Patricia & Bill Clum Transcript

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Patricia & Bill Clum Interview

Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer, Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of interviews with spiritually Awakening people have done over 400 of them by now. And if this is you new to you, and you’d like to see previous ones, go to And look under the past interviews menu, and you’ll see all the previous ones organized in various ways. This show is made possible by the support of appreciative listeners and viewers. And so if you appreciate it and feel like supporting it, there is a donate button on every page of the site. And also a donate page that explains the reasons why in greater detail. So my guest today are Patricia and Bill Klum. And you know what, before I even read anything biographical about them, I’m going to read a little something that somebody named Julie and Olympia Washington sent and you probably know Julie, Patricia and Bill. She was She said, I once heard Adi Shanti say that 99% of the people that come to him need more psychological work, I see that most of the spiritual teachers are mostly focusing on verbal teachings around awakening, which has its place of course, but seems to be out of balance in the sense that most people’s deeper awakening is obscured by emotional and mental patterns that have yet to be integrated. Patricia is one of the few teachers I know who is operating from an awakened heart, compassion in action, and really helping people to directly heal and integrate patterns. I’ve seen many examples of this work transforming people’s actual lives in very concrete and down to earth ways. Okay, so having read that, let me just read a bio here that explains their work in a little bit greater detail. So together, Bill and Patricia support you to build a foundation providing tools for strength in the emotional and spiritual domain, yielding flow and freedom to be who you have come here to be. A life of awakening is not one in which we never fall into a dark out dark valley. It is one in which when we fall, we have learned how to move through it. We develop emotional muscle in order to rise. This is the inner work of the soul. Patricia and build guide you to that which is unhealed, exposing how these hurts and emotions rule our lives, you’re able to face yourself learn to untangle from these aspects that have a powerful impact and influence. In the discovery of new awareness and integration, you begin to experience wholeness, embrace all emotion, letting go of resistance and live in the present moment. With sensitivity, strength and skill bill and Patricia facilitate working through levels of trauma, pain, grief and anger in order to guide people to their own divine nature. As these wounds heal, you were able to discover the depths of self acceptance and forgiveness. So, I could ask you if that’s a pretty good intro, but you probably wrote it. So you probably think it is right. What would you like to say by way of comment or elaboration on them to begin with?

Patricia Clum: Wow. You know, when we’re sitting with people, and we’re working with people a lot what happens during retreat, of course, few words can describe. So what we’re witnessing is the ripple effect of a weekend, and how people begin to open to new ways of being you know who they really are. So they’re not in life. negotiated by past hurt.

Rick Archer: So why does that happen when somebody goes on a retreat with you?

pWell, what we’ve witnessed is there’s a lot of protection around the heart where people have been traumatized hurt, can be from this lifetime, another lifetime. And those are the filters that people view life through. So when those filters we call it some people call it the ego, the ego mind. We see it as if it were a guardian angel. We feel there’s nothing wrong or bad about the ego. It’s just it’s also in transformation. And so in the place of where those filters filter life, this is how we view life through through the hurt through the pain, through the suffering. And what we believe is this work actually is the undoing of all that when people begin to emote, when the emotional body starts moving, it’s the opening.

Rick Archer: Regarding protection, you know, it’s like, there, obviously, there are times where protection is appropriate an egg need to show a fetus needs a womb. I mean, we could think of many other examples. And so you wouldn’t want to remove protection prematurely, it could be deadly. So how do you remove it? Maybe remove isn’t the right word. But how does one balance the necessity of protection with the desire to be unprotected and vulnerable? And how does that process proceed in a way, which doesn’t actually cause more wounding if one becomes prematurely vulnerable?

Patricia Clum: Yeah, that’s a really good question. So how are we kind of set up or working with another because we work with them one on one is set up is that the space is a space that’s held, which what is revealed, is ready to move into healing. So it’s an inquiry, it’s not a forcing into it’s not a reliving an event, it’s not a exposure of what? What is still, like you said, in the beauty of the protection, still needing the protection. So what we find is, when we meet people out, we’ll meet with them in a one on one session, we’ll be in conversation. And we’ll know in the meeting, as they know, if the weekend is open and available for them, they’ll know if they’re ready to move into whatever is opening for them next.

Bill Clum: This is something that doesn’t happen all at once, usually is for people who are really in a deep inquiry. And they may have done a lot of work, which supports them in the moment there and everything is brought us to this moment. So when a layer or that thin shell begins to drop, and we the vulnerability and the wrongness is actually letting us know that we’re actually on our inward journey. So what happens Friday is the plowing the ground we call is going right into the resistance and the protection. And once people discover their own, then they’re beginning to release already. And so on the Saturday as we moved into the resistance, then the work comes in. And this light comes in everything that’s not a lover light begins to surface. And then we work around the room with that. And then once people face, we face everything head on, if it’s fear, if it’s anger, we face it head on. And as we move into that, there’s an opening and then Sunday is the filling up. So there’s when there’s an emptying out of that, there’s also the filling up of of moving from that place of contraction into wholeness. So the wholeness supports that. And we may spend a lifetime moving through layers of protection, that we’re not even aware of that when it does come into our awareness that is the opportunity to actually heal that.

Rick Archer: Do the two of you feel like you’ve completed that process? Or do you do you also kind of still work through and release layers of protection?

Patricia Clum: Yeah, another beautiful question. It’s never ending and always new beginnings. So it’s sort of like the wire wider, higher, deeper, we go bigger, smaller clearing for us. And that is why we can hold space for another. Yeah, you know, because as we gather together as a group and a gathering, we hold each other. So there’s no higher or lower, bigger or better, whatever the expression would be. We’re right there in that moment, in the breath. We’ve had people come to us say it’s like we’re midwife’s. You know, when we look in their eyes, they recognize that they can move through whatever they’re moving through, into whatever’s next for them. They can trust and feel safe in that space.

Rick Archer: Do you think that there are have ever been beings on this earth who did work had worked through it all? I mean, somebody like Jesus, for instance, you know, some of the great saints and sages? Do you think that they’ve completely unraveled all the sheets that protect the heart and the and have acquired or revealed such an inner strength? They don’t need protection? Or do you think that to be a human being is to have work yet to do?

Patricia Clum: I feel that to being a human being we’re in constant evolution. So I feel that as consciousness moves and shifts and opens around us then in this form, there’s always places that we can inquire because we’re in physical form. Yeah. Now when we move into non physical form, you know, I haven’t spent time there yet. But my experience in the energy is that there, yeah, the protection isn’t needed. But here definitely in on the planet, it keeps us in life. It keeps us grounded on the planet. It keeps us being able to engage in life and be in life all around us.

Bill Clum: You know, and another part of the question also is that, you know, Jesus, Buddha, Gandhi, many avatars, we may not even know their names, there was willingness and surrender there for them to where they opened through the thresholds of awakening. And yes, they came in at a very high braid vibration. And I’m sure even in their own form, there is always something to transmute or to take a look at what, what’s not even in our awareness, right, because in in the way of the subconscious, or the unconscious moves at 190 900 times faster than the actual conscious mind. So in the weekend, when we sit still in that stillness, and in that quiet place, is where all that needs to come up comes up, it floats to the surface, to be healed, to be looked at to be transmitted back into the light. So I believe they had their own things they went through, of course,

Rick Archer: I’ve heard from various I’ve heard various sages say something to the effect that even if you work in various terminologies, even if you work through all your own stuff completely, then you’ve got, you’ve got the whole world to take on, that you become like a washing machine for all the trauma of the world.

Patricia Clum: Yeah, absolutely. We see the ripple effect. So it starts with us, that it moves in family, you know, so community, family, then community, and global consciousness, awareness. And the consciousness we’re in right now, like the different, you know, we’re 2017, on the west coast, is a different consciousness and across the ocean, where there’s a warzone, right? All right, so we’re having this opportunity to create the shift in our own hearts. So we can be that in the world. Yeah, you know, that’s the beauty of what’s happening now on the planet, is everyone’s being invited. So we don’t have to feel like we don’t make a difference of what we see happening to our brothers and sisters. You know, we can start with us first.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I’m Bill, you’re gonna say something?

Bill Clum: No, I just really what kind of woken me to all of this was the quote that Gandhi said, you know, become the change. And I thought, my God, you know, like, it was like, the first time ever heard it. And I said, Well, that’s what I can do in life. And so in that place of his wareness, that brought that awareness to me, was my opening was becoming the change that I wanted to see in the world.

