Rick Archer: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is a ongoing series of conversations with spiritual awake spiritually Awakening people and about spirituality and science and their interrelations. I’ve done around 670 of these now if you would like to check out, but who’s counting Irene says, I am. I’ve been saying this for years and the number keeps going up. But in any case, if you would like to check out previous ones, go to batgap.com Bat gap, and look under the past interviews menu where you see them organized in several different ways. This program is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners and viewers. So if you appreciate it and would like to help support it, there are PayPal buttons on the website. My guest today is Jude caravan PhD, had Jude on that gap previously, a few years ago, and I got to meet her in person at one of the science and non duality conferences. And I think we, you know, we were good friends, we really hit it off both in that interview and through, we had some subsequent conversations with a mathematician who lives here in town and then, you know, enjoy each other’s company at the conference. So I really liked Jude and I like what she has to say, and it’s a joy to be back together with her again. Let me read her bio just a little bit. Jude is a cosmologists, planetary healer, then futurist, she has a master’s degree in physics from Oxford University, and a doctorate in archaeology from the University of Reading in the UK, she has traveled to more than 80 countries, worked with wisdom keepers from many traditions, and as a lifelong researcher into the nature of reality. She’s the author of six books, maybe seven now, Jude seven now, okay, most recently, the story of Gaia, and a member of the evolutionary leaders circle, she lives in wheelchair England. So, in preparation for this interview, I listened to her book, The Story of Gaia, the big breath and the evolutionary journey of our conscious planet. And it covers a lot of subjects that fascinate me, which we’ll be talking about today. I also listened to the first interview that Jude and I did on BatGap. And I would recommend that anyone who enjoys this one, listen to that one, also, because we’ve covered a lot of territory. And hopefully, we won’t repeat ourselves. But even if we do, it’s worth listening to a couple of times, because there’s just so much that she comes out with. And one thing I think I will ask you to repeat yourself, Jude is in the first interview, you talked a little bit about your childhood and kind of mystical or interdimensional experiences that you’re having when you’re young and have had periodically throughout your life, it might be useful to just tell people a little bit about that, just to give them more of a context of who you are, and from what perspective you, you speak.
Jude Currivan: Thanks, Ray. And I have to say, you’re looking younger and younger than we were. Last time. It’s just great to be back with you. So thank you for the invite. Thanks. As Rick knows, I grew up in the Midlands of England, in an industrial part of England and my dad and granddad were both coal miners. So I certainly did not come from a privileged or intellectual environment, it was very grounded and yet community based upbringing. And within all of that, when I was four years old, I had my first what I might call my first experience of walking between worlds my first multi dimensional experience directly. And that was when a discarded light came into my room. And I started to clap or gently hear a voice and almost an invitation to a lifelong adventure. And that lifelong adventure continues to this day. So during that period of time, I was four years old, then I’m 70 now, it’s been over six and a half decades of exploration and curiosity, and discovery and joy at the incredible abundance and of the entire world. And it’s The world in my experience, it was not, it’s not one that we’re still taught at school. It’s a world that is multi dimensional. It’s a world of meaning, and purpose. And so everything in existence has meaning and purpose in these explorations and these direct experiences. So Rick, we can come back to that later. But I think what, for me has been so fundamental, is those adventures, those journeyings have actually always kept me open to a worldview and a perspective that’s been much greater than we’re normally. You know, we normally are experienced in our, in our societies, at school, in our families, etc. But what it’s done is it’s kept me open to follow wherever the evidence leads, I’ve been willing to do that. And of course, now, which we’ll explore and we explore, to some degree, last time we were together is that that evidence is leading us at the leading edge of science to convergence with Universal Wisdom Teachings, and in that, essentially a re unification of our perception of reality itself. And that’s what I’m so excited by, because, you know, it’s happening now we have the evidence now, and we have not had that evidence until the last few years.
Rick Archer: I’m very excited about that, too. Because I think that the old paradigm, and the materialist paradigm can take a great deal, if not most of the blame, well, those that’s the same thing, right deal. And most of the condition of the world we live in, you know, the environmental degradation and the mistreatment of millions and even billions of people. And I mean, if you if you view the world as as dead in sentient stuff, then you can do anything you want with that stuff, and take as much of it as you want. And I really think that it’s so important for humanity to wake up to the realization that you know, the entire world entire universe is alive, and in ways that you’ll be describing today. And you know, what you whatsoever you do unto the least of these you do unto me, as Jesus said, you know, and you do unto yourself. Anyway, I think that that a shift to that perspective is underway. And I think it is vital, and you are doing a lot to contribute to it.
Jude Currivan: Thank you record, I just like to say something actually, because, you know, I do appreciate, we’re where we’re at, because I will feel a collective worldview is one of materialism and separation. But if we go back 400 years, to 1623, a philosopher called Francis Bacon, who’s had a lot of blame put at his door as the father of the scientific method, in my research over many years with him and others researching his fundamental writings, that he was actually looking to integrate heaven and earth. And he was realizing it that at the time, the understanding of earth as it were, but it was based on superstition. So he came up with a scientific method that was able to be followed, not to dispel spirituality, not to get rid of the idea of wholeness, but to reveal it to reveal a deeper understanding of the divine plan. And yet, a lot of what he wrote about was Miss translated and then re translated badly. But what I’ve been doing for a number of years is really inviting us to reconsider his intention, which of course, like so many things has unintended consequences. But part of that journey over 400 years has also moved us beyond essentially superstitious based worldview into a more consensus based evidence based. It’s just that the interpretation of that created a Shiism, between sort of materiality and spirituality that was, in my view, none of his intention, nor was the Isaac Newton’s intention, who revere bacon nor was it Charles Darwin’s intention to also see so bacon as as a essentially a way show. So I think we’re now on the cusp of re interpreting those great giants, on whose shoulders we stand, but also we have so much more evidence now to indeed reveal the wholeness of the nature of reality. And it is time as you say, wholeheartedly agree we have to grow up now. We have to wake up to appreciate realize we’re inseparable. And then what does that call is to?
Rick Archer: Would you say that perhaps those who ushered in and have perpetuated a materialist worldview can’t be blamed to much because there was a lot of superstition to use the word you just used and, and other nonsense being propagated by spiritual authorities back in their day. And so they recoiled against that, and, you know, just wanted to be done with it. And it was hard for them to parse out, you know, the more genuine mystical insights from the ones propagated by dogmatists. And so they just kind of threw the whole baby out with the bathwater. And they said, Let’s just stick to the concrete stuff.
Jude Currivan: Absolutely. And I’m not blaming or shaming anyone, I think it’s absolutely part of that journey. And of course, the more you go along that journey, the more that the scientific exploration becomes a form of dogmatism and scientism itself, you know, we’re good at human beings, you know, we want this sense of certainty. And, of course, you know, this is an explorative universe, this is an evolving universe. This is an emergent universe. I just, I just, you know, I just wanted to point that out, because I think there has been a lot of blame that is unnecessary. And I also would love us to start at this point, and say, where now? And what is the evidence showing us now? And what can that mean, for us, as a species, and as a species, as sort of citizens of our planetary home, Gaia and citizens of a unified and evolving universe?
