lost in a dream.

Rick: Well, Shankara spent his life running around India, establishing seats of learning, and teaching people, and Buddha did the same, and every teacher ran around, Jesus, everyone, dealing with apparent people, trying to help them wake up.

Alon: I don’t think that they were trying anything.

Rick: Well…trying is a loaded word. They were living in accordance with the Tao, you could say, and no trying was taking place, but their function was to interact with people, and they had an impact on those people.

Alon: Except I see, I don’t know about Shankaracharya, I don’t know about Buddha. They are all in my own imagination. That’s the truth. All I can see is what is the experience within, what is really happening. And as long as you fix the attention on the truth of who you are, and discriminate what you are not, everything happens by itself anyway. So I said, that’s not my business, how things play itself out, and how they happen, and what they did, and how I’m supposed to be, or what to do. These are all outdated concepts.

Rick: I brought it up because you were saying that, in a way, I thought you were saying that you felt like you made a compromise with ignorance a little bit, even acknowledging that there were people that you were interacting with, and helping, and so on. It was a sort of a cropping up of the ego that was taking place in you. And I was saying, well, you’ve got, there’s a pretty illustrious precedents for doing the very same thing. So, you know, I wouldn’t beat yourself up over it.

Alon: I realized that an ego is an illusion. Nobody ever found one. Because you cannot see the ego, because it’s all made by preferences of likes and dislikes. So, when you look into it, I see that it’s just emotion of the mind, that’s all. Thoughts appear and disappear. And when you see that every thought is an illusion, then you don’t try to change, fight, or deny, because the realization or the experience that it has nothing to do with you. Because as long as you try to get rid of a thought, what I find, you validate it is true, it is real.

Rick: Do you find that your approach is more effective for, or perhaps the people who are attracted to you, are people who can really dedicate themselves to it quite fully. And if a person is raising three kids or working on the stock market or serving in the military, or doing something which demands a lot of interaction and a lot of responsibility, that it’s not so appropriate or easy for them to fall into line with what you’re suggesting. Discrimination is not really their path at that stage. Do you agree or no?

Alon: I don’t know. I’ve seen hundreds and thousands of already people coming, going, and I don’t really know what’s best for anyone, I don’t know what fits for anyone, I don’t really know what’s going on for anyone. I don’t really know. I’m not really concerned about it because I see that anyone has to go through exactly what they have to go through. And sometimes even one word or something can change and impact them in a way that I have no idea and I never see them again. So, I don’t really know.

Rick: Let’s talk about results. The people who have been with you a lot, do you find that they are coming into attunement with the kind of realization that you yourself are living? Are they waking up to whatever terminology you want to use?

Alon: What I see, or what I share, is that people who are examining their beliefs and discriminating and inquiring into their true nature, two things, first of all, can cope with anything that appears within them, whether it’s emotion or thoughts, that means they can cope with anything that life brings, and then they experience who they truly are. So, they experience who they are, they can more discriminate what they are not. Practice doesn’t enable you to experience who you are, it just removes what you are not. Who you are is already you, you can never gain it. Once you have the recognition of who you are, if there is the yearning, the urge for liberation, then something awakens within to keep discriminating every thought that appears.

Rick: And so, does that constant discrimination conflict in any way with demanding activity or responsibility in the world? For instance, you’re an Israeli, are you obligated to go into the military every so often?

Alon: I’m not.

Rick: Oh, you’re not Israeli?

Alon: No.

Rick: Oh, okay. I was thinking you were and that you have to go into the military, and I was going to take that as an example of something in which you were put into a very demanding situation that was really quite out of keeping with your ordinary lifestyle and whether this discrimination and the fruits of it would hold up under that kind of demand.

Alon: See, you think I’m a physical form, from a separate entity you say you superimpose my identity on a physical form, and I’m coming and telling you, Rick, who you are is pure consciousness, is the beingness in the background that never moves, never changes. I never change. So, am I an Israeli or a Russian? Am I a male or I just imagine myself to be? Is the imagination real or I’m that which never moves? So, if I do not discriminate that, I might think that I’m an Israeli.

Rick: Okay, playing in the field of illusion for a moment, what nationality are you?

Alon: I don’t play in the field of illusion. I work with the illusion to see that it’s not real. I don’t play in that field. I don’t know how to play with it. You know why? Because the moment you start playing with that, you believe it to be real. And if you like what you play with, you’re even more mesmerized by it. And if you don’t like it, you start reacting to it. So, sorry, I don’t participate. I’m not interested. Each one can do whatever they want to. I’m not participant.

