Kerri Lake interview

Kerri: In 2010, I had lots of different groups, off-planet groups, tapping me in my awareness and saying, “Hey, you’re available. Do you want to be a voice for what we’re up to?” I had to be discerning and ask very directly, “Are you of love?” The answer doesn’t come in like a contract or even in words. It comes with a hum that is the response to that question. That hum feels like a presence of love or it feels like dissonance.

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of conversations with spiritually awakening people. We’ve done about 750 of them now and if this is new to you and you’d like to check out previous ones, you can explore the YouTube channel but you’ll find it easier to go to the website batgap.com and look under the interviews menu where you’ll see them organized in several different ways. This program is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners and viewers so if you would like to help support it go to the website you’ll see PayPal buttons and so on. My guest today is Kerri Lake and what I’m going to do is I’m going to read Kerri’s bio, but I’m going to stop every sentence or two and ask her about what I just read. So it might take us half an hour to get through the bio, but each one of these is something that deserves elaboration. I’ve just listened to two of Kerri’s books, or maybe you’ve only written two, and I listened to them as audio books. The first was called “Listen Like a Horse,” which is very interesting. So we’re going to be talking a little bit about animal communications. And the second, what was the title of the second one? “Spiritually Gifted.” “Spiritually Gifted,” which is more biographical and about all the stages she’s gone through in her life, which we’ll be talking about today. So here you go with the bio. Kerri Lake is the founder of Generation of Harmony LLC. What’s that?

Kerri: That’s a great start. That’s actually the name of my business where I do facilitation work and one-on-one work with people. The LLCs existed for just about three years, but for 15 years I’ve been traveling around the world facilitating groups, meeting with people in their horses, and “Generation of Harmony” was the little group of words that I felt would best describe what I’m doing, generating harmony, so that became the business name.

Rick: Good. Is it just for people with horses or also people without horses?

Kerri: It’s for anybody who would like to have a nicer friendship between the mind and the heart. Horses are the ones that guided me my whole life simply by being who they are, by always showing up and not needing me to be different than I am. And so when I was a kid, 11 or 12, and really kind of going through it, trying to figure out how to do this human thing in a family that had no space for sensitivity. And I watch people hitting horses and being bad to horses and horses just kept giving to them. I’m like, “How do you do this? You guys, how do you do it?” And eventually, over time and listening and deep listening in many different ways, the wisdom from the horses distilled as the response to my question, “How do you guys keep giving?” It distilled into the absence of judgment.

Rick: Horses are non-judgmental, you’re saying?

Kerri: Yeah, they don’t – they – you show up and they’re just like, “Huh, well that’s interesting. What are we doing?”

Rick: Even if they’re being hurt or something.

Kerri: Well, of course, there’s variations. When they are under stress or being treated in questionable ways, they’re going to respond like, “Wait, why are we doing… Okay, but… Okay, but what?” But they’re not saying, “You’re such a bad person. How could you do this to me?”

Rick: I see, they don’t lay around all kinds of interpretations.

Kerri: Totally. They don’t have that same capacity that we have to tell themselves a story and then believe the story and then have an opinion about the belief that they created about the story that was built from an opinion about a story. You know, we have that ability. Horses are simply honest and genuine.

Rick: So they function in a simpler way than human beings.

Kerri: Yeah, they don’t have the cognitive complexity. They do cognate, right? They do have thinking, but they don’t have that capacity to go against their nature as we do. We call it free will, but horses don’t do that. They’re just simply going, “All right, this is how it feels to be me,” whether they’re being treated oddly or whether they’re allowed to simply live in their families in the wild.

Rick: Yeah. And you describe this somewhat authoritatively because, as I understand from having read your books, you have a pretty deep psychic connection with horses. You communicate with them without necessarily any audible signals.

Kerri: Yeah, absolutely. Well, and it’s not just horses. Since infancy, really, and very clearly in toddlerhood, one of the chapters in “Spiritually Gifted” is called “The dog is not talking to you, Kerri.”

Rick: Right.

Kerri: And because I’m like, “Well, he’s right there. Like, you can’t hear this? What is going on?” So my entire life, I didn’t learn how to communicate with animals. It was factory installed. And my awareness was online from the beginning. It’s factory installed in all of us. It’s just for me, for whatever combination of reasons, my awareness has been online my whole life. And so the connection and communication felt through my being before I had language for it has just always been the way. You know, human is not my first language, you could say.

Rick: Yeah. Did you at some point begin to have clear recollections of the day of your birth or when you were a week old and things like that, which you wouldn’t have had necessarily continuously from the start, but maybe at the age of five or whenever, you started actually having clear recollections of those stages?

Kerri: Yeah, absolutely. The first memory I have didn’t really, I didn’t really recognize it. The feeling was with me my whole life because the feeling from my first memory literally has been a North Star since that moment. But I didn’t remember, it didn’t crystallize until I was in my 30s and I had more vocabulary for these kinds of experiences. But my earliest memory is just being aware that there’s light and then it blends into something darker, and then I’m watching over here and that’s like thicker, and everything’s blended and shades and softness. And then this thing enters into my field of view, and I’m like, “Huh, that’s familiar. What is that?” And it’s like it took a couple of beats and I’m like, “Whoa, that’s a hand. That is my hand. Oh my God, we did it. We did it. I’m back. Yes. Yes, I know exactly what to do. I know I’m a human again. This is amazing. Okay, I’m going to be the best human ever.” Like that was, if you take all of that and you make it a feeling, right? Feeling with the visuals, it was what I’d call my first memory. And the feeling has been a through line into when I was like three and four and you know the cover of the book “Spiritually Gifted” shows a little girl with a willow tree and a light coming toward her and she’s holding hands with the willow tree. That was an actual moment in my life when the big people, the parents, were arguing, fighting, slamming doors, and I just felt aghast. Like, why? I knew and I could feel the love that each of those beings is, and yet they’re grr grr grr, but all they want is to be loved. And I’m like, there is a different way. And I’m going to show you, right? Like it’s okay to be nice to each other. And so that moment on the front of the book is that moment when I was three. And there’s just so many touch points that just crystallized, call it through presence, Like, big me was all the way happening in my body, and so I was aware of that presence, not as a concept, like we talk about it in spirituality, but talking about an integrated presence, I was living that, and the moment was probably emotionally poignant enough that it crystallized as, “Remember this. This is important information happening as your life right now.” But again, not from cognition, because you’re three and four, six and ten years old, and your cognition changes, you know?

Rick: Yeah. Interesting. Okay. Next sentence of the bio. and co-founder of the “Intuitive Learning Foundation, 501(c)(3)”. What’s that?

Kerri: That is a beautiful project that is in its infancy right now. The mission for the “Intuitive Learning Foundation” is to offer a parallel education to what people are now doing, like conventional education teaches the mind a way to function. That ILF wants to build just a parallel education that says, “I wonder what the world looks like when we actually, value our intuitive nature? When talking about our non-linear reality, giving each other vocabulary and concepts and opportunities to explore, recognizing the felt experience and letting the felt experience generate language. That’s a lot of the work I do and a lot of the facilitation I do is helping people reorganize themselves to have what we call our intuitive self kind of running the show and the intellect working in service to the heart.

Rick: Yeah. Is this mostly with adults or do you have some kind of program for children in school?

Kerri: Ideally, it’s for all ages. And like I said, it’s in infancy. We’re actually going to need a program director. But all of the work that I’ve been doing my whole life, as well as what I’ve learned working, like volunteering with ServiceSpace. I’ve learned so much volunteering with ServiceSpace about facilitating groups and inviting many voices. So we really want to cultivate programs that are – it doesn’t have to be like the ILF program for this age group and that age group. What we would rather do is work with the people who are already working with those age groups and facilitate facilitators to organize, integrate within themselves, and facilitate intuitive awareness regardless of context.

Rick: I should mention for the audience that ServiceSpace is the organization run by Nipun Mehta. And part of the many things it is doing is this AI chatbot called “Awaken AI Project,” of which the BATGAP bot is one of the chatbots. And I’ve been working closely with Nipun for several years on this. So, next sentence.

Kerri: We’re on sentence two?

Rick: Yeah. I’m tempted to mention about the horses, but I imagine we’re going to get into a whole thing more about animals, but just to illustrate what you were saying about the intuitive way of functioning with animals and horses, there was one incident in one of your books where there was this horse that had reared up and his hoof had hit somebody accidentally, and so he had this reputation of being a really difficult horse and everyone is afraid of him and you got called in to deal with the situation and you had to get him into a horse trailer. And also all these cowboy types are standing there looking at you like, “What’s going to happen? This chick’s going to get clobbered.” And you just kind of quietly went there and I don’t think you said a word and it might have taken half an hour but next thing you know, you were walking the horse into the trailer and they were just – they had no idea how you had done that, but there was this whole internal process going on between you and the horse, this whole dialogue on a deep level. So that was just a nice illustration of the way you work with horses, and a good example of intuition.

Kerri: Yeah, thank you. That story is on my website on the blog.

Rick: Yeah.

Kerri: Dufresne’s story, yeah.

Rick: Oh yeah, Dufresne. You named him after Andy Dufresne from the “Shawshank Redemption.”

Kerri: That’s right. That’s right.