Rick Archer: Yeah. So your first book, which I read, and we talked about last time was the cosmic hologram. I don’t have a physical copy of the Gaia book here. But that’s okay. That’s more we’re going to be talking about today. And I gather that this is some kind of trilogy or sequence of books. And so how many more will there be in the sequence?
Jude Currivan: Well, the trilogy is the idea of a trilogy came to me more than 20 years ago. And I was guided that there might be the possibility of me right, and I hadn’t written anything, then, by the way, I haven’t read anything by that point. But here I was being sort of guided, you’ll write a trilogy, oh, my goodness, me. And the name came the transformation trilogy. And I was told that the first book would be to help us understand the unified nature of reality. So it will be an understanding, the second book would help us experience coming to a more deeply experienced sense of that unity. And then the third book would actually serve us, hopefully, in our conscious evolution and our embodiment of unity in our everyday lives. So the cosmic hologram was the first book, and five, six years ago, nearly now, it lays out the framework, the underpinning, of a new model of meaningfully informed and holographically manifest universe, that actually six years later, ever more evidence is pointing us in that direction. And we can come back to that. The second book, The Story of Gaia, the big breath, and the evolutionary journey of our conscious planet, is literally that it’s showing the first book showed that our universe exists and evolves as a non locally unified entity. Gaia, the story of Gaia, shows that it embodies it embeds an innate evolutionary impulse to evolve from initial simplicity to ever greater levels of complexity and individuated. And collective self enters the third book, as you’d expect, because the second books about Gaius story, humanity only arrives right at the end, because this is a 13 point 8 billion year extra ordinary journey. And it ends at just as our human ancestors were coming into existence, the third book, which I hope will be titled many voices, one heart will be the story of ours, some of our past, but very much where we are now and what we can potentially evolve to, in my perception become
Rick Archer: nice. As I was reading your latest book, I, I kept thinking, it would be really cool if this were some kind of a documentary with all sorts of, you know, beautiful graphics depicting the things you were talking about, you know, maybe the BBC could do it. Somebody, David Attenborough, you could get him to do it. But it would need a lot of computer animation, obviously, because a lot of the stuff you can’t actually film but because it is very, you know, visual, the thing it evokes a lot of images in the mind when when you read versus one of my favorite stories. This is just totally out of sequence here but um I tell the story of, of the slime mold, the oatmeal flakes and the Tokyo subway system.
Jude Currivan: You know, sometimes a book has one story, one little vignette that everybody goes, oh my god, oh my goodness, I’ve
Rick Archer: been telling that to people. You know, I’ll say to a friend, Hey, want to hear something cool about slime mold? And they say, Well,
Jude Currivan: if I have to make if you insist. Well, you know, we’ve sort of that the story of biological evolution of simplicity to complexity has been one that within the whole universal story has been essentially a story of randomness. And a story where there is no innate meaning or purpose to the whole evolutionary arc of our entire universe, I know, we’ll go back and tread some of those steps, and where consciousness somehow, after all that randomness and accidental progress somehow arises from a material brain, and only at the last steps of those, that complex journey. So for many, many years, it would have been almost unthinkable for evolutionary biologists to consider, as a single celled being will be able to do the sorts of things that a slime mold can do. And we can go back and unpick this and grow it but a slime mold, there are two types of slime molds, I have to say my favorite is called the plasmodial slime mold, which means it’s a single cell, but it’s huge. It has many different nuclei within it, but it is a single cell. And then there are other types of slime molds, which are multicellular and more like social amoeba, but the one that you’re referring to, is what’s called a plasmodial. slime mold a single celled being. And there’s a particular type that’s like the Rockstar of slime molds when it comes to experiments. And that’s called bizarre and poly Sefirot polycephalum. And in a laboratory, researchers have essentially nurtured cultured this slime mold. And what they’ve done is they’ve cultured it on a on a flat surface. And they’ve actually this is quite a few years ago now. But these experiments are ongoing, because they’re so amazing. And it turns out Who knew that the favorite food of slime molds in a laboratory are oat flakes? Yeah, oat flakes.
Rick Archer: So I had that for breakfast. Related to the slime mold,
Jude Currivan: we all are, we stand on the shoulders of giants, including these guys, these, these researchers put a slime mold in the middle of a plate, and then they put oat flakes around it. And then they they filmed what happened. And the slime mold fairly quickly. I mean, not within minutes, but a couple of hours, reached out in the credibly effective way to find the food to find the oat flakes and absorbed them. And what the researchers did, though those oat flakes were not placed randomly, they were placed to position the stations in the in the greater Metro Tokyo transport system. So they represented stations. So the slime mold was able to show the most effective routes between all the stations in Tokyo. And when that film a
Rick Archer: well formed little tendrils between little tendrils,
Jude Currivan: brings its membrane out and absorbs it exactly that. So it doesn’t break the membrane of its single cell. But it does, it moves it out very intelligently. And when they overlaid this process of the slime molds, then realized it was not just the most effective way of connecting stations. But it actually replicated the work that the engineers and the Japanese engineers have done with supercomputers over a long time to create the exact same patterns, except the slime molds did it a lot cheaper, and a lot quicker, and didn’t take any benefit, you know, didn’t take other than their oat flakes, you know, didn’t require any thank yous of any sort. But that sort of approach that sort of complexity, that ability of complex behavior of informational flows and processes, and guidance and complex behavior is now being used in many, many other complex systems, which would otherwise require enormous amounts and a long time of supercomputer analytics.
Rick Archer: So you’re saying they actually still they’re using slime molds to work out patterns like that.
Jude Currivan: Yep, that’s very cool.
Rick Archer: And the reason I like cuz that kind of thing I’m sure you do too, is that, you know, I’ve debated with friends about whether there’s any kind of fundamental intelligence, orchestrating the universe, and, you know, a lot of them even even people with meditation background and so on. Don’t really buy into it. And and, you know, you hear people saying things like the the somehow the universe is this accidental random thing and, and you know, oh yes, but there are laws of nature. But if we don’t know how those came about, but if you grant us that one miracle that the laws of nature somehow arose, we can explain everything, and you don’t need to resort to, you know, some deep intelligence, like, pervading everything. And that kind of argument. Have you ever had actual friendly debates with with people like that? And how do you respond to them?
