Kylea Taylor Transcript

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Kylea Taylor Interview

Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of interviews with spiritually Awakening people have done over 500 of them now. And if this is new to you, and you’d like to check out previous ones, please go to batgap.com Bat gap and look under the past interviews menu. This program is made possible by the support of appreciative listeners and viewers. So if you appreciate it and would like to help support it, there’s a PayPal button on every page of the site. My guest today is Kylea Taylor, Kelly found gaps in ethics education in the early 1990s, while simultaneously studying to be a marriage and family therapist, and working as a senior trainer at the Grof transpersonal training, where she is assistant Stanislav Grof in training practitioners of Holotropic breathwork. She observed that working with clients and non ordinary states of consciousness requires different ethical awarenesses. She drew upon the tenets of several of the great religions to create inner ethics a model for ethical self reflection. The model clarifies the unique ethical territory of understanding and working skillfully with people who are experiencing profound and extraordinary states of consciousness and also provides a scaffolding for recognizing our semi conscious inner motivations as practitioners, teachers and caregivers in order to avoid client and student harm and increase client and student benefit. Her book, the ethics of caring Jen holding up here. Finding right relationships with clients, illustrates transference countertransference, power dynamics, dual relationship and other topics important to relational ethics. The book won the 2017 Nautilus Book Award and the category relationships and communication. How the teachers teaches, writes and consults about ethics. She is also currently president and co founder of soul collage Incorporated, which since 2003, has been training facilitators worldwide to share an expressive arts method that promotes deep self discovery, individually and in community. Phobias focus as a therapist has been on assisting clients in integrating the meaning and extraordinary gifts of spiritual emergence, awakening or transpersonal experiences and what she calls personal paradigm shift phenomena. And her website is Kelly Taylor calm and I’ll be linking to it, of course, from her page on BatGap. So welcome, Kalia.

Kylea Taylor: It’s really good to be with you. Yeah.

Rick Archer: listeners and viewers of this show will know that I have an interest in this topic. And was instrumental in helping to found the Association for spiritual integrity, which is spiritual hyphen, integrity.com. I think it is. And I’ve given, you know, talk or two on this topic at the sand conference and moderated panel discussions on it. But I don’t want to, I’m sure that in the course of this conversation, I’ll reiterate some of the reasons why I am interested in it. But I first like to ask you kindly, since you’re the one being interviewed, while yours, how did you get interested in it in the first place?

Kylea Taylor: Well, I think the short answer is I made a lot of mistakes. And I got curious about that when I made mistakes. And I wondered, you know, how did I do that? What were my motivations, and I kind of had to find my way through shame and blame and find my way to self compassion, and discover my vulnerable motivations and needs so that I could avoid making those mistakes again. And I saw a lot of other people who were making mistakes and people that I respected. And the situation that really got my attention, was a woman therapist who made a big ethical mistake and lost everything. She lost her license, she lost her house. She lost all her money. And what I realized then, as you said in my bio, was that traditional ethics education, the laws, the codes, standards, care were incomplete without including attention to inner motivations. So our fears and desires can be semi conscious and unconscious. And they can be very compelling and override our cognitive, ethical self. And so that was really interesting to me. And then in the inner ethics model that I finally created was a structure and a toolkit for people that are in responsible roles, caring for others to help those professionals and responsible parties, increase their ethical awareness, and prevent harm, even harm that they didn’t intend to make.

Rick Archer: Of course, you’re a professional licensed therapist, and so you’ve had a certain degree of ethical training, perhaps in your education. And you’ve also probably agreed to a code of ethics in order to become licensed and so on.

Kylea Taylor: Right, right. So far, yes, absolutely.

Rick Archer: But in the in the spiritual community, there is no formal structure for the most part, although certain Buddhist Sangha and so on have, you know, like Spirit Rock hat have codes of ethics and have, and for instance, the diamond approach of age almost has, again, a code of ethics and certain fairly rigorous criteria that one has to meet in order to become a representative or a teacher in that in that school. But to a great extent, the whole spiritual community is kind of the wild wild west. Yeah, there, there is no formal training or certification or oversight of any kind. And people are just doing whatever they are inclined to do. And it’s it’s kind of incumbent upon the students to determine the legitimacy of a teacher. And there have been many, many cases where students have been burned and hurt by teacher misbehavior. And I could get on my soapbox here and continue, but I think I’ll send it back to you for some comments.

Kylea Taylor: Yeah, well, I think you’re what you did with ASI, and creating that code of ethics. And creating, especially the guidelines for students is a really great first step for this. I think, you know, we have to get to critical mass and the culture, where people expect professionals to do self reflection, and to be open feedback. And, you know, that’s kind of my mission, you know, that’s the greater mission, I think, could change the ethos of our culture, to be more honest, and open to feedback.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And there’s a, there’s a bit of a wind at your back these days with the me to movement and the time’s up movement, and so on. That’s right, a number of others in situations where people are just fed up, you know, with the kind of misbehavior that’s been going on.

Kylea Taylor: When I first came up with this, really, there was nobody interested in it. And we sent out one flyer, I think, to massage schools, and they were interested. And so you know, in 20 years, we sold 20,000 copies, the first book without any other advertising, so that that community was interested, but not, you know, there was no critical mass in any other community.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Part of the reason, part of the reason I think this is so important is that, you know, maybe I’m naive or overly optimistic. But I really think that spirituality as I understand it, and as we often discuss it on this program, is very fundamental and very pivotal in helping to bring about a change that the world very much needs to undergo. And it could be that the whole I mean, not to get melodramatic, but that the whole fate of humanity kind of hangs in the balance and that spirituality a spiritual awakening is critical in helping that, that fate to go in a positive direction. And I think that the spiritual community shoots itself in the foot when it’s representative, there is leaders misbehave, it’s almost like some kind of inner sabotage taking place that can handicap the effort. What do you think about that? Well,

Kylea Taylor: well, it’s not only the misbehaving but it’s it’s really more about not owning the misbehaving, right, rash and not and not accepting feedback about things that they can’t see or don’t want to see and changing because they’re not modeling development for their students. What does that mean?

Rick Archer: Like development,

Kylea Taylor: not modeling, growing and learning how to be in relationship with other people? With the world, I mean, that’s really what spirituality is about is learning how to relate in this world of duality with other beings and other things, treating them as you would want to be treated. Yeah. And understanding why that’s important.

Rick Archer: And that may be something that the teacher him self has not really learned properly. If he had, then probably he’d be modeling it. Right. Right.

Kylea Taylor: Well, you know, people develop more strongly in different ways at different times. And there may be a relational re retardation in some way with some people.

Rick Archer: Yeah, Ken Wilber has his lines of development model where we can write quite advanced along certain lines and rather stunted along other lines. And, you know, you could have attained a fairly significant awakening or higher level of consciousness and yet be a real jerk in some other respects.

Kylea Taylor: That’s, that’s right. I was. I was thinking about Ken, when I, when I said that.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Okay. And so, some of the blowback that I’ve gotten regarding this whole topic, and my involvement in the ASI and all is, you know, firstly, there’s this sort of knee jerk reaction that oh, yeah, what is this? The God Squad? Who do you guys think, you know, to pass judgment on people? Do you think you’re holier than thou? And, and, you know, that kind of thing? And who’s to say what’s right and wrong? And, and so on, and so forth? Have you run into that kind of mentality?

Kylea Taylor: I have run into it in myself. Yeah. You know, when when somebody first asked me to be on an ethics committee, I said, No. I said, and I think a lot of people feel that way. They don’t want to be righteous. Maybe part of them wants to be righteous, but in general, they don’t want to be righteous and say somebody else’s wrong, and they don’t want to be controlled by other people. And they are defensive about the skeletons in their closet. I was, yeah. So yeah.

Rick Archer: Well, righteousness is almost synonymous with hypocrisy, you know, because there have been so many righteous people, self righteous people, who have been guilty of the very things that they’re railing about from the pulpit or from the their teaching platform.

Kylea Taylor: Yeah. But ethics really is one of the most interesting things in life. You know, if you look at any, if you’re enamored of any series on TV, for example, it’s full of ethical dilemmas. It’s the interesting stuff. It’s what turns you on what turns you off, you know, what conflicts you have? And, and that’s the way it’s a path to self discovery, really. And I think that’s why in spiritual systems, with, you know, like the Yamas, and the neons, and the precepts and Buddhism and commandments, and Christianity and Korean. All of those start the spiritual path with things that you have to kind of follow and what happens as you come into conflict? Because part of you doesn’t want to do them. Yeah. And you find out, you know, what’s, what about that, and gradually purify your ability to be in relationship? Hmm.

Rick Archer: Some say that, you know, we can only act according to our level of consciousness, and that you can give people all the precepts in the world, but if their level of consciousness is not very well developed, they won’t be able to follow them. Like, you know, there’s that saying, you know, what would Jesus do? And, you know, my response is, well, you kind of have to be Jesus to know. And even then you might do something different, because you’re not even if you’re his level of consciousness, you’re a different person and might behave in different circumstances.

