John Speer Interview

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump, the weekly show in which we have a conversation with someone who has had a spiritual awakening. My name is Rick Archer, and my guest tonight is John Speer. And in a minute, John will introduce himself and give us a little biography of his life and interests. But before he does that, I would like to make a few brief comments, as I sometimes do. I just want to say that this show is– well, first of all, I want to say that they’re practicing hair in the next room, and you might hear “Age of Aquarius” coming through in the background. But aside from that, this show is totally unscripted. I don’t plan out questions ahead of time. I generally don’t have any extensive conversation with my guests about what we’re going to talk about. It’s extemporaneous. We just wing it. And on the other side of it, it is unedited. After the show has been taped, we slap titles on at the beginning and end, and basically air it as it is, without any editing. And that being the case, I often think back to things I have said in certain interviews. And I wish I had phrased them differently. My statements might be misconstrued. And last week in particular, I was making some comments about Ramana Maharshi and Nisargadatta Maharaj and Ramesh Balsakar, which I stopped myself because what I was saying was coming out sounding derogatory, at least to my ear. And I just want to say that I had no intention of sounding that way, and I have the utmost respect for those teachers. And what I was actually trying to say is that I found better words for it in the subsequent week, because I’ve been listening to an interview series called “The Great Integral Awakening,” hosted by a man named Craig Hamilton. And his contention, and that of some of the people he’s studied under, is that not only the expression of enlightenment evolves as the culture evolves from 2,000 years ago or whatever to the present, but the actual experience of enlightenment evolves because we are evolving beings. And our ability to fathom and reflect the spiritual or deeper realities that we’ve been discussing is actually in a continual state of development. And that’s actually what I was trying to say when I was making comments about those teachers, and didn’t mean anything derogatory. So having covered my bases on that, I’d like to get to tonight’s interview and introduce our guest, John Speer. And I know a little bit about John, but I think I’ll just ask him to tell us about whatever he considers relevant and significant about his life, what you do, where you’re from, your interests, your family, all that kind of stuff. Sure.

John: First of all, I want to say into the camera that this is for my children, for Eve, Matt, Bethany, because I feel like I want them to hear this part of me. I want them to see in detail what this was.

Rick: I’ll give you a DVD when we’re done.

John: Thank you.

Rick: Take it home.

John: Yeah, right. Anyway, so and the other thing is that I never considered what happened or what has been happening to me in my spiritual evolution to be a spiritual awakening. I mean, that’s a word that I just haven’t ever used. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn’t. But I do know that what has happened to me from time to time has been I’ve had some really wonderful experiences for which I’m very, very grateful, because they’ve helped me to understand my life, understand, give more– what do you call that? More meaning to things that have happened in my life.

Rick: Good.

John: And the kids know some of this, but I’ve never told it in an interview situation where I could kind of put it together. I’m sure most of your interviewees have felt the same way.

Rick: For the most part. I mean, some people have been very quiet about it. There’s a mutual friend of ours who more or less came out of the closet here about a month ago when I interviewed him, he’d never really talked about it in public. And he decided that now was the time, and he wanted to explain what had happened to him.

John: Excellent. And when you asked me to do this, I was thinking, I wasn’t even sure what it meant. But anyway, to just tell you something about myself, because my kids know me, but maybe you don’t know this part about my life. But I was born in East Cleveland, Ohio, right near where the Mormon Kirtland Temple is. And it’s in the hospital there, but my father was teaching in a school in Lakewood, Ohio, near Cleveland, the west side of Cleveland. And then that’s where I lived most of my life in Ohio until I became, first of all– well, actually, I should go– you can see this is a script, because I’m going to be going all around trying to figure out where this is going, because it does unfold a little. So if I talk too much, I say, move it.

Rick: I might interject a question here and there.

John: Move it along.

Rick: We’ve got a caller.

John: Right. But from the very earliest age, I knew that I wanted to know what my life was about. I wanted to know– I, of course, wouldn’t have called it consciousness back then when I was a kid, but I wanted to know what life was. What did it mean to be alive? And I would think about this to the point of terror.

Rick: At what age?

John: About nine. Before that, but the terror attacks started coming about nine years old. And what would happen was– I say terror attacks. I’ll explain what it was. And most of you, if you are watching this and have had any experiences like this, you’ll probably realize they were much more innocent than what I thought they were as a child. But when I was a child, and my father took us golfing– I caddied for my father, who went golfing one day with his friends. And I walked into the clubhouse, and I started thinking this thought. I thought over and over again. And the thought was just, am I really here? Or it’s either, am I really here? Or is this really happening? And happening meaning, am I alive, really? I didn’t really think that way.

Rick: Or is it all a dream?

John: Yeah, well, is it all a dream? No, actually, I thought, is this really happening? I mean, I thought, like right now, I wouldn’t do it. Something may happen, I don’t know. But I would think, is this really happening? Is this really happening? Am I really here? Is this happening? I would do that. And then all of a sudden, I was looking at the towels. And all of a sudden, the towels were– I mean, I wasn’t there. And it wasn’t happening. And yet, it was happening. And I knew that it was happening. And I thought, I’d better get back to where it’s really happening, or I’m going to– so I just got really– I just started running and saying– I didn’t scream or anything. But it’s like trying to go like, either with my mouth saying, oh, God, or God, or just hitting myself. Not hitting myself, I wouldn’t do that. But just somehow jarring myself back into a reality.

Rick: I have that experience all the time, by the way. But I like it.

John: Yeah, right. That’s what everybody tells me now. John, you should have just– well, my dear friend, Robert Bailey, when I told him this before as my dear friend, he said, John, next time that happens, you just sit back and go, OK, what are you going to teach me? As a nine-year-old child, no, I didn’t want any part of this. I thought, this is too weird, too– but it would happen quite often. My parents would take me to the doctor. And he’d say, no, there’s nothing wrong with him. He’s fine. And so I just had to live with this until I– and then when I became about 13, or 14, or 15, somewhere around there, I went to a Youth for Christ rally in Akron, Ohio. And they said, if you truly believe that Jesus Christ died for your sins, then we invite you to come forward. And I took it as a sort of a thank you thing. So I would say, thank you to Jesus for– OK, I’ll come forward. So I walked down this huge Akron Civic Auditorium with all these born-again Christians. And I went down and accepted Christ as my Savior. This is October 12, 1969, the day I was saved.

Rick: Day after my birthday.

John: Really? Anyway, so I went down. And they took me to a little room. And they said, well, now you’re a Christian. I said, oh, OK. And I started going to this Baptist church. And I loved it. I loved being a Baptist. And I loved going to these things. And I loved the whole born-again Christian thing. Well, as I got older, I met some Mormons. And I started reading the Book of Mormon. And I was thinking– then I thought, well, it talked about Christ coming to America. And I thought, well, I can believe this, that Christ taught here and He taught there. So I became a Mormon when I was about 18, 19. And then I– to make a long story very short– went on a mission, married a Mormon, raised my children in the Mormon church. And loved every minute of it. I think between Jesus Christ and Joseph Smith, I felt like my spiritual needs and my need for spiritual philosophy and for answers to the questions of why are we here, where are we going, why are we here, or who are we, why are we here, who am I, why am I here, where am I going after this life, that sort of thing. I felt that those were answered very well. And then I started doing something called life coaching. And so I would talk to people about things that they needed in their life, things that would help them become better at whatever it was they were doing. I would coach CEOs of companies, vice presidents of companies, things like that. And then I– and trying to figure out what these people wanted, I came to the conclusion that what most people want in life, whether they say they want a car or they want to be the president of their company, they want to be promoted, they want a million dollars, whatever it is, I somehow got them to understand– I’m not sure how this evolved, but I got them to understand that that wasn’t what they wanted. What they really wanted was the feeling behind all that. They wanted to feel– and I came up with something that– I drew a circle for them. In the middle of the circle was joy, or success, or whatever you want to call it, whatever that thing was that they wanted to get to. And I figured out that what most people want in their life was to feel unique, to feel destined, that there’s a sense of destiny to their life. And this is the upper part of the circle. You have a sense of destiny and a sense of competence in the upper part, that I’m competent, that I can support my family, that I’m destined to do it, that I’m uniquely qualified to do it. And that gives people a sense of utter exhilaration. And so when you see a football player that’s going to the end of the line and he makes a touchdown, he’s like this. He’s just really excited. He’s just– because he was competent and he was destined to do that. That gives you that feeling. And then I said to these– and I taught these people that were my clients. I said, but you also have, in the lower part of the circle, that sense of love and belonging and that sense of worthiness. In other words, you keep the rules that you’ve been given and the sense of love. You belong to a wife, children. You have– or just people like you and love you. And you love them. There’s that. And that gives a sense– sort of a sense of peace. So you have this exhilaration and this peace. And you put them together. And I called that joy. It may be called bliss. I don’t know what. But that’s– I told people, that’s what they’re really after. And if you can get part of it by getting a car, which makes you feel competent, makes you feel good about yourself, that’s part of it. But you’ve got to have it all. So I started reading people who might be teaching that. And one of the people that I read was Stephen R. Covey. And one of the people that I read was Deepak Chopra. Well, Deepak Chopra said– and I loved Deepak Chopra. I still do. But he said in his writings, all of them, my teacher was Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. And I’d heard of him from the Beatles. And so I knew him. But I thought, well, if this is what– if Maharishi Mahesh Yogi is teaching this man these wonderful truths, then I want to know it all. I want to know everything he’s teaching. So I kind of said– and I took upper right. Up to the upper right, I said these words. I shall go to the place where they’re teaching what this man is teaching. And I was, at that time, trying to get a doctorate in intrapersonal communication, the self communicating with the self. Because I felt that that’s really where it was at.