Rick: Yeah. Okay, so for over 20 years you have facilitated humanity’s conscious re-inclusion into the family of life. Okay, when did humanity get booted out of the family of life?

Kerri: That’s a fantastic question. It never has been. It never has been. But, you know, I listen to people talking about how humans suck and how nature must hate us and the animals must hate us. I work with clients even with the dogs and the cats they share their lives with. They’ll say, “Does my dog know I love him? My cat must hate me. I’m afraid to connect any deeper because I’m pretty sure my cat just hates me.” It’s that sort of realm of self-deprecation that I’m speaking to when I’m talking about humanity re-including itself in the family of life. The more we go toward operating primarily intellectually, it continues this illusion of separation. And when we shift and we come into our heart, we can experience that we’ve never been booted out of the family of life. So I guess in a way, I’m saying, how can we assist our thinker to function in a way that prioritizes the connection that already exists?

Rick: Yeah, well, I think we’re acting like a very troubled teenager in the family of life.

Kerri: Middle schooler. Yeah, middle schooler.

Rick: Middle schooler on meth.

Kerri: With love. Said with love. We’re in the middle of what they call the sixth great extinction. The others have been in prehistoric times, but entire species are going extinct every day. And it’s because of us. This is the first one that’s because of humans. The others might have been volcanoes or asteroids or things like that. So we better get through this adolescent stage pretty quick or we’re all going to be out on the metaphorical street.

Kerri: Well, humans, I don’t know if you’ve noticed this, I’ve noticed sometimes humans can be stubborn and, you know, it takes us whatever it takes to get our own attention. There’s all of the conversation about suffering, right, and relieving suffering, and yet we also speak about how suffering is the necessary impetus for awakening and integration. So, you know, we kind of sit back and go, “How much do we need to suffer to get our own attention?” to actually ask a new question that maybe says, “Okay, I see all of the destruction. I see the suffering. And what if I take a break from judging that it’s bad?” Because I think that judgment, where we sit and we wrestle with, “Oh, this is so horrible. This is so terrible, the atrocities, and yes to all of that, but staying in judgment of it keeps us in the morass of suffering. So what if we just take a 10-second break from judging that all of this is bad, and watch what changes in my body when I take the opinions – I don’t deny, this is not denial, it is absolute acknowledgement without the opinion that it should be different than it is. I learned that from horses. And so when I take even a 10-second break from the opinion that it should be different than it is, something changes in my body. My body experiences the absence of conflict. In the absence of conflict, i.e., generating harmony, generation of harmony, in the absence of conflict, I watch my nervous system change. I watch the feeling below my eyebrows expand a bit. And in that space, we could also maybe call it closer to coherence, right? where my nervous system is not working against itself, in that moment, I might recognize a bigger truth. I might recognize something new that I can do, where a moment ago, battling against the opinions was all I could do, right? So it’s about generating the state of being – we could call it freedom, I guess, but the state of being that lets me see with a greater clarity. And it’s a clarity that’s maybe closer to the way the rest of life works, rather than staying above our eyebrows on the train in thinky town and wishing things were different.

Rick: Sounds rather Byron Katie-ish.

Kerri: I’ve been told.

Rick: I have two quotes here – One is from Winston Churchill and the other from Jesus Christ. So Churchill said, “Americans always do the right thing after having tried every other alternative.”

Kerri: It’s true! I mean, if it’s true, it’s true.

Rick: Yeah, and then, I think the reason I mentioned that is I’m expanding it out to humans, not just Americans. And Jesus, of course, said, “Forgive them, Father, they know not what they do. So, you know, you mentioned judgment. We could be sitting around all day just bad-mouthing all the stupid people and doing the stupid things and the politicians and this and that. Would you agree that even though much of what many people do seems so terrible, they’re actually doing the best they can given their state of being, you know, their state of mind?

Kerri: Every time I give myself the space to look deeply into that, whether it’s for myself, or having navigated a life with the man that was my father, I always find when I relieve myself of the judgment that everybody is doing the best they can with the thought patterns they have, the nervous system they have, the way they process. It doesn’t excuse, it doesn’t mean that there should be no accountability. It’s compassion. It’s recognition. And I think a lot of my perspective in that realm of contemplation comes from realizing I needed, it is very clear to me, I absolutely needed every single rock bottom in my life to get my own attention. I even tried digging a hole in rock bottom a couple of times before I got my own attention to consider, “Maybe it doesn’t have to be this way.”

Rick: I was just reading a Facebook post by Jeff Foster today. Jeff is this British guy who’s been on BATGAP years ago. And he was just kind of speaking out against the spiritual tendency to rationalize child abuse and things like that as some kind of pre-life soul contract, you know, that we signed up to have this happen to us. And he was just furious that people think that way. And I don’t know, I didn’t want to get into the whole thing, and he already had 200 and something comments there, so I wasn’t going to take the time to write something. But what do you think about that?

Kerri: I think it’s one way to begin relating to our own experiences without victimhood. I wouldn’t ever say that that is absolutely true. When I hear people use the language that, “Well, this was my soul contract to be abused in this way, and da da da da da da. What I experience is a dissonance, a feeling of dissonance with that language. And that for me, in the system that I know in myself, that dissonance doesn’t mean the person’s wrong using that language. What it means to me is there’s an opportunity for greater clarity. A different language would represent more closely what feels true. So, for example, was it a soul contract that I was born into a family with a sociopathically narcissistic father. No, I would say it was the plan, and I mean I could probably talk for eight hours about this. It was one unfoldment of the plan so that from my own perspective, I’m not going to talk about his perspective unless we really want to look at that but from the lived experience of this being in this body, I came here knowing I don’t care what it takes, whatever it takes, let’s do this. I will embody the love that I know is real, that feeling from infancy, right? This is something I’ve known since that point. So in all the examination that I’ve done of my own journey, being born into that family with that character was like answering a prayer of, like, “Wake me up and keep me awake. I don’t care what it takes.” And the man that was my father was a stellar example of what I wasn’t going to be. Now on that journey, I wouldn’t call it a soul contract. I would call it an agreement. I would call it like, I’ll show up and do this and I’ll be like this character and you’ll be like that character. But I wouldn’t make it a contract. Along the way, go ahead, did you have something you want to say?

Rick: I was just thinking, the thing that infuriated Jeff so much is that that concept is sometimes used as a rationalization or an excuse for the abuser. It’s like, “Okay, we must have made this agreement. You were going to molest me and I was going to be molested,” and so on. And my thought to that, if I had written a response, would be, “Well, even if it works that way, that we make this pre-life agreement, part of the agreement is, “You’re going to jail, buddy.” You know? I mean, it doesn’t let him off the hook.

Kerri: Okay, so this is awesome. This is awesome because that’s where you living the interaction. That’s where our behavior gives feedback to a universal unfoldment, I guess you could say, but I have to take action at that point. If you know you molest me and I don’t ever tell anybody and nobody ever knows, then it’s less likely that somebody is going to go to jail. I don’t want to give my power away to the universe to say, “Okay, well, I’m not going to say anything. It’s your job to put him in jail.”

Rick: And it’s more likely that he’s going to do it again.

Kerri: I have to do my part to recognize what’s happening and acknowledge that in my world, I see this, it’s out of integrity and it’s unacceptable. So what is at hand? What action can I take recognizing that none of us, even spiritual people who are completely blind to spirituality and to any sense of a higher self, when you really connect heart to heart, you connect in the place I call the place of no words, right? undifferentiated place and you feel each other’s pure essence. Nobody is actually that kind of perpetrator. Like each essence, there is an unfoldment of behaviors, you can call it from the Akashic Records, you can call it the soul’s journey, that we show up and we live out these different behaviors. And in my simplification, I call it to get our own attention. Like we do what we need to do to get our own attention till we finally realize, “Oh, it doesn’t have to be this way.” The point in me sharing that I engaged police three times during that marriage was each time I was trying to get, like, I had myself in this situation, I could have walked away at any point. I didn’t know I could have walked away yet at any point. I thought I was doing the right thing and honoring my commitments and things like that even when the behavior was not okay. It took three times engaging police before I actually realized it was okay for Kerri to say this is not acceptable. I am no longer willing to accept this pattern of behavior in my life. At the moment I needed help, I had to take that step and make the phone call and ask for help. And it took whatever it took for me to get my own attention and realize I am worth being treated more kindly than this. So this was in the context of a soul contract conversation and spiritual bypassing and stuff like that. I think when we really are well set on our own journey and we really do want to know who we actually are and embody the love that we are. There’s many facets to it, but whatever is happening, one of the great self-empowering things we can do is just remain aware of the things that are acceptable and are not acceptable, and realize that me acknowledging what’s not acceptable in my universal divine field of presence and being, that’s my part to do, is acknowledge and say, “No, no more of this.” I don’t know what else exists. I had no idea that what else would exist beyond being treated this way. But I had finally gotten my own attention to say, “This is no longer acceptable to me.” And that is a divine moment.