Kylea Taylor: But you have your learning, you know, as you go, and hopefully, I guess the consciousness part is how open are you to learning? And what I call my motto in my model is make new mistakes. In other words, make new mistakes, rather than making the same old all the time.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And obviously, don’t make them intentionally just for the heck of it to see what that mistake would feel like. But try to try to avoid making them but realize you’re going to be

Kylea Taylor: fallible. Yes, it was tongue in cheek. Yeah, yes.

Rick Archer: Well, I mean, I think many people would argue that right and wrong are kind of relative terms. And they’re very much in the context of different cultures, for instance, I mean, some cultures might say there’s nothing wrong with polygamy and others would say that there is and you know, some of you have things that are in the Bible, particularly in Leviticus Some of the chapters, which would be downright illegal in our society would be considered barbaric. And yet they’re in the Bible. And some people take that as the Bible is literal, literally true under and all of its parts. So who’s How can we arrive at some kind of universal or absolute understanding of something which seems so relative?

Kylea Taylor: I use the term right relationship, not as right versus wrong, as you just said, but rather in the same sense that Buddhists talk about right action or Right Livelihood. And to me, right relationship is it’s situational. It’s a moving target. But the thing that is constant is that the professional or the personal that’s the responsible party and caring for someone. Is the well is it true? Well, wisher wholeheartedly, has a well wishing sense of wanting the best thing for this person that they’re caring for? That is possible. And that takes many forms. But that that to me is a kind of a bottom line.

Rick Archer: Yeah, so do unto others as

Kylea Taylor: the exact right. Okay, and, and even do unto this special person, what’s in the best interests of this special person?

Rick Archer: Yeah. Mother Teresa used to say that she kind of regarded all the people she was serving as Christ Himself. And she was just, you know, tending to Christ’s wounds and sicknesses and so on when she was helping the the cutter.

Kylea Taylor: Yeah. And, and everybody has that Christ consciousness or divine spark inside them. And you can use that as a way of doing the best.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Yeah, in fact, I jotted down a quote for your book, he said, ethical development requires an appreciation of our interconnectedness. We all have to dive into our own well, to reach the underground river that connects all sources of water. I like that.

Kylea Taylor: I got that from a guru. Yeah. Yeah. The idea is that you don’t he was trying to say that. The idea is you don’t go into a lot of different systems, you go deeply into one system. And you find the same water.

Rick Archer: Aha. Oh, yeah. That metaphor. Yeah. Don’t dig a whole lot of shallow wells dig one deep. Exactly. Right, exactly. But then there’s the idea of using 10 tools to dig one well, but anyway, we’ll get into that. But I mean, that the essential point there is that, you know, if we see deeply enough, we realize we’re all one person, we’re all, you know, essentially, same, not only not only similar or identical, but we’re all the same self, capital S. And so Whatsoever you do unto the least of the these you do unto unto me, you know,

Kylea Taylor: I think that says, yeah,

Rick Archer: yeah. As you know, the the Hindus have the concept of dharma. And as I understand it, dharma means you know, that course of action, which is most evolutionary in any given circumstance, and it’s and it’s not something you can just codify and and you know, have a whole book you’ve studied and know exactly what to do in any circumstance, because the whole thing is too complex. It somehow has to become so deeply involved in your consciousness that it will be spontaneous.

Kylea Taylor: Mm hmm. Yeah, and I think my guru again defined Sonata dharma as the true religion of the river that goes through all religion Yeah. And it’s the same with right relationship. I feel the same way about right relationship right relationship is a river of well wishing that goes through lots of different ways that it takes form.

Rick Archer: Do you mind saying who your guru was?

Kylea Taylor: I was initiated by Amrit Desai. But I really it was very interesting i i got Shakti pot and then I came, I decided I was going to live there for a summer for four months. And I came five days after his guru came. Swami cripple Binondo Ji and I have always felt he was my guru. Although he was technically my grandfather, Guru Ubercart,

Rick Archer: they call it Yeah, yeah.

Kylea Taylor: So I really, I’ve just really reconnected. Some books are out about him recently and reading all the talks that he gave that summer, he broke his silence and gave his gave talks. And he’s an entity with He changed my life.

Rick Archer: Good timing on your part of showing you did see universe. And Amrit Desai has been on that gap. And, of course, you know, ironically, he had his own ethical crisis. And it was dealt with in a rather mature way by that community, as I recall. Is that part of what motivated you to get interested in this topic? Was it so close to know

Kylea Taylor: to speak? No, I didn’t know any of that was going on at the time that I was there. I did send him my first book, but I never received any response from it. Yeah. After I heard about what was going on, and I think, I think leaders that have that problem, miss an opportunity to own it, you know, publicly and, and teach by that. And that’s kind of what I said to him, which was really, probably not something you wanted to hear at the time. Yeah. But I saw the interview that you did with Omron. And, you know, the, the way he acts I knew he asked the question, you know, and then the way he answered it was, well, when you’re in that kind of sadhana, there’s very, very strong energy in the second chakra. And energy sometimes just goes down and out. Yeah, instead of up and in. And I thought, well, that sounds like boys will be boys, you know. And it really doesn’t deal with the betrayal of a disciple. When sexual activity happens between the guru and the disciple, because, you know, a lot of times people call as I do, Guru, Baba Ji dear father, it means. And so. And also, there’s a stage insert in sadhana where it’s really important to surrender, surrender everything in loving bhakti. And when that is abused, it is like child abuse. It’s like incest. Yeah, it is. And it’s devastating to somebody. Not only has the group in hypocritical about Brahmacharya or abstinence, but he has betrayed and violated the trust of the disciple. So and I think you can come back from that, you know, you if you own it, and you look at it, and you say, I’ll never do that again. And maybe he did that privately. And that’s possible. And, and I’m not trying to judge him. But I’m just saying that as a as a public figure. If you do something like that, and you know, it’s in the, it’s in the lawsuits and everything anyway, why not own it? And, and teach thereby?

Rick Archer: Yeah, I know, I kind of sprung that question on him. And I remember that answer. And I thought at the time, yeah, but then obviously, you’re, you’re saying your work in progress and vulner vulnerable as a, you know, relatively unenlightened student might be expected to be, you know, but if you’re posing as the guru, then there’s a certain responsibility that comes with that.

Kylea Taylor: But I don’t think gurus are ever at their final point. I don’t even know that. And that’s, that’s what one has to model. If one is a teacher that you’re always learning. And I’m not, you know, I’m just speaking of one thing, he gave me a ton of stuff. He gave me Baba Ji, he gave me Shakti pot. Yeah. He taught me a lot of things that he taught in satsang. I use in my therapy, and I’m very grateful for that.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I totally understand. And, you know, my teacher had some ethical lapses, but he saved my life, you know, and, and always be grateful for that. And so it’s good not to throw the baby out with the bathwater and be too black and white in one’s thinking. But at the same time, it’s important. I think we’ll be getting into this more. It’s important to be discriminating and discerning and call a spade a spade and not not sort of rationalize away inappropriate behavior because, oh, well, this guy seems to be so enlightened and this couldn’t have taken place. Or even if it did take place, it couldn’t be wrong, because he’s enlightened and how could you do anything wrong? And you hear that kind of thinking among, among students? Yeah.

Kylea Taylor: Well, people really, and this gets into the model a little bit, I talk about transference and countertransference. In my model, and people need to do transference they need to say, okay, yeah, transference is really projection of past dynamics, past relational dynamics on to another person. So give us an example. Well, I was going to give you the example of the spiritual teacher, people need to love them themselves. But what they do first, is unconditionally love the guru. And then at some point, they need to bring that back and understand that they are loving themselves, and they also have the divine spark in them. So it’s important to hold that so that they can see it. But it’s not it’s important not to get identified with it too. And inflated. And what happens, I think, to spiritual leaders a lot of times is they’re isolated. And they are isolated from feedback and peer support.

Rick Archer: Sometimes intentionally. They don’t want to.

Kylea Taylor: That’s right. They don’t. And, yeah, so that’s,

Rick Archer: that’s a copy of a paragraph from your book. On that point. He said, a leader of a spiritual community may isolate himself from colleagues who are genuine peers or mentors. He sees himself as a pioneer in his field Maverick, a creative genius, who was ahead of his time, his peers might present him with ethical objections to his treatment of family, friends, lovers, students and clients. But he would dismiss this feedback has the moralistic grumbling of smaller quote, neurotic minds, jealous of his attendance and his following? And that is almost literally the kind of thing I’ve heard some teachers say.

Kylea Taylor: Yeah. True. Yeah. Yeah. Well, you really, it’s hard not to get inflated, when that’s all you hear. You’re carrying the transference of a huge community? Who needs to see love outside themselves? Yeah.

Rick Archer: So if you were, let’s say, counseling, a well known spiritual teacher, and, you know, he had built quite a following and, and maybe he began to feel that he was in danger of getting a bit too big for his britches, or just, you know, just getting carried away with all the adulation that was being showered upon him? How would you advise him and that spiritual community to deal with it so as not to allow Prague problems to arise?