Rick: Intrapersonal.

John: Intrapersonal. Because I have a degree in interpersonal communication, a degree in mass communication. And I wanted my doctorate to be in intrapersonal, the self communicating with self. Yeah. And so in studying that, and in studying for helping people in my business, my consulting business, I studied this man who led me to Maharishi Mahesh Yogi. So I said that. And about six months later, somewhere, three to six months later, I get a call from a man who lives in town here named Steven Nguyen.

Rick: Who was on this show.

John: Yeah, I understand. So it’s Steven called me and said, would you please come out? Some people had recommended you to start a coaching program for our company. It was called Home Business Technologies. So I flew out here. And in the limousine on the way from the airport, a guy in the back of the limousine– it was like a van. And so in the back seat, this guy said, would you mind if I meditated? And I said, knock yourself out. No clue what he was talking about. I thought he was going to light candles in the back seat and start doing some weird stuff. So I said, OK, whatever. And I just went on talking to the guy. And actually, I think I was a little more polite. I think we were quiet. But after about 20 minutes, it was over. And I just did– I said, that was it? That was your meditation? I turned around to him and he said, don’t you know where you’re going to? And I said–

Rick: Who said that?

John: The guy that was meditating. I don’t know who it was.

Rick: He said that to you?

John: To me. Don’t you know where you’re going? Don’t you know where you’re going? Because I didn’t have any clue where I was going. And he said, well, this is the home of transcendental meditation. And I said, well, transcendental meditation, do you mean the Maharishi Mahesh Yogi? And he said, yes. I said, oh my gosh, that’s where I said I wanted to go. That’s where I wanted to go. And here I am going there.

Rick: Yeah, interesting. Yeah, so I went there. And the first thing that I did– just to tell you about how this evolves–

Rick: This was what year we were talking about?

John: This was 1996. So it was in May of 1996, around there. Maybe April, because I started working there in May. But at any rate, I went. And they put me up at the Best Western Motel. And there was a lady that was giving a talk, or what I know now is called a satsang. And her name was Gangaji.

Rick: Oh, Gangaji. She happened to be there at the time?

John: She happened to be there at the time.

Rick: Very interesting.

John: And so I didn’t know anything about that. I knew nothing about meditation. I knew nothing about anything. And so Gangaji was down there. And I went and I sat down in this satsang. And it was quite beautiful and quite a wonderful experience. And I sat down with everyone. And she was mentioning some things about– she was talking about her opinion of meditators, which was quite lovely, quite nice. And then she said– and I don’t remember exactly when– but it was almost as if she looked at me and she said, whatever you’re looking for, you’re it. And I didn’t consider myself really looking for anything, but I got it. You know what happened? You get it? I got it. And I stood up and went out and left. Right in the middle of the talk? Yeah, I got it. OK. Then fine, I don’t need you. So I know that it was Gangaji. I think she’s a very wonderful, special woman. But I left. And then as the week went by and as I took the position with Stephen and Ed Beckley, I started to hire people to be coaches in this coaching department. And I would interview them on the phone, because most of the coaching was going to be done over the phone to people who had purchased their business program and wanted to be coached in it to success. So I wanted to hear how they were like. Well, there were people from all walks of life. But when I was done with hiring them, they were all meditators. They were all transcendental meditators.

Rick: Had already been, or they got into it?

John: No. They had already been meditators for many years. So that impressed me a lot. And so the first coach that I hired was Christine Clark Johnson.

Rick: Sure, I know her. And then she asked me in the middle of that– not in the middle of that, but during one of the first weeks, she said– she knew that I was very impressed by that. She said, would you like to learn to meditate? I said, yes, I would. And so I learned to meditate. And her husband, Greg Clark Johnson, taught me to meditate. Well, I went to a residence course a couple of months after that. And in that residence course, they were talking about what you call it, cosmic consciousness.

Rick: OK.

John: And now I have to explain this, because you have to all forgive me if I did anything wrong. Please forgive me.

Rick: Yeah, you’re forgiven, my son.

John: Really? OK. Because I didn’t know. I thought this was supposed to happen to everybody. I mean, they said– and I heard– I thought I heard Maharishi Mahesh Yogi in one of these tapes say, when you do this, then you will get– if you do this, you will go into this cosmic consciousness. At least that’s what I thought I heard.

Rick: He said that in so many words.

John: Yeah, in so many words. That’s what I was getting out of it. And so being, at that time, still a very strict Mormon, I prayed about everything. And so during this–

Rick: Residence course.

John: Residence course. Oh, no, I take that back. Excuse me. This is not scripted, and you don’t. OK, I went to that. At that first residence course, I got– please forgive me. I messed up the whole thing. I got nothing out of that first residence course.

Rick: Oh, OK.

Rick: That was the first residence course.

John: Nothing.

Rick: It was a dud.

John: It was a dud. No, it was a wonderful experience. But Maharishi Mahesh Yogi was talking about– there’s something called shaking hands with God. Remember that?

Rick: I remember that tape. That was a good tape.

John: And he talks about who God is.

Rick: Right. Well, being a Mormon, I had a strict view– not a strict view, because it’s very expanded view.

Rick: A well-formed view.

John: A well-formed view, yeah, of who God was. Because of this, and he’s this, and Jesus is the Son, and the Holy Ghost is the Holy Ghost, and Heavenly Mother is Heavenly Mother, and all that. So when he was talking about who God is, it kind of went over my head. It went, pfft, like that. Now, after the thing happened to Ed’s company with the IRS and the FBI coming in and closing it down, I left and then came back and started working for Telegroup. And I also met a wonderful woman named Elaine Bankston. And I fell in love, and we got married. Now, at that point, then I went to another residence course. I started going to school at MUM. I wanted to finish up my doctorate, so I went to MUM to get some classes. And again, I heard this stuff about going to another level, maybe a higher level of consciousness, called cosmic consciousness. So I learned about it. And during this residence course– and again, I apologize if I did anything wrong here– but I prayed and said, during this residence course, before I meditated one of the times, I said, I want to go into this cosmic consciousness. Because I loved it. I loved what it sounded like. I thought, I want this. And I had every– what do you call it? I knew on the deepest level that I would.

Rick: You’re just faithful, innocent.

John: Right, I didn’t know that there was something like a 20 year waiting period for this.

Rick: Cut the line.

John: Right, I cut in line. So I prayed, and then I started meditating. And during that meditation, I went into sort of– I wouldn’t say trance, because that sounds weird, but it wasn’t a trance. It was just maybe a dream, maybe whatever it was. It was very profound to me, for me. And I was standing before or inside of a building that looked like a completed version of– what’s that round building in Stonehenge? It looked like sort of a completed– like more of a modern–

Rick: Somebody put a roof on it.

