Frank Kinslow Transcript

Frank Kinslow Interview

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of interviews with spiritually awake, or I’d rather say awakening people. It’s been going on for about five years now. We’ve done almost 300 of them, and if you go to batgap.com, you’ll see them all archived and categorized in various ways. You’ll also see a donate button, the clicking of which enables us to spend as much time as we do at this and expand it even further, so we appreciate your support. My guest today is Dr. Frank Kinslow. I want to start by saying that this week I had two synchronistic Kinslow events. The first was I was at a little potluck dinner last Sunday night, six days ago, and I was chatting with this young fellow, 22 years old, and asking him about his spiritual background. He said, “Well, I did Frank Kinslow’s work for quite some time, and then I decided to learn TM, and I came,” He’s studying at the local university here, studying Vedic science. So I thought, “Well, that was an interesting coincidence.” Then yesterday I was in the local library, and I was chatting with an old friend, and I was syncing my iPad, you know, uploading stuff to my Kindle app on my iPad, and she saw Frank Kinslow’s name. She said, “Oh, Frank Kinslow, he’s an old friend of mine.” Then she said, “When are you going to interview Frank Kinslow?” And I said, “Tomorrow.” That friend was Rae Bird, remember Rae?

Frank: Oh my gosh, yes, I sure do. You give Rae a big hug and a smooch from me.

Rick: I will, and she’ll probably be watching this. She may be watching it now, live. Rae kind of told me some stuff about you that I hadn’t picked up from anywhere else, so I thought, Well, this is significant that I ran into her. And I’ll see if I can squeeze some of this out of you. She was saying that you were on early courses in the TM movement, which I had known with Maharishi, and doing a lot of long meditations and rounding, and that you had really a profound level of experience. And Maharishi even had a little group of people that I guess they called the “Unity Group” or something, with Andy Rymer and some other people like that, and you were in this group, and had a lot of interaction, face time, with Maharishi, talking about your experience. But she said that in more recent years you have kind of declined to talk about that kind of stuff, she thought, because you have felt that flashy experiences are not that important or significant, and we shouldn’t emphasize them too much. So, was that a fair assessment?

Frank: I would say that talking about experiences is just fine under right circumstances. But most people, especially those who are just starting to explore expanded states of awareness, will tend to take them as having more meaning and actually get lost in them. And so, yeah, I play them down significantly.

Rick: I think it’s a catch-22 in a way, because on the one hand, we don’t want to dumb down the notion of awakening and say, “Oh, it’s just some simple calm state,” or something like that, because it can be very, very profound, and great mystics throughout history have reported all sorts of sublime, ecstatic experiences, which seem very real, we don’t want to trivialize those. But on the other hand, as you say, people can get all hung up in it and start comparing themselves with others, feeling bad because they are not having those experiences, or thinking that they’re really hot stuff because they are having them. So, how do you reconcile those?

Frank: Well, I wait until the students have the experience and then explain it. And that way they know, number one, they’re not mood-making, they’re not bringing the experience in through some need or desire. And that happens quite quickly with the process that I’ve developed. If we have a two-day workshop, usually by the end of the morning of the second day, people are having experiences where the environment is more friendly, there’s stillness or reflection of a kind of a universal love. They’ll feel that the boundaries are starting to dissolve a little bit, and then we can go in and discuss that a little bit. But when I take them into the third day of the workshop, then this experience becomes quite universal within the group, and we can go into the various levels of awareness and what you might expect. We talk about it in terms of our heart opening up, and when the heart opens up, the perceptions refine. The heart opens up even more. And so they can have an actual experience of this. Then when I explain it to them, certainly by their question, “Hey, Frank, by the way, I’m having this experience. Does it have value? It sure feels good.” Then that gives me the platform in order to expand and explain to the rest of the group.

Rick: Okay, well speaking of platforms, one thing I think is a valid question to ask anybody whom I interview is something about their own personal development, because anybody can talk, but people want to know what kind of foundation or platform the person they’re listening to has built upon which they are speaking and teaching. So in terms of your own personal experience, how did it progress for you? You were having flashy experiences back in the early 70s. How did those mature? Was there any kind of watershed moment where you shifted into what we would call an enlightened or awakened state? Things like that.

Frank: Well, I began having experiences right away when I started doing TM. That was, I think, ’68 or ’69. I can’t remember exactly. The experiences were more like memories, things that actually all of us have to some degree or another when we’re smaller, when we’re young. They just sort of get lost in the need to control and to grow from, say, infancy and childhood into adulthood.

Rick: What sort of memories?

Frank: Well, memories of absolute joy, unboundedness, nowhere to go, nothing to do, I’m fine just as it is, those kinds of things.

Rick: When you call them memories, does that imply that these were from some past life or something or other? I mean, memory usually pertains to something in the past.

Frank: Yeah, well, past from childhood, basically.

Rick: I see.

Frank: Yeah, and I don’t deal too much with past lives. I started as part of my progression spontaneously remembering past lives left and right. And as I did that, in this theater of fullness, they were just like memories. I mean, they had no particular value in and of themselves. So I don’t– in fact, as far as I’m concerned, there are no past lives. There’s only one life or oneness. We just sort of play in and out of that depending on our present circumstances. Now, back to the experiences. I was having a first, actually, what we would call unity experiences. But it would come and go, and I would drop down and then start witnessing and then have GC or the open heart and loving experiences.

Rick: Let’s just define those terms a little bit. Run through all three of them. So witnessing.

Frank: Okay, well, let me do it this way. We know that there’s four major states of awareness. And thanks to Dr. Wallace, who established that in 1970, we have that awareness of pure awareness or pure awareness state is a major state of awareness. Different from, say, hypnosis or daydreaming, that sort of thing. So you have waking, dreaming, sleeping, and pure awareness.

Rick: Right, which the Vedas actually called turiya, which means fourth.

Frank: Yeah, oh, okay. I didn’t know that.

Rick: Yeah, it means fourth state.

Frank: Right. Okay. So then when you have that pure awareness, it’s okay. There’s a lot of healing that goes on, a lot of readjusting, but it’s sort of isolated. It’s just out there. It doesn’t really bring in the fullness of life. So what happens is we start to experience a merging, if you will, of this separate state of pure awareness and everything else in life. As I started to experience pure awareness, if you will, reflecting back from the environment and inspiring events even in the environment, I became more interested in the stillness behind it all rather than how it manifests. R ; What do you mean pure awareness inspiring events?

Frank: Well, we tend to look at it in terms of objects, you know, oh, is pure awareness reflecting back from this object or that object so we see these things? We don’t look at it in terms of an event. How is pure awareness there in the past and in the future? I mean, when you start to see these coming together like this, then the past and the future dissolve. So when you start to see it in the events that you attribute to the past or the future, it stays, but it dissolves in importance or fades in importance. So what we actually start to experience is a fullness or a wholeness or an expansion of, you know, it’s not the individual self. Oh, I’m five seven, and I’m, you know, this, I weigh this much, and I have this history. It’s that stillness that’s always been there. If you, if you think of it, when we were a child, you know, and you’re playing with a stick in the dirt and, and then you’re just at peace, you know, there’s this sort of, I am just playing around. Then, you know, as an adult, that, that same stillness or I, I-ness is still there. It transcends the body, which was an infant’s body or a child’s body or an adolescent’s body. And, and so what, what happens then is, is we find this awareness starts to seep into everything that we are and do. And that includes the activity, which is often left out and not realized. This is one of the first things that, that my, that people come to the workshops, my workshops experience is this, this shift from doing to being, and then being involved from the level of not doing. I don’t know if that makes sense, but it’s an experience that, that we actually start dealing with by the second day of the workshop. Based on that experience, then we, I provide them refined techniques, if you will, to have a more refined perception. So I guess we could explain it this way and get a pretty good overview. There are, there are five paths to enlightenment. When I talk about enlightenment, it’s very simple. It can be explained very easily. Enlightenment is simply the awareness of what is while it is. That’s as abstract as you can get, but the experience or the reflection of that in our lives comes as we just feel more in tune with life. We get along better with others. We’re more creative. We could come up with a solution to the world problems in 5, 10 minutes if we wanted to. In fact, if you were to read a theory Z, Maslow’s theory Z, which you could probably pick up a copy online if you Google it. Just make sure it’s from him and not some adulteration. He has about 24 or 5 different paragraphs where he explains very precisely what it is for a human being that he calls a transcendent. What they experienced in terms of, you know, anger or how they interact with others, how they see business and so on and so forth. Now, once we have those five levels or paths, if you will, to enlightenment, and we know one of them would be devotional. Unfortunately these days it’s more emotional than devotional. Two would be intellectual. Advaita is, is a good indication of that. That’s where we, we take the intellect and we just start dividing everything down until there’s nothing left. Physical, you know, twisting, bending, breathing, that sort of thing. And then mechanical. And that would be japa or yantras or mantras. Then there’s a fifth one that, that I call perceptual. This is where the technique that I teach fits in. The others take time, take a little time. Perceptual is immediate. When you, when you perceive something, you automatically have a reaction, both physiologically and psychologically. For instance, if you were to hear screeching brakes and you see a car hit a dog, okay, then physiologically, you know, eyes would dilate, adrenaline would start pumping in, cardiac output would increase, muscles would tension, get ready for fight or flight. Psychologically, there’d be some sort of agitation there. Then think about perceiving a sunset, for instance, automatically and without effort, we feel more peaceful in the mind and the body becomes more relaxed. You don’t have to do anything that’s already built into us. So what I discovered was a way to perceive inner self, but the first reflection of it, not really pure awareness. We actually go through pure awareness and then experience that finest level of mental activity, which is very joyful, very entertaining to the mind. Pure awareness itself, the mind could care less about, you know, what does it know or want to know about nothing.