Rick Archer: Yeah. As I say, people don’t have a choice but to influence the world, whatever that influence may be. We all constantly radiate an influence. And, you know, and there are a lot of people who are waking up these days, spiritually speaking. And obviously, they’re having an influence beyond what they actually say to anybody or actually do, there’s a sort of a constantly Emin, radiating or emanating influence. And they’re just to come back to a point I just suggested is, people kind of works both ways people do feel and maybe you can comment on this, that they take on stuff, you know, and maybe that comes back to the vulnerability point, it’s like, as they become more open and develop higher consciousness, they find themselves, well even shows up. I mean, some some people comment that a lot of spiritual teachers seem to be having all kinds of health problems. And why is that? Are they taking on karma? Or what’s going on? And do you have any thoughts on that?

Patricia Clum: Yeah, absolutely. So for us, I can speak of myself, you know, because that’s what I know of. So as we work with people, the counterbalance of that is the self care. So just as much energy I put out, I need to put that back in self. Yeah. So what that looks like for me is having my own meditation time having my own writing, having my own walk in nature, you know, physical body care. Yeah. This is when my, my being is drained. That’s when everything stays. Yeah. So what happens is, in this expression in your heart, you know, as you are able to hold more or be with people more, there’s more people that are ready to be with. So it’s always a rechecking of self care. And that’s actually a big one of one of our practice. essence with others is, and when the in between retreat is really supporting people with their self care, so that as they move that that’s what happens, they begin to strengthen in their heart and their inner being, and, and other energies don’t stick on them. Or they feel they can move with them and use it as an opening, instead of something to shut them down. That’s actually what happens with the people we work with, they learn to be strong in it.

Rick Archer: Yeah, you want to ask that bill, before I ask anything?

Bill Clum: Well, I really believe that the core of us, or the background of us His presence and joy, happiness comes and go. So in the place of when the emotional body starts healing, joy becomes a strength, the presence becomes a strength and in presence, of course, there’s love. And so that’s the emotional backdrop as it strengthens that when life comes at us, it could be blissful, and it may not be so blissful. But it doesn’t really matter which one comes in, because you have that groundedness in that core of you and your being of joy. So that’s the emotional body that we speak of that builds into that strength, when life comes at you, you have the ability to come out of the valleys. Yeah, you can, you know, and relate it to other teachers, we honor all teachers, we know that no matter who teaches what, there’s been an opening for someone somewhere in this collective effort on on, on all our parts. Yeah. And so the emotional body, no matter who you are, has to be looked at. Yeah, and, and that’s the place in I’ve heard this quoted, I, you know, that people will look anywhere except for the heart. Because it’s so uncomfortable. We’ve been in the mental body for a long time. So that transition from here to here, is a long journey. And so we’re just discovering the hearts.

Rick Archer: You both mentioned the word strength a lot, and what in what you just said, and, you know, that’s what comes to my mind when I listened to you and, you know, read some of your blog posts and stuff is, and to use another vulnerability metaphor, it’s like, you know, if you plant a sapling, you usually have to put in stakes and ropes to support it, because it’s not strong enough to hold up against the wind or whatever. And eventually, you know, get strong enough, and you can remove those. So what. And, and, as I understand it, and have experiences in my own life, there’s a deep reservoir of strength at the core of our being. And if we can take recourse to that, then it strengthens mind, body, everything. Just the way I know nutrients would strengthen the tree if the if it was planted in fertile ground. So what methods do you use to enable people to have access to that inner strength so that they can become more self sufficient, even possibly, to the point of not needing your services anymore? Because they they’re a tree that doesn’t need the stakes any longer?

Bill Clum: Well, that’s the purpose actually is, is not so much to create more students, but to teach people how to master their own emotional body. So they can go out into the world and begin to get from that place. And so where it comes from from us is the willingness to surrender. And we have one saying, How Deep Is Your Yes?

Rick Archer: Sounds like a big, big song. Yeah.

Bill Clum: Yeah. So and in the depth of our Yes, to be willing to do this, you know, we’ve went through powerful thresholds that have brought us to the other side of the emotional body, the very thing that I resisted, actually was my opening. As I followed it, it opened me into this. So at the vibration that we live at, we demonstrate it, we love it. And people see that they see the light, we walk into a room, and sometimes people just start crying. They feel safe, they feel the love, they feel whatever they’re feeling in a moment, I can’t explain exactly what they’re feeling. But we see the terrorists right away. They’re so ready for their hearts open, you know, mankind has waited for a long time for love to come to the planet. That that love is going to come through us.

Rick Archer: Also, though, holding the collective boss, yeah,

Patricia & Bill Clum: yes.

Patricia Clum: Right. Yeah. And, and you know, it, what you were saying is accurate. They’ll come, they’ll get stronger. They’ll learn the practices. They’ll go through thresholds, and then they go into the world. And what’s beautiful, is they’ll come back. You know, they’ll go for 1234 years and they’ll come back. They always know they can come back and they can rest with us for a weekend. So it’s it that when they come back it’s not from moving and away from pain or how to, you know, have cope with pain, it’s more of just to rest. Yeah, it’s like coming back home just for a weekend, you know, the door’s always open. So the practices that we offer are very clear, very simple, not new to us. But what we found is that when you can add them with whatever is calling you what other other practices you do, it helps ground and solidify what’s moving in you. So it’s moving the body, it’s walking, or somebody if someone was put on music and move the body. So when you’re feeling an energy or an emotion, move with that, move with it, move with it, move with it. Because one thing is people can be quite good at meditation. Yet, if a emotion is moving, it’s hard. You know, it’s challenging to meditate. So we say move first. body first, whether that’s walking, whether that’s dancing, whatever it is for you. And meditation, drinking water, you know, journaling, writing, and in your journaling, or writing, it’s the it’s an inquiry, and it becomes sort of your record book with your own opening. You know, show me show me what I can’t see, you’re asking your inner being, all of that. So those are the practices.

Rick Archer: Is there a flip side in terms of I know that there’s, you know, there’s the term spiritual bypassing, and sometimes spiritual seekers are guilty of that, and they, they ignore stuff or repress stuff, or, Oh, I don’t want to put my attention there, that kind of thing. And they can get very sort of skittish or gun shy about life, because they’re always trying to avoid anything uncomfortable at all. But um, is there a sort of a flip side to that, where one can indulge too much in putting one’s attention on all sorts of inner muck? You know, and, and in a way, Exaggerator exacerbate it? And if that is true, how does one find the balance point between dwelling on this stuff up maybe obsessively, almost? Or, you know, pushing it away and trying to ignore it?

Patricia Clum: That’s a really good question. So, you know, we’re the emotional body we’re speaking of is the unintegrated body. So it’s the pain body that’s out in the world. And then what happens is the emotional body matures, and you feel emotion. So it takes a little bit of time for that to unstick itself. So people will be aware that they’re recycling the that pain, you know, getting into the muck too much. And then so we’re then we walk with them, show them, process with them, so that they can realize that they don’t need to spend their time there, that they can bring their selves out into new awareness, you know, dip in a little bit more, it’s never a recommended to try to do all at once, you know, layer by layer. Yeah, because that’s what helps us build our strength. So we have, you know, we have had clients that are very enthusiastic, you know? Yeah, so it’s about allowing them to pull back a little bit, showing them from the observer aspect. Okay, what is moving and remembering what already has moved in their life. Because a lot of times when we’re, we stay in that sort of yuck has to set then we’re also not being aware of how much we have progressed in life. We’re not really having the full image or perspective about what’s actually happening. So that’s how we support them coming into that perspective. So they can almost do like a record keeping. Go, Oh, okay. Okay, great. Okay, this still hurts a bit. But I’ve also had this happen, which is different now.

Bill Clum: So, go ahead. I think a big piece of this is that how we view ourselves and so

Rick Archer: you to account people in general,

Bill Clum: just ppmv Okay, write yourself in and as to of course, you know, in the place of feeling that we’re a victim here to this planet. And so the victim actually is is a light being beginning to heal. So moving and healing the emotional body in the form of the victim. We, you know, the victim views the world is God or spirit doing something to them, and are yet not able to recognize that it’s the opportunity It’s the opportunity to move from reaction in life into responding in life, seeing the world is your oyster, because you’ve moved past that. So it’s healing beyond the victim. Because this is the planet of awakening, this is the attitude adjustment planet. You know, and so we’re here together to really work our way collectively, consciously, to work our way through these thresholds.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I like that. I definitely think and, you know, most people like ourselves, people who are interested in this kind of thing, are familiar and comfortable with the notion that, you know, Earth is a learning place, and that we’re here to evolve and to grow into, you know, that the experiences that we encountered in the big picture, can design to facilitate our growth and evolution, even though they might seem unpleasant at times. You know, yeah. And you can take extreme examples of that. And it’s a little hard to accept the point. But, you know, if you, if you really zoom out and think of the whole universe is big evolution machine, then ultimately everything is is conducive, in one way or another to, you know, evolution of consciousness. That’s the way I see it.