John: Yeah, somebody put it. And it was blue and gold. And there’s this blue and gold light. And in there were three men. And they said to me– I don’t know if it’s a thought that they said, or whether they spoke out loud. I can’t really recall. But all I know is that it was communicated to me. And they said, these words, we’re going to grant you your request. And so it was such a deeply profound experience that I came out. And literally, it was as if I were walking around, and there was someone, myself, walking around behind me, as if I were driving the car. And I was in the backseat watching myself drive the car, too. No matter what I did, I knew before I was doing it that I was going to do it. And yet, it was totally spontaneous. And I went around. And I was just like, whoa. I just– I was like, whoa, hold on here. And so I went to bed that night. And I said, OK, now I’m going to sleep. Now I’m asleep. And now I’m still asleep. But I never went to sleep.

Rick: Right, you’re awake.

John: Yeah, and it was just– and then that happened. It kept happening for about two, three weeks. Then finally, I said, really, guys– or guys, please, this is driving me crazy here. So it kind of just settled in a little more. So it was just not that present. But it’s been there since then. And again, I didn’t think it was anything that special. So I never told anybody. The first person I told was Fred Travis at the university. I didn’t tell him till, I believe, in the Dome last year.

Rick: And he’s a neurophysiologist. Did he hook you up?

John: No, no, but he said– but he had said something to me. I don’t want to get Fred in trouble if I’m misquoting you, Fred, please forgive me. But I remember that because I wasn’t asking him for this to– for him to– you know–

Rick: Verify.

John: verify. Because to me, it was just– and I didn’t care whether it was really what it was. I didn’t care what the label for it is. It was just the experience was wonderful, and beautiful, and profound. But I just kind of asked him– he asked– oh, he asked me this question. He said, when you go to sleep, he said, when you dream, are you still awake in that? I said, oh, yeah. He said, now, when you’re asleep and there are no dreams, there’s just straight, flat sleep, are you awake through that? I said, oh, yeah. He said, oh. And then he said– then he told me what that was, what he believed that was. And I don’t believe he– I believe he knows it, because I believe Fred is totally enlightened, in my opinion. I think he’s just one of the finest people I’ve ever met, along with Stephen Wynn. And so– and I credit Stephen Wynn for bringing me here, for– I credit everything in my life of a spiritual nature to Christ, to Joseph Smith, to Deepak Chopra, to Maharishi Mahesh Yogi, and to Stephen Wynn, just because Stephen brought me here.

Rick: Yeah.

John: I wouldn’t have done it without that. Well, we all have our inspirations. But again, I don’t want to talk that way, because it sounds like I did something. And I don’t believe that I did something. I don’t believe that I’ve achieved anything. It’s just a wonderful experience that happened. And I cherish the experience. And I’m glad that the university, the powers that be, allowed me to have this experience of a greater– not a greater, but a profound, loving experience. And I’ll tell you something. That’s what it is. If you’ve ever been through something like that, it is a feeling of utter, profound joy and love that you can never get rid of. No matter how– we experienced the death of a son, of our son, Jack, who was Matt and Eve’s– Matt, Eve’s, and Bethany’s brother. And even through that was this profound knowledge that, number one, he’s OK. And even beyond that, even if we didn’t– well, I would never not believe that. But if I didn’t, for some reason, there would still be that profound sense of joy undergirding everything. And I feel it now. I feel it all the time. Even if I get angry. Even if I get a little depressed, there’s always that depression. But there’s that over it. Although, I’m not sure I’ve ever been totally depressed in that sense since that. But certainly, I have had ups and downs. You don’t have the ups and downs.

Rick: You’re a human being.

John: But you still have that. Yeah, you still have the human stuff. But you’re kind of witnessing it. You’re kind of saying, oh, I’m feeling depressed today. Huh. You know what I mean? It’s just that kind of– you’re not just wallowing in it like we used to.

Rick: Do you have a sense– now, let’s unpack this a little bit. So what year was it when you were on that residence course, and you said that prayer, and you saw those men, and you had that–

John: It was right after my wife and I were married. So it was the summer that we were married in May, May 25 of 1998.

Rick: OK, so it was about 12 years ago or so.

John: Yeah, something like that.

Rick: And you had this experience. But wouldn’t you agree that, unlike other experiences you may have had at that time, such as going to a great restaurant, or breaking your finger, or seeing a really cool movie, or going on a vacation to a really beautiful place, or whatever, there’s something different in the entire structure of the experience you’re referring to, in that it wasn’t just a thing you perceived that is basically gone and is nothing more than a memory once you’re no longer perceiving it, but it was a shift in the whole structure of your perception, the whole kind of nitty gritty way in which you experienced life.

John: Yes, it changed how I looked at everything. It changed how I looked at Christianity. It changed how I looked at Christ. It changed how I looked at my relationship with Christ, with God, with the Mormon church.

Rick: I would venture to guess that it changed how you looked at walking down the street. Just the everyday experience is being appreciated from a different perspective.

John: I see what you’re saying. I’m looking at it more like this way, religiously, how it changed by–

Rick: Well, certainly such an experience can change your understanding of metaphysical or religious concepts. Because, and I would say the reason it does so is that it substantiates them. It provides the juice that’s behind all the– it provides the experience which probably a lot of the people who originally articulated those concepts and wrote those books were having themselves, which enabled them to give expression to such things.

John: I think the most profound thing that it did was that it made me– well, actually, there are two experiences that did that to me. One was this. The other was the death of our son.

Rick: Was he just an infant at the time?

John: Oh, no, he was 23.

Rick: Oh. He was 23. So you were married twice, and this was your first–

John: Yes. This is our first–

Rick: Gotcha. Right, right.

John: Oh, yeah, right. So when I had this experience with following myself around, I learned that it is totally me, that I’m totally responsible for my life. Although I don’t know how to explain this unless you’ve been through it, that there’s still God, and I still am totally devoted to that concept of God and to the concept of God that came out of that. But I feel differently about who God is and what I feel. And it’s nothing I want to share here, but it’s–

Rick: You can if you want.

John: OK. I will if it comes out naturally. I don’t want to force it, because it’s– but I felt like it was that I’m going to receive a lot of help, but that it is ultimately me that’s doing the helping and that’s receiving the help. And I don’t know how to explain it, but I still believe that there are entities and beings, good, loving beings, that are helping me through this life. But ultimately, I believe that they are me.

Rick: Yeah. Actually, that’s sort of what I was trying to get at a few minutes ago, but I think you articulated it a lot better, which is that– and it also relates to this thing you said about feeling like you’re following yourself around and being awake during sleep and so on and so forth. And a person might hear that, and if it’s the first time they’ve heard something like that, they might think, well, it sounds like he’s getting a kind of schizophrenia or some kind of divided personality, or you have these people with multiple personalities and so on. But I think what you’re referring to is not a division of your relative self into two little pieces. It’s more like there’s something much bigger than the little piece that we ordinarily perceive ourself as being, and that something bigger had woken up. So it’s not like a little thing is following around another little thing. It’s more like there’s something in the background that’s always there, that can’t really go anywhere, and it’s always been there, and that is, in the deepest sense, what we are. And most people aren’t aware of that, but when you wake up to it, there can be this sense of, wait a minute. My body was sleeping. I was sleeping. I was dreaming. My wife said I was snoring, but I was awake. And so what is that I that was awake? It’s that sort of deeper, broader, more kind of essential nature of the self, which could not possibly sleep. What would happen to the universe if it slept?

John: And there’s no thinking– not ever did I ever think, oh, I am Vishnu.

Rick: You know what I’m saying?

John: Because, you know, that’s a little too– I mean, that’s like, ultimately, yes, I suppose that’s true with all of us, but I’m ultimately you, and you’re ultimately me, but we’re different. And that’s the way I feel about the people helping me. They’re obviously different people, but in a sense, it’s still– I think they’re still allowing me. I think that’s the whole– that is the whole science of free will and the science of determinism and free will, which I believe I heard Maharishi– or heard someone talk about Maharishi saying, is there free will and is there determinism? And I heard that his answer was something like, yes, or that there’s total free will and there’s– yes, there’s total free will, and yes, there’s total determinism. And I get that. I totally get that. But knowing that there’s people that are helping me and that I’ve gone through all this stuff in my life and all these lifetimes and things that have happened that brought me to this point, it seems like it’s totally determined. And yet, I know that it’s totally me, that I’ve totally made this choice to be where I am now.