Rick: So let me just kind of, if I don’t ask a question, I’ll forget because you’re throwing out so many things. So we go, there are a number of things you just said, and I want to come back to some of them. But the most recent thing you said, “Through pure awareness to the finest level of mental activity.” But I presume what you’re implying is that although pure awareness is beyond the finest level of mental activity, we somehow don’t just take refuge there but entertain, but somehow begin to operate just above that, at the finest level of mental activity, where there’s actually still something going on, right?

Frank: Yes, absolutely.

Rick: Okay.

Frank: Yeah, it’s, see, the beauty of is that it requires no effort to maintain a state of expanded awareness. The mechanics that you just described are it. We actually must transcend or go through pure awareness first. Then when we come out, instead of returning to activity in our daily lives, we maintain a very quiet state. Now, this level I call “eu-feeling.”

Rick: Right.

Frank: And eu-feeling.

Rick: “e-u”

Frank: “e-u,” right.

Rick: Which means good.

Frank: Good or truth.

Rick: Right. And also in the spirit of Hans Selye, eu” as in euphoric.

Rick: Right.

Frank: So, once the mind perceives eu-feeling, it wants to stay there. It’s not an effort. It’s not something you have to keep coming back to.

Rick: Right. And this harkens back to Maharishi’s principle of natural tendency of the mind, that the mind seeks a field of greater happiness and that every living being is kind of entrained or imbued with that tendency, right?

Frank: Absolutely. I mean, all of life we move away from pain towards pleasure. And this is it. The mind is not interested, unless you stoke it up intellectually, is not interested in nothing. It needs something, some sort of boundaries to attach to.

Rick: One thought that comes to mind is that in the yogic tradition there are these five sheaths or koshas, they’re called. The subtlest sheath is said to be anandamaya kosha, which is the bliss sheath. It’s said that you have to penetrate that or even go beyond that in order for full realization to take place. So, the question comes to mind, are you somehow teaching people to get hung up in the bliss sheath and not go beyond it as might be necessary for full realization?

Frank: That’s a very good question. You have to look at this in terms of a, well, the people who come to my workshops are from every walk of life. They’re not “spiritual beings” in that sense. They’re looking for spiritual enlightenment. They come to learn a healing technique. Because what happens is when we experience eu-feeling, we find that the healing takes place at a very rapid and deep rate. Not only in yourself, but in others. So, you know, you get things like shoulder problems and sprained ankles that will heal in a matter of minutes sometimes just by experiencing eu-feeling.

Rick: You know what, I should probably, without interrupting you, I should probably let you lay out the things you teach. You know, there’s this eu-stillness and there’s a nothingness thing and there’s eu-feeling, because you’re alluding to those things. I haven’t given you a chance to properly explain them. So why don’t you take as much time as you like to just lay out what it is you’re teaching so that when you refer to them, it’ll be in a context that people understand.

Frank: Okay, and actually we can just pick up from what we were just saying here. hat is that experience of eu-feeling is analogous in physics to the quantum vacuum, the vacuum state or zero point. It’s where everything starts to move and then, but just before it starts. It’s still not pure awareness. There is some bending going on. And I’ll give you an analogy in a few minutes to help that once we know the various states. But when someone comes in to learn QE or Quantum Entrainment, they want to learn a healing technique. Well, it really isn’t a healing technique. We’re not moving energy. We’re not doing anything. We are simply taking the awareness to its finest level, pure awareness, and then allowing it to become slightly active. And when that happens, it’s very harmonious and very healing. And so this very simple technique that actually you don’t even need to go to a workshop. You can read the book, learn it right out of a book. My books have been translated into more than 25 different languages. It even works when it’s translated.

Rick: And you also have some audio recordings that a person could download.

Frank: Yes, yes, yes. And what that means is that this is a natural tendency. This is something that’s already built into the human being. As I said before, it’s talking about perception. It is simply perceiving eu-feeling that makes the difference. You don’t have to try to hold it. You don’t have to try to get it.

Rick: I think you need to still define “eu-feeling” more thoroughly.

Frank: Ah, “eu-feeling” is, well, there are gradations of “eu-feeling.” The person that walks into the workshop the first day will learn to perceive “eu-feeling” as an expression of peace or joy or love, contentment, a sense of wideness or expansion, lightness, those kinds of things.

Rick: Right, so in other words, if we tune in, we notice that some of those nice things are already there. We’ve just been overlooking them, right?

Frank: That’s exactly right. And they’re always there, always have been. And so basically it’s like I’m tapping them on the shoulder and say, “Look, you’re looking for enlightenment or you’re looking for more money or you’re looking for a better relationship, looking in this direction.” I just simply say, “Well, turn around here first. Let’s look at this first. Feel that joy, feel that peace, that sense of stillness. That, then, is your foundation. Now when you go back out and you want to improve your relationships or your work situation, you’re going to do it from a more effective level.” That’s so easily attained that it is really the way us humans should function.

Rick: Okay, now I said I wasn’t going to interrupt you, but on this easily attained point, you and I both spent years on long courses, six months at a time, doing hours and hours and hours of meditation a day. It was very powerful, very profound, and very transformational. You come out of one of those courses and you feel like you’ve gone from a rusty old Volkswagen to a new Cadillac or something. But really, we put in the time. And there was a lot of intense stuff going on too. It wasn’t just all bliss and light. There was very often a lot of what Maharishi used to call “unstressing,” just normalization of the nervous system and with its corresponding mental gyrations that that would put you through. And so now you’re saying that people can walk into a weekend workshop and within a day, it sounds like you’re saying, be experiencing what it took us years of practice to experience. Actually, you also seem to be implying that they’re even stabilizing it in that short of time.

Frank: Not stabilizing it, no, but definitely experiencing it.

Rick: Okay.

Frank: It was what we used to call in the movement “CC” or “Cosmic Consciousness.” They’re having glimpses. They’re having glimpses of it. And I do not teach this at all. We’re focusing, remember, on healing. But simply by shifting the perception from whatever to this eu-feeling. And once they do that, it’s automatic. So you’ve heard of individuals becoming “instantaneously enlightened.”

Rick: Right.

Frank: So there’s no reason that they can’t be at least for short periods of time experience this state.

Rick: Well, and I think you and I both did also on our very first day when we learned to meditate, there was that immediate, “Ah, this is it.” But then it’s a long haul to totally integrate it into your relative life.

Frank: Well, you know, it becomes a long haul. And this is one thing that I discovered when I was 61 years old. It becomes a long haul only when you’ve made it that. I kept looking for inner peace to be stabilized and applauded those individuals who had. But then I watched these, even the greatest saints, you know, you look at their history and they get angry at people. They have affairs. They watch TV, drink Coca-Cola. Even the Dalai Lama, he says, “Yeah, I get mad. I just don’t stay mad very long.” So this idea of slow walking, slow talking, and peace, I don’t think that is accurate. I don’t think that’s it. So what happens is we start to play our own music, if you will, as if we were a unique instrument in all of creation. And most of the time we’re giving it away. Even while I was practicing TM and teaching as a governor of the Age of Enlightenment, I was fitting within certain parameters which weren’t quite natural for me. And my own fault. But the way I saw life. I was playing someone else’s music. So what happened was at age 61, I won’t go into the details of it, but I had occasion to bottom out, if you will, financially, in terms of my health, and even spiritually at this point. I’m saying, you know, “what’s going on?” And so I sat on my couch, it ended up for being three days, and I just started throwing out what didn’t work. And at the end of three days, nothing worked. You know, it was just like, I know that doesn’t work, that won’t work, that never did work. So I started to get depressed and say, what am I going to do? And I said, there’s nothing I can do. And as soon as I did this, an incredible peace overwhelmed me. Not like I had had before. That was a peace within parameters. This was a remarkable realization that there is nothing to do and nowhere to go.

Rick: Interesting. How old are you now, by the way?

Frank: Pardon me?

Rick: How old are you now?

Frank: I’m 69.

Rick: Okay. It reminds me of that verse in the Gita where Arjuna is saying, “I’m going to do it this way, I’m going to do it this way.” Then finally he gives up. In his commentary, Maharishi says that as long as a man feels like he can do it for himself, that he keeps on trying. But at a certain point, surrender happens and he gives it over to a higher intelligence.

Frank: Well, you know, and that’s exactly what we, many of us, when we were teaching TM, were striving for “enlightenment.” We saw, we had all the parameters, and that really boxed us in. So these people coming to me aren’t looking for enlightenment. Then they start tasting it, you know, and just naturally, without any effort, just by doing those simple, simple things or perceiving that simple experience.

Rick: Well, that’s how a lot of people got into TM too. We were saying, “Hey, release your stress, improve your health, you have better relationships.” We don’t talk much about enlightenment. Then they come in, they have this profound experience and think, whoa, what’s this all about? Tell me about this.