Rick: Do you eat food?

Alon: I don’t. The body does.

Rick: The body does. And so the body has its preferences with regard to food.

Alon: The body never has preferences.

Rick: Oh, really? The body would just as soon eat cat poop as a delicious meal? The body has preferences, yes?

Alon: The body doesn’t have any preferences. It’s the mind who has preferences. The mind that thinks that it is a physical form, it has the preferences of like and dislike. The body doesn’t really care. You anesthetize the body, put it in boiling water, and it will have a great soup. No problem for it. The body has no preferences. People don’t see so clearly that the body has no desires. It’s the mind who likes or dislikes, and when the mind thinks it is a physical form, it is confused. Yet this is not what I experience. This is why, when you come, and people are exposed to hearing the knowledge, the knowledge is so clear and accurate, and it’s not something I invent. I stick to what the sages shared for thousands of years, which is a principle. That if you follow that principle, or the mind has the capability to follow it, it sees the illusion and experiences the reality. I stick with that, because I see it worked for thousands of years, and because the mechanism hasn’t changed, I don’t make any new age. I just bring what the sages saw, I follow the principle, and I realize it from within. So now people can see it for themselves. So they are not dependent on me, they don’t follow me, they follow and examine their thoughts, and they follow the thoughts where they arise from, and they realize truly who they are. So I don’t create any following, any grouping, any nothing. They are their own being, and they are the masters, so they can free themselves out from this dream.

Rick: And I respect that you follow or that you respect the traditional teachings, because a lot of people these days blow that off. “Oh, we don’t need all those old gurus and everything, that’s old hat.” In fact, there’s this term, neo-Advaita, and it takes a very different approach than I think the traditional Advaita teachers such as Shankara and even Ramana would have taken. But I think that there’s a great wisdom in those traditions, and we shouldn’t just toss it out. Obviously it might need to be put into new terminology for our time, or adapted to our time in some way, but there’s a lot of wisdom to be found there.

Alon: When the mind really does deep work and look within, It really respects the beings who share that wisdom, because it’s exactly, it’s universal what the mind has to go through. And when you disregard it, it’s because you want to do it your own way, and that’s arrogance.

Rick: Take a shortcut.

Alon: There is no shortcut.

Rick: That’s what people are hoping to do, I think. And just taking a concept such as, you are already awake and the world is an illusion, and then thinking that you’ve done it because you’ve entertained that concept. Sure, we can all understand that intellectually, but that can be a far cry from actually living that reality.

Alon: That’s right. This is why one has to really, has the burning desire to be free. And they use the terms and it hasn’t changed. I tell people, if your butt is on fire, you’re not going to keep sitting on the chair. You’re going to jump off the chair and try to put it off. Unless you realize that it’s so painful to identify with the thoughts, and believe the thoughts to be real, and it’s so painful to believe that there is salvation in the objects of the world, you’re not going to stop. And that’s okay, you’re just not ready to see the truth. You’re just not ready to turn your face away from the thoughts and keep attaching to them and identify to whatever the mind is excusing itself to keep following the dream. And that’s okay, I respect that. I realize what it takes and each one is wherever they are. I really respect that.

Rick: Yeah. There’s a kind of, I don’t know if you’d call it a movement, or a kind of an impetus or a trend in non-dual circles these days. You hear it discussed at conferences like the Science and Non-Duality Conference, where I met your friend in the fall. The trend is kind of an embodiment thing where a lot of teachers who may have been teaching for years, have realized the absolute nature of things and the illusory nature of the world, but there is a but. And that they realize that as a being, as a human being, life has to be lived and that there could be a lot of integration yet to accomplish between the absolute and the relative, or a lot of infusion of absolute value into the relative, a lot of personality quirks and characteristics and shortcomings and weaknesses and whatnot, that are still causing problems in their relative life, even though they would say in the same breath, as you would, that that relative life is illusory, but it’s still being lived. And so they’ve kind of shifted their emphasis a little bit in terms of coming to terms with those issues. Teachers like Scott Kiloby and Jeff Foster and many others. Do you have any comments on that?