Bill Clum: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. I mean, that’s, that’s the depth that we’re being called to in our emotional body is to allow ourselves to move through these thresholds, for example, pain, grief, fear, are some of the biggest things that humanity runs from. And yet, those are the great thresholds that we can move through when we’re willing to face them head on emotionally, is where the heart comes. And we really start discovering the strength of our own hearts. We can do this, we can move past that. And it’s the undoing of the suffering and pain that we live in, that we think is just how it is. Yeah. And so, you know, beginning to move to the other side of what would that be like, to live beyond the pain beyond the fear and beyond the grief? And even the grief? You know, for many years, I thought, God, this is so awful, because we’ve all experienced grief somehow. And the planet, you know, will experience at one time or another, and I was meditating on that. And the grief kept increasing and increasing. And I’m saying, Well, I can’t take any more of this. But I my Yes, is so strong, I’m going to stay with it. Even if it takes my life, I’m going to stay with this. Yes. And there wasn’t, there was an explosion, I call that perturbation where the energy of Spirit pushes in so hard. There’s, there’s like into an atom and it explodes and it expands. And in that place of expansion, it’s irreversible. We’ll never be back at that place, again, because we’ve moved through the energy of that. So that is the expansion. And it’s even unrecognizable at times, but it is a conscious shift. That is irreversible when you move to the other side. Is fear still there? Yes. As you said earlier, you know, there’s, there’s a good fear, there’s a healthy anger. There’s a grief that’s healthy. And what I discovered in the feeling of that grief, was actually the depth of love. I’ve held in my heart.

Rick Archer: Is that what you were alluding to earlier, when you said that your greatest challenge resulted in your biggest opening or something? Yes, yeah. And was that grief? Like, specific? Or was it sort of a more amorphous grief that you weren’t attaching to anything in particular, but it was just kind of this existential malaise that you were kind of like feeling?

Bill Clum: Yes, it was just grief, there was nothing I could attach it to because I really scan through to say, spirit, what is this moving my body this that we’re just moving grave, so open to it. And in that opening to it, it became so intense, I said, Well, I, I can’t take anymore. And then that explosion occurred and there was that opening, I said, Oh my god, this is what it’s like to follow. The feelings of all of this, it moves us into the opening of now where there’s more light, there’s more movement, and the vibration of wherever we move in life, people feel us, we will stand in Starbucks. And within 10 minutes, it begins to quiet. Somebody always will come to us and talk to us or something. It’s just we carry that in life. It doesn’t even need to be in words. People just feel your presence. Yeah. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Did you want to add anything there? Patricia?

Patricia Clum: No, I’m enjoying this. Okay, good.

Rick Archer: It’s been my understanding. See what you guys think about this. The mechanics of the way emotions and pent up stuff work is that there is a physiological correlate if when we’re talking about grief and anger and all kinds of trauma and hurt and things in the world, you know, protectiveness of the heart and all these things we’ve been discussing. We’re not just talking psychologically or emotionally, there’s a physiological correlate to these there, perhaps even could be understood if the physiologist knew what to look for in terms of on a neurological level or something. But we ordinarily don’t feel it that way. Well, maybe we do. I mean, feel free to interrupt me. I mean, there’s usually probably a physical sensation associated with these emotions. And would you agree that the most efficient way of resolving this stuff has something to do with tuning into that physiological basis of it, that physiological sensation, rather than sort of abstracting it into just mental or emotional states, but getting right down to the physiology?

Patricia Clum: Absolutely. So what we witness is that the motion is stored in the body, right? Different places in the body,

Rick Archer: probably subtle body as well as gross body. Absolutely.

Patricia Clum: And energetic, all of them, you know, at play, Mind Body, same same. So as we’re working with energy, and as it’s moving, people will feel it, you know, tingling of the head, right? The sore and the side that we put attention on, breathe with. And as the anger dissolves the the side, you know, the cramp is gone, the heart opens. Yeah, it’s all connected. Every aspect of self is connected when the heart begins to open and heal. All those are revealed in the body, for sure. Yeah,

Rick Archer: I’ve been on long meditation courses, where all kinds of strange things were happening. But like, I went through this phase, where there was this really serious pain in my shoulder, and I hadn’t injured anything. And it just went on and on. And finally, it just dissolved. And then that felt like there was this opening or something that you know, once you got it, yeah. And who knows how long it had been buried there, what it really was from or anything?

Patricia Clum: Yeah, absolutely. And that’s how it happens. You know, is it after a while, first, you know, we may have things in life that seem to bring this pain, right. So all of that, but as we clear in as we clear it, as we clear, like you said, it’s like, okay, I feel that Yeah, at birth, I don’t even know what it’s from, there’s no words really attached to it don’t need to know, don’t need to know, there’s no need to know or even want, you know, it’s like the breath, breath, attention, the movement. That’s why I mentioned at the very beginning, some of the work that we do with people is, you know, can’t really put into words, but we’ll do our best with your questions. For sure.

Rick Archer: Yeah. One metaphor that comes to mind when I think about this kind of thing about dissolving trauma and all is like, if you had a handful of mud, and you want it to dissolve it, somehow you want to dissolve it. So if you just had a cup of water, and you threw the mud in the cup, it would dissolve very well. And the more the water would be really muddy. But if you had like a bucket or a swimming pool or an ocean, the larger the quantity of water, the more easily the mud would be dissolved and just disappear. So that sort of relates back to what we’re saying, I think about strength, if if somehow that inner strength can be enlivened to whatever extent it can, then something which could be huge deal to dissolve if if our consciousness is just cop, like, Could just be a little blip on the radar that’s coming on if our consciousness is more oceanic.

Patricia Clum: Absolutely, absolutely. And so, for myself, my experience of consciousness is love. You know, that’s our experience of not the love in a storybook, or even in relation, but the conditional just the fabric of love. So what we notice and people and what the feedback is, that is this is clearing for them. They’ll just notice that they’ll say walk out of a bank and what used to get them irritated. They actually feel the grace, you know, and they actually get into great connected conversation with someone at the bank, and they walk out and they go, Wow, five months ago, you know, that would have really got me upset, you know, and that’s how the sort of begins to demonstrate their inner work. It’s so subtleties of influence where they don’t feel like Bill mentioned earlier in reaction to or they feel like they’re just they’re in their present. They’re holding space for whatever is happening. And they fall into deep connection with another. You know, and then something moves from that. So it’s quite beautiful.

Rick Archer: Do I say anything to that? Bill?

Bill Clum: No, it just has to come from us. It has to come from within us. Yeah. And, and, you know, people see our work. And, you know, everybody has an experience, whoever is set with his head has had some sort of transformative experience. And we can’t make it happen. We can’t make this happen we can only open to. And I really believe that the Yes, from my heart, that was a hard one for me to really learn because I wanted to make it happen. I mean, I spent a lot hundreds of 1000s of dollars chasing this thing, trying to be happy, only, only to come back to the same point of not knowing what to do with this emotional body. And I think the demonstration is here now for us to really learn what to do with this. And how it’s really the opportunity to really open to everything that we’ve come here to become, and to be, and we can, it’s almost like heaven on earth beginning to open from within us.

Rick Archer: That’s a really good point that that’s kind of like tunes right into something I was about to ask that was bouncing off of Patricia statement about standing in line at the bank. I mean, do with all you’ve been through and all the work you’ve done on yourself. Do you sort of sometimes feel like you’re living in heaven on earth, you’re you’re living in this blissful state, and in mundane circumstances, like bank lines, and, you know, supermarkets and stuff. The Bliss just kind of spills over and engulfs everyone you perceive. And you just get on it. Just feel this joy and love for people in ordinary circumstances.

Patricia Clum: Yes, yeah. And I, and I’ll feel vulnerable. And I’ll feel someone, you know, someone will bring me for tears to tears, just serving coffee, you know, all feel raw sometimes. Where you know, all of that.