Jude Currivan: I don’t bother to be honest, because I feel that if somebody comes from that perception, I’m not trying to change anybody’s mind. I’m not trying to change anybody’s worldview, what I am doing is sharing my own experiences, and latterly, in both the cosmic hologram. And now in the story of Gaia. I’m revealing the evidence at all scales of existence and across numerous fields of research, that show that the appearance of our universe does in fact, emerge from deeper levels of causation, and discarnate intelligence, as many scientific pioneers have understood. Albert Einstein, Max Planck, Schrodinger, John wheel, Archibald Wheeler, so I’m just showing the evidence. And in these two books, there is the evidence of something like 20 or 30,000, researchers across many, many different fields of research, or showing the same thing. And just to show how this direction of travel is moving. I wrote the cosmic hologram back in 2017. After it went to press, there were two experiments that were essentially supporting it at cosmological scales that I wasn’t able to put in that book, but I have been able to refer to in the story of Gaia. One was in 2017, where the same mathematical informational patterns that we find from the scales of atoms on up through planetary scale solar system scales, galactic scales, the same fractal patterning was discovered in what’s called the cosmic microwave background, which is the relic radiation leftover from a very early epoch of the universe that fills the hole of space. And that was a coalition of five universities back in in 2017. In 2018, and 2017, and 2018, a research group at MIT, were able to show that one of the predictions and one of the requirements for quantum physics, which is that the entire universe is non locally unified, they were able again to experimentally show that by into what’s called entangling photons of light in the laboratory was Starlight from 600 light years away from light from a very, very active powerful galactic center called Quasar 12 point 2 billion years away. So these are sort of that scale. But to just add to that, this year, the Nobel Prize for physics was given to three researchers Alan aspect, Anton Salinger, and John closer, all of who have been pioneers in this non-local Quantum unification at far, far, far greater scales than the quantum. And latterly, and you may know this. Two physicists called Professor Brian Cox, who’s very well known in the UK, and Professor Jeff Forshaw, his colleague, have just bought a book out in October of this year, called black holes. And in that right at the end of black holes, and I speak to about this because it’s central to what I write about in the cosmic hologram. And it’s central to our understanding of what we call the holographic universe model that they say right at the end, they don’t know how it happens, but they now realize that the appearance of space and time and this energy of matter. In other words, the appearance of our universe, arises from deeper, non physical levels of causation, which is exactly what I wrote about six years ago, and what I continue to write about in the story of God, so this direction, regardless of what your friends have said, doesn’t matter. It doesn’t matter what they say. It does matter what we say. This is not about trying to persuade somebody, it’s actually to follow the evidence wherever it leads.
Rick Archer: You Yeah, that’s interesting. I’ve often heard people say that, you know, a lot of modern thinking is at least 100 years out of date, because, you know, Einstein and Max Planck and all those guys 100 years ago or more, came out with an understanding of the universe that many materialistic thinking people haven’t grasped yet or just ignore.
Jude Currivan: I think that’s right. I mean, when we look back, we look back to the sort of the mechanistic science of the late 19th century, before the discoveries and the evidence of, of Albert Einstein and spacetime, relativity and of the quantum physicists. And you know, there was an absolute, oh, my goodness, what was being shown here, and some of the pioneering scientists realized, the best insight into what they were discovering. And the evidence that was coming forward, was actually 1000s of years old. And a number of them went back primarily to the Vedic tradition of ancient India, and the Upanishads. And the Bhagavad Gita has, and the Upanishads are commentaries on the nature of reality. And there’s one particular that you should have via Upanishad, which was my comfort when I was young, because what I’ve been taught about sighs, boy, no real recollection, recollection. So what I was experiencing, but this ancient wisdom did, and it talks about mind and consciousness aren’t something we have, they are literally what we in the whole world are. And this is what the evidence is now, showing and converging with such universal wisdom teaches spirituality. But the point is, that there was such a, such an absolute, you know, refutation of the evidence, that it was almost like a knee jerk reaction to stay in the mechanistic mindset, the materialistic separatist mindset of the earlier era of late 19th century physics. And that’s pretty much been the mainstream perspective ever since we move forward in terms of technologies. But we’ve not moved forward with this deeper perception of, of the underlying fundamental nature of reality itself until now.
Rick Archer: Well, there wasn’t any actual refutation of the evidence of quantum mechanics and relativity, but perhaps there was a ignoring of it or something. You know, let’s get on with the business of making money or whatever. But this is not absolutely.
Jude Currivan: Right. But it was that point of it wasn’t the refutation of evidence, because that’s been what’s rock solid? Absolutely. But it’s the implication of the evidence. Right, right. The deeper implication of what the evidence was revealing to us
Rick Archer: when you were talking a minute ago about the the galaxy that was, you know, 13 billion light years away, and then some photons in the lab and the complementarity was it
Jude Currivan: between the word entanglement entanglement, right,
Rick Archer: yeah, I think what you’re getting at that might be worth explaining it to the audience is that experiments with that sort of thing have shown that there is a instantaneous and and deep correlation or connection between far distant particles, which, you know, far exceed the capabilities of the speed of light, like, you know, something happens here. And on the other side of the galaxy, it happens instantaneously there. And so, that kind of suggests an underlying field that is beyond all relative constraints, such as the speed of light that underlies and interconnects everything is that, how did I do trying to explain that did great
Jude Currivan: You did great. I mean, basically, I think back in the day, quantum physicists are realizing that for quantum physics to work at all, our entire universe did need to be non what’s called non local unified in the way you’ve, you’ve described so far in Unit, our entire universe exists and evolves as a unified entity, where it knows itself simultaneously without any limitation. But that was a real dilemma, even to the geniuses around at that time, because the quantum physics physicists were revealing this as an underlying requirement for what they were discovering. And yet Albert Einstein hated the idea he called it spooky action at a distance, because he was realizing that within space time there is a speed limit. I mean, he began by realizing the genius that is Albert Einstein, big And when he was 16 years old, and he followed a beam of light. And he realized that no matter how fast he went, he could never catch up that beam of light. And over many years and with mathematical precision, he was able to show that space and time at each of themselves relative to an observer. But he went a step further. And this is what a lot of folks forget, he realized that the space and time had to be conjoined into something he called space time. That was not then relative it was in variant. And that is why we can talk about a universe that began 13 point 8 billion years ago, where we then space time, what we call space time, the appearance of space time, that there is a cosmic speed limit, and that is the speed of light. Otherwise, we would have no notion of past and present unfolding to a future, we’d have no notion of causality within our universe. And yet, it’s an and and. And so now we’re realizing that within the appearance of our universe of space, time, and energy matter, the speed of light, indeed, is a cosmic speed limit. Otherwise, we wouldn’t be having this conversation. And yet, and our entire universe, from that first moment, 13 point 8 billion years ago, today and onward, exists and evolves as a non local unified entity. So think of it as a balloon, very, very simply, as a balloon, begin to blow that balloon up 13 point 8 billion years ago, continue to blow it up. So as that balloon expands, its surface knows itself in its entirety. But within the balloon, the appearance of that inner reality of that balloon, that’s where space time and energy matter, its appearance play out. And it’s the that inner manifestation and appearance, where there is a speed limit, and there needs to be otherwise the laws of physics couldn’t work, we would not be having this conversation. And yet, our universe is a great thought, which is what we’re discovering, in the minds of the cosmos, exists and evolves, as such a non local, unified, intelligent, living whole entity.
Rick Archer: I learned to not too long ago, using your balloon analogy, that I mean, most a lot of people have heard the idea that if you draw dots on the balloon to represent galaxies, let’s say and then you blow up the balloon, then all the dots are moving away from each other. But from the perspective of any one, that it’s staying the still all the other ones are moving away from it. And the interesting thing is that, you know, this, that the balloon can, or rather, the universe can inflate at such a rate that relative to one another, the galaxies can actually be exceeding the speed of light at a certain point. But it’s not that they are because nothing can it’s that space itself is expanding, and space, apparently, is. Or maybe it’s spacetime that’s expanding. And it’s it’s so fundamental that it can exceed the speed of light that I get that one right or did but I think you’d feel free to correct me. Am I good?