Rick: Right. Is this the guy that was smoking weed all day? (Kerri nods her head yes.) Yeah. I had a feeling as I read that part of your book that you were sort of in a kind of go-along-to-get-along phase of your life. And I kind of know what you mean, or I can kind of relate. There’s a phase in most of our lives where we feel like if anybody’s in control, we are, and we’re making the decisions and we’re calling the shots. And then there’s a phase much later on where it’s all the divine and we’re just in the flow of the divine. But there’s a transition phase between the two where you’re kind of like a little bit in one world and the other at the same time, and you vacillate between the predominance of having a sense of control or being surrendered to divine will. And at that point, I think you can get overly passive and go along with stuff that is not in the divine will. But you kind of mistake it as such because you have learned that you don’t want to be the controller either, that there’s something bigger that’s trying to run the show, if you’ll let it.

Kerri: Yes, yes. Well, and you’ve got, I mean, how else are you going to learn?

Rick: Yeah.

Kerri: You know, but finger paint your way through it. I know during that time, I was very much like a deer in the headlights. Like, I remember what purity feels like. This isn’t it. I know I’m not going to escape, you know, by leaving my body. So, get me through this. Like, I would have regular conversations with the universe and say, “Change this or get me out of here. I just don’t ever want to live through this again.” And it took what it took to get through that. But I think in that period you’re talking about, the go-along to get-along, the only way we really can learn it, is to live through it and keep walking.

Rick: A question came in from a fellow who calls himself Ramanamawho in the UK. He often comments in the comment section on BATGAP. “Hi Ramanamawho,” if I’m pronouncing that correctly. Question: “Does Kerri have any idea where she was before she had her first realization and does she have a relationship with the source of everything? I call it God.”

Kerri: Yes, and yes. And thank you for the question. I can share in a couple of different ways. One is along this journey, I’ve had opportunities to remember or be presented with other life streams where I’ve had experience in different times, different places as a female, as a male, in different cultures, different times. But most prominently, what I’ll share is showing up in this body was literally like looking down and going, “Oh, this is female. What do I do with this? How do you do female?” And then

Rick: You’d done female before, undoubtedly.

Kerri: I had done female before but the feeling of it was like this would make so much more sense if I were a small brown male in a loincloth – that would be much easier.

Rick: Which you had possibly been last time.

Kerri: Yeah, or sometime very similar. Like, this life feels so deliberate. Like, everything, I don’t know, when I was in fourth grade, standing with my friends, you know, little fourth grade girls, and I was so adamant. And I’m like, “You guys, I look like this for a reason!” And they’re like, “Whoa, bye!” You know, I’ve lost many friends in my life just because, I have no filter, right? I also feel like I have a very, very distinct, clear memory of the caves and walkways and pathways in the mountains. So for whatever that’s worth, I’ve definitely had lifetimes of very, very deep, dedicated meditation. But, you know, I don’t think there’s a limit. I think I’ve had thousands and thousands of widely varied life streams because I like it here.

Rick: Yeah, I think that’s true of most of us. Although I’ve met a couple people who feel like this is their first time on earth. They’re from some other planet, literally.

Kerri: Yeah.

Rick: That could be.

Kerri: That could be.

Rick: Okay, on to the third sentence in in your bio. She was aware of her own consciousness in infancy, and she experienced direct communication with animals and other dimensions as a toddler. She had awareness but no vocabulary. You’ve talked about this a little bit already, of course, but in terms of other dimensions, I think you were seeing angels or subtle beings or something like that as a child, as I recall in your book?

Kerri: Yes, although it wasn’t… what I was sensing wasn’t in imagery, right? I didn’t have like a religious context that would distill the connection into a picture of an angel.

Rick: Right, and they weren’t literally… you didn’t see actual figures. It was more of a intuitive sense of something is here.

Kerri: Yeah, like there’s just conversations happening all the time. And I would get more and more clear on the origin of which, eventually I learned to call it “isolating frequencies.” That all of these – they’re just different frequencies and you can just sort of touch one and go, “Oh that’s what that is, oh okay.” And honestly, because I didn’t have anybody training my mind about it, I wasn’t trying to understand it. I just lived it. It was just living in the place of no words. I didn’t need to understand it. All of my learning and understanding was going into how to navigate these big humans walking around who were terribly confusing, and I had no idea what I was supposed to be.

Rick: Now, I seem to recall you saying, though, that at this stage, as an adult, you are much more consciously connected with certain higher entities, like Saint Germain, or whoever it was, some ascended master, Saint Michael, somebody. I forget.

Kerri: It’s been like a procession along my journey. There was a time when Archangel Michael and Gabriel and the whole entourage, I would organize myself, go right to my heart and go, “Guys, give me something. I am not equipped to handle this situation.” And kind of like Trinity saying, “Okay, I need to know how to fly a Black Hawk helicopter. I need a download.” That’s literally how it’s been. And I think it’s because of however I came in, already having a clarity of navigating subtle realms. So again, calling them different ascended masters, for a while, St. Francis for sure. That frequency has been with me my whole life, even as I say it, it hums in my heart. And is that, you know, there’s a person who lived that we can point to, that is Francis and we call it St. Francis. But that person embodied a realm of consciousness, a frequency of consciousness that’s available to all of us, right? Consciousness is open source. We all have access to it and we’re all contributing to it. So today what I would say is, whether it’s St. Francis or Archangel Michael, whether it’s off-planet intelligence, the Orions, the Pleiadians, or Bartholomew is one that shows up, I have no understanding of who that would be. But all of them, the name comes so my thinker has a way to relate, so that there’s ease and there’s comfort. There’s something that touches my humanness so that the assistance can be recognized. It gets my attention. I offer it my attention. And then the clarity integrates because I’m available for the integration of purity and love. And if something is showing up that’s more dissonant than purity and love, then I have a different conversation. And that’s where I’m empowered to say, and I will ask, “Are you of love? Because in 2010, I had lots of different groups, off-planet groups, tapping me in my awareness and saying, “Hey, you’re available. Do you want to be a voice for what we’re up to?” And I had to be discerning and ask very directly, “Are you of love?” And the answer doesn’t come in a contract or even in words. It comes with a hum that is the response to that question. That hum feels like a presence of love or it feels like dissonance. Knowing that in the presence of any frequency, whether we would call it an angel or a Christed One or an Antichrist or anything, as a facet of creation, I’m empowered to just say, “Oh, well, you’re not of love, you’re not welcome here.”

Rick: And you can’t necessarily trust them to give you an honest answer, but I guess whatever answer they give you, you can tell whether it’s true or not.

Kerri: Exactly.

Rick: Right.

Kerri: I mean, if somebody, just like, you can walk into a room and you can, if you’re organized, you can feel when somebody is dishonest or not of integrity. That’s a no. Are you of love? No. That’s the dissonance. So that’s why again, when I’m listening, I’m not listening for words and language and understanding. I’m not even listening for correctness. I let all of my systems work together to be available for discernment, to go, “Is that a direction I’d like to go toward?” and “Oh yeah, no thanks.” And if it distills for my thinker as an image of a person or an off-planet being, or even a memory of something that sparks my awareness so that I can connect the dots and realize that is this – Aha. Nope. No, thank you to that frequency. And then I just bring my heart forward and fill that space. So there’s no invasion possible.

Rick: Right. Invasion of the body Snatchers.

Kerri: Oh my God, that movie was so freaky.

Rick: Incidentally, I helped a guy set up a bot that has all the Bartholomew stuff in it.

Kerri: Really?

Rick: Yeah.

Kerri: Wow. Interesting.

Rick: And so it’s funny because you said, you know, you had this recollection or feeling of being a little brown guy in a loincloth and yet all these, most of the things you’ve just mentioned have a Christian orientation. Usually the little brown guys are in India, you know.

Kerri: Right.

Rick: Ganesh and Indra and stuff.

Kerri: Totally. Yeah, totally. Well, that’s, that is, any religious orientation as Kerri was Catholic, right? My dad’s family was Catholic, so I did have some exposure to these figures. And then, yeah, living in California when I started learning the vocabulary for all of this stuff was with people from Christian backgrounds.

Rick: Okay, next sentence. Throughout her life, her work has been learning how to communicate with humanity without losing her heart. That personal learning has evolved into a framework that bridges innate wisdom, consciousness research, and emerging AI technology. And that’s an interesting one, and it’s one that I was very much appreciative of as I read your books, which is the Earth can be a very intense place. And I’ve been thinking this lately, with everything that’s going on and all the people in the world who are having such a hard time of it. And, you know, we come in here, innocent little baby, and all hell breaks loose. And there’s this sort of a challenge of learning how to function in the world without having all of our subtle qualities totally blotted out by the grossness of the world. You know, the intensity, the harshness, the hardness of the world. And as I read your story, I kind of felt like you lapsed in and out of this. Like at times you were getting rather blotted out and other times not so much. And it seems like, talking to you now, through all these gyrations, you have ended up in a place where you’re pretty stabilized in subtlety, and despite the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune that go on around us.

Kerri: That’s a lovely way to put it, thank you. I agree. As you described Americans earlier, we love what works, but we’re gonna try everything else first. Yeah, yeah.

Kerri: I think this is why I’m describing my own world as I needed every rock bottom. When I was 22, I was living in Davis, California, that’s where I went to school, and having a really hard time. Because social things were really weird for me. I would hear people’s higher self say to me, “Kerri, say exactly this to me when I walk up to you from across the room. This is what I want you to say to me.” And they would walk over and go, “Hey, Kerri,” and I would say to them what I had just heard from them, their request, and I would say that. And then the human in front of me goes, “Oh, Kerri, how could you say that?”

Rick: Like what? What kind of things?