Frank: Well, once they have that experience in the basic or first day and the second day, then I offer a third day. And this is so fast. I mean, I only have three workshops. And we’re talking about what we talk about as a unity experience. I’ll build up to that. The third day now, they know they can become aware of eu-feeling on a certain level. That is its expression. Very quiet level in the mind. The third day, I teach them a thing called QE intention. That is how to have a desire from this very quiet level. You know it as Ritambhara Prajna And what we do then is I introduce, because they’ve had two days of this experience, this refined awareness, this experience in activity. Remember, we’re not sitting in meditation. Not at all. They’re having this with their eyes open while they’re moving. And so it stabilizes very quickly. So now I introduce them to pure eu-feeling. Probably the best way to explain this to the audience is if I have a prism and I shine pure light through the prism, it then breaks up into the colors of the rainbow. Orange, indigo, violet, yellow, red, blue, green. All right. Now, eu-feeling as its first perceived is the colors. Orange, indigo, violet, yellow, or peace, joy, love, compassion. That’s the reflections. When the pure light goes in, before it breaks into the colors of the rainbow, it starts, the white light starts to bend. It needs to bend in the way to become violet or orange. It’s still white light, but it’s not pure white light because there’s some movement there. In the mind, that’s what I call pure eu-feeling. It is the first glimmering of individuality and yet it is still unbounded, if you will. It has a foot in both worlds. So once we experience that, then we learn how to have an innocent desire from that level.

Rick: But isn’t it spontaneous? I mean, don’t you just, if you’re at that level, you’re going to be having desires anyway, you always do. Wouldn’t you just sort of have them or is there actually something that needs to be taught to have them in a specific way?

Frank: Well, remember, these people are now three days old. Okay. And they’re still working with the Newtonian classical physical laws of cause and effect. We have shifted them in actually in one hour or let’s say within the first half of the day, we have shifted them into a quantum mechanical probability oriented world. Even though they can experience it, do it easily, it’s quite natural for them. The minds haven’t caught up with it yet. They’re still living in the cause and effect world. And so how we teach that, you always have to approach the student where they are. And so we say whatever your desire is, you want more money, you want a better relationship, you want a new car. Okay. Then let’s just take that desire to pure eu-feeling. Let’s just allow that to settle into that. And immediately their desire is fulfilled.

Rick: A new car comes crashing through the wall? Oh no, well that’s emotionally or in terms of the desire itself. Now how that manifests outwardly would take a little time to explain in terms of probabilities and that sort of thing. In other words, you’re going to get more than you desire on the everyday level, which I call common consciousness.

Rick: Hang on a second now, so firstly, what if a new car is not what you really need, but it’s just some kind of, you know, you have this desire for a Tesla or a Ferrari or something. Secondly, we were talking earlier, I think it was before we actually started broadcasting, about your disillusionment with the Law of Attraction and how you kind of dropped that and so your publisher dropped you. But this is beginning to sound a lot like the Law of Attraction.

Frank: Well, it does. It sounds exactly like it, except it’s totally opposite. Right. With the Law of Attraction, which, by the way, does not exist in science anywhere. It is not a law. Somebody made this up and then they built some fabrication around it about manifesting from the laws of the universe. And what that is, is first of all, you have this desire, then you do something, you gather, you know, you do your intention work, whatever that is.

Rick: Put little post-it notes on your bathroom mirror. Yeah, or even more than that, you start building, like if you want your dream home, then you start building your dream home. You know, you know what the shutters are going to be, what the front door looks like. OK, all this work into it and then you’ve got to add emotion to it. So you really got to stoke up that desire for it. As if that was all going to make the difference, what we do with the QE intention is we allow whatever that desire is. Let’s say you want your dream home. And let’s pick something that’s really. Let’s say that you want this job, this promotion coming up. Really, really want this. You can feel it. So when you do QE intention, you just what you do is you first experience this, this pure eu-feeling. And from that level, then you just simply have the idea of the promotion or the desire and then let it go. And immediately the desire, that thing that’s pushing you, dissolves. See, so in one in the Law of Attraction or in positive thinking, you work your way towards it and your desire is fulfilled when you get the object of your desire. Here, what we do is we know that the object will not fulfill their desire. It will never fulfill their basic desire for inner peace or joy or love. But in fact, it is pure eu-feeling in this case. So what we do as soon as we experience pure eu-feeling, then the desire of all desires is fulfilled. From that level now, they are free to allow it to manifest in any way it will. Will it come? Well, the chances of it happening are better than if they had done work from common consciousness out of fear, fear driven. This is just at peace. And basically, they accept what comes. They become accepting of the situation. It’s really a beautiful way to go after this desire. Now, free of this worry and control, they’re more likely to get it, get this raised. Or if they are not supposed to have it–see, we can have a desire for something that’s not good for us– you will tend to allow that to erode so it falls away as a desire if it’s not good for you. So there’s a lot going on on this level that has nothing to do with our control. Once we release that control and allow the probability to take over from and more orderly or organized state. We could we could look at it this way. Let’s take our iron filings, put them on a piece of paper. OK. And you bring a magnet to them. You know, they line up again along the lines of force. Well, working on common consciousness through our traditional Law of Attraction, for instance, or belief programs or intention programs. It’s like taking those filings and adjusting them and then just sitting back and let’s say there are a million fibers, I mean filings, and you try to adjust a few of them in and then hope the rest will will line up to get you what you want. As opposed to bringing the magnet. Magnet is eu-feeling. And this is a very…we see it. The new student sees it right away because they meet a perfect stranger who has, let’s say, for 20 years has had a neck problem and can’t turn their head so far. They do QE and two or three minutes later, their head is moving normally again. They see how this orderly orderliness works physiologically. So now we just move it in to the realm of the psychology of the mind. Then they start to see it work first by by fulfilling the desire. Then after that, without this push, this desire that comes out of fear, we’re now moving out of this very quiet state that allows it to come if it will or if it’s supposed to. If it’s not, then something better will come. That’s a very beautiful point.

Rick: Yeah, there’s a real subtle consideration in this, you know, because I mean, people have desires all the time that they probably shouldn’t fulfill, but maybe they should. And how do you know? And how do you know if this particular desire, let’s say you want to be with such and such a person, and it seems like you really should be and you really want to be and everything. But, you know, let’s say you end up with them and six months down the line, you realize it was a big mistake. But, you know, so what you’re saying is somehow you get down to this level and you maybe entertain the desire, “I want to be with this person,” but then you drop it or surrender it. In doing that, I’m just reiterating, and you can correct me if I haven’t gotten this right, but in doing that you have kind of set up the conditions for the fulfillment of that if it’s meant to be fulfilled. But at the same time, since you’ve dropped it or surrendered it, you’re open to it not being fulfilled because there’s a larger intelligence that knows whether or not that is really what you need.

Frank: Well, yes, and remember, fulfillment on the psychological level has already been attained. We’re only talking on the material level after that.

Rick: Yeah, so in other words, you have the fulfillment that would be had were you to actualize that relationship, even whether or not you get that relationship, you’ve already got the fulfillment.

Frank: Exactly.

Rick: You’ve already got the goal before you even get the material.

Frank: That’s what I mean when we turn everything upside down. Instead of working towards and getting the goal, we just experience the goal first.

Rick: And then they can enjoy whatever happens after that.

Frank: Yeah.

Rick: This is all very reminiscent of what Maharishi called the TM Siddhi Program, of course.

Frank: Yes, of course. Then once they have had that course, they can take a two-day workshop, which I call the “Eu-stillness” workshop. This is to actually perceive this pure eu-feeling in activity, in things, in space, in their daily life. This I’m very excited about. We’ve just been teaching it now for less than a year. And the results are quite remarkable. And again, these are people who are ignorant to “states of awareness,” higher states of enlightenment for the most part. These are medical doctors, psychologists, physical therapists, single moms, and so on and so forth. We have a lot of professionals, but we also have a lot of people who are just there for whatever reason.

Rick: I was going to ask, obviously, when you offer a group, how many people come to your group things ordinarily?

Frank: Well, that will depend. We started out in Germany, and we were having 400 or so at a workshop. In fact, the first time – I’ll tell you, this is a great story. I published the first book, “The Secret of Instant Healing,” in the United States. I self-published, couldn’t find a publisher. A German publisher called me and said, “We’d like to publish it in Germany.” I said, “Well, fine.” I didn’t know anything about Germany or whatever, but go ahead. I said, “I just don’t know if translated into another language, the technique will work.” He says, “Well, we’ll be very diligent about making that happen.” Now, the book was due to come out in the middle of February 2009. This was in the fall of 2008. He says, “You know, I’m going to come to the U.S. and learn your technique. I’m very interested in this.” Now, this is a man who has set up the biggest applied kinesiology school in the world. He’s not just a publisher, but he started out… He’s a doctor, what’s called a chiropractica. They have medical doctors, and then they have doctors who are in charge of all of the natural healing. He comes over and he learns it, and then he says to me, “You know, would you be interested in coming to Germany and teaching a workshop?” I said, “Yeah, but I’m flat broke, and you’re going to have to pay my way over and back and get me a place to stay.” He said, “Well, you know, we need about 40 or 50 people, and then that’s enough to pay you over and get you back, and you can stay with my wife and I,” and so on. I said, “Okay.” Now, we set it up for the following October. That would be 2009, October. The book came out in mid-February 2009. Two weeks later, it went to number one in natural healing on Amazon.de. It actually went to number six out of all the books, out of the millions of books they have. It stayed in the top 100 for a year and a half. It just took off. It was just crazy. Now, the Germans are not Americans. They look at things a little differently. By the time we got there now, he said, well, as we were going, he said, “You know, we filled up this one workshop. Can you come for a second week?” I said, “Yes.” Then he said, “You know, that one filled up. Can you teach in between the weekends?” I said, “Yes.” Then he said, “Frankfurt called. They want you.” Long story short, we ended up with seven workshops. I’m thinking seven workshops with 50, 40 or 50 people in it. Well, it turned out to be seven workshops with 400 plus in each one. It was just phenomenal. These were all people from all walks of life, as I said before. The teaching was just–I mean, it stayed like that for three years. We were just sold out.

Rick: In Germany?