Alon: It’s just the vasanas play themselves out, and the mind has to be very strong not to follow it. Unless once they follow it and action followed, then you plant the seeds, still there is identification. Unless the I-thought fully dissolves and there is what they call sahaj samadhi, then the work is not done. I’m sorry, it doesn’t matter what words and nice books you write, it’s all very nice. And each one knows exactly what’s going on inside if they are truly honest. If they are truly honest, you cannot pretend that you are beyond your evolution. At least, even the evolution of the mind, not of who you are. And the mind has to be fully dissolved. That’s why it says a movement of the mind, of a thought, is samsara.

Rick: So do the vasanas work themselves out automatically over time? Or is there something, some technique, some practice, something that can be done to facilitate the working out of the vasanas?

Alon: Vasanas come into the surface. If you follow them, then you feed the energy. If you can observe and shift the attention from it, or discriminate it, or inquire into your true nature, then the vasanas basically lose the grip and start to dissolve. And in the presence of awareness, when the presence shines through very strong, then the vasanas just are burnt. And it takes its own time, nobody really knows how long it takes, because we do not know how long we already fed this, we practiced this habit. I am this physical body with hands and legs, I am a man, a woman, whatever it is. It’s not one lifetime.

Rick: It’s like that Gita verse I quoted, “On seeing the Supreme, even this taste ceases.” So it seems like there has to be sufficient immersion in the Supreme, in order for the vasanas really to dissolve.

Alon: That’s what I experience.

Rick: In your own case, do you find that to be an ongoing process, where vasanas tend to bubble up?

Alon: Yes, otherwise why would I talk even with you?

Rick: If you had no vasanas whatsoever, you wouldn’t be inclined to do anything?

Alon: Obviously.

Rick: You would just sit and… They speak of saints who just lie there with their mouth open, and if food happens to fall in, they eat, if it doesn’t, they die.

Alon: Because it doesn’t really matter. That’s the truth. This is why I see one has to be very vigilant, very vigilant. It’s engagement is the beginning of ignorance, when you start engaging, especially when you already experience who you are. The obstacles are more subtle now.

Rick: So the obstacles get more and more subtle as you go along.

Alon: Of course.

Rick: Do you think they ever disappear entirely?

Alon: I realize that when they disappear in that moment, in that instant, is liberation. So as long as one stays continuously as that, that’s liberation. So it’s not in the future.

Rick: But five minutes later, some vasana may bubble up again.

Alon: You have to inquire, who would I be without this thought, or who am I without this thought? So it rests again. This is what Ramana says, you have to get the mind to sink it into the source. And that’s what I experience. So it doesn’t matter what Ramana says, I see clearly that he was sincere and honest, and he speaks the pointers of truth, because the truth cannot be spoken, it is absolutely silently aware. So I use the pointers for the one who walked the path prior, and then I see that they are exactly the same for everyone. Because I see the same different sages, point exactly the same obstacles, and I experience them myself. I experience them before, too, all along the way. So I realize they don’t share their own experience, they share the obstacles that are universal for the mind to dissolve back to the beingness of who you are. So I stick with that.

Rick: Do you have any interest or participation in so-called worldly things? Do you ever read the newspaper, watch TV? Do you have a wife or a girlfriend? Or do you just sit as a teacher and just dwell on this knowledge 24/7?

Alon: All interest is due to habit. So I see the habits still play themselves out. And the more I see them and stop feeding that energy, then they fall away in their own course and accord. It’s not something I can control. It’s not something that I even do. It just appears like I am doing it, yet I see it’s the mind undoing itself, or the mind is cleaning its false identification and resting in the identity of who I truly am.

Rick: Well, for instance, Ramana, he liked to listen to the radio and read the newspaper and keep up on world affairs. That was an interest, which I guess you would say was a habit. Now, was that a shortcoming on his part? Did the habit really need to fall away? Or was that a legitimate interest, which he could do throughout his life without any kind of identification gripping him?

Alon: I don’t know there is a shortfall part on Ramana’s part. I don’t really. I see that Ramana is a conceptual image in my mind, which inspired the mind to keep doing the work. So I cannot say, I do not know about Ramana. I can only see what is the experience within. This is the direct experience and seeing the nature of the mind is ultimately between you and yourself, nobody else. So, I can read the newspaper and I might think that suddenly it is real, what’s going on there. Or I might be, I don’t know, I am not interested, yet I am totally open to anything. Yet I notice that the moment the attention goes out, then one has to be really established in who they are and not forget themselves. That’s all. I think people say, “Ramana, I think was abiding in the Self for a moment.”

Rick: I think it was a perpetual moment.

Alon: That’s right.