Kylea Taylor: Well, I’m a really big fan of peer supervision. I don’t know how that would work, and a spiritual community, because what he would have to find maybe he’s too isolated, defined it is other professionals, who are spiritual leaders, or psychologists or therapists to have regular meetings with to talk about it, you know, I and I think peer supervision groups could really use the Johari Window. Do you know the Johari? Window? No, it’s it’s a very interesting diagram that was done in the 50s by two guys named Joe and Harry. Oh, and, and it’s a, it’s a square with four quadrants.

Rick Archer: Maybe we’ll paste it in here. At this point, yeah, interviewer will find that we pasted it in Yeah, we could.

Kylea Taylor: So one quadrant is the open and free quadrant, where it’s all the things I know about myself and all the things you know about me. And then there’s the other quadrant where I have secrets, and I know them, but you don’t know them. And in order for you to know them, I have to tell you, and then there’s another quadrant where you know, things about me that I can’t say, and I don’t know, and in order for me to know them, I have to ask or be open to feedback or both. And then the final quadrant is where you don’t know these things about me and I don’t know these things about me and I really have to do personal deep work to get to that stuff that’s in there. And I would say personal deep work is breath work. Deep therapy work. Hypnosis work, psychedelic medicine work, going into deep non ordinary states of consciousness where you are letting you are giving the inner healer, the inner healer that’s always looking for conditions where it can bring what’s on top of our psychic list that needs to be healed up so that it can be healed. So it’s looking for the right conditions, and it brings up the material. And I think spiritual teachers need to do that too. And it can happen in meditation or sadhana. But, you know, maybe stronger, something else, something that’s less defended, maybe less familiar might be helpful.

Rick Archer: Yeah. There’s that Robert Burns poem about, you know, seeing ourselves as others see us. Yeah, I can’t do the Gaelic or whatever that dialect was. But this is an interesting consideration. I mean, you know, I know, I know, some teachers who do do that sort of thing. For instance, Miranda McPherson, who has been on the show for a couple of times, mentioned that she frequently sort of goes to other teachers to satsang, or whatever, and also gets, sits with a therapist periodically, just to sort of do some housecleaning. And, you know, other teachers I know, who have done some of the other things you just mentioned. But there’s, I would say it’s in the minority, I’d say most teachers just keep kind of going along and doing their thing. And, you know, maybe maybe some of them get feedback from some friends and students, but a lot of them just seem to be on a roll from from my observation, and don’t have the kind of opportunity for for scrutiny by others.

Kylea Taylor: Well, I think their lives get very busy. Yeah, they do. It’s, it’s hard to make time. I know that in my life right now, I need some time to. Yep.

Rick Archer: I think there’s also a tendency for teachers to or many people to have had a profound awakening, and feel a sense of completion, and not kind of realize that there’s a lot of cobwebs to be swept out of dark corners, you know, that they just seem so full and clear, and blissful, or whatever wise, and it kind of unless, and unless they do so intentionally or others, sort of present them with it, they’re not likely to go looking for those cobwebs.

Kylea Taylor: Yeah, and I think if there’s any egregious unethical behavior, it it behooves the community to bring that to the Guru’s attention, or the leaders attention. But it’s sometimes very difficult to be heard.

Rick Archer: It is not only because the teacher might just brush you off, but because there’s a lot of peer pressure not to do that. And most of the most of your peers in that community won’t even believe that the behavior is taking place unless they have more direct evidence of it. Yeah,

Kylea Taylor: yeah. And it’s not just sex. It’s also a lot usually as it usually is. The worst stuff really is. Yeah, but, but also money. I mean, people with trust, funds can be exploited and so forth. Yeah,

Rick Archer: current examples of that, where large sums of money are being taken by teachers that I know things about that if the person who’s giving that money knew they wouldn’t give it right.

Kylea Taylor: And also can be exploited in the power center in my model by disempowering someone rather than empowering someone

Rick Archer: explain that a little bit.

Kylea Taylor: Well, just keeping a person in a place of dependency, rather than empowering them to be all that they can be. And I don’t have a specific example but you know, there’s many ways that can can happen

Rick Archer: if you think of it. Okay. Well, just that um, you know, a lot of times there’s a strong hierarchical structure built up in spiritual communities. Where this there’s it’s not like a circle arrangement where everybody is including the teacher is kind of on the same level that the teacher is literally and figuratively up on, on high on a pedestal, on Dyess or on stage. And that that dynamic sort of perpetuates the mindset that, you know, this person, I couldn’t possibly challenge this person and know certain things that they don’t know, something like that you could probably elaborate, but that seems to be quite common.

Kylea Taylor: Yeah. Yes, not validating that they have gifts to offer. And always keeping them one down. Yeah. Yeah.

Rick Archer: I read send a question over here. She said, What about my cobwebs on the same topic and lecturing to people is, is? Oh, it wasn’t for public consumption? Well, you know, I admit to having cobwebs, that it’s not a I don’t mind. And, as I’ve, you know, like you said, at the very beginning of the interview you you made certain ethical mistakes, which made you more interested in ethics. And you know, and I have to, and I feel like each one has made me much more inclined to scrutinize myself and be careful and be what is it Don Juan Carlos Castaneda, his teacher said a warrior has time only for his impeccability and pumice and Baba said, and I’m not referring to my own awareness here. But public promise. And Baba said, Though my awareness is as vast as the sky, my attention to karma is as fine as a grain of barley flour. So, you know, no one is even these, you know, Great Beings are, we’re here I go, calling them great beings, but they are in a certain respect our work is above the possibility or beyond the possibility of stumbling in some way. I remember there’s a beautiful story, I’ll just talk briefly and then get back to you. Yeah, one of the things I really liked in Yogananda, his book was that when he met his teacher, sure, you have to show our show, you have to swear, you know, said to him, you know, if I ever seem to be falling from my state of God consciousness, you know, call me on it helped me they don’t bring it to my attention.

Kylea Taylor: Well, I think Irene brought up a good thing, because where, where spiritual leaders, ethical problems, or relational problems may happen is in their personal relationships. And so that might be the first place to, to look,

Rick Archer: yeah, it’s kind of handy to, to be married in a way or to be in a close relationship, because then you’re a lot less able to get away with your, with your stuff, you know, with your idiosyncracies.

Kylea Taylor: I know. It’s in your face.

Rick Archer: Yeah. I mean, I lived in a monastic community for about 15 years and and you could get really kooky and no one, no one would really call you on it. Because if they did, you could always gravitate to someone, some other area of the thing and, and not have not have it be in your face. Alright, so marriage is a big wake up call. So as we go along, any anytime an idea comes to mind that I’m not bringing up, feel free to just bring it up and those who are listening, if they have questions, feel free to send them in. You brought up the term ethical fading in your book, and elaborate on that term a bit. And then I might have a question or two.

Kylea Taylor: Well, the idea, and it’s not my term, it’s, I mean, you probably have the, the name of the person there that came up with it. But it’s when organizations gradually have an ethnos of taking care of themselves to the detriment of their clients. I think one example, that was used there, it was actually a midwife, or a doula who brought this up. Because somebody who was in, well, last stages of labor, came into the hospital and had to fill out all kinds of forms and standing there, you know, just and what should have exactly, and what should have happened is that she would, went immediately to a place where she could be comfortable and have the baby as quickly as it wanted to come. So it’s kind of like that. It’s like what are we putting in place in our organizations in values? And in you know, there are forms and procedures that get in the way of taking care of what we’re supposed to take care of our clients, our customers are our employees.

Rick Archer: Yeah. One thought that that term evokes for me and I was the way you intended is that, you know, very often spiritual organizations start out kind of fresh and pure and uninspiring and so on, and then they just very gradually, incrementally kind of go off the rails, you know, get weirder and weirder. They’re more and more cult, like more and more dysfunctional. You know, and it happens, it’s like that. I don’t think this is a true example that anyone that would really work with us at all think about tossing a frog in the boiling water, as opposed to just heating up the water slowly, you know? Yeah, if it’s heated slowly, the frog doesn’t realize it, and so he doesn’t jump out. But I don’t like that example. Because I wouldn’t toss a frog into boiling water, or slowly but but in any case, you know, if the thing happens slowly enough. People just their own mentality sort of adjust to it as it happens. And they don’t realize how how strange the whole thing is becoming?

Kylea Taylor: Yes, I think that happens. And I think people don’t like change, and they can get, as I said, In the beginning, right relationship is a moving target. It’s not static. And when, when a community or an organization gets to have static roles, and static, and they’re not looking at themselves as an organization, then you get that kind of thing, because people don’t like to change. And it seems to me that the best organizations are organizations where change is a given. Like we’re always doing it, we don’t get to, to stop and go into what you’re talking about,

Rick Archer: huh? Yeah, I think another thing that comes sometimes goes along with this ethical fading thing is that the notion that starts to creep in that the end justifies the means. You know, what, our mission is so glorious, and it’s going to have such a wonderful effect on the world that it doesn’t matter if we violate these tax laws or, you know, smuggle money in a suitcase or, you know, an individual’s are dispensable. That’s another one. The mission is so grand, that if a few individuals are sacrificed along the way, that’s not going to matter.