Rick: You think that the fact that you’re more acutely aware of some beings or something helping you than other people might be has to do with your Mormon background, which, as I understand it, Mormons tend to place a fair amount of emphasis on angels and higher beings and so on and so forth. Do you think that made you more open to that perception?

John: Oh, definitely. Like I said, that’s why I said that this journey has been one of people that I revere as great spiritual teachers, masters, and prophets teaching me what the truth is about who we are. And who we are are spiritual beings who are on a path to godhood. By godhood, I don’t mean godhood. I mean godhood. I mean just on a path to being alive forever in the greatest sense of being alive, which is creating worlds and populating worlds and being on them again and again and again, just in having the joy of being with our loved ones forever and ever. And I mean that Vedically. I mean that Mormonly or whatever you say it. To me, there is no Mormonism. There is no Ved. There is only what I would consider to be the truth, whatever that is and whatever is revealed to me as time goes on.

Rick: Yeah. That’s a very commendable attitude, considering how locked in so many people are to their particular perspective or their particular tradition or whatever, and how people tend to boost themselves up or perhaps bolster their confidence by perceiving their thing as the best and everybody else’s thing is inferior, and so on and so forth. I mean, you have a very open-minded attitude.

John: I do and I don’t. I have to be honest. Because I’m not– I mean, I’m open to the fact that people are evolving at different rates. But I have to tell you– and again, please forgive me.

Rick: We asked you for forgiveness.

John: I don’t know. There’s anybody. Anybody that might be– but I can’t lie. I am utterly– well, I have to tell you another experience. I have to go through this experience. I was asked to come back to MUM to–

Rick: Maharishi University of Management in Fairfield, Iowa.

John: Maharishi University of Management in Fairfield, Iowa. I was working a little bit with Ed Beckley again, and then somewhat with– and coaching again back in Utah the last couple of years. And I– doing quite well. But I was not happy. Neither was my– and yet we were very happy. And Utah is a wonderful place to have our– Elaine’s kids were there, or her son was there, and with his wife and three beautiful children. And it was wonderful being there. But I felt this need to come back to Fairfield. So while I was feeling– it’s again, upper right thing. I want to go back to Fairfield. My wife got a call from Vicki Alexander at the college. And she said– and I heard her say to my wife, because I was listening to the–

Rick: Speakerphone?

John: No, it was a message. Listening to a message. And it said, has John ever considered teaching in the business department here? And I just felt this surge of complete joy at that thought. And so I sent an email to Vicki, and I said, I’m listening. So she just sent back and said, well, come out and talk. So I decided– I had just got to Cities the year before.

Rick: Cities meaning the TM Cities program.

John: The TM Cities– yeah, right. I got those about the year before. And this was about 2007 when I got that message. Or ’08, I think, 2008. Anyway, flew out, or drove out, and interviewed with Kathy Guarini at the college. And during the interview, Kathy said, you know, would you like to be dean of men? And so I thought– I called my wife, and I said, this feels good. So I decided to do that. I came out, and it turned out that I ended up working with Linwood King, who is the current dean of men. And he and I kind of decided that we’d be associate deans of men and work on it together.

Rick: Codeines.

John: Codeines, yeah, codeines. So that has been utter joy to work with him.

Rick: Yeah, he’s a great guy.

John: He’s another man of complete spiritual enlightenment about that.

Rick: Yeah, delightful guy.

John: And so we did that. I have– this way? This way. You know what? OK.

Rick: He wants us to move. Got it.

John: OK, got it. Anyway, I have no idea where I’m going with this. Where was I going with this?

Rick: You’re talking about how you got back to Fairfield.

John: This is what happens when you don’t write things down. OK, got back to Fairfield. OK.

Rick: And it somehow pertains to some experience.

John: Oh, OK.

Rick: Because I was saying about very open-minded, and my thing’s not any better than anybody else’s thing. And you said, well, I–

John: We’ll just see where this goes. Let’s see if I can get back on track. So come back, get the city– no, I already had the cities. Come back, and I started working as the associate dean of men.

Rick: Right.

John: And then– oh, shoot.

Rick: Came back, you became associate dean of men. We might edit this part out.

John: Yeah, we’ll edit this part. And we were talking about the different experiences.

Rick: Yeah, I was saying how I thought it was very commendable that you’ve been so open-minded, because most people get locked into it.

John: Oh, I said it wasn’t–

Rick: At least you confessed that you maybe weren’t as open-minded as I was giving you credit for.

John: Right. And so– oh, yes. So being there, I asked– I had an interview with Craig Pearson. And I–

Rick: Craig is vice–

John: He is the– I call him the on-campus president, but he’s actually the executive vice president, I call it. And he works, of course, under the direction of, I believe, Bevan Morris, who is the chairman and president of the– I think the president of the university. Anyway, I’ve always really, really respected Craig. And so we had this conversation, and we got to know each other. And I told him that I would be willing to do anything that he asked me to do, whether it was– and I won’t mention what it was, but just certain things I’d be willing to not do anymore or change my attitude about certain things. Not that I had a bad attitude, but I’m not a movement person, so I wasn’t really sure what my attitude should be. So I said, whatever you want my attitude to be, I’ll be it. And he said, no, no. We like it just the way it is. It’s fine. And so I was thinking, well, I have to be really straight with this now. I have to be really on the program now, really on the program. And I was on the program, but I’m here now. I’ve got to be even more strict in what I thought.

Rick: And by on the program, you mean doing your meditation regularly and so on, like everybody does on campus.

John: Well, this experience I had relates to that. I was driving my car, and I was listening to the radio. And I just arrived. And I heard this man on the radio. And he was talking about spiritual experiences and how that relates to God and how it relates to religion and nature and how it relates to other things. And I was resonating so much with this man. I was feeling such love for this person giving this that I thought, oh my gosh. I got worried because I thought I was totally giving my– surrendering my spiritual whatever to this Christian–

Rick: Was this like a Christian radio station or something?

John: I don’t know. At that point, I didn’t know what it was I was listening to. But I thought– but this was expanded. It was totally expanded, totally loving, totally– this is what I believe. I believe all this. OK, I’m sorry. I’m going to have to go back and resign. Because this man, I’m going to– this man, whoever– if I found out who he was, I’m going to follow this person. And so I was all set to go back. And I tell my wife, I’m sorry, honey. We got to leave. We can’t work with the university because I’m following this person. Well, then I came to find out. I heard him speak again. And someone said– I think Linwood King said– I said, who’s that person? He said, that is a man named Raja Ram.

Rick: Aha, Tony, right.

John: Tony Nader.

Rick: That was his original name.

John: His original name, yeah. But I knew it was Raja– Raja something– the whole name is a long one. But they call him Raja Ram. I said– and I thought, that’s who I was listening to. That’s the man. And I thought, oh, I don’t have to leave the college, thank God. Because– but just– and everything that’s happened in my life, whether it be from the words of Christ, the words of Joseph Smith, certainly the words of Moses, the words of Maharishi, and these words of Raja Ram–

Rick: Incidentally, this Raja Ram you’re referring to, he’s a sort of a spiritual head or leader of the TM movement. Yeah, just so people know what we’re talking about.

John: But I totally resonated with that. And what I mean by that, when I say that I’m– I don’t resonate with everyone. Even people that I totally respect. For example, I absolutely revere and adore Ammachi. And I– Amma. And I was invited by some friends to go and see Ammachi. And I did. And it was a wonderful experience. But when I got the hug, I went forward and got the hug. And I thought– and I honestly thought, is that all there is? I mean, for me, I didn’t think of it in a negative or bad way. I just thought, I thought there should be more. And then she kind of felt it too, I think, because she goes back and then she hugs me again.

Rick: Hugs you again, yeah. And it was just one of those things where we kind of thought– where I kind of thought, well, what a wonderful woman. And I totally respect what she is. But my heart goes to Maharishi, Mahesh Yogi. It just does, and to Raja Ram. So that’s who it goes to. But still, at the same time, that’s why I say I totally get that other people don’t have that experience. And they may not be drawn to them the way I am. I resonate with when they talk. I get choked up when I hear their teachings. And I totally get it. I don’t say I believe it. I totally know that what they’re talking about is absolute. And I mean it beyond the religious sense too. I just mean it’s just truth. That’s the way– so when kids come to– so when kids at school come to me and they say, well, I believe this, and I don’t want to do that, and I don’t think I should do the program, I always come back because of what I believe to say, I think you should do the program. Whatever you do afterwards or whatever you do in your life from now on, that’s your evolution. I totally respect where you’re coming from. But I also totally believe that Maharishi Mahesh Yogi created something that helps lead people into these experiences that we’re talking about. I believe that with all my heart. Anyway, that’s just the result.