Rick: I think the point I am getting at is there is an implication in the way you are talking that one should withdraw from activities, from worldly interests and responsibilities, from sensory experiences and so on, because these things are going to be too challenging to the remembrance of who you are. They are going to suck you in, they are going to cause you to lose self-awareness. There may be truth to that, at least for certain people or certain stages of development. What I am suggesting is there could be a stage of development at which it wouldn’t matter if you were raising a family or having a job or serving as a soldier as Arjuna did or engaged in rather intense worldly activity, that the self-awareness would be so firmly established that it couldn’t be lost in the midst of all that.

Alon: That means the “I” sunk once and for all.

Rick: Yeah. Regardless of whether you are King Janaka governing a kingdom or a recluse.

Alon: Then there is nobody there.

Rick: Right.

Alon: So then the Self and the world are one and the same. There is no separation. Because the illusion of separation disappeared once and for all. Until it doesn’t disappear once and for all, then what happens? It’s like Ramana described it and that anyone who even experienced who they are might agree that the mind sinks for a moment and then when it comes out, it identifies with the thought, unless it discriminates it and inquires back into one’s true nature. So then I see it’s one or zero. Either one discriminates or identifies, or rests in who they truly are. If somebody has a different experience, I give him the blessings, great. I challenge it, I doubt it. Unless they have a different and new mind.

Rick: My experience is that there can be degrees of identification. You can be really lost or there can just be a more subtle challenge to it and yet the Self is still there. And you see that in the world. Some people are just so totally lost. They go out and shoot off guns in movie theaters and kill lots of people. They are just completely lost and mired in the illusion. And others are more sane and less deluded in terms of their perspective on life. And even in terms of spiritual people, don’t you find that there are degrees… It’s sort of like if you wanted to dye a white cloth, and this is a traditional analogy. You dip it in the colored dye and then you bleach it in the sun and it gets all bleached out and loses most of its color, but a little bit of color remains. And then you dip it again, bleach it again, you dip it again, bleach it again, go back and forth until eventually it can be in the bright sunlight and not fade at all. So there seems to be… You are saying it’s either one or zero, it’s on or it’s off. But it seems to me there are degrees of identification, degrees of infusion of being and it’s not black and white, it’s many, many, many shades of gray from pure white to nearly pure black.

Alon: Yeah, that’s basically just the illusion of a process from the mind’s perspective.

Rick: But in terms of people’s actual practical experience, the people you encounter, you don’t find that everyone is either completely enlightened or completely ignorant. There seems to be gradations, as you yourself were saying earlier, there are degrees of maturity.

Alon: I even challenge what is enlightenment. You say people are enlightened. I think the mind is illuminated by the beingness of who you are. And you are the source of light, so enlightenment, or if somebody thinks they are enlightened, then it’s the mind is being lit like a light, which is you, illuminating it. So it’s the same I that thinks that it is ignorant and it thinks it is enlightened, but it’s still the same I. And when this I is lost, once and for all, then all there is there is the source of light. Is it enlightenment? Who is there to report? Who knows that? Who is that I that even would say that?

Rick: It’s just a word. Like all words, it doesn’t really do justice to the thing it refers to, but it’s a word we use to denote a certain degree of realization.

Alon: Except I find that the ego is seeking enlightenment like an object.

Rick: Yeah, like I’m going to get it and it’s going to be wonderful and I’m going to be famous and all the girls are going to like me or whatever. Yeah, but that’s not the sense in which I’m using it.

Alon: The whole journey is in reverse. It’s how much I lose the identity and the world. The more I abide as the source of light. So I definitely am not enlightened. I am the source of light, which lights itself and everything else, illuminates. So, because the mind is a tricky and because it is an elusive, it makes even this journey inwardly, like what am I going to gain from this? What am I going to get? Am I going to be even more peaceful? We’re talking about you wake up from even this idea, being more peaceful, then until somebody calls you and somebody dies and you think you’re a physical form and you start to cry, like there is death and you realize, you haven’t realized that who you are never born, never dies, never change. Nothing really ever happens. You just imagine all of that. So it all really depends how earnest one is. How earnest one truly is. I’ve been around, seen around, talk is cheap, is how people really live it. And how people put it into use in their daily life and how sincere and earnest they are, that’s all. So, and how devoted they are to inquiry into their true nature by seeing what they are not and stop attaching to the thoughts like they are the reality. And because people say, what happens? I will be passive and lose everything. I say, great, what are you afraid from? If you can lose anything, anything that you lose is not the truth. The truth cannot be lost. So do you really want to know the truth? And are you willing to lose everything for that? Which is only your ideas and beliefs and your false identification. I’m not talking about objects, because even the object is projection in the mind.