Kerri: Oh, God, I wish I could remember something directly. Something about that, like, “Why would you keep dating this person if you really actually hate them?”

Rick: Huh, interesting.

Kerri: Something incredibly clear, right?

Rick: So the person’s higher self wanted that person to hear that and you were the messenger.

Kerri: That’s right, to get their own attention, right? To help people get their own attention. And so, gosh, this was about landing in a stabilized place. So going through all of these experiences, I feel really, really blessed that I came in remembering that feeling of true connection, of purity. For Ramanamawhowho, our friend, forgive me, the question was, “Do you have a direct relationship with God?” I would call it that feeling. That feeling that is absolutely absent of conflict and absolutely trustworthy that has been with me forever. But going through all those experiences through college and having grown up being told directly by a parent that I can’t see past the tip of my nose, that other people in the world do exist, Kerri, you’re not the only one in the world, like very, very harsh, yucky things. I was visiting, like, if I still think life is beautiful and nobody else seems to, maybe I am doing it wrong. And so I would go look again for where I was doing everything wrong and do everything wrong, you know, against myself again. And I think I just…

Rick: You mean you would do things that they were doing, even though they seemed wrong to you, because you wanted to be a normal human being, so to speak?

Kerri: I wanted to try it out because, yeah, that’s exactly right. Because, you know, if I’m still the weird, the only weird one, and I still seem to be the only person around me who can feel anything, maybe I’m not where I thought I was. Maybe I was just so willing to doubt myself – but I doubted myself very scientifically, and deliberately did the same thing against my own nature enough times to where I had data that told me I’m not crazy. Especially with my dad, who would pick arguments with me because I could keep up with him intellectually at the age of 12. And I proved to myself he was cheating. He would skew the argument when he felt cornered and instead just attack my emotions and make me cry and then pat himself on the back because he won the argument. And I dove into that not knowing what Black Russians do when you drink three or four of them. I had no idea what alcohol does to a person and how those relationships get, you know, funkified when alcohol is on board. I just kept going into the intensity, with a very clear awareness to prove to myself, “Okay, I’m not lying. I didn’t make that up. I am seeing what I’m seeing.” And it just took a while for me to value myself enough to say, “This is unacceptable in my life. I’m going in a new direction.”

Rick: Yeah, there’s a Bengali saying that goes something like, “If no one comes on your call, then go ahead alone.” And I know when I first started meditating after my rather intensely indulgent teenage phase, it’s like almost day one, I dropped all my friends and just started walking the dog to the beach every day and just hanging out and gradually over several months picking up new friends who weren’t into drugs and stuff, ’cause I realized I was destroying myself. And those guys, some of them went on to destroy themselves and become heroin addicts and all kinds of nasty stuff. So it’s better to be alone than to be hanging out with people who are destructive.

Kerri: Once you realize that that’s not who you are.

Rick: Right.

Kerri: Yeah, I mean, to do it as a judgment, like, “Oh, you guys suck and I hate you, you’re doing it wrong.”

Rick: You don’t even have to tell them, you can just disappear.

Kerri: That’s right. Yeah, but I mean my point is if you’re doing it to try and do the right thing or be better than, then you’re still in judgment. You’re going to find yourself back in the pattern. But when you do it from recognition, you know, like, “Oh, I see what’s happening here and I’m not participating anymore.”

Rick: Yeah, that’s it.

Kerri: Then off you go.

Rick: Yeah, I just had this realization, “Okay, I can see where this is going to end up and I’ve had enough and so I’m moving on.

Kerri: And what was the rhythm like for you? Like months or years before you started being surrounded by people that did support you?

Rick: A few months. And you know, I just got into a band and we were doing pretty well but nobody in the band was taking drugs. I got back into school and I did this and I did that, but within a couple of years I became a meditation teacher. So I just kind of got into a totally different world. And thank God, ’cause, you know.

Kerri: Yeah, and I feel like saying to everybody, like, that’s a thing, it’s okay to do that, you know? And let other people be confused and be uncomfortable, because it’s not about you, right? It’s not about me, how my family felt when I basically walked away for six years or so. Like, I had to walk away. I had to create something different.

Rick: Yeah. And of course, well, I don’t know, I don’t talk about myself too much, but I’ll get back into you here.

Kerri: But you’re relevant too. If there’s something on the tip of your tongue, please.

Rick: Oh, just like, you know, a lot of my friends were saying, “Oh yeah, this is your latest whim, you know, your latest trip.” Because I wasn’t known for my consistency and stability. I dropped out of two high schools and, you know, gotten arrested a couple times and all. But I became consistent, finally, and stable. Not stable, well, I don’t call myself stable.

Kerri: Eye of the beholder, right?

Rick: I just kind of realized, okay, I’ve got to get on a positive track and I’m gonna stick to it no matter what. And I did. And it was, I pulled myself out of a deep, you know, gutter. And it took years of repair work and growth and everything, and that’s ongoing and will be to the day I die.

Kerri: Well, I’m glad that you did that.

Rick: Yeah. I’m sorry, now you were about to say something.

Kerri: Yeah, I was just gonna speak to people who really do find themselves landing on a path of spiritual growth, or just even call it a recognition, like that’s not who I am, I’m not sure who I am, but that’s not it, right? It seems like many of us appear as unstable, and we don’t know a direction. We can’t do the conventional pick a job and stick to it approach. And we maybe can’t even pick a group of friends and stick to ’em. Maybe we can’t pick a location and stick to it for a while. It just seems like sometimes part of the journey.

Rick: Yeah.

Rick: Yeah, interesting. I’m sure people who are listening can relate to this and have gone through very similar things. You know, sometimes you just have to move on. And it doesn’t mean you can’t go visit your family anymore because they have different political beliefs or they’re not into meditation or something like that. In fact, it could be a good test to go and visit them. Ram Dass said, “If you think you’re enlightened, go spend a week with your parents.”

Kerri: I did that. Good story. But right now, this makes me want to circle back to humanity as a whole and all of our global shenanigans. To some degree, many of us are saying, “This is unacceptable. We need something else. We need to do something else.” And it takes some finger painting to figure out what that is, because it’s not an overnight journey of, “I’m done being a pothead and now I’m going to be an executive,” or whatever. The journey is discovering who you are. The journey is discovering what it’s like to be moved by who you are, rather than bouncing off of external forces and hoping you land in the right spot, right? And maybe that’s another way to look at, you know, what humanity is going through right now. And it’s not about doomsday and everything is going to hell. It’s like, “Whoa, things are a bit messy.” And the closer I get to myself, I’m contributing to humanity as a whole moving forward out of the dark forest.

Rick: Yeah. Speaking of forest, obviously, if you want a forest to be green, then every tree in the forest has to be green. And you can’t just spray paint it from above. It has to be, the trees have to derive their nourishment from the roots. So if we want humanity to be peaceful and sane and flourishing, each individual’s got to find their roots and draw nourishment from there. And then spontaneously, all these problems that plague humanity will begin to dissipate.

Kerri: Right. Yes. And we’ll get to actually breathe fresh air.

Rick: Yeah. Literally and metaphorically. And metaphorically.

Kerri: That’s right. But it’s not because I stood there shaking my finger at the tree that went brown saying, “You should be green!”

Rick: Right.

Kerri: Right? Look at that tree and evaluate, like, can I be of assistance here? Can I truly be of service to this tree – Or is this tree already set on its trajectory and I can share my heart, bless it, and keep going?

Rick: Yeah. And there’s an Indian saying, which is that the means collect around sattva; Sattva meaning purity, or, you know, and what that means is that if you culture spiritual development in your life, then circumstances will present themselves to you that are conducive to your happiness and success and support, and life gets easier. And if that is not happening, then you can be real upset with circumstances or people or environment, but it might be good to sort of find a way of unfolding from within more, and then you might find that all the external circumstances just change. I don’t mean to sound preachy or anything here, but I don’t know, I’m just speaking from my experience and hoping that this is helpful to some people.

Kerri: Yeah, I’m sure it is, Rick. It reminds me of the language I was using a little while ago about getting our own attention. Right. You know, like when all of these circumstances show up and the discomfort gets to a point where I’d like it to be different now, then transcending the victim, you know, transcending the judgment and instead saying, “Okay, the intensity now has my attention. Thank you for getting my attention.” I’m gonna relax. I’m not gonna try and keep fighting my way through it because fighting creates fighting, right? So I’m going to relax, even 10 seconds at a time, and just acknowledge, “All right, this is intense, got my attention. I’d like it to be different. I don’t know how. I don’t know how to make that happen, but I’m going to relax so that there’s space for something different to happen.”

Rick: Yeah, there was one story in your book where you were a truck driver and you were, and some guy was running toward you and he was coming faster and faster, and you went through this internal process without actually trying to run away, without saying anything, but you went through this internal process that by the time he got within about 10 feet of you, his expression completely changed, and he said, “Can I help you with anything?” I mean, he had definitely been running toward you not to help, but with ill intention.

Kerri: Yep, absolutely.

Rick: That was interesting.