Bill Clum: Well, here’s a good example, where you just want to make sure I didn’t interrupt you. I was in Walmart, I don’t go there very often. It just seems like a dreadful place for me to go to. Home Depot is much more fun or Costco. But anyway, I was standing in line I had I needed an ice cooler, it was really reasonable there and I standing in line, there was this lady with a cart, she had four kids hanging off, and they were just really being awful. And she’s trying to get through the line. And I’m standing in line. And here’s people just glaring at him. People just so upset with these kids in this lady. And I was starting to feel the same thing. And then I heard spirit says, Bill, this is not who you are, right? Do something about this. Don’t Don’t stand here and do nothing. So I walked up to the lady and says, Hi, wow, you’ve got your hands full here today with all these kids. And I started talking to the kids and just touching them. I said, Is there anything I can help you with? Yeah. Oh, no, just thank you for being so patient. This was really hard. I says, No, I get that. Is there anything I can do? She says you’ve done enough already. And when I turn around and looked at everybody, I noticed that there was a whole attitude shift in the lines when I was willing just to be in my art, and to go there. So it’s kind of like that. That’s just one example that really stands out for me.

Rick Archer: Yeah, that’s really nice. I was getting, I was getting off a plane recently, and the plane had landed. And it was taking forever to get people for people to get off and, and it was hot. And it was everybody’s tired. It was late at night, the plane had been delayed. There was some poor little girl who was who was just screaming, I have to potty. I have to. And it’s like some people were feeling impatient. But both most of the people were, were sort of let you know, get out of the way, let her get off. There was a sort of, it’s almost like when there’s a natural disaster like a big snowstorm, it brings out the best in people and everybody starts talking to neighbors that they’ve never talked to before, you know, brings out their humanity. Yeah. And the way I told you that story, but it does bring out a point that the, it’s sweet, and there’s this, that you see that and when there’s big snowstorms and catastrophes or, you know, an earthquake or something and everybody, it somehow evokes the humanity and people and whereas mundane circumstances tend to numb it or, you know, suppress it, but people rise to the occasion and, and, you know, it brings out their better nature.

Patricia Clum: Yeah, absolutely. Yeah, there’s thing I wanted to talk into speak into was that the beauty about how, like the strength of my own heart and my experience, how it ripples into my family. You know, in my I don’t speak to my family as I’m speaking to you, you know, or bill they have their life and I’m the youngest of five very busy, professional people. And yet when I’m with my mother, and I’m with my brother and sister, there’s this this beautiful space, where as we have, like, moved around and become more of me is what I call it, you know, when my heart opens that to just stay in the space with them, and what comes back is they’ll begin to use the language that I haven’t even spoken to them about, you know, like, they begin to say, my heart feels or, you know, well, I’m just noticing I’m feeling vulnerable today. So it’s kind of beautiful, that sweetness about what we’re speaking of earlier about how you carry it without words how it is you and induced your life.

Rick Archer: Yeah, that there’s a saying in India that when the mangoes are ripe, the branches bow down. So it’s easy for people to pick the band goes, and it speaks to humility. And, and it almost sounds like not to humble to speak of, you know, a tuning to the level of consciousness of the people you’re interacting with, who kind of presumes that you’re in a higher one. But what’s really meant by that example is just that, you know, someone who is really humbled doesn’t think of themselves as higher others as lower anything, there’s, there’s just a natural ability to attune to the circumstances. And there’s the sort of the range or capacity to attune to circumstances of a wide variety of types, I think, whereas, you know, without that range, two people tend to be locked into this level, and others are locked into that level. And then we have all this strife and conflict and disagreement, because we, you know, we just can’t there’s no Venn Diagram of overlap between between our world and the other world.

Patricia Clum: Yeah, and I for myself, in my opinion, in my path, I want, I, I, if it wasn’t happening in my heart, it wasn’t happening. So I wanted it to my life. As far as I know, for sure, I have this one physical being here. And this time to enjoy it. However, my time is, however long to my time, minutes. So for me, what you just said, Was, Is my absolutely deepest core value, I have to be able to be with everyone in my life. Not that we won’t have our ups and downs like any relating, but to be with people in my life to meet people where they’re at who they are, you know, to, that’s what excites me.

Bill Clum: Yeah, I really, I really felt that when you talked about the mangoes or whatever planting fruit, that was how the trees, humility is such an important piece. And it’s a rare commodity on the planet, true humility. And I feel that, collectively, we could all use more of that. And I and I believe that thresholds of I talked to, you know, the fear, the anger, the grief, the victim, when we’ve had the willingness to move through this and just open to that we move to the other side of that, just a plethora of energy opens consciously. And it has a ripple effect where one person willing to do the work and say, Yes, I do it for self first. Because you know, the love has to come from within me to another. And so when we do it for self, first, we hold the space for maybe 100,000 people.

Rick Archer: I’m listening, just by

Bill Clum: our willingness to say yes, to the opportunity that’s right in front of us. And so what we one of the things we say is learn to get comfortable with the uncomfortable. Because when we sit still like in the weekend, you know, this energy, this subconscious mind start slowing down and all these feelings that people haven’t taken the time to feel. Now we’re coming up and saying, God, I don’t want to feel this. And yet actually, the pain actually is the medicine. Pain is the medicine to move beyond the suffering. So this is the medicine to bring us to the place of wholeness, and from the movement of wholeness, wholeness, and to the place of devotion and holiness.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I guess you could say pain is the sort of the, the indicator of it draws our attention, right? It lets us know that there’s something that needs to be attended to. I mean, just to take a simple example, if you put your hand on the stove, you feel pain, and it’s a good thing to do because you need to take your hand off. But then it still hurts even after you’ve taken your hand off. So why is that? Because your hands not until well. There’s an injury now that needs to be healed and so the tension on the injury is going to be more healing than ignoring it. Yeah, that’s just a physical example. But obviously you’re talking about same same principle probably applies on the emotional.

Bill Clum: Yeah. So we begin to take a look at that which we’ve been ignoring. Yeah,

Patricia Clum: or not even aware of, like you said, like your shoulder, sometimes we’re not even aware of what emotion is we mentioned earlier in consciousness, we’ve spent a lot of time in the mental body. So for a while, often there, in the beginning, there’s like a fine out. Even if we’ve been dedicated, spiritually, you know, and we just haven’t no one, it hasn’t come to an awareness, there’s this aspect that is still evolving in us. There’s this aspect that is has opportunity to be embraced, and included in all of this.

Rick Archer: Have you ever given much thought to or had experiential glimpses of the higher reaches of emotional? Or, yeah, emotional development, I’m thinking in terms of like, you know, you hear stories of some of the great saints mirrored by or, or others who were just had these incredible hearts and are just like, just oceans of love and compassion armas, an example is sitting on a shelf behind me. It’s kind of interesting to contemplate the range of possibilities, you know, I mean, what you’re talking about, I don’t think it’s just, it’s not necessarily just a lifetime of dealing with, you know, pains and traumas. And it’s just gonna be this sort of, you know, slog that we have to do all of our lives working through that kind of stuff. There’s really a gold a rainbow at the end of the path. Yeah, and not just at the end, I mean, it gets brighter and brighter as we go along.

Patricia Clum: Absolutely, it’s really good to mention this wreck. Because as we’re processing as we’re healing, as we’re moving, it’s really remember everyone to remember that we are in movement of evolution, and we are rot or black of a better word in this moment, but rising to an expression of open mind, divine mind, open heart, where we can be in the realms, infinite realms, where compassion can move through every vein that’s connected to consciousness, where a mercy comes in, and quantifies within your physical being. So you can offer that depth of healing, and that depth for others. And that depth of that fortitude of consciousness. So we do move into a maturity, we just call it emotional maturity, where we can be in that and hold that space. And that each and every heart is so different, as unique as our thumbprint. Each and every heart. So, so we’re all have these wells that are available and just waiting for us, whatever that well is full of, is with you already. And so as you move through those layers of protection, or processing all that stuff, you begin to tap into that, well, that’s already available in in you, of consciousness.

Bill Clum: So getting Yeah, just getting back to that place where, you know, when in my meditation, I was feeling the grief, not related to anything, just feeling grief, just maybe even global grief, you know, identifying with all of us, and in the movement when that explosion occurred. And I realized that was the depth of love that I carry within me, I was shocked. I had no idea that kind of depth was in me it was a revealing of who I am. Whereas a man I’ve been really uncomfortable. I didn’t want people to think of me as too loving. Because I because I was afraid I wouldn’t be a man or something if I I didn’t have acceptance about love, right. And so that brought in a deep acceptance to know this is who I am. And why do I feel powerful from this place? It’s something I’ve never experienced I didn’t even think was possible in this lifetime. And so what do I get from this what I really feel that I’m not so much getting what I’m receiving is freedom. Freedom and fulfillment is what I feel the end result is I don’t even know if there is an end it’s probably not even appropriate. Use the word end but on my journey, this is what’s unfolding in me. This is what’s moving color is different. Taste is different. How I view people is different how I view the world is different. Everything shifts.