Rick: I think most people start out with the kind of orientation you were just referring to, that they want to get something. I am unhappy, I want to be happy. I am unpeaceful, I want to be peaceful. And so enlightenment sounds like a good thing. It sounds like that’s the thing that’s going to give me happiness and peace. Because what can they do? That’s their orientation. They are perceiving the world from the perspective of a me, and the me can’t help but think that it’s going to get something. And obviously as you go along, the me begins to become more and more diffuse. And you realize it’s… I think you said it. Go ahead.

Alon: What I find is that also people around, they come and they say, I want to be relaxed. And I tell them, forget that. You have to go through the pain inside. Let it clear through you. Let it surface so you stop being scared of the bodily sensation. So you stop being afraid of emotions. So you stop being afraid of thoughts that appear and disappear. And that’s why people don’t like it, because they are looking for still the habit of seeking pleasure. So what happens is, because I don’t sell anything, and I don’t promote anything, so I don’t have any agenda, I don’t really care if nobody comes, if one person comes, if a hundred people come. I don’t care, I’m not in the business, so I don’t need to please the customers. So what happens, if I don’t need customers, so now they can really facilitate a place for them to do work, and meet all their pain, to clear it out. Really let it be cleared so you leave a hundred pounds behind you and start really feeling more light. Truly stop being afraid from your own imagination. Stop being afraid from bodily sensation. The mind is afraid, is scared to experience feelings. It is terrified from that. So I tell people, hey, forget. When you come here and you do this work, this is not a walk in the park. This is not like, oh, I’m going to feel good. Because the ones who think they are going to feel good, they disappear after a moment. They run away. Because what happens when all the pain comes into the surface? And I’ve seen what comes into the surface. I’ve met it inside. And I’ve seen around people what comes. And everybody, everybody, the beginning point, everybody suffers. Everyone begins with suffering. Because the moment the ego that identifies with the physical form, what drives it? Desire. I don’t want what I have, I want what I don’t have. So it’s all frustration, anger, rage, conflict, pain, war. So where it’s all stored? It’s all stored what the wise call in the chit, in the storage of memory. It’s all charged. How I’m going to feel good for a moment, still I suppress all of it, this is not going to do any good. This is just a temporary relief. This is not liberation. There is no way for liberation like that. So only when one is truly willing to face and meet everything inside them, uncompromised, then they are ready to look within, and really do the work within. Truly. This is what I find, this is what I see, I see it’s universal, whether it’s in Mexico, US, Australia, Israel, Europe, the Far East, South America, no matter where, it’s all the same. So that’s what I find. I find that it takes courage to know the truth you have to face and go through pain, which is already present.

Rick: That’s very good, I think you’re right. I think it’s very often seen in probably all societies, but in Western society, in order to avoid facing that pain, people chase after more and more excitement, more and more external stimulation, and they’re actually, like you said, they’re afraid of silence, they’re afraid of settling down and becoming introspective, because it opens up a Pandora’s box.

Alon: It sure does, it opens, and not only that, the mind wants silence, and then when you start to experience silence, the mind is terrified from the silence, because it does all the maneuvers to steer itself from it, to shift the attention, so you go out. So, the mind is a tricky, is a funny thing, it’s just an illusion, it creates all kind of things to trick itself. And one has to work with that, skillfully. Without skill, how can you work with something that is so elusive? We acquire skill for objects in the world, to do so many things, and to do the inner work, to wake up from this dream, it requires to work with the most subtle, which is the thoughts. Without the skill, I think one can have a nice dream, and if the dream is not nice, sorry to say, one moment it’s fun, the next moment it’s a nightmare, and then as long as one identifies themselves as a physical body, it’s painful, and it’s fear-driven. So, I can say, tough luck, I don’t really care if people like what I say, I don’t care if people react to what I say, I say what I say, and people can do with it whatever they like to do. I don’t really care.

Rick: Well, I think there is a general tendency these days for people to wake up to this idea, and to begin to look within, and to appreciate silence, and to discriminate, to explore, it’s becoming more and more commonplace, it used to be quite rare. And it seems to be what society really needs, because there’s been such an emphasis on the external that we’re way out of balance. The environment, technologies have become so dangerous, and polluting, and destructive, and so on, and there needs to be realignment with the Tao, to use that term again.