Frank: Yes, in Germany. Then it spread from there.

Rick: Which is good because it shows that, obviously, it worked for the people, or word of mouth would have killed it.

Frank: Then it spread from there, and we go now to Asia, Japan. We were in Kazakhstan just recently. We travel eight weeks twice a year, and each week we hit a different country in Europe or Asia. We keep busy that way. Our numbers are smaller now, but the interest is still growing.

Rick: Great. Well, if you were to break it down among all the people that come to your workshops into percentages, there must be a spectrum of people who, on the one hand, people who don’t get it at all and think they wasted their time, and on the other end, people who are totally blown away, and it’s fantastic. So, I mean, how would you segment that spectrum in terms of levels of success and results?

Frank: Yeah, this is pretty amazing because we don’t collect the data. The people who sponsor us in these workshops, they have the questionnaires in them. There are some criticisms at times about maybe you spoke too long, maybe you had too many exercises, maybe this or that, but we haven’t had a failure at this point due to the teaching. We go very, very simply from the concrete to the abstract, very slowly, step by step. Now, that’s not to say that there weren’t people who didn’t get it at the end but didn’t say it, but we haven’t seen that yet. So it really is quite phenomenal that I’m going to say 95% — and I think that’s a little conservative — of these people get it, can do it, because it’s not a technique that requires any specific talent, any kind of training. You already have everything you need to perceive, right? I mean, you see and you hear and you taste. And so we use these avenues, these senses, and we just stimulate them in a different way and you have the experience. And it’s a very scientific technique, three steps to begin with. Then we take two away, so it ends up being a one-step process.

Rick: And remind us of what that one step is?

Frank: Oh, just become aware of eu-feeling. But in the beginning, we’re taking — I don’t know where people are starting from. For instance, if you and I were to work, I wouldn’t bother with the three-step. We would just go to the one step. I know from your training and your experiences that you wouldn’t — but we don’t know where people are starting from. So we start very physically and we have them touch, and then they pay attention to what they’re touching. But by the beginning of the second day, we get rid of the touching and they just allow to experience it in their mind.

Rick: As you know, with TM, a vast majority of people who learned it dropped off and don’t do it anymore.

Frank: Yeah. And so what do you think your retention rate is? I don’t know, but I suspect it’s about the same.

Rick: A lot of people drop off?

Frank: Yeah. And that’s just the way it is. I have no way of knowing that. As far as I know, none of the promoters are doing that follow-up or doing that kind of research.

Rick: Do you attempt to offer any kind of follow-up program to reinforce people and check their experience?

Frank: No, I don’t even offer that. And we started to do that. We started to certify QE practitioners. It became such a headache. Now, this technique is copied like crazy. So we had a lot of trouble policing. Sure, if you’re going to do this technique, don’t call it QE. Put your own name there, whatever, because, of course, they were adulterating it.

Rick: Right.

Frank: So we found that some of our practitioners were doing that, and we spent a lot of time and money and effort just watching all of this stuff. So I just said, “The heck with it. Let’s make it grassroots. It goes or it doesn’t based on the people.” So then I wrote a book called “The Kinslow System,” and it included all of the techniques in it, all of the exercises, and additional information on how to set up your own practice group, and so on and so forth. So now we just have a book that they can read. I’m not one for cracking the whip. They’re either going to get it and go with it or not.

Rick: Yeah. So how would you answer the question of, “If something is so good and beneficial and healthy and healing and restful and enjoyable and everything else, why wouldn’t a person continue to do it?” You could give us such an answer, but you’re the one who’s being interviewed. So how would you explain it?

Frank: Well, it is human nature, you know. First of all, this experience is so immediate, so natural, so easy, that it just flabbergasts me that people wouldn’t continue. They can do it while they’re driving. They can do it while they’re talking, while they’re cooking. It’s not like they have to set time aside. Even with TM, it was so simple and beautiful, but you had to actually sit down and do it. This you can do while you’re moving around.

Rick: Is there an advantage to also doing some sitting phase of it?

Frank: Yes, of course. And that intensifies the experience. I have what I call a 90-day program, and we have a forum on the website. The website is at kinslowsystem.com. There’s a forum on there, and many of the people will do the 90-day program, and they’ll start together, and then they’ll talk about the experiences as they go through it and that sort of thing. So it’s kind of a fun thing. But the program is not like an exercise program or a diet. We say if it isn’t easy and it isn’t fun, it isn’t QE. And so the 90-day program has to be easy and fun. And the person starting out, they sort of tailor-make it. There’s so many different exercises that they can draw from that they only have to do a few of them in order to get the benefits. One of those is suggested as a sit-down technique.

Rick: I know with TM, one of the reasons people stop is that they start introducing a lot of effort into it, and they begin to strain, and then it’s unpleasant, and they don’t feel like doing it anymore. So you say if it isn’t easy and it isn’t — I forget the way you phrased it, but if it isn’t fun, then it isn’t right? What did you say?

Frank: It isn’t QE.

Rick: It isn’t QE. So have you experienced that people have a tendency to muddle it up by making an effort where effort isn’t needed?

Frank: Yes, absolutely. But it doesn’t seem to be as big a problem as teaching TM. Because you’re focusing on a single entity, a mantra, and in this case you’re simply becoming aware — for instance, if we were doing a session and you were going to work on my shoulder that’s not moving so well, you would do QE simply by becoming aware of eu-feeling and nothing else. You’re not going to do anything for my shoulder. That is very easy to see because as soon as you start wishing that the shoulder gets better or wondering what the person is going to think about you if it doesn’t work, you get that immediate feedback. What you do, it’s very simple just to go back to eu-feeling and experience eu-feeling and not be involved in the healing at all. In fact, that’s why I don’t call it a healing technique even though it’s promoted as such. It’s a technique to experience eu-feeling, to experience pure awareness and then come out and become aware of eu-feeling. That’s all. That’s what QE is. So when they do that, they have that idea and they do that, very quickly they see they don’t get results, person doesn’t heal. I’ll just stop, I’ll just become aware of eu-feeling now. And they do it right away, like in seconds. So they’re getting more feedback. It’s not an internal feedback, they’re getting external and more objective feedback.

Rick: So you just used an example of a particular situation where someone has a bad shoulder and you’re using eu-feeling to help them with their shoulder. Does eu-feeling or this whole, whatever, everything you teach, always have such a specific adaptation or is it, you know, I mean…

Frank: Let me help you with it. You said using eu-feeling to heal the shoulder. You see, that implies that you’re doing something to the shoulder and you’re using eu-feeling to do it. That’s not how it works. We become aware of eu-feeling and we’re done. We don’t do anything else after that. That’s it. Just by being in proximity to that person and that person needing… See, you could call it sympathetic resonance, if you would. You know, if I’m angry and I’m throwing a tantrum near you, your body will react in a negative way or in a fight or flight way. If I’m peaceful, the opposite happens. When you experience eu-feeling, it’s so deep and so harmonizing, you don’t have to say, “Okay, shoulder heal.” You don’t even have to have an intention. You don’t even have to know what’s wrong with that person. They can use… It could be an emotional concern and they keep it to themselves. In fact, they learn this by the afternoon of the first day we do emotional QE. The partner doesn’t tell the person who does the QE what’s wrong with them. They just give them a pre-test of 0 to 10. Then they do QE and it gets better. See, so there’s no pushing of energy. There’s no controlling. There’s no… If nothing happens, that’s okay too because many times it takes the body two, three days. We’ve had people respond after a week. Maybe I’m thinking of one woman had tinnitus for 30 years and she had an 8 out of 10. It was just very… It bothered her a lot. It was… Nothing happened during the time she was at the workshop. Then she… Three days later we heard from her and it was down to a one. It just, you know. So, it’s that kind of a thing.

Rick: Yeah. So, presumably then, if what you’re saying is true, then when people go home from these workshops and start practicing this at home, their family members should start miraculously or spontaneously recovering from various problems.

Frank: Yeah, yeah, yeah. And we see that.

Rick: Yeah.

Frank: Of course, I’m developing a new workshop. It’s the three that I have now go more deeply into experiencing eu-feeling and stillness, what we call eu-stillness. That is the stillness that comes while you’re out moving around. It’s like pure eu-feeling outside, not inside the mind, but all around. Now, I’ve gone back and I’m creating a workshop that is simply practicing QE, allowing the healing aspect to take place, what to experience, how it works. Now, QE doesn’t do the healing. So, but if you did a healing technique, if you did healing touch, quantum touch, Reiki, if you did QE first, that technique is going to be more efficient and more effective. And then, I mean, people have responded with cancer, with Alzheimer’s, with all sorts of problems. We had…it is very interesting. Oh, and even in pets, I have to say that too. So, it’s not a matter of, you know, a placebo effect here. I got an email from, he was Italian, who read the first book and did QE for a friend of his who had been in a wheelchair for 15 years and could not move her hands or legs or body. She was just, just could move her head and she was very depressed. So, he did QE with her. We don’t say to her or for her, but with her. He did QE the first, and he did them for five or seven minutes each time. Then, he, after the third one, the third session, her depression lifted. After the seventh one, she could move her hands and her legs. And then he kept doing the sessions. And by the 17th or 18th one, she could actually get out of the chair herself and do some of her basic things. Now, you know, is it everybody in a wheelchair who does QE? No. But in this case, it was what she needed to heal. So we’re simply offering the body everything that it needs, at least the best situation for the body to do the healing. It’ll either be able to do it or it won’t, or do it in part.