Rick Archer: Yeah, so when you had that big awakening, it’s kind of sounds like it was a watershed moment for you and things were never the same. After that.

Bill Clum: We Yes, that’s true. And this, that’s just one of the thresholds, the deepest threshold, I believe the cross in our humanity is the belief in separation, that we are separate from God. And that one was a really long journey for me in the loneliness of that, because that’s the end result of work. The mind, the mental body could only take me to the place of the loneliness. And then in the heart was the only place when I open to that saying, okay, I get that. And when I felt that, for a long time, it was so painful, it opened me into the place of where I knew that I was no longer separate.

Rick Archer: That’s nice. There’s a line in the there’s a line in the Upanishads, which goes, certainly all fear is born of duality. And I think that’s kind of what you’re pointing out here. It’s there’s, obviously there would be a sort of a root fear if we’re separated for dual if we’re if we’re separated from God, because we’re always vulnerable. You know, I mean, if, if there’s me and other, there’s always the chance that other can hurt me or something. Yeah, you know, but if it’s only unified, then what can hurt what? Yeah, yeah.

Rick Archer: I was gonna say, pipe up if you have anything. Oh, here comes a question. Amanda, from Tampa, Florida. asks, What do you think about when past trauma becomes physical pain affecting the nervous system and the brain, for example, arthritic disease, fibromyalgia, anxiety and depression, the triggers are super raw and vulnerable, even in it. I feel like I’m supposed to go through it, not suppress it, and be in a safe self control space for healing. Thank you.

Patricia Clum: Yeah. So we always recommend when someone’s that we call it on the edge that Amanda’s on with her, her pain and our awareness that she’s been invited to go through it to get this support, you know, to get the support someone to hold space for her, someone that is able to help move her through the process of releasing, you know, we’re on this incredible planet together. So there’s quite a beautiful expression, when we come together. In that movement, the threshold Amanda’s going through, absolutely, there’s a there’s a rebirth wanting to happen in her a complete movement in her whole body, physical, spiritual, energetic, everything that’s moving in her now. Yeah.

Bill Clum: Yeah. Yeah. And as you said earlier, you know, the pain gets our attention. So in the place of the pain, it’s a, it’s a fearful place to be, it can be at times, because we don’t know what to do with it. In in the willingness to feel it. And to allow it to work its way out in you and to be with that emotional body. What’s underneath the pain? So that’s, that’s the place to look is what’s beneath the pain that’s wanting to move the emotion? Yeah, so the emotional body is wanting to move.

Rick Archer: Yeah, like you were saying before, Patricia, you know, there’s various things you can do to help yourself, exercise, walking, you know, maybe yoga, diet, all kinds of things. So it’s, it’s kind of like, you know, you pull a table by any one leg and the rest of the legs come along. But maybe if you can pull several legs at once the table is gonna move even more easily. So. So I imagine somebody like Amanda has, you know, already looked into a lot of things that might be helpful, but it’s just good to keep in mind, you know, we don’t have to sort of just use one tool, there can be a variety of things that can be yes, yeah,

Patricia Clum: absolutely. And for Amanda, I just want to say you may want to journal about what emotion is there sit with, in kind of a menace, meditation state, and do the inquiry and see, like Bill said, If there’s emotion under the pain, it’s almost like you’re diving in the pool, and just see what emotion may be stirring there. And then there’s a release that she can move with, if it happens for her when it happens. So she doesn’t have to try to contain it.

Rick Archer: Good. I want to make a wrap up point about that point I was making earlier about the sort of the higher reaches of emotional development in terms of devotion and so on. And there’s like a thing, you know, in spiritual circles that some people say, Oh, well, don’t be seeking some glorious future attainment, you know, because you’ll be just be forever chasing the dangling carrot, you know, realize that you’ve sort of got it right here. But on the other hand, there are these examples of, you know, sort of spiritual luminaries who apparently attained Something quite marvelous. And I think he can kind of balance both. It’s it’s, you know, obviously every day is life, and we don’t pass over the present for some glorious future. But it’s good to have a vision of possibilities also, and to realize that, you know, there’s a great range of potential unfoldment, which can be quite, quite wonderful. As we, as we undergo it.

Patricia Clum: And it’s available for anyone. Exactly. You know, it’s not available for a selected few, right? Like these people, you know, that are the different on Earth avatars, people that hold love, you know, they that that is their calling to offer, who they are to the world, and that there’s a choline in each of our hearts. So it’s available for everyone. And what it Bill said earlier to, to maybe add a language to support people in this is something we open to Yeah. So instead of reaching to open to it, because everything in your life happening right now, in the moment, whatever it looks like, is supporting that calling in your heart is supporting that opening, you’re actually in an opening. You may just not recognize it as that.

Rick Archer: Yeah, that’s great.

Bill Clum: Yeah, what we may be looking for seeking is actually already happening in us, right at this moment. Yeah. Like, for instance, people say, Well, I don’t believe we’ll believe is happening anywhere irregardless of what I think or what my opinion is, or how I think it should be. It’s happening anyway, creation is continually in movements.

Rick Archer: Yeah. If someone were to say to me, I don’t I don’t believe I would say we don’t need to just experience you know, I mean, this is a scientific process. And if you, you know, if you don’t believe that, you know, an apple tastes sweet or something, then bite the apple and you’ll that will confirm or refute whatever attitude you have about it. So we’re talking about an experiential thing here, not just a belief or an attitude.

Patricia Clum: Yeah. And I wanted to mention, because a lot comes with belief, the other word that comes in often is trust. Well, in getting to know self, the depths of who you are, trust is built from there. Once we can trust our own being with our own heart and our own being, trust begins to open for us. Yeah. So our mind would like to see affirmation or see proof that there is trust outside of us how trust is built this from the core of our being, we build trust into life, each and every person.

Rick Archer: And would you say, related to?

Rick Archer: Me they don’t trust you. And but after they’ve been through

Rick Archer: where the previous time because they’ve already built some experiential foundation.

Patricia Clum: Absolutely. And you know, we’ve had a world that’s operating pretty at a pretty primitive states still, yeah, we have many beautiful things happening simultaneously. There’s a lot of primitive. Yeah. state of relating,

Rick Archer: very contrasting world.

Patricia Clum: Yeah. So when we meet, and we’re talking about heart space, and we’re relearning the language inside of us, it takes time to have that, that sort of that availability, right, that trust, so to speak, like you just explained. So what we present is that we’re building a bridge. So they’re on one side, we’re on the other side, and we’re building a plank at a time. Yeah. And whether it’s the weekend or later down the road, we meet in the middle with them when they meet themselves.

Rick Archer: Yeah, like you were saying earlier, you don’t do this all in one day. There’s layer after layer after layer after layer. And, you know, I think each I mean, there are people who like to say things like, Oh, you’re already enlightened, just realize that you’re done. But I don’t think that’s realistic. I don’t think they know what they’re talking about. There is this kind of this progressive unfoldment that takes place and, and each new layer is a new layer of trust and experience, you know, genuine experience,

Patricia Clum: and getting to know self. I mean, what are we here for? Yeah, we’re here in this physical body, like in this being in this Patricia, I want to get to know all of this universe inside of me. You know, I’m a tall woman, I’m six foot tall. So there’s a lot for me to get to know and it’s always in a constant state of shifting movement change, dissolving, growing, you know, aspects coming forward, movement healing. So that limitation for everyone.

Bill Clum: If there was a shortcut to this, I would have found it. Let me tell, I looked and looked and looked at so many different maybe 30 years of chasing the tail, so to speak, only to come to the place of realizing that it was always here. It was always here. I just didn’t know how to access it.

Rick Archer: Yeah, yeah, that’s a good point. I mean, what you’re saying a minute ago about reminded me of just the point that people like Ramana Maharshi, or Jesus Christ, or anybody else who’s some, you know, great, enlightened, famous, dude. They don’t, they don’t really have. We’re just as much rooted in the divine as they are. And it permeated by it, and so on. It’s just a matter of maybe they’ve become a little bit more aware of the connection. But we all that’s what you were saying that we all have the capacity or the potential to become aware of that connection experientially, again, not just in but in belief. But we all have, if we have a human nervous system, we already have what it takes to, you know, become an embodiment of divine consciousness. It’s not like, like, you’re just saying it’s not the province of a select few.