Alon: I don’t know that, I just see that the mind can be very, very confused, collectively and individually. I see it within, and if one doesn’t work with the confusion, and meet it with clarity, then confusion turns to be the dominant factor that runs the show.

Rick: To put it in a more cosmic perspective, we’re kind of like holograms, we’re microcosms of the macrocosm, we’re individual expressions of divine intelligence, we are divine intelligence, functioning through a manifest form, and there are certain principles which govern the universe, which also appear to be in us, such as the whole tendency to manifest more concretely, to go outward, to become more diverse, complex, and so on. And then there’s a tendency for it to go in the other direction, and that’s what someone like you is focusing on. It’s gone so far in one direction, now it’s turned around and coming back to its source. You know what I’m trying to say? You’re smiling, does that sound silly?

Alon: It’s because it’s just a story the mind tells itself.

Rick: Yeah, but there are laws of nature, there are principles by which the universe functions and is governed, and those can be understood, not just scientifically, but in a spiritual sense.

Alon: I feel, I respect what I listen and hear, it’s still a story because in deep sleep, at night when you’re in a dreamless state, all of that, where is it?

Rick: It’s in a dormant state.

Alon: So does it exist?

Rick: Not in your subjective experience, but the universe does not turn on your particular subjective experience. There’s a larger reality of which our individual subjectivity is only a peephole or a particular perspective.

Alon: No, because I see that this is a confusion. The whole universe, you’re projecting it, not from an individual point of view. And what happens then, the mind thinks it reduces itself to a physical form, then it says, I am projecting the universe from my perspective, and that’s not accurate. So I see that in deep sleep, the whole universe withdrawn, and what remains is who you are, except there is still a veiling there. So the whole law of nature that we speak about, is a projection of the mind. The whole universe, we don’t even have a proof that there is an external universe, other than thinking about it. So the only proof we have that the external universe is real, is by us imagining it, means we are dreaming it. Otherwise there is no way out to wake up from this dream. One has to look, this is why the wise says, and this is maybe what people can get out from this conversation, if they would even listen to it, is that there are three states, waking state, dreaming state, and deep sleep state. Waking state, the body is active, the mind is active and there is pure consciousness, one is alive, that’s the beingness of who they are. The dreaming state, the body is not active, the senses shut off, they lost the external universe. Now the mind is active, there is an internal universe, and one is alive, there is pure consciousness. And in deep sleep state, which is dreamless state, the body is not active, we lost the external objects of the world, the mind is not active, there is no dream world, and one is alive as the pure beingness of who they are. If we can understand that, we can see that the moment the I-thought appears, the whole subjective and objective universe begins, not prior to that. And we can see also that the three states don’t have any continuity. In the waking state, the dreaming state is not real. In the dreaming state there is no waking state, there is no objective world, there is no continuity, they cancel each other. In the dreamless state, the deep sleep state, there is no waking and dreaming state, so there is no of these two states. We can see that each state has a beginning and an end, so it’s temporary, so it has no real continuity. Therefore, none of these states can be the ultimate reality. So why should we occupy about the external universe and its natural law of nature, if it is unreal? The wise say, look away and fix the attention on what’s real. Stop being mesmerized by the unreality of things. And this is the invitation that I tell people. Ok, I understand you think it is real, I understand this law of nature, just realize, your mind tells yourself a story, that you adopted, you borrowed, and you believe it to be real, and that’s an excuse for the mind to get lost and stay in the dream. That’s all. No big deal, just recognize that. So that’s why I’m smiling, that’s all.

Rick: You don’t need an excuse to smile. Now, these three states you mentioned, these are states that a human being experiences, and maybe also dogs and cats and other beings, but as a human being we are just this tiny little speck of dust, by comparison with the vastness of consciousness itself.

Alon: So, let me ask you, who are you? Are you pure consciousness or a human being?

Rick: Ultimately pure consciousness.

Alon: Not ultimately. Not ultimately, Rick. You are pure consciousness, and then there is a thought that appears, and it thinks it is an individual entity, yet this thought is unreal, and that doesn’t change the fact that you are pure consciousness.

Rick: No, of course not.