Rick: Yeah, and you don’t want to sound too much like a miracle cure thing, you know, people throwing away their crutches, because I’m sure there are many cases where people end up dying of cancer or not getting out of the wheelchair and all. You’re just saying, if the particular problem can be aided by deep rest and the kind of energy that this generates, then at least you’re contributing that, you’re kind of giving it that advantage.

Frank: Yeah, yeah, we’re giving it every chance. See, the healer doesn’t heal, the technique doesn’t heal. It’s this orderliness that comes from, we know, pure consciousness or pure awareness. But by the time it manifests, and we’re not giving direction to it, we’re just allowing it. There really is an intention, but it’s implied. Obviously, if someone comes to you with the cancer, then and you do QE, the implication is that you want that condition to heal. So you don’t have to do anything else, because the more specific you are, the more limiting you are. And so QE will go after, I mean, the organization, the harmony that’s created by first, the person who does QE experiences eu-feeling, then the person there with sympathetically settles down experiences this eu-feeling with them. And now their body will heal. So will the other person, but their body will take that and use that in the best way possible and on a priority basis. So let’s say they have a shoulder, if the shoulder doesn’t respond, that energy that was created may go to healing cancer that’s starting to develop in the liver.

Rick: Yeah, I think priority basis is important. I mean, the body has an intelligence that is so far beyond individual intelligence that, I mean, if you had to conduct your digestive process consciously, or your heart rate, or any of these other things that happen, you’d be dead in seconds. So there’s a kind of nature’s intelligence functioning in the body, and what you’re suggesting, I believe, is kind of harnessing nature’s intelligence, letting it run the show more than it might have been.

Frank: Yeah, not even harnessing, that’s too strict a word.

Rick: Yeah, that’s like you’re controlling it, more like attuning to it.

Frank: Yeah. Somehow the awareness enlivens it, allows it to have its healing effect. So it’s quite amazing to see the changes taking place. I mean, I discovered this technique, I don’t know, in 2007, something like that, and I’ve been teaching it to thousands of people all over the world, and hearing from thousands more who just read the books. I’m still in awe of it, it just amazes me that this simple little shift in awareness can create so many changes so quickly and so deeply in our lives.

Rick: Yeah. Now a lot of people who listen to this show, although everybody could use some healing and this and that, and could use some fulfillment of their desires and so on, a lot of people, their real motivation is enlightenment or awakening.

Frank: Yeah.

Rick: And discussions such as we’ve been having might elicit a few yawns, because they really want to get down to the real nitty-gritty, and self-realization, liberation, that kind of thing. I realize that, I think you’ve already said that many of your audiences, they don’t really have that motivation, but how would you speak to those who do?

Frank: Well, the ones who continue on to the advanced workshops actually do have that, whether they know it or not. And I really like to look at it in terms of maybe Maslow, it’s probably the simplest paradigm or construct. That is that we’re either fear-driven, deficiency-oriented, or we are driven by fullness. We are aware of, we don’t feel like there’s a deficiency. Here, let me kind of draw what I would do in the second day of a workshop, kind of draw it in the air for you. Here we have a line, and here’s pure awareness, above that, right at that line is pure eu- feeling, which is just pure awareness beginning to become something. And then we have eu-feeling, the colors of the rainbow, peace, joy, love. Now, awareness of any of that is going to take us away from fear-driven motivation. Let’s follow this a little bit further. So we have awareness of eu-feeling. We could consider ourselves at that point enlightened, right? It’s real simple. Now_

Rick: Depending on how you define it.

Frank: Well, if we’re using Maslow’s hierarchy. In other words, here, we can define it this way. Let’s just say you’re not fear-driven, all right? Which means now that there’s no need to go anywhere or do anything. You are simply one. You feel content right where you are. This is a certain level of inner peace. I know it flies in the face of conventional thinking. And people say, “Well, how long does it take to clear your mind of thought?” We can do it in seconds. Stop your thinking in seconds.

Rick: Well, seconds later, aren’t there new thoughts kind of bubbling in?

Frank: Well, sure there are. But the thing is, to have that, see, awareness, pure awareness is always there. Has to be, right? By definition. No boundaries, so it’s everywhere all the time. So just becoming aware of it. You don’t walk around in pure awareness all the time. You have to have pure awareness while thoughts are going on. So that’s what we’re talking about. What happens then is there’s fear. Let’s just say fear is eliminated because I’m going to refer to the Gita here. Krishna says, “Fear is born of duality.”

Rick: Upanishads, actually.

Frank: Upanishads. I thought that was, certainly, Krishna said.

Rick: Maharishi mentions it in the introduction of the Gita, but it’s actually from the Upanishads.

Frank: Thank you very much.

Rick: Don’t mean to be an intellectual snob

Frank: No, no, no. You’re not, really. I hate to misquote anything. So Upanishads then, “Fear is born of duality.” All right. So what that means is that, of course, what is unity? Instead of looking at duality, before we look at that, what is unity? Well, it’s awareness of unboundedness. That’s what we have when we have awareness of eu-feeling. Now, when we lose experience or awareness of eu-feeling, now we separate. We have this two. We have I am, and it is. As soon as we lose awareness of eu-feeling, I’m not going to say pure awareness because it doesn’t even have to…the pure awareness is integrated in eu-feeling. So it’s lively within there. But it’s not dominant in that awareness. So when we’re aware of eu-feeling, we’re at peace. We’re full. We’re content. We don’t have any … We’re not worried about paying the bills. We’re not worried about what’s going on with the relationship. Now, lose awareness of eu-feeling, and now we have this emptiness. It says “something is wrong.” In fact, you probably, many people in their lives will say, “Is this all there is to life? There’s something missing.” Well, of course, that something missing is awareness of eu-feeling or this very fine state. When we lose that, now we have that emptiness. What do we do? We try to fill it with things. We put things in there like new cars and money and relationships and so on and so forth. There we are fear driven. Those are what Maslow calls the survival needs and the self-esteem needs, psychological needs and the physical needs. Those are all the fear driven ones. Then once an individual becomes aware of eu-feeling, now they settle into that wholeness. They now become what he calls a “transcender.” Now, when the people take my workshops, they have this experience and they will hold it. Oh, by the way, remind me to tell you about the research that we’re doing on this. They hold this for long periods of time while they’re moving around with their eyes open.

Rick: Do they make an effort to hold it?

Frank: No.

Rick: It spontaneously is held.

Frank: Spontaneously. It has to be effortless.

Rick: Yeah.

Frank: Now, given they’re in a group, right? It helps. When they leave, it’s a little harder. I wouldn’t say harder is that they get knocked around a little bit.

Rick: Right.

Frank: On the rocky shores of relativity. While they are there, they are experiencing this and the research is backing this up. We’ve just done several workshops of data we’ve collected. We’ll be explaining that later. We actually have an experience of enlightenment in the workshops. They can duplicate it at home if they choose to. It’s simply by not trying to do anything. As soon as you stop trying to do anything, you’re there. It’s all the trying and the effort. Oh, I’m going to become enlightenment. Now what do I do? There’s not a damn thing you can do to become enlightened. This simple technique takes care of all of it. It gets the mind out of the way. It gets the emotions out of the way. Remember devotion and intellect and physical? We just throw that all out and simply experience it and that’s it.

Rick: I hesitate to use the word enlightenment actually because it has this sort of superlative, static connotation. You finally reach the end of all possible evolutionary stages or something. And then when you say, “Okay, well you can just have experience enlightenment and then even in the first few days of something like this,” it kind of sounds like you’re defining it differently.

Frank: Yeah, yeah.

Rick: And people do define it differently, which is one of the reasons I hesitate to use it because it’s like Tower of Babel kind of thing where you’re actually referring to something very different using the same term and so communication isn’t taking place.

Frank: Well exactly why I use the term “eu-feeling” because nobody knows what that means so when they come to it they haven’t already got a preconceived idea of what this is. But some people might want to call it the soul, the spirit, you know, whatever, unbounded awareness, whatever.

Rick: But it has a feeling. Obviously the word feeling is in there so it has, you’re saying that there is a something that is felt. It’s not something abstract or metaphysical, it’s something you actually, there’s an innate intrinsic deep sense of well-being that we can tap into.

Frank: Yes, yes, but remember the “you” before it, which is true and true means unchanging. So ultimately the feeling is produced like the colors are produced from the white light. And so to the undisciplined mind they experience it right away as a “eu-feeling.” Remember pure “eu-feeling” has no feeling to it at all, just the experience of “I am aware of nothing.” When we experience pure awareness it’s like you don’t know it until you come out and then say, “Oh, there was a gap there.”

Rick: Can you experience an unchanging thing intermittently?

Frank: Well yes, of course, you’re from awareness. If you get in great pain, you become angry or something like that, you get shaken from that. And it’s always there, but that doesn’t mean that we’re always aware of it.

Rick: Yeah, I think that’s an important distinction because some people say, “Well, that which comes and goes is not the reality.” So anything you have experienced intermittently or temporarily wasn’t it.

Frank: Well, everything exists. There is nothing that comes and goes ultimately.

Rick: Right. But our experience of it.

Frank: Well now what you’re doing is you’re putting things into boxes and you’re saying, “Well, this thing is unbounded and if you experience that it’s real.” Well, who is experiencing the unbounded? You can’t have that, you see. It’s not logical. You can’t say, “Okay, you can experience something that’s unbounded, otherwise it’s not true.” There is no experiencer. So that logic falls apart very quickly. And we have to be very practical. I do working with the people that I work with because they don’t have this deep esoteric background for the most part. Now the ones that do, I’m really happy with. But we’re drawing more and more scientists now. In fact, I just met with Raymond Besson, who’s a French physicist. He’s got over 10 international awards and 15 or 16 international patents in his field. He thinks that this work is phenomenal. He likened it to that which Pauli was researching and not Eric Fromm.