Jude Currivan: Well, first of all, this idea of a very, very rapid inflation, what’s called inflation epoch at the beginning of our universe, was a hypothesis to try and explain away the level of fine tuning the level of homogeneity, the level of uniformity at the foundations of our universe. Despite decades of decades of trying, we found no evidence of such an epoch occurred, it might have done, but it was almost a hypothesis that’s put in place to resolve a non existent problem. And the non existent problem was non existent, because the cosmology of the time had not yet got to an understanding of a holographic universe. In the decades since, and the and the increasing ever increasing evidence that the appearance of our universe essentially is a holographic projection, an informational projection holographically manifest with its entirety in its wholeness. You don’t need you don’t actually need an Inflationary Epoch to create as it were, that commonality, that uniformity, that homogeneity. So as you
Rick Archer: know, galaxies are all rushing away from each other for the most part aside from local All situations in Andromeda, right?
Jude Currivan: No, absolutely. But again, go back go back 13 point 8 billion years, go back to a universe that came into being at its smallest scale, its simplest scale, not in what we tend to call the Big Bang. We know it wasn’t big. But when we use the word bang, we it implies chaos, it implies some form of explosion. We know that our universe began in that first moment, incredibly fine tuned. And at its very, very lowest and simplest form of order and simplicity. So instead of a big bang, our universe came into being as the first moment more as an ongoing big breath. And ever since as space has expanded, and time has flowed forward, that big breath and that if you like that the bubble, the the balloon of our universe has expanded. Now, I take your point around the I take your point around the galaxies moving apart within space times, indeed they are. But this model shows us why that happens, and how our universe both exists and evolves. And that comes from the study of black holes. And some years ago, in was in researching what happens when a large star collapses into a black hole, it comes to the end of its life, it can’t sustain itself anymore, it’s used up its nuclear fuel, it gravitationally collapses. And the gravitational collapse is so powerful, that it keeps on collapsing, even when light itself can’t escape. And that point, that threshold, where light itself can’t escape is called a black hole’s event horizon. And just as the original Star is a spherical body, the event horizon encompasses a spherical black hole. So the question was, what happens to all the information of that star? Because if it’s lost, then we have to throw quantum physics out the door. The understanding is that no, it’s not lost. But something even more incredible is at play here. Because when the analysis was done, it was realized that that information of that star is not proportional to the volume of that black hole, but proportional to its surface area of its event horizon. And that gave the understanding for some clever folks. That’s exactly what happens in a hologram. Because in a hologram, when we bounce a beam of light of a three dimensional object, as we would see it, what happens is the light that bounces back brings lots of information about that object. That information is then arrayed as a pattern on a two dimensional plate. And when light is beamed through that two dimensional pattern of information, a three dimensional hologram of that original object is formed. So the holographic principle, which I mentioned that Brian Cox and Jeff foreshore have been writing about, suggests that the boundary of what we call space time, that expanding boundary of space from the first moment of this ongoing big breath, and the continuation of time from past to present and onward, itself is not that the information stays the same, and therefore expanded. But more and more and more information comes into being on that holographic boundary. It’s called the Becca Stein bound. And the pixelation is the pixelation of reality itself. And the scale of it. It’s called the Planck scale. And the scale of it is as small as to an atom as an atom is the entire universe. So it’s not like the galaxies coming apart is that more and more and more and more in cosmic information? Universal information is being arrayed on this boundary of what we call space time. And then that all comes together. In the work I’ve done with thermodynamics to show how that happens, and how simple it is.
Rick Archer: So if, if the universe has a whole graphic projection, and most people by now know how holographs work, or you know, you have a piece of film and it has a squiggly pattern on it, you shine a laser through it and then you see an image of a jar person or whatever was encoded into the film. If the universe is a holographic projection, what is the film in this case?
Jude Currivan: The film is essentially cosmic mind.
Rick Archer: Okay, that’s what I was thinking you were gonna say.
Jude Currivan: As As Einstein understood, you know, Einstein talked about the delusion of consciousness and the appearance of separation is not our fundamental reality. But we are microcosmic co creators of an intelligent living and evolving a multi dimensional universe that way back 100 years ago, Sir James jeans, talked of as being a great thought, rather great thing you’re where mind and consciousness aren’t something we have. But literally what we and the whole world are. And what we’re now seeing, and the evidence is showing us literally all scales of existence, and many, many, many different areas of research, not just of what we might have had to call the natural world, which I don’t like using because it still has this sense of somehow separation. But within collective human behaviors, you know, the internet and and an ecosystem have exactly the same patterning exactly the same relational, dynamic patterning within them. You know, I think we spoke last time, it’s it’s an example that I think is really brings, it helps a lot of people that the analysis of earthquakes, that you know, that their periodicity, their frequency, and their destructive power, when analyzed across hundreds and hundreds of earthquakes show there’s no such thing as an average earthquake, there’s just a relationship between their destructive power frequency, when analysis of human conflicts is undertaken, which has been from World Wars and centuries of conflicts to insurgencies in Iraq and Afghanistan, exactly the same relationship between destructive power, in this case fatalities, human fatalities, and periodicity are frequency of those conflicts, exactly the same relationship.
Rick Archer: So does that mean that the more frequent they are the the less destructive they are? Or there’s an
Jude Currivan: inverse proportion? So the more destructive, the less frequent? And so in
Rick Archer: other words, real world wars are less common than lots of little skirmishes?
Jude Currivan: Yeah, but it doesn’t mean that that there’s an average conflict, it just means if you take the whole of the of the analysis from the very, very large scale destructions to the small, they’re all arrayed along this, this straight line called a power law.
Rick Archer: And what is the significance of this to our conversation?
Jude Currivan: Because it shows patenting it shows, patenting and and meaningful informational patenting, because what we, what we also realize going back to the appearance of our universe, is this appearance, whatever it may be, the entirety of our universe, emerges from deeper levels of intelligent causation. So underlying, an ecosystem underlying a collective consciousness is what’s called an attractor basin of data points of informational points, that together, form an archetype form a complex system for a collective worldview.
Rick Archer: And you and I have a mutual friend who I won’t name because he’s not here to defend himself, but he seems to be arguing these days, that somehow God or intelligence is coming into being as the universe evolves. And my rebuttal is, yes, if you want to speak of its manifest, manifest phase or quality or expression, but, but there must be a fundamental ocean of intelligence to begin with, for the universe to evolve out of because it is at every stage of its emergence. It displays incredible orderliness, and, and fine tuning, as you said earlier, and if that fundamental field of intelligence work there be like pulling the universe pulling itself up by its own bootstraps. So what do you say to that? That discussion?
Jude Currivan: I’m on Team Archer.
Rick Archer: Okay, good. Yeah.
Jude Currivan: Exactly. Because the other thing we see, of course, is it’s not just that the laws of physics which are the basic algorithms, information instructions, of how our universe exists, and evolves, are so relational dynamically, amazingly fine tuned, a relational, that our universe embodies an impulse to evolve from simplicity to complexity. And you see this I mean, I’m often asked, well, where’s the evidence for the purpose? Or we can go into that, because what you see, reading the story of Gaia especially, is from that beginning with the laws of physics, which we can now restate three laws of thermodynamics or three laws of informational dynamics or info dynamics. We see how it’s like it’s like a Rubik’s Cube only much simpler how our universe does this. But that intelligence is embodied embedded at every moment, throughout that journey of simplicity to complexity. So yes, it’s that manifestation, but the innate cosmic intelligence was there from the get go is there in every moment will be throughout this great thought form of the minds of the cosmos, to the very end of its lifecycle. And more and more, we’re realizing that it is a finite universe within an infinite and eternal, cosmic plenum,
Rick Archer: which jives with the ancient Vedic perspective, which you mentioned earlier. And I think they even use the word breath, you know that the universe is sort of breathed out. Or sometimes they use the the analogy or metaphor of a spider with spinning a web and then drawing the web back into itself. So you know, if we want to think of it in terms of God, if we want to use that term, properly understood in this context of our conversation, you know, God has a resting phase, then an expressive phase, then a resting phase, and then an expressive phase. But the fundamental cosmic mind, is there all along, it doesn’t sort of get created a new at any point?