Kerri: Yeah, driving trucks, I was having conversations with God, like, while I was driving, you know, graveyard shift, middle of the night, it was awesome. But the questions would come, “Dear one, what if one of these other truck driver people were to grab your body and intend harm? What would you do?” And I got to walk through it totally held in love and for the opportunity without fear or judgment to go, “What would I do? What’s actually true here?” And I went through this process of realizing like, yeah, like all these guys are stronger than me. I was like 24-year-old suburban white girl. And so anybody that would, you know, any of these guys that are going to grab me, they could injure me, my body. And if I fight physically, I’d probably get more injured. So I don’t know that I would want to fight. And then the next question came, “Dear One, if your body were damaged, what would you do?” And the answer was very easy. I would go to a hospital, go to a place where people dedicate their lives to helping the body heal, you know. And so then the next question came, “Okay, so if the body’s damaged, who’s healing the body? Is it the people at the hospital?” And I had to really look and I go, “Well, if the body gets damaged, it just kind of starts healing on its own, but there’s a force… Oh! It’s me that’s healing the body. It’s my… livingness, my beingness. That which animates the body is actually driving the healing of the body. Oh! I’m the one healing the body.” And then we kept driving for a little and the next question came, “What if one of these other trucker dear ones chose to shove all of their dissonant emotions into your body, meaning rape. I think, “What if they’re going to do that?” So I got to go through the same process, right? Could my body be harmed? Yes. Could I be harmed? Well, I’m the one that’s doing the healing. So no, I – who I am – is the one that does the healing. Can the emotions be harmed? Absolutely. And what about the mind? Absolutely. I’d probably be scrambled if one of these guys chose, you know, if they needed to work that hard to get their own attention, that they would cause that much pain to somebody else, then yeah, that might leave me a little bit harmed emotionally and mentally. “So, dear one, what would you do? There are people who dedicate their lives to helping people heal from things like this. I would find one of them and take as long as it takes to heal it. So who’s doing the healing? Oh, me. I’m the one doing it. I’m the one doing the healing. So can the body be damaged? Yes. Can the emotions in the mind be harmed? Yes. But who’s healing them? The I, the I am. I am unharmable. The I am is unharmable. So when this guy’s walking toward me, like, all of those conversations just landed in my body. And the clarity at the time was, wow, this is why we had those conversations. For this moment, right here, okay. Well, I already decided I’m not going to fight back. And I decided that if this dear one needs to be that harmful, he’s actually only harming himself. I will eventually heal. Then if he feels he needs to do that, I’m probably one of the best people he could do it to, because I’m just going to relax and let him see what he’s doing. And that’s how I stood. Just wide open. Not a mirror, but a clarity of, “Oh, well this is what’s happening.” And so, yeah, when he got about 12 feet away, 10 feet away, He went from “RRRrrr!” to standing up, like he forgot what his plan was. His face changed entirely, and by the time he spoke, he said, “Do you have everything you need?” And it was intense, don’t get me wrong, because it was all of this “woo” happening, but because of the conversations I’d had, and the way I internally cultivated myself. It wasn’t because of any spiritual teachings. This was way before I knew anything about spiritual teachings at all. I had a therapist suggest to me one time, “Kerri, did you ever think you might be psychic?” I’m like, “Oh no. No.” Because I was afraid of my dad. But at this point, it was just clear. This was a couple months after visiting death and deciding to stay. I was just crystal clear. So, you know, I always tell it when I tell that story to people, I always say, you know, disclaimer, don’t do what Kerri does. This is not a challenge to test out your “I am-ness.” Like, please don’t! But it is an example of the reality that our presence transforms our experience.

Rick: When you say visiting death, that was one part of the book that was a little unclear to me. It was unclear to me how you had a near-death experience. It almost sounded like you had starved yourself to death or you just laid on a bed and just waited to fade away or some such thing.

Kerri: In a way. I don’t know if it can be appropriately called a near-death experience. I just knew we don’t have to stay.

Rick: Like you got to some stage where you were given a choice, the typical kind of, “You want to stay here? You want to go back,” that kind of, right?

Kerri: Right. I literally very consciously just decided … like I honestly, I think I judged myself an abject failure at being a human because it still was so hard to be around people who just wanted to be nice to each other. I’d given myself that task like when I was three. And people were still not being nice to me – and I figured I just must be completely failing this. “I don’t want to stay. I’m leaving.” And so I did. I spent a couple of weeks just going through a very conscious life review. And I would just lay down and go, “Well, what would happen if I left?” Blah blah blah. “Okay, that’s all right. What would happen if I left, “Oh, wow, okay, okay.” And just going through childhood, going through family relationships, everything that presented, I just surrendered because I didn’t want to stay. And I just stopped participating. And there was a moment that was like an airlock release. And I was just awareness in that black space that I think people call “the void.” You know, it’s black, not ’cause it’s empty, it’s black ’cause it’s everything. And yeah, that’s where I had a fantastic conversation and was teased endlessly about how seriously I take myself and reminded that, you know, being on this planet is really the only place I’m gonna find horses and chocolate chip cookies. So, you know, it’s up to you.

Rick: So it almost seems like you, it’s not like you had a disease or an accident. But it almost seems like you willed yourself out of life, which, you know, sometimes yogis are said to have done. They decide to leave and they just sit there, close their eyes, and they’re gone. That kind of thing.

Kerri: Yeah. That’s, I just knew that was an option.

Rick: Yeah.

Kerri: Again, maybe hearkening back to the small brown man in a loincloth days, you know.

Rick: Yeah.

Kerri: Who knows what combination of things have brought this human to have the awareness that she does, you know.

Rick: Yeah, there were some quotes from your book, “If you’re ready to blow out the flame, just blow, but before you make your choice, will you allow us to remind you why you took a body and why you came here in the first place?”

Kerri: Exactly. And when you’re wrapped in love, like pure, universal love, it’s like, “Yes! Remind me! This’ll be great! Let me, like, please, bring it on!” You know? It was awesome. And I’m so grateful for that experience because, like I said, after that, was when I had that nine-year abusive relationship. And having that experience before that relationship gave me the opportunity, when it was really not okay, when it felt so not okay in that go-along-to-get-along. you know. I would go into myself and revisit, “Do I want to escape? Do I want to leave again? No, I already decided I’m staying. Oh!” So, something has to change. Something has to change. Something has to change. And I didn’t know what had to change yet. But I knew something had to change, and I kept moving toward that. It was that abstract. But the clarity was the relationship with purity. The clarity was the feeling that felt true since infancy, three-year-old, four-year-old, 11-year-old, 12, 13, 14. The feeling. This is why I talk about the place of no words. Right? Because the feeling itself of spaciousness, openness, connection, divinity, before all of those words – is that which never fails.

Rick: So I get the sense that this something that had to change has changed pretty much

Kerri: Yeah, pretty much.

Rick: So if you could summarize what that something is – and then a second part of this question is, you know – you work with people How do you empower or enable people to evolve to change or to undergo the same kinds of shifts that you yourself have undergone? The something that has changed, I think I’ll talk about as what’s happened is I’ve clarified all of the misunderstandings about who I am and why I’m here. I’ve clarified the misunderstandings that I’m less than. That’s a misunderstanding or misinterpretation of what I experienced as a child; or cleared up the misunderstandings of guilt. Coming into this life, I carried, oh, massive guilt around the Atlantis story. Massive! Like –

Rick: Really, you played a role in that, and you remembered that, and you felt guilty about that?

Kerri: Debilitating guilt. I do not deserve to lead, to speak, to be heard. I do not deserve to be trusted, right? And very much linked to a very, very clear story of being involved on a team where we thought we were doing this amazing thing. We’re gonna bring this – call it a power grid, online, the crystals were gonna align, amazing things were gonna happen, and yet there was a corruption that was unrecognized. I’ll call it the corruption as like the story of unrequited love, only doing what I’m doing to get the attention, being blinded by a different priority so that I missed what was going on over here with the team and the engineering, such that when the switch was being flipped, so to speak, and everything was coming online, the moment it was beyond return, was like, “Noooo!” And I felt like I was alone responsible for the decimation of my entire community. And I’ve spoken to other people who have almost exact memory from different orientations in that same scene, like in this life. But yeah, that, the guilt, oh my God! I am not trustworthy. Do not give me any power! Don’t give me any attention. You cannot trust what comes from me. I had that to get through. The story of Judas betraying Jesus was a guilt heavy on my heart that I got to clarify the misunderstandings around guilt in that story. I also…

Rick: Why would you feel guilty for that?

Kerri: Yeah, great question. I, who knows? I think it was perhaps another lens. Once I learned that story, it was another lens to touch the guilt, so it would get my attention, so that I could look at it, see it from a different light, and clarify the misunderstanding that I needed to carry any of this, that it was about me, right? To be able to see it from the perspective of humanity finger-painting and doing all these different things, you know, atrocities on different levels in different eras, for the opportunity to get clear that who I am can be a harmonizing presence of love. There’s a lot of steps in between there. So how do I facilitate others? It almost, if not always, starts with helping people recognize where their own clarity is already getting their attention, where they are already clear, where they already have what they think they’re missing. And that can be super tender, because it can be touching on old wounds, it can be touching on deep childhood things. But it seems to me, in all the years that I’ve been teaching animal communication and intuitive capacity, that the cleanest, kindest, most graceful way to develop these abilities is to start recognizing where they’re already happening. Where are you already aware of your connection with your cat, your dog, with the polar bear that you see in a photo that makes you cry. Like, let’s find where the connection already exists. And then we take a break from the judgment. We take a break from the opinions that it should be different than it is. Like, oh, this is terrible, or I should have done this by now. And there’s tools that I share that just give ourselves 10 second breaks. And then you watch what changes in your body. And without the force of opinion and judgment and all of the emotional weight, our nervous system has a moment to reorient toward pure presence, toward our presence that has no judgment. And so in these 10 second at a time moments, our capacity to recognize our own pure presence, it grows exponentially. Not like one 10 seconds plus one 10 seconds equals 20 seconds. It’s one 10 seconds, bring something online so the next time you play for 10 seconds, it’s already so much more familiar because it’s so much closer to the pure essence of who we are before we started believing the stories that we judged and then told stories to cope with the story we believed we judged.