Patricia Clum: Yes. Yeah, absolutely. And it will always be our choice, like every day, that’s a expression of how deeply sure yes, yeah, you know, that helps us remind us, oh, we’re not to get kind of involved in the world. And it’s, the world is quite in a hurry pacing right now. But that, yes, helps us bring it back to center ago. Right? How deep is this moment? That yes, I mean,

Rick Archer: when you think about the world, and see what’s going on, and from what, from your knowledge and experience doing what you do, considering everything you’ve gone through and your own development, do you sort of see trends and and, you know, symptoms of deeper issues, for instance, it’s a the opioid epidemic is a big deal these days. And NBC News has been doing a series on it recently, and how, you know, it kills more people than any other. Cause. Now, I think, at least in a certain age group, more than car accidents are, you know, just about anything else. So what, and that obviously, is, is a strange phenomenon. People were trying to numb out, they’re trying to, they’re just trying to shut down. And obviously, it doesn’t work too well. So, I mean, do you have any kind of sense of societal trends, both current and future, like where we might be going? And I don’t know, do you get insights like that?

Patricia Clum: Yeah, I often do. So here’s the thing we’ve had, we’re just creatures of contraction. So we’ve had to come in. So in this human form, so we are far away from who we are in our inner being, to realize that we’ve actually been far away from it. So now we’re moving into this availability, just like having the conversation you and I right in this moment, even though we’re on this computer, and you’re 1000s of miles away, I feel we’re on in the living room, we’re speaking we’re connecting, we’re following this way, what’s working with us and all the viewers that are listening or will listen. So I that it’s been the lack of connection, the lack of connection, and the knowing what to do with the pain someone’s feeling. And the beans, you know, we are fortunate to work with all ages, younger people. And they’re coming in so bright, with so much consciousness into a world that still wants to put them in a box. The old systems aren’t working, we witness that everywhere now in the world openly. And so those old systems are being channeled challenged. And yet new systems are awakening from that. We were just in an event yesterday, where a group of young families 10 of them, 12 of them got together and bought property, and they are building living together. You know, they’ve got the eco system, they’ve got their food, they do it all by council. They do it all they’ve agreed that they all come together and one that the agreement is that they will always do transformational work. They’ll always bring in mentors, they’ll always keep working on themselves. They’ll always come into the agreement. Everyone’s raising the children, all them different have talents that they offer, you know, and then from that a young man is working with a nonprofit where he goes and work works with people and they do clusters. So they’ve they’ve done the research that 12 people together is in a gathering is when you can really hear and connect with each other. So building clusters and communities and acuity, something like 144, I forget the numbers, so don’t quote me on that. But 144 is the max that a human being can be in before they feel disconnected. Interesting, and they’re built in home,

Rick Archer: and 12 is the square root of 144. So it’s kind of using that number works that way.

Bill Clum: And actually, people come to know each other. Yeah. And it becomes a family of where they’re so accountable to everything. And, you know, they’ve really set up the groundwork where, you know, because together, we’re more so like that these people, they talked about it for years about getting a piece of property, the property they discovered was a million dollars, it had four homes on it. So between five of them, they came up with a down payment, like $13,000 Each, whatever the figure was, they put it down on the property, they created a corporation, so they all pay rent to the corporation. And now they’re solarizing. There, they’ve just found a way to make it because the average home in San Diego is like 500,000, yeah, basic home. So five them, that would have been 2.5 million. So for $13,000. They, they live on a 10 acre piece of property.

Patricia Clum: And they welcome diversity. So they’re from all backgrounds, they have all their different talents, the artists, firefighter, you know, from all different walks of life, and in this council, they come together, so they have committed to the connection, they’ve committed, that they’re going to see it through, you know, when the when the unconscious comes up, they have systems in place to support the healing of that, because, well, because we’re human beings.

Bill Clum: It was about it’s about connection.

Rick Archer: Yeah. I mean, my main takeaway from this is something you said, which is that as the old systems break down, and are proof, totally inadequate, and, you know, it’s going to result in the in the service, but under the radar emergence of, of much more creative and innovative and effective ways of doing things, which, you know, will probably take a long time before that makes the news, but this, this stuff is just going to crop up quite spontaneously out of the out of the sort of the vacuum that the old systems are creating.

Patricia Clum: Yeah, I mean, if you look at our world, right? How in most cities, how seniors are treated, how parenting is treated, there’s separation there. From reality, you know, people are alone that were could be connected more together. So this is what’s growing more is that opening that desire, that willingness to connect to deeper levels with self and others in life?

Rick Archer: Yeah, that’s great. So that’s a quote here. Feel free to bring up anything for your side that I’m not thinking to ask. But I have some notes from reading your blog posts. And who is Alex Reyes, he had some things on your blog. So somebody that works with you or something? Yeah, yeah. Okay. So he had some interesting points. And maybe Oh, go ahead.

Patricia Clum: Oh, he’s so he helps us. So he takes our writing. Yeah. And implements it. puts it on the website? Yeah.

Rick Archer: Good. Here’s here’s something from Rumi that kind of summarizes what you’ve been saying. He said, your task, and this is from something you wrote, your task is not to seek for love, but merely to seek and find all the barriers within yourself that you have built against it.

Patricia Clum: Yeah, yeah. Yeah.

Rick Archer: I mean, that’s a good point, right there in relationships, and, you know, finding love in life are very important to people and, you know, doesn’t often work out for people and so on. But um, I guess what this does, is it, it redirects the search from an outer directed one to an inner directed one, you know, find what the barriers are removed and present yourself and in other words, seek within, and then well Seek ye first the kingdom of heaven within all else will be added unto the

Patricia Clum: yukata. Yeah, so remember, in the very beginning, we were talking about protector as well often relationships and we were talking about we’re creatures of contraction, so we feel into what doesn’t work first. Yeah, before we come into awareness that there might be a different way, you know, that there’s possible so with relationships A lot of relationships are still reaction ships. Yeah, you know, so they’re still so it’s one protector and the other protector in communication. So that aspect of self that hasn’t healed their their start they it starts to direct the relationship or reaction ship, you know. So what we find and what we offer is what you said is move into self first, let’s release some of those barriers. So you can truly be all of you in relationship into that deep connection.

Rick Archer: Yeah, marshy, Mahesh Yogi used to say that relationships are based on giving, and that if two people come together both wanting to take, then nobody gets anything, because both are trying to take nobody’s giving, you know, but if if two people come together sort of with the capacity to give, and you know, with the intention of giving, and with no concern for what they’re going to get, then both received because, you know, both giving

Patricia Clum: and receiving. And, yeah, the receiving is so pertinent and important. You know, it’s it’s the dance that giving receiving, both of those create more opening, create that that fluid, energy, that helps move us

Bill Clum: that’s the balance there has to be equal to giving and receiving in life. Some people are great givers, you know, even in the conscious world, and they become exhausted because they’re so busy given and they the very thing they’re giving, it’s the opportunity to give it to self. And that’s the receiving we have to be able to receive in order to give and vice versa.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Well, also, it’s like Patricia was saying earlier, she needs to have her downtime, or hiking or meditating stuff like that to recharge your batteries. You can’t just give and give and give without, you know, recharging your batteries.

Bill Clum: Yeah, yeah.

Rick Archer: So how long have you guys been together?

Patricia Clum: 13 years now?

Bill Clum: 12 years,

Patricia Clum: 12 years

Rick Archer: And presumably, you’ve been married before to other people. And this is done. And so just out of curiosity, how did you meet? And you know, what is your what are your day to day lives? Like as these? You know, you’re these teachers of having open hearts and everything. What is your experience, like with each other on a daily basis?

Patricia Clum: Well, I met Bill when I was with a friend in San Diego on vacation, because I’m from Canada. So I met Bill. And when I met him, I felt him. At that point in my life, I had decided that he would, I wasn’t going to be looking for a relationship. It was just if it came, because I was really having my strong path with God for me at that time. And so that was my number one. And when I met Bill, I recognize that in him, he also had that for himself. And one thing we have in common was his horses. Oh, that’s nice. So we went horseback riding and, and we just, you know, it started to unfold. I was still living in Canada, raising my children. He was still living here. And so back and forth. And through that, eventually, we began to offer our work what we offer now together. In the beginning, that wasn’t it wasn’t a planned effort, it kind of evolved as the work evolved. Yeah. Mm hmm.