Jude Currivan: Absolutely. The thing that I would say is, is that and I very deliberately used the, the word for big breasts in the in the, in the title, the story of God. Because, you know, as I said earlier, right, you know, it didn’t start in a big bang, in that sort of chaos. It was that first moment of this incredible, ordered marvelous outflowing. Big breath. And of course, the same word for breath. Is is Prana is for spirit. So very much of that, I think the difference we now realize in Cosman, logically, is that there’s entire cycle, a finite life cycle of our universe. And the reason we can say that is met many fold. But one key factor is that there are five key constants, or measures of our universe, they’re fundamental. And there They two are named after Max Planck. And they’re measures of energy and matter, space, and time, and temperature. Okay. What I’ve done in terms of restating and expanding three laws of thermodynamics to three laws of information dynamics, is the first law restates the appearance of energy matter as being in your information, expressing itself as quantized energy matter, which stays the same throughout the whole of our universes lifecycle. The second law is about space time. And the second law shows how our universe evolves, as we were mentioning about the, the outbreath, of the ancient tradition of Brahman, where there’s ever more information able to be expressed through the expanding of space and the flowing of time. But the third one, apart from any other evidence is lots of evidence for a university of finite thought is that temperate in a in a contained system, such as we cosmologically now know ours to be temperature is what’s called inversely proportional to information content. So our universe began with its lowest level of informational content is highest temperature, a space has expanded ever since some time, slow forward, the temperature has dropped as the information content has increased. So now, we’re at a point where only 2.7 degrees above absolute zero. So we have this cycle, this beautiful cycle of a universe that is existing and evolving existing to evolve from simplicity to complexity, so time will come when that bubble, and this is a metaphor, of course, but that bubble will come to the end of its thought form. And then release its wisdom, its experience, back into the cosmic plenum,
Rick Archer: for another thing, quote, St. Teresa of Avila, who said, it appears that the Lord Himself is on the journey. And you know, I often think of the universe as this big evolutionary machine, not machine but you know, this big, big evolutionary process, which is actually a learning process or experience for God for God for cosmic mind, as well as for all of us individuals who are just shards or are individuated expressions of cosmic mind.
Jude Currivan: I love that and that’s exactly it. You know, I talk about as being microcosmic co creators because one of the things that I think is really, really powerful now, is that we, you know, right at the beginning, we said that, you know, we’re on this edge, we’ve come this journey. We’ve come through a journey of perceived separation of materiality. We’re literally waking up to RE remember We’re inseparable, and yet unity is not uniformity, unity is radical diversity. So everything in existence has meaning and evolution potential. So here we are. 13 point years 13 point 8 billion years in as a human species living on our beloved planetary home Gaia, which we treated very badly, because of that misperception of the integral nature of reality, beginning to wake up and at the bow wave of our universe’s ongoing evolutionary impulse, it seems to me that we’re being invited now to wake up, you know, as Ken Wilber and others say, to to grow up to clean up because of the trauma embedded by perception of separation, to show up to link up and lift up, we are in the most incredible moment, this time, it seems to me of existential threat is evolutionary opportunity.
Rick Archer: Yes, I agree. And there’s so many things that come together, I mean, just like the invention of the internet, if without which we couldn’t be having this conversation, but with which the knowledge of, you know spirituality, has propagated around the world at lightning speed. Whereas in the past, you know, some spiritual teacher could only walk so far in his sandals and a lifetime. And then it would take, you know, hundreds and 1000s of years for his message to get around. And by the time it got around, it was totally distorted. So, I almost see that the internet, among other things, as part of the evolutionary drama that’s going on as an essential part of the evolutionary drama that’s ushering us in to a more enlightened age.
Jude Currivan: And walking in her sandals, of course,
Rick Archer: of her sandals, of course, or flip flops or whatever,
Jude Currivan: I’ll flip flops or in my case, very pointed, very uncomfortable shoes, but no longer no longer while they’re off, I tell you, there are absolutely and I do feel that all of this is part of this ongoing meaning actually an evolutionary purpose, because the other part of our communications technologies is that they are based on digitized information. And so you know, when we when we when we when we now understand that our universe, the manifestation of the appearance of our universe, is is not just from is meaningful in hyphen in a dash formation, meaningfully informed, and holographically manifested, you know, just as our English language has 26 letters, and of themselves, you know, ABC, etc, have no innate meaning, we make meaning when we bring those letters together in words and sentences and all the rest of it. And when we’re having this conversation, what I’m speaking to, is being translated into long columns of ones and zeros digitized information being squirted over to where you are re translated into English. And vice versa with your perspective. So what this is about is our universe does it from cosmic mind using only two letters, not the 26. All the meaning that is our universe, arises from the Planck scale, pixelation of such meaningful information that then accumulates as atoms and molecules and planets and people and plants and all of the appearance of our universe is that innate, meaningfully informed and holographically manifested, and I agree with you this is this is where somebody says, well, where’s God? God is all. God, there is no God, there’s
Rick Archer: no holes in God, if God is every little thing, I think the Gospel of Thomas or something says you crack crack open a rock, and they’re there I am, you know?
Jude Currivan: Because God is reality. Yeah, yeah. Got his reality.
Rick Archer: And there’s evidence for that. That’s not just a belief, I mean, look at any little go out to empty space someplace and analyze it if you could, and you’d find, you know, laws of nature functioning there and, you know, gamma rays whizzing through and all kinds of things that evidence, vast intelligence.
Jude Currivan: Absolutely. And this is really what the both the book that what the cosmic hologram talks about. But the cosmic hologram is an understanding of this, what I really felt in writing the story of Gaia, I often say I feel the story of Gaia wrote me, because the reverence that I have always felt for our universe, and our our planetary home, literally took me on a journey through this book, to become even greater levels of reverence and reverence and awe and wonder at this incredible intelligence but beyond that, the benevolence I talk about this but really being the Science of Love. It’s the cosmology of, you know emergent, living, conscious universe with all the the multi dimensionality that the ancient spiritual seekers and shamans have always delved into, we now have that opportunity has shut ourselves off from this incredible adventure. We can now open ourselves or eight, remember, we’re inseparable, but even more, to realize that we have incredible opportunities to engage with and communicate with and learn from the profound wisdom of our planetary home and our entire universe. It’s literally an invitation, it seems to me for us to do that.