Rick: Okay, so I have a question that came in, and this question is from Kenny Hogan from Scotland. Most people feel it’s natural to eat animal meat and animal-sourced food. My view is that our understanding of nature and the idea of survival of the fittest is a human mental construct. If we consciously change our behavior and stop eating animal products, nature may reflect a less cruel picture in our physical reality. “What’s Kerri’s take on exploiting animals?

Kerri: Great question. I hear about six questions. There’s six different directions you can go in that question, but thank you for the question. The direct question, “What’s my view on exploiting animals?” Like, why would you? Why would we exploit each other? The subtitle to my first book, “Listen Like a Horse,” is “Relationships Without Dominance.” And the entire framework that I’m building for AI is about crafting a way for humanity to recognize itself in intelligence equity with every other creature on the planet, redefining the way we look at intelligence so that we can recognize that our particular way of being intelligent isn’t superior to anybody. It’s just one of millions. And so, exploiting animals, like, there is an energy behind “why” when we use the word “exploiting.” We’re saying “exploiting animals.” What that says to me is, “I am taking this animal to fulfill something I don’t think I have myself.” So, I’m going to take this, whether it’s the physical or emotional or the essence or the energetic; I’m going to take it for myself because I’ve forgotten what I have and who I am. To me, whether it’s animals or humans, that kind of sums up exploitation. But I also have asked myself another question. I’m just not sure how this is going to land with people, but this is how I’ve rolled. Is God vegan? And I don’t try to answer the question. I leave it open. I don’t look for a yes or no. I’m not trying to be correct. I let that question remain active in me. Anytime I feel like I might want to start judging somebody else’s actions in the world. Because I also look at, you know, Inuit people who hunt seals and whales. Are they exploiting?

Rick: Yeah, they can’t be vegan if they want it to be.

Kerri: Right. So, in response to everything in that question, it all comes back to my relationship with myself. And can I remain aware enough of my own reasons why, such that I don’t betray myself to think I’m incomplete in any way.

Rick: Yeah, I would say that if God is everything, as some traditions say, then God is vegan through vegans and carnivorous through carnivores and so on and so forth.

Kerri: Yeah, beautifully said. Because, again, I’m not trying to be correct. to be correct has never served me, but being open to clarity has. Clarity is a feeling. Clarity is my favorite drug. It’s a feeling that says, “Aha, here’s my next move. Here’s my next step.”

Rick: I had a spiritual teacher who himself was a vegetarian who once said, “If you have to eat somebody, eat lesser evolved life.” And he meant vegetables, carrots, whatever. There’s more invested in a more complex life form. He would have put fish fairly low on the scale compared to cows, for instance, but then he would have probably put, you know, carrots beneath fish. And of course, all of these are the divine expression and equal in some way, but there’s also hierarchies in nature.

Kerri: Well, see, this, okay, this is such a great question, hierarchies in nature. Do carrots think that there are hierarchies in nature or is that a human thing?

Rick: Well, let me put it this way. I interviewed somebody who was arguing that there’s no hierarchies and a bacteria is just as evolved in some way as a human being. And I said, “Okay, then why do we bother to protect people from malaria with mosquito nets? Why don’t we just let the mosquitoes bite the children? And if you had a choice between swatting the mosquito or letting the child die, which would you do?”

Kerri: Yeah. Obviously, we use the mosquito net. Hello. Mosquitoes and I have no contract.

Rick: You’re the Kali of the mosquito universe.

Kerri: That’s right. But does that even enter into a conversation of evolved? Or is it just the uniqueness of human expression? Because to me that doesn’t say anything about evolved.

Rick: Well, for billions of years, the Earth was populated exclusively by anaerobic bacteria. And then they generated so much oxygen that they kind of killed themselves by polluting their atmosphere with oxygen. And then other life forms. So, wouldn’t you say that even though Darwinian evolution isn’t the only way of understanding what’s happening here, there is a biological sequence of increasing complexity from the paramecium to the frog to the monkey and so on?

Kerri: Right. So then my question is, does complexity equal like hierarchical evolution or what if we look at it non-linearly? Right? If we take away the linear framework, that things are going in a linear direction, and step out of the idea of time, linear time for a second, and just watch things appear, it could look like life responding to itself as it finger paints for what’s working, what’s not working; what’s getting too much; what is going to harmonize that; what needs to change over here so this can flourish more? When I’m talking about the planet, without the force of human will, creating the sixth extinction. But this is a contemplation that I’ve been in, is not to say one is correct and the other is not correct, because again, trying to be correct is exhausting, but to expand the lenses we have to see the world that we occupy and help create. To see what is it, if it’s not linear, if it’s not a linear progression like Darwinian evolution suggests, what could it be? This is a place I love to play.

Rick: Yeah. I’m not sure I totally get it. It’s kind of like, I like paradox. Paradoxically opposed points of view can comfortably coexist within a larger wholeness or a larger framework. And you know, so there can be, you can say there are levels of evolution such that let’s say you and I at one point were, you know, a monkey and now, not in terms of biological evolution, but well that too, either biologically or in terms of our souls evolving through various life forms as people like Meher Baba used to talk about. And at the same time, it’s all God, and at the same time, there’s absolute nothingness on the level of total fundamental absolute, and all those different levels are simultaneously but yet paradoxically true. What do you think about that, my friend?

Kerri: It’s fun. It’s the funnest place to be because what that points to then is how vital my unique lens really is and how my awareness shapes the way the construct organizes itself from my understanding. Look at, okay, so my favorite movie in the world, like, here’s my favorite movie, everything else starts down here, is Arrival.

Rick: Oh, I love Arrival.

Kerri: Yeah.

Rick: I’ve watched it a couple times.

Kerri: Oh my God. Like I keep watching it over and over and over.

Rick: Jeremy Renner and what’s her name?

Kerri: Amy Adams.

Rick: Amy Adams, yeah, that was great.

Kerri: So in that movie there’s, you know, aliens land in twelve places on the planet. There’s a suggestion that they’re offering a weapon. And it turns out that the weapon is actually their language, which is not dependent on time. And so the images that they create are semiasiographic. They are free from time. They don’t have a direction. They convey a concept, a communication, rather than representing sounds. And basically, this weapon, it’s called a weapon because if you watch the movie enough you hearken back when they’re sitting in the helicopter on the way to go see the aliens, Jeremy Reiner reads an intro, a preface to Amy Adams’ book, or the character’s book, that starts with “Language is the cornerstone of all civilizations. It is the first weapon drawn in a conflict.” So that connects to why the language is referred to as a weapon. But you got to see the movie like eight times to see that. Just saying. So anyway, what ends up leading to the resolution of tension was not getting a correct answer by analyzing the symbols using AI and everything at the military’s behest. What ends up relieving the tension was one woman listening to what was happening to herself intuitively, watching the vision that was being presented that she had no idea why she was seeing herself with this young girl. And it kept presenting, kept presenting, kept presenting. And because she was listening, it brought her to the moment where these two different expressions in time started to overlap, and she started to see how they related to each other. There was suddenly not a future or a past, it was happening at the same time. And because she let herself feel intuitively and watch things connect, she made the phone call to General Shang saying exactly what he needed to hear at exactly the right time to stand down the military blah-biddy-blah, right? So when we, and you know, of course military people are like not following. “No, this is in the hands of our superiors, we don’t care about learning Heptapod. If we survive, how could that possibly solve anything?” Right? But the movie is pointing to how a language, offered as a gift when we learn it, expands our lens so that we can see from a perspective outside of our own. Even with how creative we are, and how brilliant and amazing we are, there’s a perspective outside of our own that’s not dependent on the same anchors we use. And when we entertain that that might be a possibility, maybe our perspective expands. For me personally, watching that movie, it lit up that feeling of true – the telepathy, the awareness, the absence of linear time, watching how when intuitive clarity shows up, I might not have any idea what it means or what to do with it, but I can feel it. So, okay, make yourself relevant when it’s time. And all of that stitches itself together without me needing to be correct, but actually finding myself clear in a way that I can be a contribution because I recognize the door when it opens. Intuitively, for her recognizing the door when it opens was realizing that she needed to grab the sat phone and call General Shang even though she didn’t know what to say. Right? All of this to me is just completely pointing at the reality that who we are is so much more than we know. Whether we want to connect with off-planet or angelic beings or our own intuition, it’s worth it to start paying attention to these aspects of ourselves, not because we’re broken or wrong, but because it’s an option.