Rick: You use the word believe a lot. And–

John: That’s that Mormon background.

Rick: Well, that’s what I was going to say. I mean, you have a very religious background from–

John: Sorry about that.

Rick: No, that’s all right. From Baptist church to Mormon church and this and that. And I believe all kinds of things myself. But I think maybe you and I agree, or would agree, that when one’s experience of these spiritual truths or realities or whatever you want to call it, essentially when one’s experience of the self is clear enough, then there’s not this sort of dependency on belief or clinging to belief or rigidity of belief. You can kind of be soft about it. I mean, some people, they use belief like a sledgehammer. And I get the sense that people who do that are actually trying to compensate for their own doubt, their own insecurity, by foisting their belief on other people with a sort of an aggressive style.

John: I’ll go out on a limb here. And I’ll go off of the belief. And I’ll step into dangerous waters here to talk about. I believe that what the great teachers of this world, including Gurudev, Maharishi, I don’t know the others. I haven’t studied the others. It’s the only ones I’ve really studied.

Rick: A whole bunch.

John: A whole bunch. And I believe, let’s say Maharishi, that what Maharishi’s goal was and is is to get us to the point where we are our own gurus. That’s what I sense from that. And so when I say I believe that Maharishi’s knowledge is supreme, and I do, I also believe that his teaching, the supreme teaching of Maharishi, is that we somehow– not grow away, but grow away from Maharishi the same way we grow away from our parents.

Rick: Yeah.

John: We step away. We still love them. We still revere them. We still follow their teachings. But this is my enlightenment. This is me. I mean–

Rick: Yeah, if you’re 35 years old and you’re still living in your boyhood bedroom, there’s a problem. So whatever I’m experiencing, I take full responsibility for it, whether it’s right or wrong, or whatever. I do. At the same time, what I try to teach the kids at the school is that in order to get to that point– and by teaching, I don’t mean I don’t teach them anything. And if it comes up– because I’m not a teacher to them. I’m not a governor. But if it comes up in private conversations that we’re having, what I try to get across to them, at least to my experience, has been, if it were not for Maharishi leading me with these techniques and with these things, with these techniques and with these programs, that I wouldn’t have had the freedom to then experience the profound, loving, and joyful experiences that I had.

Rick: Yeah.

John: And I’m sure that’s probably true of them, with the people that taught them before they came to this knowledge.

Rick: Well, and also when you think about any great spiritual teacher, famous or otherwise, in this world, was at one point a student. And somehow or other, at a certain stage, he underwent, or he or she underwent, a transition from being someone who is chasing after knowledge and following a teacher, and so on and so forth, to having a certain authority, a certain confidence, and ability to teach others, and becoming a teacher in his own right, or her own right. And so if that’s happened to all these people who made a name for themselves, whom we revere, why should it not also happen to us at a certain point? And it doesn’t mean that we reject those sources of inspiration. In fact, we may appreciate them more than ever. But it just means that there’s perhaps not the same kind of dependent relationship that there once was. There’s more of a sense of self-sufficiency, of self-confidence, of– like that.

John: I will say this. I said I wasn’t going to say who God is to me, but I’ll just say in a light sense. I know who God is for me. I mean, for me. Like the person that is assigned to me, so to speak.

Rick: Sort of an individual facet of God that’s on the John Speer project.

John: Exactly. And I think that– and the sense that I get is that we have known each other for eternity, and that we have played that part for each other back and forth.

Rick: So it’s like you have a personal God, you’re saying, or a personal–

John: Yeah. And he’s the God that I call the Father, and I call him Christ, and I call him– well, I call him something. I won’t reveal that. But there’s something– and it’s someone who has been– just to give you an example, Matthew, our youngest son, was in the back seat of the car. We’re in Utah. We’d just come home from church, and I was making a turn on this freeway. And coming down the road is this huge truck, huge semi-truck. And I was just not paying attention, and I turned right in front of it. And it was right bearing down. I mean, it was– we were going to be killed, or at least Matt was going to be killed, because I would have turned and hit the car right where he was sitting. So I didn’t pray, and I didn’t have time to pray, believe me. It was like, I just– like, whoa. I could just– I just knew that this was going to not come out good. Well, at that moment, I felt a hand on my foot, squeeze my foot, and slam it through the– Accelerator. Accelerator. Slam it through the floorboard, and the car jumped. And it missed it by just an inch.

Rick: Wow.

John: And it was just shaking, and we were, of course, all shaken up. But that was, to me, physical. That was a physical manifestation of something, anyway. But things like that, from that– I’m sure they’re happening before that, but– And I just–

Rick: Maybe that’s what’s the problem with all these Toyotas. This guy has kind of like gone off the program, and he’s going around slamming down.

John: That’s right. That’s right. Maybe. But I mean, that’s been my experience with it. That is a very practical God. It’s not something up there. It’s like something that’s there all the time.

Rick: Yeah.

John: But as I’ve meditated more, done the Cities program, and as I’ve done that, I’ve gotten this feeling that– not a feeling, more like a ritam, that this is– this for me, only for me, speaking only for me, that this person deeply cares. And like I said, it’s something that– it’s almost like he’s– and I want to say this, because I don’t want to get inaccurate. At the same time, I want to be accurate about the feeling. It’s almost as if he, because of his relationship with me, he must be there to help me.

Rick: Well, this kind of sounds like the guardian angel idea.

John: Or something like that.

Rick: Yeah. And I’ve read a lot of books about that sort of thing also. And I guess the idea is that we do have somebody looking out for us, and that we also have served that role and will serve that role when we’re on the other side, so to speak.

John: Exactly.

Rick: Yeah.

John: That’s what I was feeling, that I had this– I must have had this– that maybe I did the same thing. I don’t know.

Rick: Yeah. That could even be some kind of– some soulmate of yours, or something that you have a close relationship with. But that, to me, wouldn’t mean God, because there’s 6 billion people on the planet, and everybody must have somebody.

John: I agree. I agree. But to me, it’s all–

Rick: But maybe a representative.

John: But it’s all part of it.

Rick: Yeah.

John: Because I gave this– I shared one experience. A lot of people share their experience of the dome. One time, when I first came back, I shared this experience. Actually, it’s before I joined the universities, when I was just getting the cities and going through the dome for a while. And I had this kind of really profound experience where, in the dome while flying, where–

Rick: We better unpack some of that. OK, first of all.

Rick: Cities.

John: OK, unpack the cities.

Rick: Cities. There’s this TM City program, which we mentioned briefly. It’s an advanced program, which people who’ve done trans-dome notation for a while can learn. The dome refers to– there are two large golden domes or geodesic structures on the campus of Maharishi University of Management, where everybody comes together and does this meditation and TM City program together twice a day. And flying means that there’s a component of the TM City program, which they call yogic flying, which was discussed by Patanjali in the Yoga Sutras, which ultimately is said to result in the ability to actually levitate. But at the stage that everyone seems to have been experiencing it for the last 30 years might involve hopping or just sort of short little jumps across the floor during practice. I just wanted to define those terms, because all kinds of people will be watching this. And if we just throw out terms, they won’t know what you’re talking about.

John: Well, now I forgot what I was going to say.

Rick: Sorry.

John: I’m kidding. I’m kidding. So anyway, so while doing that flying, what I call taking off and landing, taking off and landing. While I was doing that, I had this– it was actually during one of the rest periods, but I had this profound, beautiful experience. And it was– this is for me. And it was that I was somehow at the beginning of the universe when there was nothing. And somehow I was there, and I was that. I was– I mean, I wasn’t, but I mean, I was. I mean, but it was just like– it was at that moment. But I was at the moment of what you call the Big Bang, I guess, where everything exploded into existence. The feeling I got from that, before that, was that I’m alone, and I want to share with someone. Or I want to love. That feeling of wanting to love. And all of a sudden, with that yearning for having someone to love, the universe was given birth to. In my experience, it was as if it had exploded into existence, and where that being that I was was exploded into existence. At that moment– before that, I didn’t exist. But I did. But I didn’t. But I exploded, and it was an explosion of complete, utter love.