Rick: Pauli was a physicist, right? Wolfgang Pauli.

Frank: Yes, yeah. I think he got the Academy Award. I mean, I can’t remember.

Rick: [Haha] He got the Oscar for best physicist. Nobel Prize?

Frank: 45 Nobel Prize. Yeah, and he was one of the original … I looked him up. I had read his stuff before. I thought he was German. He was actually Austrian. But he was one of the original founders of quantum mechanics. So this physicist who is seeing that there’s no dogma here. There’s no trappings. It’s just a common everyday experience. That as long as you have a system, you won’t have the experience. Or you’ll have it and you’ll say that the system did it for me. And then you’re relying on that system. And so what we’re saying here is this is a common natural state that not that you can have in the future, but you can have now. Well, okay. If you shift your awareness away from that, if it shifts away from that, it doesn’t mean that nothing is not there. It just means that your awareness is not with it. And now back to enlightenment, which I stay away from unless I get a chance to build it up and define exactly what enlightenment is. But I agree with you. It’s so misunderstood. And you ask 10 gurus what enlightenment is, you’ll get 10 different answers. For me, enlightenment is when you are no longer fear driven, when you are at peace, when you are free. It doesn’t mean that you will, this exalted state where it’s permanent, I don’t know of too many people who have really reached that state. It’s certainly in my experience, something that is so far out there that it creates so much frustration and so much effort to reach.

Rick: But in your own experience, I’m quite sure that there is something that is quite exalted and very permanent. It’s not like you kind of snap back to the 1968 Frank every now and then, or you know, stay there most of the time and then somehow catapult into some exalted sublime state. I mean, there must be a sort of a continuum or an undercurrent.

Frank: It’s always there. It’s always there. And this is what I’m talking about with the students. It’s always there. They just initially have to make an effort to find it, to become aware of it. They do that by not making an effort. They just have to say, “Okay, now I’m going to become aware.” And they are.

Rick: Yeah, movie screen is always there.

Frank: Right. So what we do then is they just become aware of it in different circumstances while they’re moving around. Now does that mean that they’re not enlightened? Well, some people would say, yeah, they’re enlightened. They just don’t know it. Well, as far as I’m concerned, you know, if they’re suffering, you may call that enlightenment, but it still doesn’t help the suffering.

Rick: Kind of cheapens the term.

Frank: It does. On the other hand, saying that you have this state all the time, it can be taken two ways. One, you’re always aware of it, so you become the slow-walking, slow-talking kind of individual, which rarely happens.

Rick: Well, now hang on. It’s unfair to sort of characterize it as the spiritual stereotype of slow-walking, slow-talking, om shanti, you know, kind of thing. I mean, there are people who are established in pure awareness very solidly 24/7 throughout even the deepest sleep who for all external appearances are normal folks doing normal things, having jobs.

Frank: Right.

Rick: You know, so, you know, we don’t want to paint a caricature of enlightenment.

Frank: No, no. That’s the point I’m making. It is the idea that when you become enlightened, you become slow-walking and talk.

Rick: Yeah, that’s nonsense. That’s just the stereotype.

Frank: Yeah, it is. So what happens is, with my definition of enlightenment here, is that we still have anger. We still have sadness. We still have all of these human emotions, but we have them on this beautiful bed of stillness that’s there.

Rick: That’s a good definition.

Frank: And so we become more human or to further the analogy, we begin playing our own music, you know. Now this is the way I feel about it. I think that each of us, when we play our own music, when we are not fear-driven and trying to do what’s right or trying to get something. When we’re content, let’s say, with where we are, we create a harmony that allows others to do the same thing. And this fullness of harmony between people is what needs to be built. And it only starts within, of course. This is not something, when you start playing your own music, you will be unique. So you can’t have a goal. I’m sorry, you can’t have someone that you look up to and emulate and try to become like them. Then you’ve sold yourself out. So my feeling is that when you experience eu-feeling, and then you watch, you just do your daily activity. And you’ll find that very quickly, things that you really thought were important to you will start to fade away. You won’t be doing, you’ll be more resistant to other people’s ideas that you know are not working for you and so on. So you play this inner music, this beautiful music that you are, and it starts to add to the harmony of the symphony rather than these off-key, “Oh, I’ve just got to get this. I’ve got to get this much money.” Now according to Maslow, and I agree, I think from my own experience of working with people who come to the workshops, about 98% of the population of the world is fear-driven. And that means that that influence of disharmony is very strong. Now how do you overcome that? Well of course, in the TM movement, we got together and did the siddhis and we did the crime study, you know, the crime studies and those sorts of things. We know that there’s power in unity. So…

Rick: Crime studies meaning it was seen that crime rates dropped when large groups practiced together.

Frank: Yeah. Yeah. So, but if we can’t do that on our own, you know, like you go, sorry my nose is just itching and I think I’m allergic to something in your home there.

Rick: Yeah, must be.

Frank: You got a dog.

Rick: We got two of them.

Frank: So anyhow…

Rick: Smell-o-vision.

Frank: Smell-o-vision, exactly. We have a need.

Rick: Gotta eu-feel your nose.

Frank: We have this need to be alone, to find ourselves, not lonely, but alone, to find ourselves and then get out there and start testing the music, playing it, allowing others to hear it. And that can only be done individually. And so, you know, when, and this is one of the reasons I don’t crack the whip with the people who do QE, once they leave the workshop, they’re pretty much on their own. You’ll get a bigger percentage than 98% of fallout. I mean, you’ll get a lesser percentage. So probably, I don’t know what the percentage would be, but they will not rely on me. They don’t need me anymore. They don’t need my books. They don’t need anything. They have already the ability to be with themselves and be content. Now what they need to do is just test it, just keep doing it in activity while they’re in their daily lives.

Rick: True, but I think there’s something to be said for strength in numbers and having kind of a peer, you know, hanging out with the right people, so to speak, you know, associating with people who are similarly motivated, and so that we can reinforce one another. Certainly all the traditional texts place great emphasis on this, you know, the benefits of the company of the enlightened and so on. You know, if you hang out in bars or with drug addicts or something all the time, unless you’re there to help them, chances are it’s not going to have the same influence as if you hang out with people whose motivation is spirituality, higher consciousness, enlightenment, that kind of thing.

Frank: No doubt about it, but you can’t hang out in that community. It’s pretty rare all the time. Fairfield would be excluded from that, but basically we are out there. If there’s 98% of the world that is disharmonious, then we’re basically hanging out there, and we need a technology that’s going to be easy and effortless and fun.

Rick: Yeah, you need a do-it-yourself thing.

Frank: I mean, you don’t want to be reliant on somebody else all the time for anything.

Rick: Yeah, and we do have … now, the also thing about doing QE is you can do it at a distance. You don’t have to be hands-on. So we have groups, people doing groups and certainly falling in line with what you just stated.

Rick: Yeah. Incidentally, those who are listening on the live stream, if any of this is unclear to anybody, furrowing your brow or scratching your head, just go to the upcoming interviews page and fill out that form at the bottom of the page on batcap.com and you can post a question. One thing I’m wondering about is some … you used the word “Quantum Entrainment” and as I understand it, you got quite interested in quantum physics and you see a correlation between quantum physics and the kind of thing you’re talking about. There are some physicists who are really bothered by that, you know, and they kind of take exception to people like John Hagelin and Menos Kafatos and others who are trying to say that there is some … that the unified field is consciousness, or that there is some connection between the deepest understandings of quantum physics and spirituality. So have you grappled with that objection at all?

Frank: Not to any great degree. As you know, mainstream science is pretty dogmatic, pretty narrow-minded, and so that doesn’t bother me. There are those incredible beings who are sort of on the cusp, you know, and still haven’t been thrown out. I was with a physicist just recently and we were talking and he said if my society, or if they … he was at a university, he’s teaching at a university, a professor … well, I won’t say where … he said if they knew what we were talking about, they’d throw me out, you know, and it’s just that. So I’m not too concerned about that. I just received a paper from … oh, God, I’ll think of his name in a moment … Penrose, the mathematician.

Rick: Roger Penrose.

Frank: Yeah, on consciousness. Now I went through it quickly to look at it and I can see it’s going to take me two or three months to digest it, but here is, you know, a world-renowned scientist, a mathematician, who is talking about science, or consciousness, as being a part of, a necessary part of …

Rick: Oh yeah, and a lot of scientists are doing that. I go to a conference every fall called the Science and Non-Duality Conference out in California, which assembles a whole lot of people from spiritual and scientific communities and they interface. But it’s definitely a small percentage of the general scientific community.

Frank: Yeah.

Rick: As some great scientist, I forget who, put it, you know, “Science progresses by a series of funerals.”

Frank: That’s the truth.

Rick: There’s a question that came in from Elizabeth in Boulder, Colorado. She said, she asks, “Aside from the different names you have coined, eu-feeling, etc., how is your system, how are your techniques, different from classical spiritual traditions? Or are you repurposing traditional techniques for a modern audience?”