Kylea Taylor: Yeah. Did you see the documentary on the Rajneesh?

Rick Archer: Yeah, well, well, country? Watch the whole thing.

Kylea Taylor: Fabulous documentary? I thought. And that was an example of that kind of thing, I think. Yeah.

Rick Archer: And you know, funnily enough, I mean, just to sort of give some credit where credit is due. I have a number of friends who went through all that and are wonderful people. Yeah,

Kylea Taylor: I know. I do, too. Yeah. No, I’m not saying I thought it was a fabulous documentary, because it was done talking to First Person people on both sides. And it showed the harm that was done. But it also showed, you know, what were the motivations of the people that were doing the harm, and how it just didn’t get sorted out before it all fell apart.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Do you think in some convoluted roundabout way? I don’t mean to for this to sound like an alibi. But do you think that sometimes people, it’s their, it’s sort of in their best interest to go through an experience with a corrupt teacher, because it teaches them some things that through the school of hard knocks, that they wouldn’t have learned so easily? And with a more benign teacher?

Kylea Taylor: Well, I wouldn’t prescribe it any more than I would prescribe? Child abusing parents, right. But But it’s true that our wounds teach us no matter how they’re how they, whichever, which ones we all have them. Which ones we get?

Rick Archer: Yeah, yeah. Yeah, that’s a good point. I mean, you wouldn’t prescribe it. But a lot of people say in retrospect that this or that that they went through, they’re kind of grateful for despite the fact that they wouldn’t have asked for it? Well, I interviewed a guy named Damien Echols a couple months ago, who spent 18 years on death row for a murder that he didn’t commit. And he said, If I had to do all over again, I do it all over again, because I use that time to focus so deeply on my spiritual practice that it transformed me.

Kylea Taylor: Wow. Gave a new meaning to sell or monastic sell. Yeah, really? Yeah,

Rick Archer: story. Look, a question came in from a man or a woman named Darcy from Chennai, India. narcy asks, we talked about the Guru’s ethical mistakes, which is important. How about the ethics of the student? Why do so many students fall for the Guru’s advances? You know, both sex and money? It seems like students are just too eager to fall.

Kylea Taylor: I think still are in the vulnerable role, you know, when there’s a power differential there in the vulnerable role. And in the healing process, I think people are always trying to create a corrective experience. And the inner healer may say, Well, this, this grew looks good, that’s a good parent figure, I can project on that parent figure. And this time, it’s going to be the good daddy or the good mommy. And then when it isn’t, there’s betrayal. But I do think at the same time, what we can do is what you’ve done with the student guidelines, is education, about discernment about what they deserve, in terms of a spiritual teacher, or, or a therapist or any whoever it is the spiritual leader, because they need to know, students need to know. And the other thing is that students and clients make up the bulk of this population in the spiritual community. And we’re never going to get to Critical Mass until the students and clients are part of the awareness.

Rick Archer: I feel very strongly about that point. Yeah.

Kylea Taylor: I hope that answered, good. Nice question.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Did from for me, anyway, hope. And feel free to ask a follow up now see if you if you’d like to ask more about that. Okay. You’ve I don’t know, one thing we may not have touched on yet. Is that, and you can comment on this, is that, you know, we’ve talked a lot about the teachers and the obligation of the teachers, and so on and so forth. But not well, Narcissus. Question kind of segues us into this, which is that? Would you say that ethical behavior has a value for the student? It regardless of what the teacher may or may not be doing just in that student’s own life, because lack of it is, is weakening or damaging or in purifying in some way? It’s kind of like letting the water out of the bathtub while you’re trying to fill the bathtub at the same time?

Kylea Taylor: Yes, I think that’s a good point. I think, you know, one of the concepts in my model is protection, permission, and connection. And those are the three elements that are needed in balance in any healing container. And I think if the group can provide those, then there is an opportunity to learn, I don’t think anybody can learn or heal without protection, without safety, elaborate on each of those a little bit. Yeah, well, protection is safety’s having clear agreements, keeping the agreements, having honesty and clear messages about money, and that sort of thing. And permission is really providing that encouragement, that empowerment, validating what they what they experience, if it’s true, and encouraging risk to the level that would not be breaking. In other words, if you’re doing yoga, a stretch, but you don’t break injuries, so but encouraging, enough change, encouraging change, and the connection is helping people connect in a good way have right relationship with all their inner parts, have right relationship with other people. And the guru would be modeling that right relationship, in connection with the person. So all those things in balance, some people need more protection, some people need more permission is important. I don’t know whether I went off of what you were talking about. But I think it’s it’s an important thing. ethical behavior, I was trying to say that ethical behavior happens when the container is ethical, and that way is balanced with all those three elements.

Rick Archer: Okay, so just to play on that a bit more. So if those three elements aren’t balanced, then you say you might be implying that unethical behavior is more likely to occur, right if there’s an imbalance

Kylea Taylor: it might it yes, it might disempower somebody or Yes, dishonesty. That kind of thing.

Rick Archer: As a therapist, have you dealt with very many people who have been hurt by either by spiritual teachers or by other by therapists of various other kinds?

Kylea Taylor: A few. Yes.

Rick Archer: And is there anything in your experience with them? Which would be useful to to add to the conversation here?

Kylea Taylor: Well, I think, you know, if somebody is hurt by a spiritual community, and a spiritual teacher that they’ve really given their trust to and followed all their guidance and so forth. It really is very damaging, especially if it’s a long term situation. You know, it impacts your self esteem and your ability to make decisions. So, yeah, it’s, if you can clean all that up with the ASI.

Rick Archer: Well, thanks, we’ll get right to it. Well, yeah, I mean, one point that comes to my mind is that, you know, when a person has, just as I’m sure if someone has been abused by their father, by a teacher or something like that, it, it sort of creates a deep impression that can kind of scar them for life in a way it makes it very hard for them to trust father figures or other teachers, or so on. I’ve seen it in the spiritual realm where people have gotten very cynical or disillusioned about all spiritual teachers or about spirituality in general, because of some bad experience they’ve had. And that’s a shame, I think, and it’s also I wouldn’t want the karma of the teacher that caused that happened.

Kylea Taylor: Yeah, I think it can be healed. Yeah. And I think a lot of wounding that happens happens. Like that happens in an ordinary state. If you’re in a real bhakti. State, you’re, you’re in a non ordinary state of consciousness. And I think, just like the wounding happened in a non ordinary state healing happens in a non ordinary state. So there are places you can go. There’s a lot of PTSD research being done by maps right now, the Multidisciplinary Association of Psychedelic Studies who are using MDMA for trauma, healing, and they’ve had incredible success. with it. It’s I don’t know if you know about it, but yeah, but but they’re anticipating that it will be legal in a couple of years, so that therapists can use it. And you just have to do it, you know, 123 times, something like that, and use therapy in addition to that, and it helps people work through the trauma that occurred without the fear of feeling the wounding feeling the trauma again, it’s a real mitigating a fear medicine.

Rick Archer: Yeah. I don’t remember whether this was in your book, or perhaps in something that I came across when I was preparing for Michael pole and and Chris herbaceous interview last week. But there was something about people who had suffered from PTSD being made to watch horrible videos of violent things happening to people to sort of desensitize them to stressors like that. And I thought, Wow, what a what a crude,

Kylea Taylor: kind of I think that’s, I think that’s really crazy. Yeah, it’s very crazy. Yeah. Yeah, I think you have to go into a place where you’re really safe. And this is not like doing MDMA and a rave or something. And this is like eyeshades lying down to sitters or to therapists, and really going into your inner world. Yeah. And I just want to say what the statistics are, because it’s really kind of amazing. That 68% of people who have done this therapy, three sessions and therapy in between, in one year after that they have no PTSD symptoms. That’s fantastic. And it’s nothing like that is available for PTSD. Yet,

Rick Archer: yeah. I do know that some types of meditation are being used for PTSD sufferers, and they’re also getting some very good results. But anything that works, you know, yeah. Well, I’m glad you kind of brought up the state at this point, because a lot of your book focuses on the point that non ordinary states are They bring up compelling desires and fears and longings and people. And so their special needs for clients and these profound states of consciousness. And it always, I used to go on a lot of long meditation courses, six weeks, six months. And you’d get into the depth of the course. And you’d kind of feel like jello, which hadn’t really been molded yet and could be molded in any direct Wow. And then as the as the course was the end, you would gradually taper off the amount of meditation you were doing over a period of weeks, or even a couple of months or something, depending on the length of the course. And so the mold would sort of form carefully. But anyway, there’s a kind of an openness or vulnerability that when people get into non ordinary states, however, those states have been evoked, that I think deserves special consideration, and you’ve talked about it quite a bit in your book. So please talk about a bit more now.

Kylea Taylor: Yeah. Well, I think you’ve described it, I think people are really much more suggestible. It’s almost like a hypnotic state. It’s similar to a hypnotic state. So that if you have a sitter or a therapist, and you’re really in a non ordinary state, like one that is catalyzed by breathwork, or psychedelic medicine, then you’re not lost my train of thought.