Rick: And one may become many.

John: And it was like I was– everything that was creating in the universe, I was the planets. I was the stars. I was whatever it was. I mean, I can’t even put words to it. And it went to the furthest ends of the universe. And the feeling that I got was that I was all of this. And yet, I came out of that as the entity, the being, the personality that I am now. And yet, I was everything else.

Rick: Interesting. This guy that I was– that I said I was listening to lately, Craig Hamilton, the great integral awakening person, is writing a book. And I heard him give an interesting talk called “The Future of God.” And one of the points he makes is that we are basically the eyes and ears of the Big Bang, and the heart of the Big Bang. It’s like this primordial intelligence, which as you beautifully described just now, manifested itself into this universe, has as its expression, sense organs, which you are one, and I am one, and all of us are, through which it is experiencing the creation that it has created. And we are that intelligence, essentially. We might experience ourself and think of ourself as just being this fragment, this isolated individual among billions. But we are more essentially, which you’ve touched upon a number of times tonight, we are that– I keep holding my hands back like this to imply fundamental, primordial. We are that primordial intelligence, which is giving rise to all this diversity. And I think the experience you just mentioned touches upon that.

John: Yeah. And to me, and for me, that is what I would call the Christ phenomenon. People may call it something else.

Rick: Why would you call it that?

John: Because I believe that the ultimate definite– Christ is the story of a father and a loving mother, who are both, in a sense, God. The Catholic Virgin Mary puts her as a very unique goddess, almost. And I kind of believe that. And then there is his father. And then Christ comes as a result of that beautiful union. But that’s the point value story. To me, the cosmic story of that is that the father, so to speak, the great potential, the great– because men, to me, we’re about potential. And women are about helping men gain that potential, helping their families gain that, whatever. There’s that nurturing element. There’s that reception thing. So to me, how the universe was created was that there was that great potential that I would call, in a spiritual sense, the father. And the moment that he said in himself, I want love, I want to love someone, then at that moment, Mother Divine appeared, in a sense. And they came together in that deep, sacred love of where a man says, I want this. The woman says, I will give it to you. And then with that came an explosion of bliss and love out of that. And out of that came the creation of the universe. And the universe, to me, is Christ. And the reason that we say Jesus Christ, well, because to me, he is the a physical and one of the best physical embodiments of the universe in a physical body.

Rick: You mean he who lived 2,000 years ago is that?

John: Yes. But he’s not the only one. But whoever that was that was Christ, he is also other avatars, other– who were that universe. I believe that the first one was Vishnu, that Vishnu is that embodiment of the universe, of that great love that became the universe. And I believe that the reason that the Christ story is so important– whatever you call it, if you call it the Christ story or some other story– but the reason Christianity, to me, is profound is because it teaches me that there is a man that lives as the embodiment of the universe. And I want to live that way. I want to do that. I do not believe that I’ll go to hell if I don’t believe in Christ. I don’t believe that part of the Christian story now. After these experiences, I believe that the Holy Spirit is my spirit, is the higher me, is the me that I was exploded into this universe to be, the personality that the universe made of me, and that I am that part of Christ that is John, and you’re the part of Christ that is–

Rick: Rick.

John: Rick. I just want to call him Dan.

Rick: Other people have wanted to call me Dan. I know. That should change my name.

John: You should change your name. Anyway, so that is my experience, that I don’t believe that Christ is one of these egotists that says, you must believe only in me. I don’t believe that. I believe that there

Rick: I mean, if that were true, then–

John: Using belief

Rick: then most of the universe is screwed, because, I mean, he just happened to live 2,000 years ago

John: I know.

Rick: one little tiny planet.

John: I know. God must love to send people to hell. Anyway, so–

Rick: One thought that’s been kicking around my head for the last few minutes that you might like to touch upon is, God is– do you want more water?

John: No, I’m fine.

Rick: OK.

John: I’m just nervous.

Rick: OK. Yeah. Don’t worry. It gets better.

John: Was that water?

Rick: OK. God is said to be omniscient, right? Omnipotent, omnipresent, all that stuff. And that intuitively rings true to me. I mean, if there is a God, if he’s anything less than those attributes, then he wouldn’t be able to create the creation as we know it. But when you think about what those words mean, it means he permeates your tie. He permeates your body. He permeates the wall.

John: Right.

Rick: Everything. There’s no place where he cannot be found.

John: Or it permeates. Or it permeates.

Rick: I once heard Maharishi say– the first time I ever saw him when I was on a course with him in 1970, he gave this talk in which he said, God is all powerful, is omnipotent. But there’s one thing he can’t do. He can’t take himself out of your heart.

John: That is an incredibly beautiful statement. That makes me a little choke up. That is really– and again, it resonates. It resonates with me. That is absolutely the truth. Because I believe– I say I believe. I shouldn’t say that.

Rick: I believe.

John: I believe. My experience with all this is that we are the only physical evidence of God.

Rick: What do you mean by that?

John: I should say the only personal evidence of God.

Rick: What do you mean by that?

John: That we are all a part of God. That experience that I had being exploded into existence, that was God. That was God as a Christian was called Christ. But other religions would have called something else. But eternal love, whatever it is. That is that every one of us is that personal representation of God.

Rick: Why do you use the word only in there?

John: What did I say?

Rick: You said we’re the only representative of God.

John: Well, because there is no one else. There’s only us. There’s only the beings that were created in that thing. Whether they’re higher beings of what we call gods, or whether they’re us, whether they’re animals, whether they’re whatever life is, life itself is God.

Rick: Everything is an expression.

John: Consciousness is God. The expression of consciousness in everyone is the expression of God.

Rick: As a friend of mine likes to say, We are the sense organs of the infinite.

John: Yeah, so if I say I love you, God is saying I love you. No one’s going to tell you–

Rick: God is saying I love God.

John: Yeah. I mean, God will say it. But to me, it will be like when I say the angels were– I don’t believe there’s anything other than that. That’s what I meant when I said it was God. It’s the angels. It’s you. When you help me, it’s an angel helping me. When that guy out there that’s helping us helps us, it’s God helping us.

Rick: Well, like Christ said, whatsoever you do unto the least of these, you do to me.

John: Exactly. I think that’s what he meant.

Rick: Yeah.

John: And I think when I say Christ is God, I mean Christ is certainly in the Mormon church, Christ is our God. But my expanded belief on that is that Christ meant for us to all be the same thing to each other too, to be that to each other, to be that Savior, to be that loving being to each other and to ourselves. And that’s what I mean when I say the only emotional expression or physical and personal representation of God in this universe is all of us. There’s no one else. I mean, there is, but you may think, well, that’s God. Well, no, it’s another avatar. It’s another person. That’s who we all are. Maharishi had a concept that he often used, which I think takes a lot of the confusion out of this, which is that– there’s a couple of thoughts I have here– is that knowledge is different in different states of consciousness. And that sorts things out so nicely, because you have people running around saying, you know, there is no creation, there is no personal self. And then you have people on the other hand saying, you know, there is no absolute, it’s all relative, and so on and so forth.

John: And it’s all true.

Rick: Yeah, it’s all true. And there’s so many different things people say. And from each of those individual perspectives, if you just totally lock into that, everything else seems to contradict. But if you have this perspective of knowledge is different in different states of consciousness, and there’s a whole theory called spiral dynamics, which is very helpful with this too, which is that there are these different memes or just strata of evolution that are represented by different individuals and different cultures, and that each is valid and appropriate in its own right. And that people naturally progress from one to the other, generally not by skipping three stages, but by moving stage to stage. And as I say that, I mean, there are people who rail against this progressive notion that there are stages, and you have to progress, and that evolution is a continuing unfoldment. They say, you know, all you have to do is realize that what you see now is the reality, and it’s always that way, and there’s no progression. That too is true, but so is the progression thing. And–

John: What I love about the– well, about my experiences and what I’ve been taught is that it’s all– you can be in complete and utter joy at any step along the way. You don’t have to wait to get up here to feel that.

Rick: No, I like that.