Rick Archer: One argument that some people use against the existence of God or cosmic mind and so on, you just mentioned benevolence, is, you know, what about the Holocaust? What about babies with cancer, you know, all all the horrible things that happen? And, you know, I always come back with Well, it’s the universe is vast, and it I don’t see how universe could could just consist without pairs of opposites. So if there’s going to be hot, there’s going to be cold, if there’s going to be heavy, there’s going to be light, fast, slow, and good, bad. And everything sort of balances out. But there have to be these polarities. What would What do you think about that?
Jude Currivan: Well, certainly, you know, see ancient, Tao and eat chain talks about in the beginning is the one that was is the one becomes two, the two becomes three, and from the 310 1000 things are born. So that whole journey of simplicity to complexity and ever greater levels of individuation is one of evolutionary arcs of experiences of, of births of lives of deaths and ongoing. And I would say that the ancient traditions don’t talk about good or bad, because that’s something that’s almost like a human judge. Yeah,
Rick Archer: you’re right, you’re
Jude Currivan: right imposition on the universe. And by benevolence, I’m not talking about sentimentality, I’m talking about relationship. I’m talking about universals is innately related, where everything is an interdependent relationship with everything else. And so you know, 514 million years ago, we had on Gaia, an evolutionary arc that went from what was called the edgier carbon era, to the Cambrian era. And the eddy current era was the first animals to exist and evolve on in Gaia as biosphere and what I describe as guy’s Gaia sphere, because it’s completely interconnected. And it was almost like the garden of edia, Cara, as it’s sometimes called, because everybody was very friendly with everybody. But nothing was happening. There was no real evolution, it was quite static. And so time came at the end of the educar run, where there was a major environmental change, you could say it was catastrophic. But from that break down, there was incredible assemblage, a very quick, a very wonderful assemblage of greater levels of complexity. But that complexity then began to differentiate between predators and prey. And there’s almost like a biological arms race. Yeah, who could who could come up with teeth and claws, and who could hide fastest, but he actually drove increasing complexity, and therefore individuation, and therefore self awareness. And it goes back to your point about the, you know, the balancing of the soul. And it seems to me that in our journey, our journey, there is life and there is death, and there is rebirth. And there is grief. And there is trauma. The problem is within a worldview of materialism, and separation. We don’t undertake the rites of passage, the community rites of passage that goes through those processes, and release them. We hold on to, instead of trauma, which is a natural part of the ways the ebbs and flows of life. We identify ourselves with it. And when we identify ourselves with it, we continue to better it and I think that’s where we’ve been. And the evidence is shows we no longer need to do that. So when somebody asked me about the Holocaust, I say God was the goddess everywhere. How could it not be? But we are after 13 point 8 billion years of evolution are a species that is self aware. That is a species that has choice. What do we choose in that environment and I’ve been to Auschwitz in that environment we chose Death, we chose all of the things that go with a perception of separation, just as conflict, it seems to me is a natural outcome in justices, the imbalances between men and women. All of these are attributes of a mindset and a worldview of materialism separation, we now have the evidence that showing us at that worldview, that mindset is fundamentally wrong. without blame, or shame, or judgment, to literally wake up from the illusion of separation, that’s become a nightmare. So this is what I feel this moment of choice, our collective moment of choice is about it doesn’t mean that there will not be sadness. You know, I think the Queen, our queen, who’s just passed over, after 911. And she said something about grief is the price we pay for love.
Rick Archer: Well, after 911, our president at the time, George W. Bush said, go shopping.
Jude Currivan: There you go. But you know, grief, and you’re working with so many healers and myself as as working as a healer for many years. You know, it’s when we honor the sadness, honor, the grief, and in our own way, and supported by community, supported by each other. And I’ve, you know, I’ve had the privilege of working with a being with many, many indigenous communities. And our indigenous brothers and sisters understand how to honor and to shake out grief and move on into the joy. That is our natural state of being, but that joy to really appreciate it. Again, going back to what you were saying, there is that compliment where it’s not joyful, because if it wasn’t sad, how could we really no joy?
Rick Archer: Yeah. And I think, you know, on this topic, it’s important to be able to cultivate a God’s eye view of things, which is, you know, as Krishna says, in the Gita, it says, creatures are unmanifest in the beginning manifest in the middle state and on manifest again, at the end, what grief is there in this? And, you know, I think we’ve all heard enough nd e stories and reincarnation research and all that many of us anyway, to be quite convinced that nobody dies. And, you know, realistically, if you naturally grieve if your child dies or something, but there’s ultimately nothing more, nothing more tragic about death than there is about changing your clothes into a fresh pair, fresh and fresh outfit.
Jude Currivan: Absolutely, absolutely. And when we understand that, when we understand that, indeed, there is no separation, and that separation isn’t just within space time, it’s beyond space time. It’s the multidimensionality of a living, evolving, gloriously multi dimensional conscious universe.
Rick Archer: Yeah. In the back of my mind, I keep kicking around the idea of talking to you more about cosmological fine tuning the cause, you can explain what that is. I I’ll just keep my question that short, and then we can discuss it a little bit.
Jude Currivan: Okay, well, what we realized is going back to the very beginning of space time, is that first of all, that you know that the universe began its most lowest informational, and most ordered state. And that means that it’s entropy, which I’ve now restated as as a constant, because entropy, actually is about the microstates, the energetic microstates of a system. When we expand from energy and matter to information, we realize that the entropy, the entropy of our universe, which increases from that very first moment ever since, is more is better determined as in trippy, where entropy is the informational content of our universe. So we’re now talking about the second law of what I call INFO dynamics. But the point of all of this is that it all comes together. And the way it comes together is an incredibly fine tuned beginning. You know, the constants, you know, the very few, probably six is the general perception, six constants, where the laws of physics come together in ways that are perfectly balanced and allow our universe not just to exist, but to evolve. And those constants if they were different from what they are, by an estimate, at least, this is the low cut estimate of one in something like let me see now 1000 trillion trillion than our universal To be able to even get go, that level of fine tuning. And the and the five Planck constants, that of themselves are fundamentals of energy matter, space, time and temperature, their interrelationships. And the relationships, the laws of physics are, as Einstein said, as simple as they can be, but no simpler for our universe exists and evolve. And it’s that level of fine tuning, which is just so extraordinary, you know, our space geometrically has to be exactly flat, which our best cosmological evidence says it is, for e to equal MC squared. It all comes together. And when, you know a lot of a lot of scientists are really good at complicating things. Because as a human tray, we all do it. But Einstein said the universe is as simple as it can be, but no simpler to undertake its purpose. And I wholeheartedly agree with that. And that’s what I write about in the cosmic hologram and the story of Gaia.
Rick Archer: Yeah, and the reason I find this interesting is that it again, suggests some kind of fundamental intelligence orchestrating things. And as I understand it, you know, rather than in order to avoid that conclusion, some cosmologists or scientists come up with the multiverse theory that there are just an infinite number of practic rectally of universes. And we just happen to have lucked out in the one to be in the one where everything was so fine tuned as it is, you know, one in a trillion trillion or something, whatever you just said, and the others, the others are all duds. Nor are duds to a great, great degree. And, you know, my hunch is that, you know, if there are multiple universes, they are also abundant with life and expressing orderliness and intelligence and evolution, and so on. Because that’s the way God rolls.