Rick Archer: Do you ever have your tense moments and your you know, oh, yeah, then how do you deal with them when those arise?

Bill Clum: Well, you know, we’re human beings. So, you know, sometimes we’re on the road for quite a long time getting tired. And, and we’ve done several workshops, and, you know, we do sessions with people. And, you know, we’re just, there’s not that time in between sometimes to really go to that maintenance that we need. And I’ll, you know, a level of anger will come up and I’ll express it. And, and then I know that when I come up with that level of anger, she just looks at me, like, where did that come from? And I know when she’s looking at me, like, this has nothing to do with you. Me. Yeah. So go take a look at it. And so I will take the responsibility for whatever’s coming up in me and look at it. And then of course, I’ll come back to wherever we left off and we have this thing in our relationship we call reduce, I get to re approach her from a different place. Because I’ve taken a look and say, Oh, this is my anger what’s happening there. And then it’ll come to me what it is and and I’ll take a look at it and then I let it go and I come back to Patricia and I’ll say Hey baby, or a Patricia. I’m really sorry for that help. Can I make this up to you? You know, heart, I’m sorry, is not enough? Yeah. So I say what can I do to make this up to you, and so she’ll give me something to do to make it out. So that’s one of the ways we,

Patricia Clum: and for and on my side, when he’s, you know, has this anger he’s working through, I do the practices, just like I encourage people to I breathe like around, I meditate, you know, I, I walk, I stay open, I because one of my protectors is that I withdraw, you know, so I do everything to stay Express, to keep me pressing in the moment, no matter what is moving, what appears to be moving. And I know he’s got this, you know, he’s got this. And I know, so know what Bill is underneath the anchor for him. It’s a vulnerability and awareness, where there’s an awareness that it’s sort of embraced and vulnerability. So sometimes for him his ability as a man is, in his path, he still works through being to the space vulnerability is still tender at times.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Now, sometimes, you know, people talk about not repressing anything, not suppressing anything, you know, express your emotion, express your anger, express, whatever, you know, but how do you balance that with, let’s say, discernment, and discrimination, because you know, you can have the impulse, the anger, and you can just blurted out and create bad feelings for a few days. Or you can sort of say, Oh, I don’t really need to say that. And then five minutes later, the whole situation has changed, and everything’s fine. And, you know,

Patricia Clum: that’s so that’s a good question, because we actually support people steering through that. Yeah. So any moment that you’re hurting another, or yourself? You’re it’s yeah, it’s, it’s mood is taken off, it’s getting carried away in that muck we were talking about earlier in the conversation. Yeah. So any moment that you’re hurting another or hurting yourself, there’s something deeper going on, and that person in front of you is not responsible to bring you through, you’re responsible. So for Bill, so he’ll, I’ll all go for a walk, I may, for myself, I may go, okay, sweetheart, I’m going to go for a walk. Or he may say, You know what, I’m going to go to the gym, like, so he knows the way that has him work through it. And like I said, his thumb prints, everyone’s a bit different. So part of the balance for self is to find what supports you the deepest through each threshold. Yeah. And that’s, again, we get to practice that during the weekends. But really, that is the core of it is to find that for yourself in between the sessions in between the weekends, so that you get strong in it, you know, so you get to know yourself.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Back in the arena, say something, though. Yeah,

Bill Clum: you know, one of my protector has been anger. And so I might have been born that way. I don’t know. But it was my biggest learning is anger gave me momentary power in the moment when I didn’t want to deal or look at something. And yet, underneath that shield, you know, there was a level of sadness. I didn’t want to feel Yeah. And so in the place of what I finally started feeling the sadness, I was saying, God, am I ever going to come out of this? Do I really want to feel this? So I followed the track of the sadness. And it brought me to the place what most helps move the anger is opening to curiosity, see anger, there’s no room for curiosity. So I open to loving curiosity, to see is there another way to do this? So that’s the that’s the protection as the anger the opening for me, was being curious. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Back in the late 60s, I was in an encounter group for a while. And I hope everybody realizes that what you’re doing is a far cry from what that was, like. My favorite, but it was brutal. I mean, they’re, they’re just, you know, people ripping each other to shreds in the name of honesty and openness. And, you know, sometimes very vulnerable young people just being bullied by much grosser tougher, older people. And I don’t know, it was just very crude. But I’ve listened to several hours of what you do. And, you know, I just want to say that don’t get any sense of any anyone being taken advantage of, like what you just said about not harming anyone. I think that that sentiment is very much functioning in your, in your workshops, there’s a sense of just helping and healing and supporting not not any kind of confrontational, you know, thing that anybody’s gonna be confronted with, you know, have to deal with.

Patricia Clum: Yeah, you know, here’s how I feel. I feel that every The movement of consciousness right, so we’re in 2017. Yeah. So we’re not back at the 60s 70s 80s or 90s. Even Yeah. Because all those, everyone, so people are mentors in the past, people that came before us people that will be ahead of us, new consciousness is coming in all the time. So we don’t have to fall back on old ways. We don’t have to push in, right? Everything is here. If we are willing, if we feel that, yes, some are willing to allow it to be revealed, you know, everything is here for us.

Bill Clum: Even that what you heard on the hours of tapes, our work is evolved even beyond that, at this point, it’s a whole different thing. We feel consciously as we connect, and people come is actually a current conscious update of what is moving in consciousness. And we collectively create that when all of the hearts come together, there’s new consciousness that comes through that venue.

Rick Archer: That’s an interesting statement. Yeah, I find it interesting that you’re, well, I guess this is probably true of most everyone, but I don’t hear people articulate it that often that their work is evolving. And that and then it’s evolving, sort of like a surfer riding the wave of collective consciousness, you know, as it progresses. And perhaps it’s it’s progressing more and more quickly. But that’s interesting that you stay attuned to that.

Patricia Clum: Yeah, absolutely. So we may have people that, like I said, have visited us seven years ago sat with us. Yeah. And then they come back in, and their and their snow is if no time has passed, wherever they’ve been in seven years, they can dip back in with us. There’s never like ketchup or a feeling of separation, that’s a good way to put it to, is because we’re moving with it. And I was smiling, because on the Friday night, that’s how we explain it. We’re all riding the wave together. And Bill happens to be a surfer for many years. So it’s a double meaning.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And I imagine if they come back after seven years, if they remember what it was, like seven years ago, they realize that your work has evolved since then. Oh, yeah.

Patricia Clum: Absolutely. And, and are that bridge of trust has already been built? Yeah. And so they come in, and they’re what we call the the popcorn, you know, they come in and it’s boom, yeah, just so we start to speak half an hour into the event, right? Yes, sir. They just have no holding back. Yeah.

Rick Archer: One thing are often heard you say during the seminar recording that I listened to, as you’d often say, they’re telling me this, or, as I got the impression, you were indicating that they’re sort of subtle beings that that you were kind of, attuned to, or channeling or hearing, getting input from or something. What’s, what’s up with that? Yeah.

Patricia Clum: So that’s how energy works with me, it comes in his energy, it comes in. So what we see is that every heart in the room, you know, has called in this opening for themselves. So as we all sit together in this collective consciousness, many beings are with us, in the unseen world in the seen world. I don’t spend a lot of time speaking of channeling or if there’s someone that’s passed over in the room, unless it’s pertinent to that person’s opening at that moment, yeah, because I feel that people can get kind of lost there sometimes. Sure. And, and where what I’ve been asked and supported to do is really to focus on the heart. So I’ll however, that opens whatever wave I’m riding with that person. So their heart opens. Yeah, yeah.

Bill Clum: And so whatever wave somebody is in, if they’re going through a huge process of fear and trauma, we’re right there with them. We feel it we feel right into the place they’re in and as they’re weeping, we may weep with them. Because we feel them so deeply. And so when they know their support their where they’ve been in somebody else’s felt it. They’re more willing to trust and to let go so they can move through it. So we walk right through it with people, if they’re in hell, we go right there with him, and we help move or guide them to move through it, but we’re right there with them. We don’t leave anybody behind in their experience,

Rick Archer: but I guess I sort of get the sense it’s a team effort, though not just the two of you, but these subtler beings that that Yeah. patricius is attuned to theirs. Do you actually feel that sometimes you feel like okay, we’re just sort of instruments of the Divine and there’s, there’s a much sort of larger intelligence or intelligence is that are guiding us and motivating us and working through us. In order for us to have the effect that we manage to be catalysts for,

Patricia Clum: I feel that all the time, yeah, we have a structure or a container for the room. But the moment we start, we know we’re instruments, right? Patricia moves out of the way, she may get fed or asleep. But everything is just in the grace of God. And it’s not protected from here from Patricia, it’s not predicted. I know that whatever comes is this divine sacred moment of healing. And I know that each heart could have waited 1000s of years for this healing, the core of it healing. So without a doubt, I know I am an instrument. Yeah, yeah, I surrender to it. You know, the beginning of my early life, I did surrender so well. So it’s taken me years of opening, surrendering, allowing to be at the place that I am today, in this moment.