John: You can feel it here. And it’s like– and to me, it is always about the journey. It will always be the journey, because the journey will never be over. Never. It will always be– I mean, what we’re talking about now– I have to tell you one experience that I had with the Mormon bishop, who I truly revered. We were doing business together in Utah. This was many years ago before I even heard about Maharishi. And we were sitting there, and something happened to the business. It was not a very nice thing that happened. It was quite negative, and we were feeling pretty down. We’re sitting around a table just like this, and he said to the two of us that were sitting there, you know, someday we will be looking down on this and laughing at it. In fact, we probably are. And I thought– and that was another kind of awakening thing, like, whoa. And I– and it wasn’t until I learned some of the stuff I learned from Maharishi that I understood really what that meant, and what it meant by this journey that we take, that we’re taking, that at any moment, we can– any moment, and at all moments, we can feel utter bliss. And this is why I believe that the most important thing that Maharishi has taught, other than the techniques and everything, of course– but I mean, as far as the sermons that he’s given, is that one word that he says all the time, which is enjoy. No matter where it is, enjoy. And he doesn’t say, well, enjoy after you meditate, enjoy before this, make sure you do this before you can enjoy. No, it’s enjoy the whole thing.

Rick: Yeah.

John: And–

Rick: He used to say that the goal is all along the path. You know–

John: The goal– and let me say it again. The goal is all along the path. Yes, I think I can–

Rick: He called it a royal road to fulfillment for that reason, that at every stage of the path, the goal is also found. And so there’s not this sort of emptiness waiting for the grand, glorious conclusion to happen someday. There’s fulfillment at every stage. And to me, that’s a very kind of compassionate feature of life, that whatever stage you’re at, there can be joy and fulfillment at that stage. And perhaps if you were to shift back right now to where you were 15 or 20 years ago, it would be an agonizing contrast. But 15 or 20 years ago, it was OK then, because of the contentment structured into your experience at that time. And perhaps if you had been able to shift from where you were 15 years ago to where you are now, the contrast, again, would be so extreme that you could hardly handle it, perhaps ecstatic. But that makes no point.

John: You know, one thing that I get it from what you’re saying to me. One thing that I– and I don’t mean this in a negative sense at all. I just mean that if– because I never judge people’s– where they are spiritually. I just trust that what they tell me is true. But if I were to– if I were to doubt where they claim to be, I would doubt it for this reason. I’ve never have, but if I were, I were to for this reason. If anybody ever says, oh, I had this experience, and now I’ve arrived, I would completely doubt their experience, because that is not my experience. My experience is not that I’ve arrived by any stretch. It’s that, oh, this has given me perspective on where I am, and now I can see, whoa, there’s so much more. And I like that thing you gave with the spiral, because that’s what it’s like. You’re like here. You’re going, oh, now I’m here, I think. I was down here on my own path, and now I’m here. But I can sense that there’s something more, and that when I get up here, I’m going to look down at even what we talked about today and say, I knew nothing. Nothing. And I can tell that. I know that. I know that deep within me that what we’re talking about here, the gods, the higher beings are going, oh, jeez, you guys don’t even have a clue.

Rick: Yeah, if you Google spiral dynamics, you’ll find a lot about it. The term was coined by a guy named Clare Graves, and he’s dead now. But Ken Wilber and Craig Hamilton, Don Beck, a bunch of people like that are very articulate about it, have written books about it. It’s just a nice, interesting theory. One way I like to think of things sometimes is that we’re all reflectors.

John: Reflectors.

Rick: And that there’s no end to the polishing. It’s like when they make the Hubble telescope or something, they polish those mirrors endlessly to get them just totally smooth and the right proportions or the right curvature and so on, so the mirror will work perfectly. And they do thousands of hours of this polishing. And in our case, we go through a lifetime, lifetimes of continual improvement in our ability to reflect that which we essentially are. And funnily enough, our essential experience of that which we are is the same now as it was 10 years ago, as it will be 10 years from now. It’s the same thing. It doesn’t change. But our ability to reflect it continually clarifies. Our ability to express it continually clarifies. And something might happen to us. We might have a stroke or something. And then our ability to reflect it won’t be so good. But in the bigger picture of things, I don’t think that’s really a setback. I think that there’s a continual evolution to the soul, if you want to call it that, where we become a greater and greater– our capacity to embody and to reflect and to express and to bring this into the world continues to grow or be enhanced.

John: One thing that I’ve noticed since these experiences have been happening is that I look at people more– without mood making, because you could really mood make on this but hopefully not a mood making way– look deep into people’s eyes and see who they are.

Rick: Yeah, yeah.

John: And deeply so because they say the eyes are the windows of the soul. So it’s that you look in their eyes and you see the love. You see– and you see yourself.

Rick: I was going to say that if you didn’t. Yeah. Because essentially, you and I are the same person. That’s what I mean by reflector. You reflect it differently than I. And your kids reflect it–

John: Am I handsome?

Rick: We’re all just kind of like– there’s a nice line I like from– remember this band, the Incredible String Band from the ’60s? Maybe you were too straight to remember them.

John: I was very straight. Oh, man, was I straight as a kid.

Rick: But there was a line from one of their songs. I think it was Job’s Tears was the song, which is, “Light that is one, though the lamps be many.”

John: The lights be one. Oh, yeah.

Rick: “Light that is one, though the lamps be many.”

John: Yeah, yeah. And what I love about what I learned from Maharishi was that we had these birthday parties, you know? And I love those birthday parties that they have in this– I guess it’s called a movement.

Rick: TM movement.

John: Yeah, TM movement. And one of the things they say is that– something about the light of the world. And they don’t mean Maharishi as the light of the world. At first, I thought– and when I first heard that, I was still really strict in my Mormonism. Oh, my gosh. In the light of the world, that’s Christ, you know? But as I heard it, as I listened to it through the years, I thought, no, he’s not saying that at all. He’s saying something about the light of the world, but he meant consciousness.

Rick: Yeah.

John: The light of consciousness, the light of the world, which, again, was my definition of that Christ phenomenon.

Rick: I should remember that little rap, because I sat through so many of those birthday parties. When we were in India on this Vedic studies course, we’d been bussed in from out of town. We’d been there all day. And then it’s like 11, 12 at night. Everybody’s exhausted. We have to be bussed all the way back out to where we’re staying. Maharishi, it’s my birthday.

John: Oh, man.

Rick: So somebody comes up. We have to go through this whole rigmarole, and they say this little thing and sing this little song. But one of the things I always liked that he used to say was, he said, long, long life in immortality to our dear, already enlightened John.

John: Oh, yeah.

Rick: And that phrase, already enlightened. Everybody was thinking, what does he mean, already enlightened? Am I already enlightened? I’m already enlightened. I’m a schmuck. I don’t understand anything. But I think he really meant that. He wasn’t just buttering people up.

John: I really believe that there’s a Vedantic aspect to the movement, and there’s a Vedic aspect. The Vedantic is that you’re already enlightened. And the Vedic is that it’s a process. It’s a continual process, which I totally believe. And I believe that what Maharishi meant when he said it, when I heard that, my interpretation of that, my own, is that we are already enlightened. But we’re not necessarily experiencing that enlightenment on the clearest and most profound level we can.

Rick: And almost everybody who has the kind of awakening that we’ve been talking about here has this realization, I’ve always known this. I’ve always been this. Why didn’t I see it before? It was right in front of my nose.

John: It’s like seeing that picture with the dots on it. And you say, why didn’t I see that before? It’s a two.

Rick: Yeah, yeah. It’s just as– and that’s why I think discussions like this are very valuable, because they kind of enliven the understanding. They can kind of point to something which has been there all along, which you just might not have recognized. And this town is full of people who have been meditating 20, 30, 40 years, some of whom still have the attitude that, oh, I’m decades away from ever getting this. It’s not going to happen to me. But I contend that it’s actually already happened to a good many of them, if not to all of them. And that there’s just some little fog, some little failure to recognize something that has already dawned in their awareness. But it’s like you’re still looking for something which you’ve already found. And I’ve actually seen people have this moment of awakening where they say, you mean this is it? Oh, this, of course. I’ve known this all along. I just never– I was looking for something else. I didn’t realize it was this. And then once they gain that insight, there’s this kind of rush of confidence. And stability that comes to it.