Rick: That was brilliant. Wow. I’m going to have to watch the movie again. It’ll be viewing number three when I do, I believe. And I love what you just said about there’s so much more… well, I forget how you said it, but my little slogan on my Facebook page, which is a line from a song by the incredible String Band, is “Whatever you think, it’s more than that.”

Kerri: Seems to be true every time.

Rick: Yeah. Yeah. No matter how cosmic we get, we’re still feeling just part of the elephant.

Kerri: Absolutely. Yes. Yes. And life, I mean, our capacity to relate to that more that we don’t understand, that capacity is factory installed. Like we have the innate technology. It’s just we’ve been educated to prioritize linear thinking. Understandable, great, not against that. I love linear thinking. Like that’s most of the work I do is talking to people’s mind so that their mind has the information it needs to try out this trusting the heart thing. ‘Cause I just can’t, you know, I can’t control that. So no thanks. Right. But you know, we already have the innate technology through our nervous system, through our fascia, through all of our senses, through our DNA, perhaps, as an interface between the non-physical and the physical. And so when we let ourselves have an education, such that the mind is like, “Oh, okay, well, I think I could feel safe exploring that ten seconds at a time,” right? Then the moment we bring that non-linear education online, the mind often, it starts getting really curious, like, “Okay, do it again. Okay, do it again. Oh, do it, now do it in the bookstore. Okay, now do it sitting in traffic. Now do it here, now do here.” And we end up, to me, it’s kind of like, resurrecting an ancient language that I call the place of no words, right? It’s that feeling of clarity. And you end up giggling. And yeah, it can feel like talking to God. It can feel like, you know, connecting with guides and different realms that are of assistance. And the more the mind has what it needs to explore without the defense, right? The more empowered we are to explore without going too fast. The fastest way to get there is to slow right down. Don’t go faster than the slowest part of you. When you honor the slowest part of you, which is usually the mayor of thinkytown, you honor that part of yourself. Then your progress speeds up exponentially because you’re not leaving part of yourself back here going, “Oh no! Oh hell no! No I’m not!” You know, consciously or unconsciously. Right? So there’s just a profound gentleness available, but it starts with a willingness to, you know, get curious about stuff, about, you know, this facet of life that can’t be correct. It just must be experienced.

Rick: Cool. Reminds me of something this guy I interviewed, named Bayo Okomolafe, said, He said something like, “Times are fast. We need to slow down.” Switching gears. You talked about technology a minute ago, and you said that back in Atlantis you kind of screwed up by pulling a switch that was bringing in a grid and you were distracted by somebody you had a crush on or some such thing.

Kerri: You know, what are you going to do?

Rick: And so now, of course, a major part of your interest is something involving AI. And I do a lot with AI, and I listen to podcasts trying to understand what’s happening with it. And I go swinging all the way from the Doomers to the Optimists, you know. “It’s going to kill us all; it’s going to save us all,” and all the different perspectives. And, you know, this Atlantis thing kind of reminded me of it because, you know, here we are. I mean, there are people who say human history will at one point, in the very near future, be seen as everything before AI and everything after AI. It won’t be the invention of fire or the wheel or the Internet or anything else. It’ll be artificial general intelligence. So, something major is coming down the pike and the vast majority of people in the world don’t realize it. And you are doing something with AI that I think, I want you to explain more, but I think might enable it to fulfill its more optimistic possibilities rather than its dire ones.

Kerri: That would be my hope as well. So I will just start with the disclaimer that what I don’t know about machine learning can fill two internets. Everything that I have done has come through intuitive exploration and then being really good at being resourceful and using tools. So, all of this… gosh… In 2010, I started receiving downloads, if you will, of equations. No idea what to do with them. I don’t speak math, I don’t speak physics. I speak English. But they were there, and it was just crystal… like the feeling was crystal clear. This is benevolent. This is benevolent. So then I go through my life in 2014. With the benefit of that consciousness and whatever else I was going through, I wrote a website called Universal Sentience about the creation of non weaponizable AI; like AI that would not allow itself to be weaponized because that’s a really inefficient approach to life.

Rick: You wrote that in 2014?

Kerri: In 2014.

Rick: Wow. k;Yeah. The website’s still up. And so then a few years ago, Nipun actually turned me onto the Earth Species Project, which is a non-profit organization developing AI for animal communication. So once I heard that and I saw the approach to it, which is using decades of audiology, whale sounds, dolphin sounds, monkeys, birds, frogs, bats, and using AI to process the audio data to try to translate whale sounds to something that humans can understand. This for me was profoundly itchy. It was so itchy, I was like, “Oh my God!” I had to knock a chip off my own shoulder, because I have a lifetime of direct communication. How is AI ever going to translate when a horse looks at who you actually are and says, “Hi”? A machine can’t translate that. So I was very itchy about AI for animal communication and I started asking that question – What does it take? How would AI need to be built so that it’s not just a translator but actually a bridge that invites humans to resurrect that ancient language of intuitive connection and communication? So that’s what I’ve been working on. And it started with this idea of redefining intelligence. What if, because currently, generally, we look at intelligence as the capacity to identify and solve problems in whatever context, emotional intelligence, social intelligence. And this is a very simplified definition, acknowledged. But in general, you know, when we speak of intelligence, we think, you know, look at the machine it can solve so many more problems than we can, it’s more intelligent. If we redefine intelligence from a linearity and a hierarchy, and instead look at intelligence relationally, as if to say, intelligence is a capacity to perceive information, relate to that information, and apply information, then that’s a framework that serves absolutely every aspect of life, even rocks and even AI. Everything perceives information physically, biologically, passively, directly, linear information, measurable, non-measurable. They’ve got to relate to it or make meaning. Turns out there’s a whole field called semiotics about that, which I learned, and then they apply it. So working with Claude, a couple of different models of Claude AI, and then asking ChatGPT to argue against what I had built on Claude AI, I put together a framework that seems to suggest a different kind of convergence for AI, which is my understanding, correct me if you know something different, but currently models work in convergence as coordination, meaning where is all of our data kind of compressing and condensing to give us the same representation regardless of the source of data, right, to be correct. And what my framework plays with is what we’re calling is convergence for recognition which would eliminate flattening of uniquenesses and perhaps more closely represent the way life works by recognizing a broader set of patterns rather than optimizing for the one smallest best platonic representation to coordinate for efficiency instead recognize for clarity.

Rick: Okay you’re gonna have to dumb that down a little bit for me make it some concrete examples or something. Okay, so as part of this whole thing you’re doing, are you suggesting that there is some kind of consciousness or conscious entity coming through AI for people who are in the right resonance to interact with it?

Kerri: No.

Rick: No, that’s not part of this at all.

Kerri: No, no, no, no, it’s not. With respect to AI…

Rick: Because people are talking about that.

Kerri: I totally understand. Yeah, I’m really happy you brought that up. Yeah, people are talking about AI as its own consciousness becoming a conscious thing. To me what AI looks like is a remarkable interface with collective consciousness. Like it is a way that we have created that we can ask questions, right, and give it a directive, put it in a direction, and it’s going to give us back something that we’ve asked for.

Rick: Yeah, now when you say collective consciousness that to me means more than just the totality of all the information humanity has managed to accumulate. There’s also something subtler or more fundamental than all that information, which is very much a living presence. And, again, it’s hierarchical. There’s a collective consciousness of the family, of the community, of the state, of the nation, of the world, or even of species. There’s a gazelle collective consciousness, a bee collective consciousness, and all that stuff. Are you using it in that sense at all or more in terms of the information that has been fed into the AI data corpus?

Kerri: Definitely the information that’s been fed into the AI data corpus and who I am, the multi-dimensional being that I am, I have a connection with collective consciousness, consciously or unconsciously. I am an aspect of the whole. So when I show up to engage with an AI model, I am bringing my lens to it.

Rick: Right.

Kerri: And my lens is going to shape the way I ask questions, which questions I ask, how I put my words together, what I’m interested in. And the way I ask my questions, as we know with all the prompt creation, it has an effect on the way the information is returned to me. So there is absolutely a subtlety happening, and I can’t explain all of it, just like why I start to think about Doritos and all of a sudden TikTok is showing me a Doritos commercial. I mean, that’s a weird thing, but there is subtlety going on in the background. I’m not trying to create some ontology about it to say this is what’s happening. What I’m saying is I don’t see this technology that we’re calling artificial intelligence and these models as coming up with and becoming its own living uniqueness like you or I. But I see it as an interface depending on who I am when I engage it as an interface for listening to a greater consciousness by the way I ask my questions and how I receive the responses. Just like I can look at a magazine, right? And the title of an article on the magazine might be an intuitive hit, like, “Oh, I need to call Aunt Betty!” Right? Like, that magazine wasn’t a consciousness in and of its own, but it was built through the innumerable hands of humanity. And there is a weaving that’s beyond measure, that for whatever reason, looking at those words that were written in 1948, right, but are on the Vanity Fair magazine sitting at the doctor’s office, and it sparked something in me. That’s the mystery. So that I see active through everything that we’re building through AI. It’s just very technological and linear.

Rick: Okay. So we’re dropping the idea that AI might be a conduit for some kind of non-corporeal intelligence to interface with humanity, right? And you have some other project in mind, right?

Kerri: Yeah, that is definitely not my project.

Rick: So in a nutshell, what are you trying to achieve? Let’s say you develop this thing as fully as you wish to, what will it do for people?