Rick Archer: If you’re in a non ordinary state, that has been brought about by breathwork, or some other thing, then you’re susceptible. suggestible.

Kylea Taylor: Yes, yeah, you’re susceptible to any kind of intervention. Yeah. So it’s, I think it’s really important to not intervene, and follow on what we’re trained to do. And Holotropic breathwork is more like Midwifery, you know, just to follow the process of the person. And assist them when they’re when you when they asked for it when they asked for it verbally or non verbally. But to let leave them alone and let the inner healer do the rest. I I love what Leo Leo’s zaf was a psychedelic therapist in LA, in the 50s 60s and 70s, under the underground, and he was interviewed in a book called The Secret chief. And he said, I was he was a psychologist. And he said, I started out doing this and I started doing therapy on them when they were taking LSD or whatever. And then I realized that didn’t work. And he said, I have no idea what they need. The only thing that does it’s something inside them. They don’t even cognitively though know what they need, but it’ll take care of it. All you have to do is, you know, trust the inner healer, once that non ordinary state is, is brought into. So I think a lot of bad things happen when interventions are made without asking, this is one of my questions in my book, who’s this for? You know, we all when we’re making interventions as a therapist or a leader or answering questions, we have to say, Who’s this for? Is this for me? Am I doing this for my benefit? Or is it really for the clients best interest?

Rick Archer: How much psychedelic therapy is actually going on now. I mean, it’s it’s not legal to do in a kind of a routine basis. And I know there’s some research taking place at John Johns Hopkins and NYU and some other places, but some your book and you allude to it being done by people, and I guess maps, you know, has these big conferences and everybody’s talking about it. So is there a whole lot of underground kind of psychedelic therapy taking?

Kylea Taylor: I think there is. And I think the people that you had on last week, Michael Pollan and Chris page, talked about that. And I think it’s gradually becoming legalized gradually, I think MDMA is the whether you call that the prowl of the icebreaking shippers. Yeah. And the reason is because the government really wants to save billions of dollars on PTSD care for veterans. Yeah. So anyway, it happens. We’ll be good because veterans will benefit from this.

Rick Archer: I heard a story on NPR this morning that Police are twice as likely to die from suicide as they are from being shot by somebody on the job. And it’s because of the incredible stress they’re under. Wow. All the time.

Kylea Taylor: Yeah, well, they’ve done a lot of research with people like firefighters and police and veterans, as well as child abuse.

Rick Archer: Yeah. What do you see as the sort of potential downside of psychotherapy? So psychedelic therapy, I mean, it kind of, you know, went off the rails in the 60s with Timothy Leary, and all and, you know, became illegal, what could, what could scuttle it now, that that needs to be sort of attended to and prevented?

Kylea Taylor: I think the biggest issue that they’re trying to grapple with is training, call Farrish. qualifications. If you’re working with non ordinary states, you need lots of training in experiential, non ordinary states. You need to know what’s happening, what kind of field is created, what kind of compelling motivations come up, hears and desires, and you. And, you know, I think the best training I’ve seen so far is the Grof transpersonal training, because it’s a two, it’s at least a two year training, it has nine weeks of training in it, and people get to be a sitter, and then a breather, and two paired sessions. And when they’re a sitter, they really notice all the things that all the things they would like to do to fix that person when they’re having experiences and feelings. And don’t do it. And then we talk about it. And when they’re a breather, they learn what what happens in that non ordinary state, the kind of experiences that can happen, the variety of experiences that can happen, and the intensity of them.

Rick Archer: So you’re alluding to Holotropic breathwork. And I think we need to explain a little bit more, um, I interviewed Stan Grof, about four years ago, and I don’t think I did a very good job. I had too much going on that weekend. And I was tired. And I didn’t, I’ve always felt bad that I didn’t do justice to the man because I think he’s really been a giant and in this so many ways, but you work with him a lot. So please explain did let me start with a question. Did he introduced Holotropic breathwork, because psychedelics had become illegal, and he was looking for a non chemical way of eliciting similar states.

Kylea Taylor: Well, I think he and Christina both devised his wife, device, Holotropic breathwork. And he had noticed, and doing psychedelic sessions, like LSD sessions, that sometimes the session would complete itself and be just fine. And then sometimes something else would start up again at the very end and would not complete itself. And that what the inner healer would do is start doing rapid breathing like perineum, best Trico. Or and if you can’t remember the other one firebreath

Rick Archer: Yeah, one of those pranayamas.

Kylea Taylor: Yeah. So

Rick Archer: the Chris mentioned, Chris beige mentioned that he would do that in snot blowing out his nose and doing this fast breathing. It would just have were happening spontaneously. Yeah.

Kylea Taylor: I, my big question is, where does all this not come from? Like. So yeah, so that’s what he decided to do. And they just had people do rapid breathing, but not not rapid breathing, but continuous breathing without a pause between the in breath and the out breath deep. But I think what they really contributed, was all the safety features all the permission, protection and connection features of the container. And, you know, if people that we’re doing are going to do or want to do psychedelic work, there are now trainings to be accepted by them. But the the experiential component of that is necessarily brief. But the Grof transpersonal training has that all built in. So, you know, I really recommend it. It’s the best thing I know of that, in fact, the people that are teaching the maps training now are graduates of the Holotropic breathwork training.

Rick Archer: Well, you’ve done both, presumably, how do you feel that the subjective experience compares?

Kylea Taylor: I haven’t done the training to be a psychedelic therapist.

Rick Archer: Oh, but you’ve done psychedelics and you’ve also done a lot of Holotropic breathwork. So yeah, how would you compare them subjectively?

Kylea Taylor: Oh, I get it. I think all the same kinds of experiences can happen either way. I think each medicine and the breath work has their own characteristic. When you do the breath work, it’s natural. And you can give it more energy by breathing more at any time and, and stop breathing and take a break or rest or contemplate. And with the psychedelic, you don’t really have that chance. You’re on the roll on the roller coaster. So and every medicine has its characteristic. So they’re all different in a way.

Rick Archer: What do you think are the mechanics of Holotropic breathwork? I mean, some would argue, oh, you’re just flushing the brain with oxygen or some such thing. You’re hyperventilating. But obviously a lot of profound stuff goes on that couldn’t really be explained by that expert by that, you know, explanation. So what do you think it’s actually doing on a subtle level to evoke the kinds of experiences it does?

Kylea Taylor: I don’t know the chemistry of it. I should, but I never been interested in research or chemistry or that stuff. I’m interested in quantum physics, but not not particularly chemistry. So I don’t know. But I know that it takes you into a non ordinary state, and turns off your resistances to that somehow gives you the experience that’s next on the last of the inner healers, wish list.

Rick Archer: I suspect and this is just a theory that, you know, it’s doing something to the subtle energy system, the noddy’s the Shama, you know, the Kundalini, all that stuff. I’m throwing my terms out here. But it’s, it’s somehow enlivening or awakening the subtle energy system, because I mean, the yogi’s put great importance on breath, and what kinds of techniques involving breath. And for that very reason that they consider the, for instance, the two nostrils, when you go back and forth, doing a certain kind of pranayama, it’s thought that one nostril corresponds to the the EDA and the other to the Pingala, which are these two channels that run parallel with the shimmed up the center of the spine, and that you balance, and the, there’s even an explanation that if, if you notice, every couple hours or something, your breath will shift predominantly throughout the day, from one nostril to the other. And that’s because there are these two subtle nervous systems that trade off in functioning and give each other a break. And that you can balance those two nervous systems doing pranayama by going back and forth more quickly than then they would ordinarily go back and forth, and creating that balance then sets the stage for a more profound experience in meditation, in any case, have a feeling that somehow knowingly or otherwise hold tropic breathwork uses that those mechanics to trigger Yes, experiences it does.

Kylea Taylor: I would think so. I it kind of kickstarts prana. Yeah. And, and then the prana probably takes you to whatever experience I don’t know, it’s, it’s a mystery, how it how it happens. But I know there’s all often a lot of physical, chronic kind of experiences that people have,

Rick Archer: do they sometimes have Kundalini awakenings or, you know, some of the phenomena that are associated with those, you know, crying and shaking around and you know, tree as they call that kind of stuff.

Kylea Taylor: I think when you have a prana opening, there’s always a chance that might also be a Kundalini opening. For me, the first time I did Holotropic breathwork, I think I had a chrono opening I saw I saw Shiva and kind of reaching out to Shiva. And then after that, I had a the week after that I was at a month long it SLM with Stan and Christina. And, and that week, I had what I now think was a healing illness where I couldn’t eat. I really I just couldn’t eat. I had a high fever and I stayed in bed, miss a week at the workshop. And then some people were doing MDMA and going down to the beach and doing MDMA and I thought, well, try a little bit of it, you know, so I went and did 25 milligrams, which a It’s 125, it’s the normal dose. And I really had an opening. And then the next week, I went down and did it and did a normal dose. And that was the beginning of my Kundalini opening. And it was powerful. You know, the first thing I knew when I had taken that was, I heard a baby crying, being born and crying. And then I realized it was me. Well, I was so deep inside, you know, and then it just kept going for, I don’t know, 15 hours or something like that, all kinds of careers and all kinds of stuff. And then it lasted for five years without the drugs. So I think what happened was I tell this story, because I think what happened was that MDMA removed the fear. So that the fear of that holding back letting go, you know, letting letting that energy move through my body and get rid of all the blocks that were there.