Bill Clum: Yeah, what we feel is that we do 5% of the work. And God divinity, the intelligence does the other 95%.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I kind of feel like that way myself. I sort of feel like anybody who’s really doing something to serve the spiritual awakening of mankind, gains a lot of support from, you know, perhaps unseen, absolutely, you know, places, but that there’s there’s a sort of a agendas, the right word, a sort of a, an imperative, or a motivation from, from divine intelligence to bring about this awakening. And anybody who wants to be on that team, you know, gets gets a great deal of support. But yeah, just by joining.

Patricia Clum: Absolutely. And they get sort of on the fast track. Yeah. So their life’s their mind can appear broken or not working. But we’re actually seeing it as the invitation. Actually, nothing’s working. Because Divine is speaking to you so clearly. So powerfully, there’s just a few filters in the way that you can’t receive it quite yet.

Rick Archer: You mean, anybody in particular who embarks on the spiritual path? Are you as teachers or what do you mean by that? No,

Patricia Clum: no, I mean, people that come and sit with us so No, right? Yeah. So not because it’s billing patrician, we don’t have that much clout. But in the near mirror nature of the sacred pneus of when we come together as a collective as a group, yeah. And everybody’s sitting in the room, no matter how their world looks to them, is getting a very powerful invite to be an instrument of evolution.

Rick Archer: Right? Yeah, it’s good. And they’re not there by accident.

Patricia Clum: Absolutely, yeah. You know, we have people that all sudden drive up. You know, they’re in tears, and they’re saying, I don’t even know why are here. We’re here. I’m here. But before I knew it, I was driving here. And then we have others that say, I wasn’t gonna come. I wasn’t gonna come. Yeah, you know, when we go. Yeah, we know. Okay, let’s ground and breathe.

Rick Archer: So did. What is the range of your teaching activity just up and down the West Coast? Or where do you go?

Patricia Clum: Yeah, so we go. So we have a smaller group in Berkeley, and San Francisco. We go to Olympia Washington. We bring going there quite regularly. Spencer, yeah. And paddle and Seattle. And we’re beginning to open in Vancouver, Washington. And we’re being asked to open in San Diego, usually we come to San Diego to rest are being asked now to open here. So we’ll see. And one big adventure we’re having is we’re actually going to take a group, a small group of 12 people to Bali. And so that’s the end of October. So we have a friend that lives she lives between Bali and India. She’s a healer herself. So she’s hosting us, okay, for the 12 people. Yeah, there’ll be a seven, eight day adventure.

Rick Archer: Is that one already signed up for or are there.

Patricia Clum: There’s openings and there were up get that up and going by tomorrow, Monday.

Bill Clum: We also have other openings in Canada. We’re on to Ireland’s and then Victoria. Bow and Ireland and we just been invited to the east coast of Ottawa, Canada. Alright, so that’s our newest opening now as the East Coast of Canada and Vancouver.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I was up there a couple years ago and went to Boland stay with a friend and did an interview there. Canella Michelle Myers and then went over to Vancouver Island and did a retreat with a fella named Lauren huff and did a couple interviews. There’s a really nice folks up Yeah, yeah. So people watching this then if they happen to live on these, I mean, you’re you also I guess do things over Skype and all right or over zoom.

Patricia Clum: Yeah, zoom. And we we offer a 20 Minute. So anybody if they just want to speak to us, and we can, you know, really inquire if this what we offer will support them. Yeah, a 20 Minute. And so they can just email us and we can arrange if they can say their name where they’re from. I mean, I’m always curious how they heard about us. So, yeah,

Rick Archer: yeah, well, right now 115 people are hearing about you. And there’ll be many more once I put this interview up. So they can get in touch. And I’ll be linking to your website, of course, as I always do with these interviews, and yeah, sure.

Patricia Clum: I just want to mention one thing, like we really work with all ages, we have a woman that’s turning 90, we’ve worked to like with a young teenage person. And all cultures all and people even coming from religion are still having a very devoted religious path. We work with everyone. Yeah, even if you’ve never done anything like this before, or have done this a long, long time. Just so people know that it no one is excluded. Right? Once welcome. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Do you sometimes encounter people who you feel are more seriously troubled than you’re equipped to deal with? And you refer them to absolute psychiatrist or somebody like that?

Patricia Clum: Yeah, we have a handful of people we recommend to people Yeah. And then we actually actually come on sometimes as a team. So if someone is, you know, has mental illness, they’ll have their psychiatrist, they might have like a counselor on top of that, and will come on as one of the team members. So we work with a team. So anyone, like I said, we will make sure that are supported properly. Great. Yeah.

Rick Archer: And when you have these retreats, how many people are typically on them?

Patricia Clum: We don’t take more than 16. So small, yeah. Yeah. So it’s usually 14 to 16. People.

Rick Archer: Okay. Great. Yeah. Good. Well, I hope that’s given everybody a taste of what you’re about what you have to offer, or a boat, as you would say, from Canada. Is there anything that you feel like is important that we haven’t thought to discuss in this? In this interview?

Patricia Clum: I feel like we’ve covered a lot. Thank you. Because I’m new to interviews, you know, so this is exciting. And I really appreciate your inquiry.

Bill Clum: Questions were really great. I mean, I’m not much of a person to sit and talk for an hour and a half. Questions are what really inspire me and spark me to go deep within to bring my gift out. So I really, really feel you asked us really great questions.

Rick Archer: Thank you. I had another page of notes with all kinds of points from one of Alex’s articles, and another one of your articles on the on the site, but I think we kind of covered those, and it’d be a little bit redundant to go into them. So but there are some blog posts on your site that people can read. And and Do you do any kind of, like, weekly or monthly webinar kind of thing? We’re like on Zoom, or 20 people might be on there and you’re having a session or?

Patricia Clum: Yeah, so what we, if when they go to our website, they’ll get four meditations from us, okay, when they registered for the they can register for those. They’re just given to them to support them, whatever. They’re going through there, like 10 minutes long. And we have a newsletter that we’re going to put out just every two months. And about every three months, we organize a virtual call. That’s what we call it. Yeah. So we haven’t set those dates yet. We have something shifting and moving. So once we have the dates, we would put them up on our website, or and send them out on in the newsletter for people to know.

Rick Archer: Okay, if people get on your email list, obviously, they can be notified of that. Yeah, absolutely. Great. All right, thanks. So let me just wrap it up. I’ve been speaking with Bill and Patricia or Patricia and Bill works both ways Klum. And this you’ll be able to click through to their website from mine that my their page on Buddha at the Gas Pump. He might as well just say what your website domain is. What does it

Patricia Clum: sure it’s evolution of the Okay,

Rick Archer: evolution of the heart calm. And this obviously is a ongoing series of interviews. So if you’d like to be notified of future ones, either subscribe on the YouTube channel on YouTube will notify you and I’d like it if I’m encouraging people to do that anyway, because once I reach reach a certain level of subscribers on YouTube, I get a lot more support from YouTube. There’s like YouTubers Representatives that work with you and everything. So subscribe if you haven’t, or else you can also sign up to be notified by email on the BatGap site. And this also exists as an audio podcast if you’d like to listen while you commute and things and just go to the website and poke around through the different menus and you’ll find various other things that we we offer. So thanks for listening, you’re watching next week, I’ll be speaking with a very interesting woman named Jude curry, Yvonne, who has a master’s degree in quantum physics and cosmology, a PhD in archaeology because she wanted to study the cosmology of ancient cultures. She, she began, like attuning to higher beings when she was four years old. She’s worked in the world of business at very high levels in the world, just as she’s a healer. I mean, very interesting person. I’m reading your book right now. So that’ll be next week’s interview. And if you look on our upcoming interviews page, you’ll see all the future ones as we schedule them. So thanks, Bill, and Patricia has really been good spending time with you.

Patricia Clum: You take care.

Bill Clum: Thank you so much.

Rick Archer: Yeah,

Patricia Clum: thank you very much.

Rick Archer: You’re welcome. And thanks again to those who’ve been listening or watching and we’ll see you next week.