Alon: That’s why I ask, who are you? Are you a human being or pure consciousness? Pure consciousness has nothing to do with the world or human beings. This is what people maybe fail to understand. Pure consciousness is changeless. It has nothing to do with people, dream, nothing to do with that. This is why, when sages wake up to who they truly are, they are not human beings, because the mind comes and tells me, “Yes, I understand, except as a human being I need this and that.” Ok, so you reduce yourself again from pure consciousness to an imaginary entity. Fine. Are you aware of it? Are you recognizing? Who would you be without even this thought? Are you that? Because I ask the people, ok, you recognize who you are. You might even have an experience of who you are, isn’t it?

Rick: Uh huh.

Alon: Yes. So now I ask you, who are you? Are you two or one?

Rick: Yes.

Alon: And if we stay with that…

Rick: Both.

Alon: No.

Rick: Yeah, that’s what the scriptures say, you respect the scriptures. “Brahman is both the absolute and the relative, contained within one greater wholeness.” You mentioned three states, the fourth state is turiya, which means fourth, I’m sure you’re familiar with that, pure consciousness, and that underlies the other three, and is a perpetuum. The other three come and go, as you said, and one is that fourth state, that pure consciousness. Yes, but pure consciousness, as a living reality, as a living experience, needs a nervous system, otherwise it’s just going to be flat, pure consciousness with no experience. So Brahman needs a human form in order to be lived as an actual living, breathing experience.

Alon: No.

Rick: Otherwise, when this body dies, Alon’s body dies, pure consciousness will maybe be there in its pure form, but it will no longer be interacting, exchanging, speaking, breathing, no?

Alon: Pure consciousness doesn’t need a form, or anything to express itself, because that would mean it is aware of anything other than itself, and that’s not the truth. Awareness is aware only of itself, nothing of anything else. When you’re aware of thoughts, that’s not the awareness which is aware of thoughts, it’s the mind. Now, if awareness needs anything, this is not freedom, sorry to say. If awareness needs anything to express itself, that’s not freedom. The only reason we are going through a physical form is to break free from the false identification that I am a separate entity, a physical form. So I have to die from this false identity while being in a physical form, realizing that I was never, never what I imagined myself to be, that I was always that, I am always that, and I always will be that, because all there is, is that. So that’s the only reason why we have a physical form, to wake up from this dream. Not to have the expression of the self, of Brahman, in the form. This is a New Age illusion. No, no, no, I don’t see that, sorry. That’s not what I even experience, because I imagine that Brahman is expressing itself. As Brahman, I don’t even know that. I don’t even know that.

Rick: Okay, so you just said, the only reason we have a physical form is to wake up from that dream, from that illusion that I am a separate self. So, for some reason, physical forms get created, and in the process, illusion gets established, and the realization that I am being gets lost, and the purpose of that is to come back to the realization that I am being. So in other words, we come full circle.

Alon: That’s right. The only reason why we have a physical form is the moment the mind identifies itself with an object, because a body is just an animate object, nothing more. The body is not a conscious entity. So what happens, the only reason why there is a manifestation, apparently, of a physical body, just because I identify myself as an object, so I desire the objects of the world to realize the truth, so I take another body and another body, and that’s what’s called samsara. Because what drives me is memory of the past, imaginary future, past, future, past, future, because all desires are of the future. So if I am afraid, I am afraid of pain, memory of pain of the past, and if I want pleasure, or I desire something good, it’s memory of pleasure, nothing more than that. So basically, the only reason why we have a physical form is to wake up that we are not a name and a form. We have to wake up from this dream. Otherwise the dream doesn’t stop. It doesn’t stop. And that’s what people experience. Their mind doesn’t even stop. Past, future, past, future, identifying with the thoughts, the same story, the same beliefs, reactivity. When you do seriously the work, you break free from all this illusion. This is what I experience, and this is what, when people do the work, they experience it, too.

Rick: And what I’m suggesting is that this whole cycle that we’ve just described, having a physical form, getting caught in illusion, using that physical form as a means to come out of the illusion, is a microcosm of a very similar macrocosm in which existence becomes aware of itself, assumes a kind of a creative role, universe comes forth, stars are formed, after billions of years they die and explode, heavier elements are formed, those eventually become our physical bodies. And, by virtue of having physical bodies, an embodied form can come back to the realization of its pure unembodied nature. And for some reason this whole cosmic game goes on and on, and our individual ignorance and freedom from individual ignorance to cosmic realization again, is just a sort of an isolated realization of a vast cosmic process. I didn’t explain that very well, but that’s the point I was trying to say.