Rick Archer: Interesting. Yeah. It’s good to keep an open mind. I mean, you know, I went through my drug thing in the 60s. And after that, I just thought, never again, I wouldn’t touch this stuff. I’m doing fine without them. Yeah, but, you know, regular meditation practice, but, you know, it’s like, everything I’m exposed to these days in terms of talking to all these people. It’s made me much more open minded about the, you know, potential for these things, as long as it’s done very responsibly and seriously. Absolutely. Because otherwise, it’s just gonna cause more harm than good. Yeah. And gray. In the notes you sent me, you said something about paradigm shifts. What did you want to say about paradigm shift?

Kylea Taylor: It’s just the word. I use personal paradigm shift, sometimes instead of spiritual emergence or spiritual emergency, because sometimes people have what I would say it’s a spiritual emergency. And they say, oh, it’s not spiritual, spiritual, but it’s a big shift in their belief system. What happens is their belief system, it becomes too small, does not hold. Yeah, they’re outgrowing it. Yeah. And I think sometimes that can be slow as in emergence. Spiritual emergence, though, just happens here and there, when the inner healer has the right conditions and so forth. Or it can you can just veer over into the fast lane with it. And it becomes a spiritual emergency, which simply means that you’re not functional in the usual way that you have been functional for a period of time. Yeah. And you might look psychotic, but you’re not.

Rick Archer: Oh, you can be I mean, although you can be Yeah, I’ve seen people do long meditations and then actually really get psychotic, and, you know,

Kylea Taylor: yeah, sometimes getting into a non ordinary state triggers triggers bipolar episodes. Right. So you have to be careful about that.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And a therapist or over, you know, someone who’s shepherding people through these processes needs to be careful about who he accepts. Yes, people need to be screened somehow.

Kylea Taylor: Yes. Well, in Holotropic, breathwork, there’s a medical form and those questions that are asked, yeah, yeah.

Rick Archer: Another note, you said it is about external versus internal locus of control? And I think I know, I think we may have already alluded to that in terms of, you know, laying down Codes of Ethics versus from within knowing what to do you know, spontaneously, because your inner guidance is that what that phrase refers to,

Kylea Taylor: yes, it is, you know, the laws, the codes, the standards of care, all the external things that are really there because somebody had challenges in the past and, and harm somebody and somebody wrote it up as a as a don’t do, don’t do this. So they’re very valuable, but then there’s the internal way that we find the right relationship in our particular situations. And we have to be careful with the internal way of navigating because we can use rationalizations and

Rick Archer: fool ourselves. Yeah, very, very true. But that comes up all too often where people just feel like they can trust their inner guidance system and it’s really actually malfunctioning and they can get really You’re crazy. I mean, you know the term Maya, or illusion. And, you know, said we’re all sort of under its influence to some extent. And one of its features, I think, is that it doesn’t let you know that you’re under its influence when you are. So you can feel like you’re completely justified in doing this or that, and yet you’re to others, if they can see you, clearly, you’re you’re way off the beam.

Kylea Taylor: That’s right. And that’s a good reason to do peer supervision to that quadrant of the Johari window where you don’t see yourself. Others do

Rick Archer: you know that saying that, that government is best, which governs least? And I think Lao Tzu said in the Tao Te Ching, that, you know, the more enlightened a society is, the less actual laws and rules it’s going to need people just spontaneously act, right? If if the kind of ambient level of consciousness into society is high. But that’s an important point there. Because if it isn’t high, you can’t just dismantle the government, as some people seem to think would be a good idea. You know, get rid of the EPA or whatever, people aren’t just going to behave properly. If we do that there needs to be laws as long as people aren’t inclined to spontaneously act in a healthy way.

Kylea Taylor: Yes. And I think we’re, I hope we’re moving in a larger sense in the right direction. With, you know, things like the me to movement as the beginning, I think we’re just at the very beginning of an ethnos change, where people are sick of all the lying. And enough people, it has to be enough people are sick of the lying and other things that are wrong greed.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Yeah. And we’ve elected a president that gives us such blatant examples of such things that we could there’s no question about it. It’s there it is. Okay, now, one more question here from narcy. Let’s see if we’ve covered this, I think we have, can students who are vulnerable, be identified through profiling by the spiritual organization to prevent any problems as a therapist? Can you comment? I mean, you mentioned the Stan Grof thing, you know, they tried to, yeah, application process? Well,

Kylea Taylor: that’s, that’s a medical forum. Yeah. Where we ask if somebody has been hospitalized, if they ever had a bipolar episode, and if they’re in therapy, currently, and if their therapist thinks this is a good idea? If so, so. But I think it’s the job of a responsible party, in this case, the spiritual leader, to take care of the vulnerable, vulnerable, vulnerable people that come Yeah, to him or her. And in the proper way, for that person. And maybe it’s this isn’t, this isn’t, this doesn’t feel like I can give you what you need right now. Maybe I need to refer you to somebody, right? And take responsibility for it not say you’re wrong for being vulnerable. This is, I can’t give you what you need. And know what I, I have to know what I can give you and what I can’t.

Rick Archer: One thing you say in your book is that every ethical misstep was taken because of a healing impulse. So let’s make that concrete. Let’s say a teacher is misbehaving sleeping with his students or something like that, or taking their money or whatever. Those are ethical missteps. How are those things? Expressions of a healing inbuilt?

Kylea Taylor: Well, the healing impulse can be either for the student or client, or it can be for oneself. And the the benefit of looking for the healing impulse is to find out why you did something so you can have compassion for yourself for doing it. And then understanding and compassion and then do self reflection about how you can avoid doing it in the future. Okay, so if you get to the point

Rick Archer: where you’re admitting that you did something wrong, exactly, which doesn’t necessarily happen right away, then you can think, Oh, my God, how could I have screwed up like that? What is it about me that I need to look at more carefully is that caused me to do that kind of thing? And so that I don’t do that kind of thing again.

Kylea Taylor: Right. And I think this brings up that there are really two categories of people who are misbehaving, as you say, and one is the predator category. People who intentionally do that they might be sociopaths, or they might be power hungry or greedy, or whatever. They might be addicted, Sex and Love Addicts and not be in recovery. So that that’s that. And they’re probably not interested in this model of self reflection at all. And those people would have to be dealt with by the justice system and by disciples or students who pursued that to make sure that they were taken out of the way of doing harm. And the other category is people who are unaware, who maybe could have not done something, if they have had some information about transference and countertransference, or their own vulnerabilities. And they’re interested in knowing about themselves, otherwise, this won’t work. And self reflection won’t work. Except I think if we change the ethnos of the culture, to expect professionals, I said this once before, but it bears repeating, expect professionals to do self reflection, and to be ethical. And if we get to that point, then more people will be willing to do self reflection because it will influence their their pocketbook.

Rick Archer: Yeah. And be not only the pocketbook, but because they’re sincerely interested in becoming better people. Yes, you know, growing spiritually, and so on, and they don’t want to be doing things that are going to thwart that.

Kylea Taylor: Hope. So, yeah.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I mean, on the one hand, when you make a statement like that, it can be seem a little discouraging, because you think, Oh, God, how can we change the culture culture is huge, and it takes so long for culture to change is like turning an ocean liner, you know, which has a strong momentum, and it’s going to take a long time to turn it. But on the other hand, we’ve seen some rather radical and almost abrupt cultural shifts, you know, in the last decade. That’s right. And so that gives one optimism.

Kylea Taylor: Yeah, and we have the internet. And that’s helping that that makes information. Travel, I think the me to movement is a really good example. I think we’re at the very beginning of this ethnos change, and the me to movement is right now focused on consequences and punishment for people. And it’s interesting, because for the people that we’ve seen, most of the people that would have been outed, in some way, and been in responsible positions would not have done self reflection, I don’t think yeah, you know, so this is that’s, that’s absolutely appropriate. It’s an absolute. No, I felt myself like, I was saying me too, privately about some small incidents in my life. And I was like, a to me too. And I was really rooting for the people that had really come out and, and done that. Yeah. So I think that’s how it begins to happen. And then we have to look at how can the people that want to change, not be not be punished, but really be encouraged to talk about it, maybe it’s in therapy, maybe it’s in peer supervision, maybe it’s publicly talk about how they made those mistakes, and model that for other people talk about how it happened for them so that other people kind of get it.