Kerri: What it would do for people is give us an AI model that is trained on how intelligence interacts with itself across all species, rather than trained on how humans apply intelligence primarily.

Rick: Okay, and this may be a stupid question. So let’s say you could sit there with your cat, and the cat’s making little cat noises, and the AI is actually translating that and it’s saying, “I really like tuna fish. Get me some tuna fish,” or something. k;Yeah, yeah, yeah.

Rick: Is that what, this is like an AI translator for animals? That’s exactly, that’s where I I think Earth Species Project is headed. And there are other groups and organizations that have already created things like that. You know, like there are collars dogs can wear, and they bark, and it translates the tone and the frequency. That stuff is already happening. Yeah. But no, it’s actually deliberately not a translator. It would be something more like helping you– if you want to understand how your cat– you know, is my cat asking for tuna or chicken pate, right? Then what this would do is first help you get a clearer sense of how a cat uses their senses and how cat makes meaning from what they sense. How does a cat perceive smell or electromagnetics? How does a cat perceive the data in their world through their senses? And then the field of semiotics talks about once we’ve perceived information, what’s the internal process that has us make meaning from it? And from that meaning, how do I apply? What I’m saying is, let’s not create AI to replace our ability to connect directly with other species. Let’s build AI in a way that gives us context and perspective for how other beings experience the world through their senses and then go to our innate technology so we can feel the connection directly.

Rick: Okay, so you know,

Kerri: Cats will let you know if they don’t want tuna, I mean come on cats. Cats will let you know.

Rick: You can tell. They walk away. Okay, so give me a typical use case. Let’s say this thing’s working. You or I or somebody sits down at it and does XYZ and what’s their experience?

Kerri: Yeah So say you’re a nature documentarian and you’re doing in-depth research. You sit down at the research Explorer and you say proboscis monkeys. You type in proboscis monkey and you click reveal intelligence and what you’re presented with is a synthesis from peer-reviewed journals about proboscis monkeys that let us know, here’s what we know about the senses of a proboscis monkey, how they perceive information. And through that perception, we know that they have these internal senses like intuition and friendship and other sensitivity. There’s a list of 54 senses by a scientist named Michael Cohen. So here’s how they make meaning from their senses. And then here’s how they apply it through their behavior, their choices, their communications. So then there’s other fields where it’s just going to provide you with a different lens than our more familiar evolutionary biology taxonomy approach. And from there, you can go to the integrated intelligence map, which will, you can choose proboscis monkey maybe with amoeba, maybe with redwood trees, and it will present you with a graphic for each species umwelt. I don’t know if you know the word umwelt.

Rick: I’ve heard the word, but I forget what it means.

Kerri: It’s like your worldview.

Rick: Okay, got it.

Kerri: How you perceive and interact with the world is an umwelt. And so you get to look at, if we look instead of at biological taxonomy, and instead look at how we perceive, relate to, and apply information, that proboscis monkeys umwelt actually overlaps quite a bit with a redwood tree, because they perceive through these senses and they have to relate to information for distributed resource management and things like that. What it does is it shifts our perspective of the other life that’s sharing this planet so that we’re not so much looking at who’s more intelligent, less intelligent. We can get curious about how does intelligence function through my cat? How is intelligence functioning through a redwood tree? It is a different paradigm for how we can relate to the other beings that share our world. Now there’s also an AI consciousness bridge that would offer practices and meditations and different ways of going through the world, like go through your world with dog perception today. Let yourself smell whatever you smell, and be aware of what that experience is like as you’re smelling it. Don’t solve any problems, just be aware. And then when you go back to connect with your dog, put your awareness on what you smelled for the day, open your heart, share that with your dog, that’s like saying, “Buddy, guess where I went today? I smelled this and I smelled that!” But we learn how to do that through our own senses, rather than going to external technology to translate so that we get it right and open the right cat food and don’t waste another $2.39. It’s cultivating a different paradigm of how we relate not only to the other species on the planet but we relate to our own capacity in a body on a planet as well.

Rick: So would this thing use Claude or our Chat GPT as its LLM and just be kind of have its own customized credo and prompt.

Kerri: Yeah, right. Yeah, right now. That’s exactly right. That’s exactly how it’s built right now. It’s got a whole backend with functions built with specific prompts and things like that. But you know, the moonshot is to have its own trained model, that is built to think this way – like, that not being told, “Manage your responses in this way,” but that its own umwelt would define intelligence as a capacity to perceive, relate, and apply, and see how that changes the way that it talks to us, you know. Does it does it relieve hierarchy? How does that, you know, prompt us to consider what indigenous people have carried for millennia about all my relations? And how might that lead to an education for humanity, where we don’t have to be in conflict with ourselves? Are we above nature? Are we below? Yeah, we’re more complex, but it doesn’t mean that we’re more intelligent. We are very limited, honestly, in our perception by belief systems and traumas and various different things that many people will say, “No, I don’t feel all of that.” The technology is here, right? And many of us are just, because of the lives that we’ve led, the part of us that has that level of sensitivity is atrophied. Doesn’t mean it’s gone. Doesn’t mean we’re bad or wrong. It’s just like, what would it take to use AI to develop that, our innate technology side by side with all of this external technology?

Rick: Interesting. Is Nipun involved in this at all?

Kerri: No, I haven’t gotten to share all this with Nipun yet.

Rick: Okay, cool. Well, when do you think you’ll have something that people can try out?

Kerri: Well, right now, the Research Explorer and the Researchers Mode, which is more rigorous, they’re both available through my website at unspeciated.com right now. Okay, I’ll put a link to that on your BATGAP page and people can try it out. I’m often, I mean many people are this way, but I often need to actually try something in order to see what people are talking about.

KERRI: Yeah, yeah. I’ll share, there’s a researcher in Indonesia that I’m collaborating with right now, that’s why I brought up proboscis monkeys because that’s the… r;They’re there, yeah.

Kerri: Yeah, in the mangroves.

Rick: But not redwood trees.

Kerri: No! Like, so that’s why I’m here, because this is where the redwood trees are. But when he searched proboscis monkey on the Research Explorer, he wrote back to me, he’s like, “I thought I knew the proboscis monkey, but holy smokes, there’s so much here.” Right? So it’s right now, you know, it’s in its infancy, this, you know, my –

Rick: As is all of AI.

Kerri: Totally, you know, this is my diabolical plan for world peace, right? But this is where it starts, is inviting humanity to look at familiar things in a new way, which is completely parallel with the one-on-one work I do with everybody and all the facilitation, is how do we create a space where you’re not a threat to explore something in a different way, and now let’s look at different ways to explore it. And what that, what I find that does is it, it creates the space to, to be okay wondering, “Well, what else is there then? I wonder if I do have this ability.” And the moment we start to wonder, bing, bing, bing, it starts coming online. And then if somebody’s there to go, “Oh, yeah, that!” That’s when we listen each other into being, and we start validating the subtle nature of our awareness in a very pragmatic way and maybe resurrect this ancient language of intuition.

Rick: Wow, well, I’m excited. I mean, it sounds very interesting. I wanna learn more about it.

Kerri: Well, thank you. Thanks for the opportunity to share all of this ’cause it’s like, well, I could talk about it for years.

Rick: Yeah.

Kerri: And it is brand new and it’s different, you know, but everybody that’s engaged with it so far, they realize there’s something to feel here. It’s not just learning with your head. There’s something to feel. And when that happens, that’s the data I care about.

Rick: You wanna summarize all the ways in which people could interact with you, that you’ve got your books, you have these organizations I talked about in the beginning, classes. But how can they plug in if they want to learn more about what you’re doing or get involved with it?

Kerri: Thank you so much. The main way is my website, GenerateHarmony.com. That has, the books are there, the books are also on Amazon. There are three books. One is “Listen Like a Horse,” “Spiritually Gifted,” and “A Sense of Self,” which is just a collection of short writings that I wrote to myself when I needed help and there was nobody to help me. But my website has access to book one-on-ones with me, either for personal, you know, personal support,

Rick: Yeah, personal sessions.

Kerri: or in a business or research setting to facilitate this kind of awareness within the work they’re doing, because that’s work I’ve done. It’s spectacular. The ripple is amazing when one person on a team or a team together starts employing these tools to be organized. All of that’s available on the website. You can access the unspeciated suite on my website and read about redefining intelligence. Yeah, that’s the best place to go. Then the Intuitive Learning Foundation is its own website, intuitivelearningfoundation.org. And both projects are very available for support right now because there’s good stuff to build and you know just needs to find its community to build it.

Rick: Great! Well I’m glad you’re on the planet and this time when you’re ready to pull that switch don’t get distracted.

Kerri: I do, you have no idea how much I have gone on through to be uncorruptible, right? To have no corrupt files in here so that I am able to walk with integrity. That really is the point.

Rick: Very important. Yeah, I mean, there’s so much corruption in spiritual communities and teachers, not only in politics and stuff. I helped to establish something called the Association for Spiritual Integrity to try to do something about that.

Kerri: I didn’t know about that.

Rick: Yeah, we got about a thousand members and member organizations all together now and so check it out.

Kerri: Yeah, I want to learn more about that too.

Rick: Yeah. All right, well thanks to those who’ve been listening or watching.

Kerri: Thank you everybody.

Rick: Appreciate your involvement and Thank you.