Frank: Yeah, the latter. As I said before, I’ve removed all the dogma, I’ve removed as much as I can, all of the trappings, the things that you must do. I don’t teach it as a spiritual technique. That word is very rarely used in my workshops until we get into the higher workshop, but certainly not in the basic work. I’m introducing people to their “spiritual selves,” again, like enlightenment, a word that needs definition, but not calling it that. Because I can do that, I can do that because it is natural for every one of us to have that experience intimately and immediately. There’s no need to practice years or even hours. It can be had because it is a natural experience built into us. I don’t know, it could be 70,000 years ago when we had this flash of insight and became self-aware. It may have come with us at that point. But yeah, Elizabeth, this is simply a bare-bones spiritual technique, which has some advantages and immediate feedback. What I’ve done is a person who walks in, if they’re looking for spiritual growth, they have something that they can do, i.e., the healing work that actually enhances or greatly expands the spiritual, or let’s say, their awareness. Let’s talk in terms of awareness rather than spiritual. Whether they know it or not in the beginning, the simple awareness of eu-feeling is a form of enlightenment. As they do that, the things they report back to me will fit very neatly into the “seven levels of enlightenment” that SCI has laid out. Yeah, it’s not a rehashing. You’re not going to change anything. Awareness is awareness, but our access to it is made instantaneously. Once we set it up, it’s instantaneously, and then it sticks with you. I have to say, too, the “eu-stillness” word, which is the awareness of stillness or non-movement in all things all the time, that is the most effortless of all. Once they are taught that technique, it stays. They don’t even have to try to have that.

Rick: One of my operating principles in doing this show is just the underlying opinion or attitude or understanding that God is not a one-trick pony, and that there are almost as many paths to God as there are people. Each person has their own makeup, their own orientation, their own gifts. Like you said, five paths earlier. Some people are more intellectual, some are more devotional. Some might be good at yoga or whatever. My attitude is, whether you want to chant Hare Krishna or get deeply into Christianity or practice what you’re teaching or become a strict non-dualist or something, more power to you, give it a try. If it works for you, great. If it ceases to work, then move on to something else.

Frank: Here’s the beauty about what I’m talking about here. The QE is not an either/or. You can do QE.

Rick: It can be supplemental to other things. You do QE and basically QE, remember, is how to go from common consciousness, everyday fear-driven awareness, to inner peace. Or basically I say QE is how to go from common consciousness through pure awareness to eu- feeling. Now, once you’ve done that, anything else you do is going to be done more effectively. So my instruction is always do QE first and then go on.

Rick: Sounds familiar.

Frank: It does, it does.

Rick: In light of what I just said, it’s kind of funny in a way because a lot of people in the spiritual world don’t have that kind of attitude that I just expressed, and you’d be surprised how adamant people can get about their particular path or their particular flavor. You know, like, “Such and such a teacher has got the answers, everybody else is off the beam.”

Frank: Now let me give you a quote here. I love this one, and this one I know is accurate. Isha Upanishad, I might even get the verse, I think it’s 17 or 19. It says that those attached to the spiritual world are damned. Those that are attached to the material world are doubly damned, or words to that effect.

Rick: Well, another interpretation of that verse is, “Into blinding darkness go those who are attached to ignorance,” I think it is, isn’t it? “And into even greater darkness go those who are attached to knowledge,” some such thing I might be …

Frank: Yeah, yeah. Same words, depends on, I guess, the translation. But simply said, you won’t get more dogmatic, let’s say, ignorance, ignorant of fullness, people, than you will those attached to a spiritual path. Now that doesn’t mean that people who are practicing are ignorant or attached to it, but it means that those who are are harder to move than a guy who sits in front of the tube with a can of beer and some chips and watching the game. He is more likely to shake free of his ignorance than someone who thinks they’re on the right path, who thinks that no matter what happens, “Even my suffering is getting me closer!” So as the suffering increases, they feel, they encourage it, because they feel it is actually beneficial for some spiritual reason or other.

Rick: I think this pertains to what you were saying earlier about fear. I think that there’s an innate human need for a solid, stable foundation in life, and most people find themselves just adrift, without that foundation. And so they kind of latch onto something and attempt to make it absolute in order to fulfill that need for something stable and non-changing. And unfortunately they generally latch onto something relative and they try to make it absolute and therefore it clashes with every other relative thing from their perspective.

Frank: Well of course. Even the technique itself is attaching to the technique in an effort to eventually experience “enlightenment” or even a flash of it. That’s where we have an advantage here, is you experience it right away. So it breaks down all of those fears, all of those concerns about, “Can I actually do QE and still be a Christian or be a Buddhist or whatever?” I guess you could draw an analogy between that and exercising, for crying out loud. Can I still exercise and be a Buddhist or a Christian? It’s neither, it just doesn’t work. There’s no conflict.

Rick: Right, I agree. Because it’s non-doctrinal and non-denominational. It’s just an experience. Can I still breathe and be a Christian?

Frank: Yeah. That’s much more succinctly put. The thing is that we don’t have to sit down to do this. We can do it while we’re… You might think, “Well, okay, I’m a Buddhist. I’m going to do my eight Buddhist technique, and then I’ll do QE, and then I’ll do the Buddhist…” No. You can do QE while you’re… after your practice, while you’re making a souffle, or taking the dog for a walk. So we’re not limited to a meditation period. It’s just simply becoming aware of fullness throughout the day, wherever you are.

Rick: So, most of what you teach is available for free in your books and others, some things you can download on YouTube, I believe. So the things for which you do charge money, what do people get, what do people learn, and what do they pay for those things? And after that, another question has come in from London, which I’ll pose to you.

Frank: Okay. I have tried to make it, “it” meaning QE, available, and all of the techniques you can get from the book. So you’re going to have to pay for the book, or borrow it from somebody.

Rick: Well, I mean, but books are negligible in terms of cost. Like the weekend seminar that you give, how much do they cost?

Frank: That’s going to be, I don’t know, in Euros, what it would be in the States, it’s almost the same thing. That will vary with the country. They set the prices, but it wouldn’t be less than 300 Euros for the weekend. So say, I don’t know, what, three and a quarter, $350 for the weekend.

Rick: If 400 people show up, that’s going to be pretty good money.

Frank: Not bad. And I told you I was in deep debt when this thing happened. I was actually, after …

Rick: That’s 120,000 Euros.

Frank: Yeah, and that’s only one workshop. You get that, you know, I mean, it’s one, two days’ workshop. But you remember, I was huge, I had a huge debt when I discovered this process. And I didn’t worry about, I was worried about money. So how on earth could I, after all of my spiritual studies and practices and my experiences, how on earth could I be worried about money at 61 years of age? It doesn’t make sense. when I discovered the process, I got so totally involved in teaching it and spreading it that the finances took care of themselves. And that’s how it works.

Rick: Yeah. And one objection that people with a TM background might bring up, which is that they might feel that you’re kind of just converting TM slightly and cashing in on it in a way. But I mean, I could defend that myself, because you use similar analogies, pulling the arrow back on the bow and the ocean analogy, and some things you learn as a TM teacher. But I also feel like what you’re teaching is quite different in terms of its mechanics. And there are going to be some similarities between all spiritual teachings, because they’re all fathoming the same territory. But is there anything you’d like to say in defense or in response to that opposition if it does come up?

Frank: Well, I have to say that Maharishi was an incredible influence, probably the strongest influence in my life, for organizing it, allowing me to experience the harmony of life. I mean this mostly in terms of the science of creative intelligence. I draw heavily from those principles in my teaching. The more I delve into them, the more I find that they’re accurate, even with a totally new system.

Rick: Yeah. And he drew heavily, by the way, from older traditions.

Frank: Exactly. And we’re talking about pure awareness. I think it’s pure conscious. And I’ve even forgotten some of the terms that we use. That doesn’t belong to any particular way of looking at life. I’m not teaching mantra meditation. I mean, it’s a perception as opposed to, you know, if you simply look at something a certain way and you have an experience. So you’re right, the mechanics of what I’m teaching are different. But it will sound similar, because I am drawing heavily from what Maharishi taught in terms of SCI. I don’t think that’s patented or registered. You know, it’s in books. You can find it in anywhere. You read “I Am That” from Nisargadatta, and you’ve got the basics there. In fact, the basics for QE I found in there, the basic–

Rick: It’s in “I Am That”?

Frank: “In I Am That.” Yeah.

Rick: OK.

Frank: So you’re right. Every discipline has some piece of it. This– I feel quite content that I’m not– and I was very, very, very concerned about this in the beginning. I mean, being totally devoted. I taught almost 900 people, QE, I mean, TM, one at a time. We had a very active center. And my wife taught another probably 600 or so. So we were totally devoted to that system for as long as we were in it, and there was nothing I would want to do to diminish its importance or in any way adulterate that system. But QE is completely different. It’s a totally different system.

Rick: OK, good. Here’s a good question that came in, a real obvious one. Someone asked, this is Tara from London. She asked, “Is it possible to give a taste of how eu-feeling feels now during this interview? Can you walk us through some kind of exercise?”

Frank: Well, that might take a little dead air.

Rick: That’s all right if there’s some dead air. I mean, even if it’s two, three minutes of dead air here and there, I mean, people are watching this thing, you could guide them through it.

Frank: Well, what we could do is we could experience pure awareness pretty quickly, but that is not QE. We really first of all have to experience pure awareness, then we experience eu-feeling, and then we actually start doing, becoming aware of eu-feeling and activity. That takes a little bit more development.

Rick: OK, well maybe we can do the pure awareness thing, and then there are some things I think you can download off your YouTube channel where you could actually walk them through some of the other techniques.

Frank: Oh yeah. I might, Tara, I would suggest that you download the pure awareness technique. It’s free on the Kinslow System website. That will walk you through what you need to do to become aware of eu-feeling. But that will take approximately 20 minutes, which I’m sure we won’t have time to do here. Then once you have eu-feeling, you’ll be that much more at home with the technique of triangulation, which is the basic QE technique.

Rick: OK, so rather than try to do it right now, people can just go to KinslowSystem.com and download things and just be guided through them right there.