Rick Archer: It’s kind of interesting in the in the public eye, there are certain people that just sort of, you know, plead innocent and keep fighting until they go to jail, you know, like Bill Cosby or Jerry Sandusky and people like that. And others who seem very contrite guy, you know, I really screwed up. And I’m going to, I’m going to learn as much as I can from this and not be this way anymore, like Michael Cohen, and some others. Although

Kylea Taylor: there’s a, there’s a guy in it, there’s a guy in the psychedelic community who did some egregious things and has recently written an article about them and may a culpa. And a lot of people are really angry with him and said, you know, he can’t get away with this. There’s an article it’s in shukr una, an online journal about psychedelics and plant medicines. And some people are really angry with him for he they think he’s getting away with something by apologizing, but I thought the article was really thought provoking. because he talked about all the reasons why he did what he did, and apologized. And I think more of that we have to have a path for people to change.

Rick Archer: Yeah, you said that in your book. And I really liked that point. You know, I mean, if we’re just going to forever, you know, condemn those who have made mistakes, even if they are trying to help trying to change and showing contrition and Polit, apology and so on, then it’s not going to inspire a whole lot of people to try to change themselves. You know, there has to be forgiveness and compassion.

Kylea Taylor: I think there has, for a long time been a taboo among professionals, like therapists and doctors to say when they’ve done wrong or the doctors have some surgeons have some process by which they have, they talk about what didn’t work, or what mistakes they’ve made in surgery, I think. Yeah, I read that. And that Brooklyn mortality, I can’t remember his name, but

Rick Archer: But Andrew Cohen is a good example. I mean, a lot of people are still pissed at him. But, you know, after his so called downfall, you know, he really, he’s done a lot to try to, I mean, he went around and traveled around and met face to face with everyone who would be willing to meet with him whom he had wronged. And in order to apologize in person, and he’s done various kinds of therapy, and, you know, some some Ayahuasca or something and, you know, working on himself in various ways, even you know, I’ve heard he, you know, drives Uber sometimes to make ends meet is not not too proud to do that. So I had taken his interview down for a year or two, and then I when I heard that I put it back up again. So I thought, well, he’s he’s really trying and

Kylea Taylor: absolutely, yeah. I think we have to support each other in our walk through this life. We’re all going to make mistakes, various kinds, and some are more egregious than others. Yeah. But, you know, if somebody’s willing to change, there has to be redemption.

Rick Archer: The guy who wrote the Ramayana, who was named Valmiki, was a highway robbery and murder. And that was how he made his living. And he he was about to rub some sages that came along some some saints. And they said, well, before you do it, go home and check with your wife and see if she’s willing to share in this karma. And so he went home and spoke to his wife. And she said, No ways I appreciate the support, but your karma, so he like hit like a ton of bricks, and he went back to the sages and said, Help they say, man, so they, they gave him a mantra. And he sat and went into meditation. As the saying goes, he sat there for seven years and an anthill, built up around him. of alchemy. Valmiki means ant born sage, but in any case, it says in the Gita that he reviewed the greatest of all sinners, you can cross over the ocean of evil or something by by the raft of knowledge alone. So it holds out and there are many examples. I mean, saw, you know, who became the pie was thinking of Yeah, yeah, there’s examples in these traditions, that people who are real scoundrels, you know, becoming really transformed. Yeah. Okay, now, I’m going to come in any more than that before we move on? No. Okay, good. So, you sent me a graphic. And I’m going to show it on the screen now. I’m showing it on the screen. Explain this graphic to us?

Kylea Taylor: Yes, I’d love to. The book that I wrote the ethics of caring is based on this structured diagram. And it came to me through two of the great religions, Hinduism and, and Buddhism. And it’s a graphic of the chakras. And instead of the usual meaning of the chakras, I have named these life areas, that ethical missteps are often taken in. So you the the chart you’re working with

Rick Archer: the audience can see the chart right now.

Kylea Taylor: Oh, good. So if you look at it, that there’s money and 30 isn’t first life area, and then sex power. And those are the personal chakras. These are the personal issues, and that’s basically what ethics is usually all about money, sex and power. And then what is very little written about is the transpersonal shock, which I’ve named truth, I love truth, insight in oneness. And I’m looking over here because my chart is over here, I’m going to put it over here. So I’m in a fresher, that’s in front of me. So I’m looking at it. Because a lot of those issues come when we’re working with people on ordinary states of consciousness. And on either side on one side, or the personal desires and longings that pull us off the track of right relationship. Now the track of right relationship is the Shona, the line up through the center of the chakras. And I’m just calling that right relationship. But if you imagine that that line is a rubber band, and that the fears or desires, the fears on one side, or the desires on the other side are pulling off the track of right relationship kind of derailing right relationship with desire or with that fear, then you can use this chart, whenever you have a gut feeling that something isn’t right, that something is wrong in the relationship with a client or a student, and kind of look and see which life area might this be working in? And what is my longing or desire that’s happening, and what is my fear, or spiritual fear that’s happening on the other side. So that’s basically it. And then the book is organized around the centers, so that there is a chapter for each of these centers, and then self reflective questions at the end of it. And in the chapter I talk about transference and countertransference, issues that are associated with that particular life area, in the center. So it can be used for self reflection, if you’re a professional, or responsible party, or it can be used by a peer supervision group to help them identify what’s going on and talk about it. Or it can be used in formal supervision or as a complement to traditional education, ethics education. So that’s that, you know, there are other that’s that chart. But there are other elements to the model. You know, like I mentioned, the the protection, permission and connection, and I mentioned, the question, who’s this for? That question, who’s this four, by the way, can be used by anybody in everyday ethical, consider situations. You know, if you’re talking to a friend, for example, and they’re really excited about something, and they’re trying to tell you and makes you think, Oh, I have a story about that, or I have an experience about that? Well, when you ask who’s this for, you can decide whether Is this the time to tell my story? Or is it the time to really listen to my friend? So it can help in that way?

Rick Archer: That’s initially point. Yeah, it’s funny, I don’t know if, if what you just said, tells us anything about I mean, we’ll see if we can make it relevant to this interview, but my wife and I often remark about how there’s so many people who you have a conversation with him, and they’re going on and on and on about themselves, and you’re listening patiently and you’re at maybe you’re asking questions, and and, you know, it’s almost like that joke, you know, me, me, me, me, me. Okay, enough about me, what do you think about me? And then the moment you start to sort of reciprocate and say, oh, yeah, well, let me tell you what’s going on my life. Well, I gotta go. Now, you know, they space out and they just kind of not that totally lose interest. So I think that might kind of relate to the whole ethics topic in a way. Just because, you know, ethics is really about concern for others, ultimately. Yes. And perhaps we can develop ethics by culturing a genuine interest in and concern for others.

Kylea Taylor: Yes. And I think so and just everyday life, but there are also times in everyday life where we become the responsible party, like, and we really have to think about ethics and who’s this for? Like, if somebody goes in the hospital, or you visit a friend in the hospital, it focus is really on them just like as if you were a professional, you know, you wanted to be there for them. And another example is early sobriety. You know, people are all over the place in early sobriety and you have to kind of listen to them and make sure you take get your needs taken. care have in other ways?

Rick Archer: Yeah. You’re there for them, not the other way around. Exactly. They’re the needy ones.

Kylea Taylor: Yeah. And it happens that way. In a marriage, for example, when, you know, I always say, you know, we can’t both be crazy at the same time. Know, somebody has been so many asked to be the center. Yeah. So I think we, if you can go back and forth with that, and really be clear about what your role is, at any given time, and be really flexible to go back and forth fast if you need to. And it works much better.

Rick Archer: Yeah, I imagine being a professional therapist helps with that, because you, you definitely have to keep switching hats, you know, you’re there for the others, and then you go home, and perhaps, then you can be the one who someone else’s, you know, therefore it’s

Kylea Taylor: even, it’s even harder because I do therapy at home. So I have to Brother, I have to change hats going downstairs. Yeah.

Rick Archer: Alrighty, well, um, let’s, let’s have an overview. Maybe Maybe we’ll end sooner, maybe we’ll go on to the longer depending on what comes up. And if anybody wants to send in a question, this would be the time to do it. But in light of everything we’ve talked about, for the last almost hour and three quarters, you do have any sort of gaps, you’d like to fill in anything, we haven’t brought up any sort of oversight, or summary kind of big perspective points that you want to emphasize and leave people with or anything along those lines?

 

Well, I think what we’re talking about, we’ve touched on that effect, that it’s a really big change that’s happening. And your guidelines and my book are small pieces of that change. But something really big is happening. And I think what we might need is something like ethical awareness turn training, although i i hate the acronym for that. Yeah. But like, like, we had diversity training, when people really had to discover where their prejudices were, and how, what how people were different from them, and not different from them. And companies did it, they still do it. And they still do it. I mean, it’s an ongoing thing. But there was a big, there was a peak of a lot of that happened at one. And maybe that has to happen with ethical awareness, and self reflection. But I think it’s going to take a lot of people getting interested in this and, and talking about it and deciding what to do. Yeah, it’s interesting, what’s, what’s their piece of it?

Rick Archer: Right. Um, I know that with the ASI, which is really a rather small thing still, you know, we we’ve had several different webinars with people speaking and pondering these points, but usually, we only have, you know, a dozen or two people online, so it’s just a drop in the bucket. But, you know, maybe, maybe it’s a start. And, you know, it’s, I, we do feel that part of our whole purpose there is with that thing is to just kind of do our whatever we can to enliven appreciation of this in the collective consciousness and versus specifically in the collective spiritual community. It just needs to be more explicit, and, you know, more out in the open and more being pondered by people more.