John: And that’s why, believe it or not, I feel it’s so important that people stay on their programs. Because when it happens, it’ll happen at a different– they won’t be expecting it. And I believe that there shouldn’t be any– what I’ve learned was what’s called mood making. You want it so bad that you start to mood make it. And my experience with it is– and I’m sure yours and everybody’s had it– is that like Steve was talking about when he talked about his, it was just a simple question he asked himself that put him through that experience.

Rick: And anything can trigger it.

John: And the same with me, a simple prayer. I think I’ll do that. Not expecting that would happen, but yet expecting– I didn’t expect it would happen. I just didn’t expect that it– I just completely– what do I say the negative of that? I had no illusions that it wouldn’t happen. I didn’t think that–

Rick: You were just sort of innocent and matter of fact about it. I just asked for it. If he’s going to give it, fine. If he doesn’t, that’s fine. But I totally knew it could happen. But it just happened. And I noticed that some people will do this. They will have an experience. And then they’ll spend– they’ll go to the dome all the time to regain that experience. And it’s not going to happen. It’ll never happen the same way again. It’ll happen some other way. And it’ll be happen innocently again. May happen in the dome. May happen outside of the dome. It may happen in church. May happen in the bedroom. It may happen in a bar. It may happen anywhere.

Rick: What is that Christ said? “Seek and you shall find. Knock and the door shall be opened.” I mean, there’s this seeking and creates a certain momentum, which I think eventually, and sometimes very shortly, gets fulfilled. And this thing about it happened, and they want it to happen again. They want it to come back. I mean, really, ultimately, what we’re talking about is not something which comes and goes, or could come and go.

John: Exactly. That’s why I’m starting to understand why you’re even asking. If you had that experience, it should be still there. I mean, the essence of it is just joy. The experience of the– like my experiences with whatever, with exploding into the thing, whatever. I mean, that will probably never happen again. But that feeling of unity and of oneness will never leave.

Rick: Right. Where can it go?

John: Yeah. I’ll have to quiet myself a little bit. And whoa.

Rick: Yeah. And don’t you even find that sometimes you’re not quiet? Sometimes when you’re in the middle of– you perform in plays, when you’re doing something really dynamic like that, there’s that silence. There’s that unity or oneness, as you put it. In the midst of this thing where I’m memorizing lines and I’m standing up in front of 500 people and I’m doing all this stuff, still there’s this kind of like a continuous flow of–

John: Oh, always.

Rick: Yeah.

John: That’s the beauty, I think, of being in the performing arts, is that you have that kind of man-made cosmic consciousness experience where you’re witnessing yourself. You know what lines you’re going to say. And yet it feels spontaneous when you say it. Yet you know you’re going to say it. You have that witnessing factor of, oh, I need to walk over here. At the same time, you have to have a real relationship with the people on the stage. At the same time, you’re witnessing the whole thing. That’s why I think theater is such a– I think theater should be a very important part of Maharishi University because of that very reason.

Rick: And you teach theater there, right?

John: No.

Rick: No.

John: No.

Rick: You just perform in things.

John: My wife directs and choreographs and teaches for our theater company, along with the kids involved in that. And we try to put on as many things as we can from Maharishi University in the Spade Theater. But there is no official theater program there at this moment.

Rick: It used to be the Rodney’s–

John: Rodney did it for MSAE and for Iowa Theater Company. Did a wonderful job. And then Kent Sugg and my wife did it for the school. So did, of course, Sidney Spade.

Rick: This whole thing about experience is coming and going, though. Let’s touch on that, and then maybe we’ll wrap it up. But there was a story about Ramana Maharishi, who was a great saint in South India.

John: It’s called Ramana Maharishi?

Rick: Ramana Maharishi, he was called.

John: I think I’ve heard of him.

Rick: Yeah, he was very often considered by many to be one of the greatest sort of saints.

John: Didn’t Maharishi say something about him?

Rick: He may have. Whatever it was, he probably said something good.

John: Very positive, I thought.

Rick: Yeah. Highly revered. And he was a very simple man. He got enlightened at a young age, and he just basically stayed in one place for the rest of his life in Arunachala Mountain in Tiruvannamalai in South India. And everybody just started coming to him.

John: He’s the one they always see up in the mountains. That must be him. That must be the–

Rick: Yeah. And in any case, I forget who it was, either Papaji or Ramesh Balsakar, who were teachers in their own right.

John: Papaji is the one that was–

Rick: He was Gangaji’s teacher, and Andrew Cohen’s teacher, and a bunch of others, Nick Ardog, and a bunch of others. In any case, he was having these marvelous experiences where he would see Krishna, and he would interact with Krishna, and he would play with Krishna, and all this. And he managed to get an appointment with Ramana Maharishi, which was a difficult thing to do, because he was getting old.

John: Now, who was this that got this appointment?

Rick: It was either Papaji or Ramesh Balsakar.

John: OK, somebody– OK, somebody–

Rick: He managed to get this appointment to see him. And it was a difficult thing to do, because the guy was very famous at this point, and getting old, and not too many people could get close to him, and so on and so forth. So the appointment time arrived, and he hadn’t shown up. And all the people around Ramana Maharishi were buzzing with resentment, like, who does this guy think he is? So it’s such an insult. He hasn’t shown up on time, and it’s so hard to get these appointments, and so on and so forth. But finally, the guy shows up. And he said, oh, I’m sorry I was late, but I was playing with Krishna. And Ramana Maharshi said, is he here now? And it kind of knocked him back on his heels. And he had this awakening at that point, because he realized that the essence of spiritual awakening is not some flashy thing that you might have that you’re going to have sporadically. It’s something now, now, now, now, all the time. And anything else that might happen is icing on the cake. But that sort of perpetual, rock solid, unperturbable state of self-awareness, that’s the fort that Maharshi used to talk about when he talked about capturing the fort.

John: Yeah, interesting.

Rick: Yeah.

John: That is very interesting. Is he there now? What was his answer?

Rick: His answer was he woke up. Oh, that’s what he did. Yeah, that was the trigger that sort of–

John: The Mahavakya.

Rick: Yeah, yeah. So anyway, it goes on.

John: It does. It does. It goes on. Like I say, it keeps going like this.

Rick: And it’s a great adventure. So good. This is a good stopping point. It’s getting hot in here. God.

John: It is. By the way, it’s been a pleasure.

Rick: Yeah, thank you for coming in. John came in. I called him at noon today or something. I said, the people I had scheduled, I had a person and a backup person. The person got sick. The backup person drove to Des Moines. Can you come on short notice? And he said, what is it exactly? Oh, it’s television? Oh my god.

John: So I have a question for you. I mean, certainly I’ve had certain experiences. And like I said, I don’t claim them to be anything except experiences, what they are, whatever they are, they are. But what made you call me? Because I don’t remember–

Rick: Well, I’ve had you on my list for quite a while. Because you came to this Wednesday night satsang that we have a couple of years ago. And I heard you speak. And I thought, this guy is genuine. He’s got something going on. And so I put your name down on my list. I’ve got a whole list of people that I want to interview.

John: I can’t wait to hear them. Like I said, the most important person to me in this town is Steve Wynn. Well, next to my wife, of course. But I heard more from a romantic and a spiritual and romantic standpoint. But Steve, because he brought me here. And because he’s another person I resonate with.

Rick: Well, I’ll give you a DVD of his interview.

John: Yeah, I’d love to see it.

Rick: All right, well, thanks, John. So you’ve been watching Buddha at the Gas Pump. And in a minute, the titles will roll. And in those titles, you will see some credits of people that have been very instrumental in helping bring this whole thing about. One thing you’ll see, though, is this little URL of batgap.com, which is the blog that I created in order to be a sort of a springboard for all this. All the interviews are archived there in audio format at the moment, some of them in video. And there are links to other things related to this, such as the YouTube channel, the Facebook group, the Twitter page, and also some other groups that I find interesting that are similar in nature, like this Great Indigo Awakening that I mentioned, Urban Guru Cafe, some other sort of spiritual interview shows that you might enjoy. So check that out, batgap.com. I’ve been speaking with John Speer, who is Dean of Men at Maharishi University of Management. And it’s been a real pleasure. And since we acknowledge that this is an ever-evolving thing, we’ll do it again in a year or so. Wonderful. See what’s happened then.

John: Yeah, it’s been a pleasure.

Rick: Thank you for coming in.

John: Thank you.

Rick: Yeah.