Jude Currivan: That’s the way God rolls I wholeheartedly agree with you, I mean, the multiverse as a premise. You know, there’s, there’s a track in science where you can start with a sort of premise, you can move to a hypothesis, you can move on, and you know, you get more and more evidence, and it becomes in theory, and then if you get even more evidence, and it’s just about irrefutable, then it becomes a law. Now, in physics, relativity is a theory, even with 100 years of evidence absolutely hasn’t departed from it by an iota. Quantum Theory is still a theory, even though again, more than 100 years of evidence has proven it every single time. But there are three laws of physics that are so fundamental, that there’s no debate, one, and these are the laws of thermodynamics. And these are the three laws that I’ve restated as laws of info dynamics. And they’re the laws then that can show how quantum theory how relativity theory comes together to co create a meaningful, intelligent evolutionary universe. This is, you know, if anything, this is God’s plan, this is how it happens. So the multiverse may indeed, there may be indeed other universes, we don’t know there’s a likelihood there may well be, we’ve got some little smidgens of possibility, that point is in that direction. But I agree with you, they too, are likely to be meaningful and purposeful in whatever way they manifest cosmic intelligence. But the other part of the multiverse that was latched on to was something called Parallel Universes have parallel universes really is that that basis of everything’s random. So wherever this ostensible fine tuning is at the beginning of our universe, and ongoing, because it’s embedded within our entire universe, can only be random cannot be accidental, and therefore, there must be at least that many other universes, but the way that that was purported to happen is that every quantum choice spawns another universe. Now, there’s something called Occam’s razor, which is very, very helpful in science, which says go with the simplest, because that was almost always the case. And if there’s any level of complexity beyond the simplest, there’s a good reason for it. So instead of going through this, this rigmarole of parallel universes spouting off everywhere with no you know, no notion and intelligence no notion of meaning or purpose and no notion of any basis In in an understanding of reality or any evidence, I mean, what I’m speaking of, is profoundly fundamentally evidence based. The idea of parallel universes has no evidence what so ever to support it.
Rick Archer: It’s just a Hail Mary pass to try to avoid, you know, conclusions that you draw.
Jude Currivan: Yeah. Yeah.
Rick Archer: Well is an example of a theory that is generally considered sacrosanct, and you’re considered to be a kook if you question it. Let’s, let’s talk a little bit about Darwin’s theory of evolution. And you know, what is it called? Evolution through random mutation you discuss, discuss that in your book.
Jude Currivan: What Einstein, as far as I know, actually never talked about random
Rick Archer: mutation. No, Darwin, you mean? Sorry,
Jude Currivan: Seva, Darwin, they might Thank you. It’s been a long day. In my research, and understanding, Darwin never spoke about mutations being random. He was an excellent observational scientist. And so he did not take any speculation beyond what the observation revealed to him. So he talked about variability. He talked about a relationship between a collection of community of organisms and further into his life. He also recognized in the market and perspective of the significance of, of the environment. So he was for me, he’s a hero, you might notice behind me, there’s a bust of him on my shelf,
Rick Archer: can’t quite see I’ve got the Buddha up on my shelf and a Christmas tree. But anyway,
Jude Currivan: I’ll start with the the batteries, the the launch of the story of Gaia, we chose to be in a very special place. And it was where in 1860, was the first ever debate on Darwinian Darwinian evolution. And we held it there, because what I’m writing about in the story of Gaia, is not a repudiation of Darwin. But it is saying that those that followed him, which, you know, came from this perspective of materialism, and separation, really took what he came up with so brilliantly, and in my view, distorted it dramatically, not just for the evolution of biology, but for socialism, and sociality, and human behaviors. And as a result, Neo Darwinism, which is just Darwinism with genetics, carried on in many ways, that perception of materialism is separation. And in the story of Gaia, I right now about the evidence that random mutations do not drive biological evolution, what we find is that every festival DNA is not just a read only template, it is a read write template, and therefore it allows variability but it allows responses, it allows you to call or responses to signals to have many sorts of the environment there’s far more and into relationality with an organism and its surroundings, and those surroundings and that organism to retain coherence are in constant dialogue with at cellular levels, with a read write DNA, and what happens is that when the signal is carried when the informational signal is carried to the nucleus of a cell, and the DNA is zipped open, to be, you know, to be communicated with, there tends to be an error rate of one in 10,000 times. But between that error rate, that initial error rate, and when all as the RNA and the other processes that go on within the cell all the time to create what’s called amino acids to create proteins from which the body continues to be built and retain its coherence. That error rate is reduced one in 10,000 to less than one in a billion. In other words, the cell the body goes to incredible efforts to get rid of the possibility of random mutations and those that get through pretty much end in a literal dead point. Either sterility or Odysseys. So organisms, biological organisms are not driven by random mutations. They’re driven by intelligent informational flows, processes and relationships at all levels of complexity.
Rick Archer: Good. Thank you. So let’s see what haven’t we covered? If if something pops to mind that you want to talk about that we haven’t talked about? Let me know but I have some notes here. I want to make sure we’re getting through them all. birth is a living being the very title of your book, we can talk about that a little bit.
Jude Currivan: The universe that all the evidence is showing us is a conscious and therefore living, non-local unified being does exist and evolves from simplicity to complexity as, as an all pervasive as a unity that’s all pervaded by consciousness. And so my definition of living correlates with that of the ancient understanding. And many, you know, many pioneering researchers now have a living planet within a living universe. And you know, at the end of the book, what I do is I invite people through all this journey of relationship, to consider that instead of terming, ourselves, humans, we might term ourselves guidance, because the difference is, my dear friend, Michael Linfield taught me is that as human beings, our planetary home is outside of us. But as guidance, our planetary hug guy lives within us, and we live within our planetary home. It’s a it’s a much more fundamentally intimate, joy, joyful, meaningful, loving relationship.
Rick Archer: So when we refer to Gaia, or the earth as a living being, are we saying that it is, in the same way that, you know, it’s a living being consisting of billions of cells, if you count all the beings such as us, and animals and insects and everything else, as cells within Gaia? Just as we are a living being comprised of trillions of cells? And are you saying that just as we have our own consciousness and individuality and and, you know, willfulness and all that stuff, Gaia is a being in the in the very same way with its own consciousness, it could be communicating with, let’s say, other beings, if other planets elsewhere are beings or it could be doing all kinds of things, probably beyond our comprehension, because it would be a much vaster, more intelligent and more highly evolved being than we are. Am I thinking along the same lines as you there are what
Jude Currivan: you are, right? Yes, but I’d expand the concept of living beyond biological life.
Rick Archer: Oh, yeah. I mean, I would say the sun is a living being and obviously, no biological life there.
Jude Currivan: Absolutely. So when we talk about when I talk about Gaia, in our entire universe is exactly as you’ve just described. So I talk about the Gaia sphere, because what I write about is how guys, rocks and minerals suggests fear, her waters, her hydrosphere, her air atmosphere, and her biological communities, her biosphere are all intimately related, and evolutionary correlated. So for the whole four and a half billion years, of her being a planetary home, she has the entirety of her guys sphere, has ebbed, has flowed, has gone through cycles. And I write in detail about this in the story of God, because it’s so extraordinary, is just so incredibly and meaningfully guided and informed and evolutionary, purposeful. And of course, I also write as part of the book that our you know, the biological, her biological children didn’t emerge just on her planetary home, in interstellar clouds of gas and dust before our planetary system even came into being all of the forerunners the harbingers of biological life. DNA RNA, or what’s known as lipids and sugars and amino acids, as well as masses of ice, bathed in ultraviolet light, shepherded by by vetted fields. And we’ve seen these gorgeous clouds, you know, in fantastic images from the Hubble telescope, and now from James Webb telescope, but these are the birthing clouds of planetary systems. These are our the crash in a way from which we emerge, and yet, they are an ongoing crash that goes back to the very beginning. 13 point 8 billion years ago, you know, the water in our bodies is only a few moments younger than our entire universe. The story of our universe is Our Story. Multi dimensionally consciously living. This is our heritage. This is our lineage. This is our potential opportunity.