Kylea Taylor: Yes. And that’s your piece of it, and your colleagues use of it. And and that’s great. And that’s what you do. But I think getting more people interested in it. Hopefully, this interview getting out there will get people interested in the dimensions of ethics and not, you know, kind of what everybody’s idea has been about it.

Rick Archer: Yeah. Yeah, and, you know, most of the people who are listening to this interview are interested in enlightenment, there has been an awakening and stuff, you know, in the, the fulfillment that state promises. And, you know, I just want to say that the whole ethical consideration is part of that it’s a it’s a feature an aspect of the kind of development that the word enlightenment or awakening signifies. So it’s sort of incumbent upon a person who’s interested in spiritual development to be interested in ethics as part of that development.

Kylea Taylor: Yeah. Yeah, I know I have one other thing I could talk about. It’s kind of like a pet thought that nobody has ever really been interested in It was, you know, in that last chapter of my book considering Holotropic breathwork that I don’t know much about Jung, but I do know that there are four functions that he talks about the thinking and feeling that are paired and sensation and intuition that are paired. And I came across this, I think it was just one or two sentences in a book by custa, yo called, knowing woman, where she talked about the fourth function being an opening to the magical realm or the unconscious. And I put that together with spiritual emergence or spiritual emergency. And I thought, I wonder if spiritual emergence and spiritual emergency come through the fourth function. And I looked at my own experience, and I know this, these functions, by the way, are tested when you take the Myers Briggs test. So I looked at my own experience, and my spiritual emergency merchants came through Kundalini, which sensation was my fourth function? So

Rick Archer: and the fourth function again, is opening to the magical realm opening to yes to the spirit of the unseen, the transcendent, whatever, yeah, call it.

Kylea Taylor: The idea is that the first function that we have the primary function is the one where we have mastery, and the one where we use most of the time to run our lives. And the fourth function we kind of don’t pay any attention to it’s undefended. It feels like it’s not us. We’re not identified with it.

Rick Archer: Most people,

Kylea Taylor: most people, right. Thank you. So anyway, so what I noticed was it this is my, this is how I do research. I just, it’s anecdotal and observe, and it’s not. But I think it would be a really great research project, since there is the Myers Briggs. And there is there are people that are having spiritual emergency. But what I noticed was that I worshipped the Kundalini energy coming through me, you know, in terms of sexual energy and other kinds of energy. And those who have thinking as a first function and feeling as a fourth function, might have an experience where that the feeling realm opens up for them, and they go, Oh, my goodness, I’m having a feeling. And I’m sad right now, you know, it’s almost divine feeling. And people who have thinking as a fourth function, might be enamored of new ideas might go back to graduate school, like maps, those kinds of things. Because their first function is sensation. They’re very concrete, normally. And what am I missing? Intuition, intuition. Intuition, as a fourth function might be kind of a psychic opening for a spiritual emergency where you’re flooded with psychic voices, or intuitions or psychic knowings. And may have trouble turning that off, or whatever. So the idea, and one of the things that I think happens is that in a spiritual emergence, the first function gets turned off. Temporarily, at least it happened to me. And I read about it in one of Young’s, I can’t remember who Mary, Mary Louise fonts or something like I don’t know her name anyway. She wrote that it has to be turned off, it’s kind of a death rebirth, the one that you use all the time has to be turned off, so that this can all come in and become part of you. And until it really integrates, you experience it as a divine happening. So I thought that was really interesting. And maybe somebody listening will think it’s interesting and do research on it, and that would be good.

Rick Archer: I think it’s interesting. I mean, when you think about it, higher consciousness or enlightenment or whatever, you know, some define it as well, they contrast it, for instance, with the ordinary states of consciousness that we experienced, like waking, dreaming and sleeping, and you have to turn off waking to experience sleeping in a way Yeah, you can’t experience them at the same time. Although the fourth state of consciousness As it’s defined in the Vedic system to Rhea, that actually means forth is it’s understood that, through repeated experience of it, it becomes a continuum that is there throughout waking, dreaming and sleeping. And so, you know what you said, Just then, you know, brought to my mind the thought that spiritual development is not about having temporary experiences, although you do have them, but for that depth of awareness that you may dip into momentarily to become a 24/7 feature of your VR experience. And so there’s an integration that takes place. Yes, you know, like you say, you couldn’t be in some extraordinary state and drive home afterwards, you know, you need to sort of get back to normal consciousness to drive home. But an enlightened person can drive a car, and yet they are in an extraordinary state by comparison with all the other people in traffic around them. It’s just that they’ve learned how to integrate, they’ve been able to integrate so as to maintain that higher consciousness in the midst of so called mundane experience.

Kylea Taylor: Yes, on the interview last week, they talked about who was the guru? I can never remember his name, even though I have his picture up. But anyway, he took a Baba named Neem Karoli. Baba, he took 1200 micrograms of LSD, nothing happened currently. Nothing happened that was outside himself anyway. So yeah, well, what happened for me was that all this stuff was happening in Korea’s and automatic postures and, and motors and everything. And I stopped being able to plan and think and I guess thinking is my second function, but I, I stopped being able to do that. And I was an executive director of an agency. And I just had to trust I had to learn to trust that I would know what to say and what to do. And whatever was coming up in my schedule would be handled. Yeah. And time how that worked out. And it worked out. It always worked out.

Rick Archer: Yeah. That’s an interesting point. I think the average person sort of feels that they are in control or tries to be, you know, yeah. And there’s a Vedic saying, which is Brahman is the charioteer, it’s actually that larger intelligence that is or should be, you know, running your life. And if you’re going to let Brahman be the charioteer, you kind of have to relinquish the reins of the jury, you know,

Kylea Taylor: I had to do that for this interview. Oh, yeah. Yeah, I really, yeah.

Rick Archer: How so? What do you mean? Well, I

 

just, I had to, you know, the phrases, give it to the guru, or, you know, I just had to say, I’m not in control here, I just have to show up and be who I am. ,

Rick Archer: Yeah. That actually, just to drag this out a little further, that actually brings us back to an ethics point. Okay, because some people say, I am not the doer. And whatever I do is just the Gunas doing it. Or it’s, you know, it’s, I don’t know, the devil made me do it or whatever. I’ve heard that as used as an alibi by spiritual teachers for doing outrageous things. So and there’s some who argue we don’t have a self and we don’t have free will. And it’s all just conditioning or DNA or whatever. So maybe you could comment on the notion that, you know, whether you agree with that, or if you disagree, how so?

Kylea Taylor: Well, I think you can fool yourself. And that’s why we need each other, you know, to give us give ourselves feedback. But I think if you’ve like in this in the case of this interview, if I done the preparation and I was nervous in the scene, I’ve never done this before and mother but then I just said I just have to be myself and but the Shakti take care of it. And I and I think that’s okay, is to let go. And as long as you know, I don’t think it was didn’t turn out very badly. Oh, it’s great.

Rick Archer: And you’ve been caring for it for decades. You know, I mean, you know, this stuff

Kylea Taylor: is that’s what people told me. Yeah, this is you.

Rick Archer: You’ve been living and breathing this stuff for a long time written a whole book about it. So you know what you’re talking about. But there is that issue that some people justify their behavior by saying that they’re I am not the doer or even that the world is Maya It doesn’t matter what you do you know, because it’s all an illusion. I mean, I hear that. Yeah. And I think that’s a real cop out. I do too. Yeah. Yeah. All right. Well, you did fine. By the way, I think this is a great and I really enjoyed talking to you. And, you know, you really, in fact, I mentioned you to Jac O’Keeffe, who was who was one of the founders of the ASI. And Jimmy, the order to your book. Oh,

Kylea Taylor: no. That’s great. Yeah. Thank you. Yeah. Yeah, it’s been great. I, you’re a great interviewer, good to talk to you.

Rick Archer: Thank you very much. Okay, so good to talk to you. And I want to thank those who have been listening or watching. If, as I said in the beginning, if this is new to you, and you want to check out previous ones, there’s a past interviews menu on batgap.com, where you can find all the previous ones categorized in various ways. If you like to listen to things while you’re driving, or cutting the grass, or whatever this exists is an audio podcast, to which you can subscribe. You can be notified by email of new interviews whenever they’re posted, if you wish, there’s a place to sign up for that. And, you know, we appreciate your financial support. If you feel like contributing to support of this. There’s a PayPal button on every page of the site. And some other things. If you look under the past, under the various menus on the site, you’ll find some little odds and ends. There’s even a ringtone for your phone if you want with the BatGap themes. My friend David Buckland put together so anyway, thanks to the audience and thank you again, Kelly. I really enjoyed my time with you.

Kylea Taylor: Me too. Thanks.

Rick Archer: Probably see you out at SAND in October.

Kylea Taylor: I think so.

Rick Archer: Good. Alright, see you then.

Kylea Taylor: Bye bye.

Rick Archer: Bye bye.