Alon: You explained it very well, except I say that vastness, this vastness is all inside the mind. Yet what people fail maybe to realize is that the mind is not inside the body. The body is a conceptual image in the mind. So the whole microcosm and macrocosm of the universe is all inside the mind, just like the mind makes the division of inward and outward. Yet it’s all inside the mind. So what we call cosmic, yeah, it’s the cosmic mind.

Rick: Yeah, that’s what I take when you say mind, not just individual mind, but cosmic mind. I came across a nice Rumi quote the other day, he said, “We’re not drops in the ocean, we’re the ocean in a drop.” Well, I’m kind of playing with you here, I’m throwing out ideas that I think about and that I talk about.

Alon: I think it’s very good.

Rick: Yeah, in order to elicit your responses and to have a discussion. Sometimes I’m taking us a bit away from the essential core message that you’re trying to hit on, but it’s an opportunity to come back to it.

Alon: I think that what’s happening is perfect just as it is, and I don’t try to convey any message. Anyway, the mind hears what they’re ready to hear and what they can hear, so it doesn’t really matter. The truth cannot be spoken anyhow, because any word that is spoken can either be accepted or negated. Yet because the truth is beyond the mind, or prior to thoughts, or behind thoughts, the thought cannot accept it or negate it. So it’s better to keep silent, and if you speak, I find at least to speak around the subject, so it points the mind to where to look, to look within, because the only way out is in. So it’s to look inside you, to realize you, not what you think is you.

Rick: There’s a line from a Simon and Garfunkel song, “A man hears what he wants to hear and disregards the rest.”

Alon: Yes,

Rick: So, beautiful. I’ve been enjoying this conversation. Are there any little areas that you want to explore a bit more, or do you think we’ve done justice to it?

Alon: I don’t have any preference.

Rick: I know, you’re the kind of guy I think who wouldn’t say anything unless somebody pokes him with a question, or some kind of input, and then something comes forth. So, that’s good then, let’s wrap it up. I’ve really appreciated talking to you. I hope I’ve asked intelligent questions to elicit the sort of responses you’d like to bring out. Do you have a website by any chance?

Alon: No.

Rick: No, but you just have a Facebook page.

Alon: There is a Facebook page and there is a YouTube, there are actually a bunch of videos. There are in English and there is in Hebrew, and there is English translated to Spanish when I was in Mexico.

Rick: Right, I listened to a bunch of those. Not the Hebrew ones, but the other ones. I’ll link to those from batgap.com. I’m now speaking to those who are listening to this, so if you’d like to check out Alon’s Facebook page or listen to some of his satsangs, if you call them that, on YouTube, I’ll link to those. I suppose if people are living in Mexico or any of the other places you go, how would they find out when you’re going to be there? Do you have some kind of email that you send out?

Alon: Sometimes email, sometimes it’s word of mouth. I don’t really know. I don’t have any particular way, although if people want to contact, I’m always available.

Rick: Through Facebook, is that the way?

Alon: Facebook, although I don’t really look at the Facebook yet, there’s somebody who might be looking at it, or sending an email or Skype.

Rick: Okay, so they can get in touch with you. It sounds like the best way is through Facebook and then someone will check that and maybe set up a Skype call or whatever, right?

Alon: Yes, I’m open to speak to whomever wants to have some clarity and have some tools so they can examine their own ideas and beliefs and realize the truth and who they truly are.

Rick: Good, and you haven’t written any books, right?

Alon: No, I don’t have any intention to write either.

Rick: Okay, so we’ll do that. I’ll link to your Facebook and your YouTube channel from batgap.com. Just to make a couple of concluding points, I’ve been speaking to Alon Geva, and I’ve really appreciated this conversation. Thank you for doing it.

Alon: Thank you.

Rick: Those who are listening or watching, if you have enjoyed this conversation and would like to watch or listen to others, go to batgap.com, B-A-T-G-A-P. They’re all archived there. There’s an alphabetical list in the right-hand column and there’s also a page where they’re listed chronologically. There’s a discussion group that crops up around each interview. Feel free to participate in that. There’s a little tab that you can click to be notified by email each time a new interview is posted. There’s a “Donate” button. I appreciate that, if you feel like donating. There’s also a link to an audio podcast so that if you prefer to listen to things on an iPod rather than sit in front of your computer, you can subscribe to that. That’s pretty much it. Thanks for listening or watching and we’ll see you next week. [music]