Rick Archer: Another thing that I think it’s important to bring in when we talk about Gaia as a living being or, you know, when I say In the sun as a living being, which would ordinarily sound absurd is that, you know, there are subtler realms of creation which science has no inkling of, and which you began experiencing as a, as a child and, and, you know, living beings in those subtler realms who are, you know, communicating with you, and so on. And so, you know, when we think of Gaia, as a living being, we shouldn’t just think of its oceans and animals and atmosphere and all that stuff. There, it would have a subtle body just as we have subtle bodies, and the sun would have a subtle body and that soul body could be a very highly conscious beings. Then, you know, Vedic and other ancient traditions understood this, they call the sun Surya. And they thought of it as a god, which seems quaint and mythological. But what they’re really saying is, it’s this powerful impulse of intelligence that just happens to be embodied in a giant fusion reaction.
Jude Currivan: Absolutely, absolutely. And, you know, that’s really when writing the story of Gaia, and the cosmic hologram is the evidence for all of this, and really seeing this profoundly intelligent, wise. And ultimately, you know, benevolent, not in a nautilus sentimentality, but a wholeness, that, you know, invites all of its journey from simplicity to complexity, ever greater levels of individuated, self awareness, collective interdependence, into being, you know, and, you know, perhaps to complete our time today with here, and now, here, and now, because, you know, over this last year, I’ve been involved with CO writing what’s called a unitive narrative with some colleagues or friends or colleagues, as a real underpinning of framing, of this understanding, but based on founded on all of this evidence, and it’s wonderful to see that there is this potentiality now, to move forward together. So for example, the last week or so, after 77 years, the United Nations have formally adopted what’s called a major NGO, thematic cluster, which is a formal body, able to advise and important to all sorts of things globally. And it’s based on this unitive narrative and this unitive understanding of the story of Gaia, and the cosmic hologram for the first time, in 77 years, the United Nations believes that this evidence is so powerful, that there’s a realization that unity isn’t an ideal, it’s real. And it’s my dear friend, Dr. Joni, Carly, who has been instrumental, after decades on decades of working with the UN, and we’ve got at least 16 NGOs and many more wanting to come together with this talks about unity is our existential reality. And because the evidence is now here, I sense that, you know, this coming year with so many other things that, you know, I’m being involved with education, transformational leadership, so so much more that, you know, we could we can truly cut and lift up together, the empowered by this understanding and inspired by its experience, it’s both.
Rick Archer: How would you like how would you, let’s just play around with envisioning the future. So how would you like to see the world looking in 100 years or 200 years or however far out to the future you’d care to project? You know, what would be your most optimistic projection of the world if it really takes, if collectively we take to heart the kinds of things that you have been talking about in your books?
Jude Currivan: I totally say, first of all, I don’t do projection. What I’ve what I’ve, in my own journey over all these years, how I serve, how I sense I can serve best is by tuning and aligning with what is flowing through us with the universal evolutionary flow and purpose. So I talk about showing up and getting out of the way.
Rick Archer: So you don’t have a sense of where it’s going. Exactly.
Jude Currivan: I don’t need to know. Okay, what I trust what I do trust, the boss of my soul, and from the bottom of my heart, is that if we instead have tried, we’re really good. I try to impose and judge and control and if I’ve learned anything, from nearly 70 years of exploration is the futility of trying to do that. And when we when I have tried to do that is it’s limited me actually, when I’ve opened myself up to the potential a possibility of our universe has great flow of evolutionary impulse. It’s been the most incredible magical, wonderful journeys. I’ve tried to hold on to it. I’ve tried to either hold on to the past or a situation or whatever. I don’t try anymore.
Rick Archer: Yeah, and I don’t think anybody has ever successfully done it. I mean, you know, people like Jules Verne predicted some things which came to pass, and, and others, but nobody, from even 50 years ago, much less 150 or something has come close to predicting the kind of world that we now have. So you know, God is a better scriptwriter than we are, I guess you could
Jude Currivan: say. I mean, there is there is a lot of sense to say, let go and let God Right, right. But in that sense of a universal, profound intelligence and evolutionary purpose and flow. So I, it’s so much for me, it’s so much more joyous, heart opening, to just align myself or to learn to attune. So what I’ve learned to do, I hope, is to hear and listen. And that means, you know, trusting my intuition, it means paying attention to synchronicities. It means breathing in and going quiet. It means actively not trying to impose my will, but actually offer myself an open to greater will unlock greater love and wholeness that over many, many years, I know. We are all parts of
Rick Archer: Yeah. Well, if I could predict one thing for the future, hopefully it will be a future at least this is a wish that it’ll be a future where large, much larger percentages of people function the way you just described yourself as functioning, you know, which would essentially mean human life in attunement with in collaboration with divine intelligence or cosmic mind. And there’s somewhere in the Vedas that says Brahman is the charioteer, you know, like, get out of the way and let Brahman drive.
Jude Currivan: Absolutely. I wholeheartedly agree. And it’s an incredible ride. Yes, it was phenomenal, incredible, joyous. Ride it out. And it just feels to me that this is the invitation for us as a species now, this is our collective moment of choice. You know, this is our potential to I heard a lovely term the other day, I’ve just done a an online series for a wonderful organization called humanity’s team. And in it, I call it our conscious revolution, our transformational journey to whole being and belonging. But I talk about how instead of us consciously evolving, we consciously are revolt. Yeah, it’s a revolution. It’s much more than a few little steps. And what I love is the conscious we volution is us doing it together. So I just feel this an incredible moment with all the all the all the challenges, but I truly believe we will be offered this incredible opportunity by the entirety of our universe, our planetary hunger.
Rick Archer: Yeah, we’re one giant intelligent slime mold.
Jude Currivan: Yes.
Rick Archer: Go for the oatmeal.
Jude Currivan: Go for that oatmeal.
Rick Archer: Oh, boy. Well, thanks so much, dude. They haven’t been having sand conferences later, but lately, but I hope we get a chance to run into each other in person again. It was such a delight, you know, hanging out with you a little bit back then. And I I follow your work. I see you popping up in the scientific and medical network and Galileo commission and things like that. And, and so keep it up. And we’ll we’ll keep on truckin and we’ll do what we can right
Jude Currivan: to. Absolutely, it. We’ll do it together.
Rick Archer: We’ll do it together. Yes. Absolutely. Great. Well, thanks. And thanks to those who’ve been listening or watching. And my next interview will be with a fella named Anthony peak, you know, Anthony peak dude. He’s written a bunch of interesting books. So anyway, I won’t get into the details, but I’ll be talking to him next and onward we go. So see you for the next one.