Frank: Yeah, yeah, and that would probably be the best thing. Although, if you want to experience pure awareness quickly, I mean really quickly, we could do this simple exercise.

Rick: All right, just for fun, let’s do that.

Frank: Yeah, all right. So what you want to do is you want to look down. I don’t know, whatever is down. If you’re sitting, it’s your lap. If you’re standing, it’s the floor or your feet. So you look down and pay attention to what you see there. Now look up at the ceiling. Now what was in your mind from the time you looked down to the time you looked up?

Rick: Well, I’m seeing my keyboard. I’m seeing knot holes in the ceiling.

Frank: So what was in mind between those two?

Rick: As I went up or during both of those two? I mean there’s desk, there’s camera, there’s Frank, there’s wall, there’s knot holes.

Frank: All right, look a little faster.

Rick: I’m a tough nut to crack.

Frank: Look down. Yeah, you’re beating this thing to death with your intellect. [laughter] Just look down and look up. Boom. What’s there?

Rick: Well, awareness both times.

Frank: Yeah, nothing is there, right? Pure awareness. You have awareness of something, then you look at something else is there. It’s everywhere all the time. We’re told that. But we think we have to go into some deep meditative state to experience it. Now, that was just a flash of it, but it has its value. And another exercise that you could do, which I can’t remember where this was, I think Shiva Sutras or something like that. When you start to do something like reach for something on your desk, and then stop and pay attention to what you feel or what happens. And in that moment that you stop, there’s pure awareness. Getting up from your chair, you start to get up and stop. So what was there 112 ways to practice? Do you know where that’s from?

Rick: That could be Shiva Sutras. I believe it is Shiva Sutras.

Frank: Yeah, I think so. And somebody challenged me on that, but I couldn’t prove it.

Rick: I actually have it someplace, I think.

Frank: Yeah, I think if Paul Reps’ “Zen Flesh, Zen Bones,” he’s got a copy of it in the back. But anyhow, this is not something you have to study or you have to twist into some weird posture. Those are all … it’s just there. This perception is available all the time, 24 hours a day. Well, except for when you’re sleeping and dreaming. It’s also … but we start where we are with our awareness.

Rick: I think the objection some people might have is, “Yeah, fine, I’m always aware. I acknowledge that. I’m aware of my desk, I’m aware of my kids, I’m aware of my job, whatever I’m driving, I’m aware of the road. So I can acknowledge that awareness is always there.” But I don’t … it’s not isolated and pure in and of itself. In other words, I must be aware because I’m seeing all this stuff, but I’m not aware of awareness itself. And all this stuff is impinging on me so much that I always feel overwhelmed or overshadowed to some extent.

Frank: Well, that’s where QE comes in. Before we do, we have a simple exercise we can do with this awareness thing. But let me just make this point. That’s where QE comes in. It’s how to slip out of this and experience this very quiet state, not only during the day. And it may come for two, three seconds, may come for two, three minutes, doesn’t matter. It has a very, very powerful stabilizing effect when you’re doing it in activity. When you do it with eyes closed, sitting down, it’s even more powerful. But in either case, you start to realize that you’re never away from it. Let’s try this exercise. Become aware of the fact that whatever you’re doing, become aware that you’re watching yourself doing. Now become aware of the watcher. That creates, we always say, yeah, I’m aware. I’m aware of what I’m doing. But when you become aware of that which is aware, it creates that stillness. It creates that openness. It creates a stop, if you will, while the activity goes on. So if you were to do that, and then every time you found yourself being pulled back into the, “Oh, I’m aware of activity,” then watch the watcher. Keep doing that alone. In just a few minutes, you’ll find a very deep sense of peace and contentment coming on.

Rick: Yeah, although that could get into the old Gurdjieff-Ospensky thing where people are trying to remember the self and they don’t speak fluently because, “Oh, I’ve got to remember the self and now I can say a word and now I can remember the self.” It really has to get more stable and integrated so that you don’t have to give it a second thought but it’s very much predominant.

Frank: You see, that requires doing. Here would be my instruction. If you were just to do this exercise, watching the watcher, if you were just to do that, just do it when you become aware that you’re not doing it, not trying to hold onto it, not trying to do anything else. But let’s just do it quickly again. You’re aware of what you’re listening to me or watching me. Now you’re aware of that, now become aware of that which is aware. Now you don’t have to hold onto it. That’s not the instruction. Just become aware of it. You can do it this way. Become aware of it for two, three seconds, then let it go and watch to see what happens. You see, now what will happen is eventually you’ll go back to activity. Nothing wrong with that but just that stepping out of it like that and without effort, without trying. So we’re not going to get into anything else except this effortless of becoming aware whenever you realize that you’re not aware.

Rick: Yeah, as long as it doesn’t spoil the spontaneity of your behavior.

Frank: Well, it’s a technique that you’ll be doing so it’s going to stop you for a moment but in time that won’t happen. So initially that will interact with spontaneity but it’s only for a second or two or three and usually when you become aware of it, it’s at a quiet time. You might be driving your car, you might be looking at nature or something like that. So it wouldn’t be at a more active time. The more active time would come later but that would be spontaneous.

Rick: Yeah, and this could very well actually be what Ramana Maharshi was referring to as self-inquiry.

Frank: I don’t know. I couldn’t say for sure. Rick; Yeah, but just not so much an intellectual “who am I” kind of process but more like just a gentle introspection of noticing, you know, the watcher.

Frank: Yeah, yeah. I think by itself there’s not enough feedback, positive feedback. It’s more of an intellectual thing, “Oh, I did it.” You will tend to start to feel quieter but I don’t think enough, quickly enough for most people to continue that process. When we do QE, when we become aware of eu-feeling, that has a stronger, it has an emotional hook, not an emotional but a feeling attached to it that’s very nice. And so even psychologically you want to revisit it more often. It’s built into it.

Rick: Okay. So what haven’t we covered that you want to make sure to say before we conclude?

Frank: Well, for those of your listeners or viewers, if you’re interested in the basic technique I’d start with a book called “The Secret of Instant Healing.” It’s very simple. It introduces the three-step triangulation process. But if you really want to get to the nitty-gritty, then pick up a copy of “When Nothing Works, Try Doing Nothing.” That there deals with becoming aware of stillness in activity. It’s a very freeing, very beautiful, not beautiful, it’s just jarring, so jarring in the sense that it’s so strong in its completeness or fullness that it tends to be jarring in the beginning. “Oh my gosh, there’s nothing!” That’s for the more hardcore spiritual-oriented people. Have them give that one a spin.

Rick: Okay, great. Then there’s the kinslowsystem.com and all sorts of resources you can find on there. You mentioned a blog where people are chatting about this stuff.

Frank: A forum. I have a blog and a forum. The forum would be the chat part.

Rick: Right. Good. So, I’ll have a page for you as usual on batgap.com with links to whatever is significant, like your website and to your books. If people feel so inclined, they can explore it.

Frank: Well, Rick, this has been a lot of fun and actually kind of a trip down memory lane. I haven’t hobnobbed with someone who’s been in the movement and been established in the movement for quite some time.

Rick: Yeah, and I’m not either anymore, but I was for 25 years.

Frank: Yeah, yeah. So, I mean, obviously it has its impact. It makes its impression. And I’ve gotten a chance to think about how deeply Maharishi has penetrated into my thinking. It also gave me a chance to compare and contrast, which I haven’t done since the very beginning of this process. So, yeah. And your questions, I have to say, were very, extremely penetrating and gave me a chance to bring out a good part of the teaching. Rick; Great. And I would say, you know, that old saying, “The proof of the pudding is in the eating.” It seems to me that the popularity of what you’ve been doing must speak for its efficacy. You know, you wouldn’t be getting all these hundreds of people to show up for things if they weren’t getting some benefit, or maybe they’d show up the first time and nobody would be at the other ones. So, the fact that it remains popular says something.

Frank: I do want to say this, and I’m sorry. This is in Europe and Asia. In the United States, we don’t even have workshops. We, you know, for some reason, there’s just not much interest. So, unfortunately, and we do have webinars. So, one can take the basic stuff. But in the United States, you know, it just hasn’t taken … it’s very strange, but there you have it.

Rick: A prophet is not without honor except in his own home.

Frank: Well, I’d like to think my home was like here in Florida, like in Sarasota, rather than all the U.S.

Rick: Okay, great, so let me make a few concluding remarks. I’ve been speaking with Frank Kinslow, discoverer of the Quantum Entrainment and founder of the Kinslow System, as you’ve learned from this discussion. This is part of an ongoing series, this interview show. If you’d like to be notified each time a new interview is posted, go to www.backgap.com and sign up for the email notification. You’ll get one about once a week. There’s also an audio podcast, and we’re still having problems with that. A lot of people are getting it okay, but a lot of people, they go on iTunes and try to sign up for it, and they’re told it doesn’t exist anymore. So, I don’t know what’s going on with it. Apple is very slow to respond, but we’re trying to work it out. We’ll get it fixed. There is a past interviews menu on www.backgap.com, where all the interviews are categorized in four or five different ways. Check that out. There’s an upcoming interviews page, which you probably know about if you’re watching the live streaming, but it shows you what we’ve got scheduled. There’s also a suggested guest page, but we haven’t been taking new suggestions for quite a while now, and we’ll eventually start taking them probably later this year, just because there’s such a backlog already to work through. There’s the donate button, so if you feel like helping support this, please donate in whatever amount is comfortable to you. So thanks for listening or watching, and we’ll see you next week. Thanks, Frank. Good talking to you.

Frank: All right, Rick, yeah. Well done. Thanks so much.

Rick: Thank you.