David Doyle Transcript

David Doyle Interview

Summary:

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of conversations with spiritually awakening people. We’ve done nearly 700 of them that right now. In a couple of weeks, I’ll probably be saying 700. And if this is new to you and you’d like to check out the previous ones, go to batgap.com, B-A-T-G-A-P, and look under the past interviews menu where you’ll find all the previous ones organized in a number of different ways. There’s something new there, relatively new, which is the BatGap chat bot, which I just sent an email newsletter out to anyone who has subscribed. I won’t explain it in great detail right now. But check it out, you might find it interesting. This program is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners and viewers, so if you appreciate it and would like to help support it, there are PayPal buttons on every page of the website and there’s a page explaining alternatives to PayPal. We’re always in need of volunteers to proofread transcripts and occasionally some other things, so if that interests you, get in touch and we’ll get you going on that. My guest today is David Doyle. Speaking of proofreading transcripts, David volunteered to proofread some transcripts. I think that’s how I originally got to know him. And then also he joined the Association for Spiritual Integrity, which I helped to found. And at one point, I don’t know, a couple months ago, he sent me an email with a graphic in it that explained his experience. And I won’t try to describe it right now, but it looked pretty profound, and I thought, “Whoa, this guy has a lot going on. Who would have thunk?” A lot more than I have going on. So, I thought he’d probably make a really interesting BatGap interviewee. And so, we talked about that and that’s what we’re gonna do. David lives on the water in the island city of Alameda in the San Francisco Bay Area with his wife, their teenage son, and Merlin, a rambunctious rat terrier. He was just telling me about the boat he lives on, you can see it in this video here. There it is. He’s in it and there’s other boats in the background for those of you who are just on the audio. At an early age, he set upon a spiritual path and soon put down the books and turned inward. David’s path has been, by most standards, a very traditional inner practice, starting with Hatha Yoga and quickly moving to Raja Yoga. Meditation was his main practice, with asanas as an adjunct to meditation. Early on in his spiritual practice, a teacher said that “If you master the basics of yoga, and if you practice in earnest, all will unfold. Everything you need will come to you.” David took this to heart, beginning a lifelong practice that for the most part was a solitary journey. At 20 years old, his third eye opened in a dramatic unfolding, and from there came the never-ending gift of insight and abilities, including clairvoyance, clairsentience, clairaudience, precognition, telepathy, and more. We’re going to talk about a bunch of these experiences during the interview. Some years later, David joined the Berkeley Psychic Institute during its heyday and befriended the founder, Dr. Louis S. Bostwick, whom he considers to be his first great spiritual teacher and friend. He spent over a decade with this group and at its many institutes and thousands of students and teachers. In 2012, David came to an abiding awakening. And since that time, many changes have taken place in an ongoing process of daily and weekly energetic and auspicious unfoldings, many of which have left him nearly incapacitated. Which probably doesn’t sound very auspicious, but we’ll talk about that. Since awakening, David has also become an adept at Qigong. He’s an adept Qigong master under the guidance of Grandmaster Shi Yong Yao, formerly an elite teacher monk at the Northern Shaolin Temple in China. Additionally, many siddhis have developed as byproducts along the way, as well as the massive Kundalini awakening and other extraordinary happenings. Now, with 10 years having passed since this awakening, David is ready to share experiences from his 50+ year journey with a wider audience. He created Monk with Family, a 501c3 nonprofit dedicated to the householder, but inclusive of anyone for whom the way is their life’s focus. David leads a weekly satsang open to all those interested and is available for speaking engagements and other spiritual events. He’s also a founding member of the Sherwin Master Chi Gong, a 501c3 nonprofit dedicated to sharing the teachings of Master Yao, whom I mentioned earlier. And of course, all of this will be posted on his page on the BatGap website. David is also registered in China as the Deputy Director of the U.S. Regional Department of Shaolin Fu Hanmen, so I probably mispronounced some of those. But anyway, alright, well, welcome David.

David: Hi everyone, hello Rick. It’s an honor to be here, and it’s fun to be here.

Rick: Yeah, for me too. So, you sent me a whole list of various experiences that you had had over the years, pretty much organized in chronological order, and in about 14-point type. It came out to 37 pages, and I read the whole thing yesterday and last night. And I really enjoyed it. I think it would be cool to talk about all these things that happened to you, and also to not just sort of report them, but you and I can ponder their significance or lack thereof. You know, if you feel like it wasn’t that significant but was interesting. And I think there are a lot of, as I was reading it, and you mentioned different things, I thought, “Ooh, that would be kind of interesting to get into because there’s some teachings in there.” It’s not just David’s experience, there’s a teaching in there that would be available even for people who aren’t inclined or wired to have such experiences. And you and I were talking earlier today about some other things that you’d like to discuss. So let’s get right into it. We have a couple of hours and we’re going to cover a lot of material. I think this will be an interesting conversation. And again, those who are listening, if you have a question during it at any time, just send it in through that form that I mentioned, which is linked to at the bottom of this, a bottom of the video in the description area. So, you had your first Kundalini awakening or opening at the age of 14, 1969, which would make you about five years younger than me. What was it? What happened?

David: Well, it was very unexpected and different, I think, than most stories we’ve heard. I I was about 14 years old and I was getting high on grass for my first time. I was trying to get high. I was not able to get high. I kept smoking and smoking and smoking and was not getting high. And luckily, probably back then, the grass was a heck of a lot less potent than it is today. This was back in the probably late-60s. But anyway, so then I walked home and everything was fine. And then I, not much longer after I got home, had this huge ball of light shoot up my spine and out my eyes and completely white it out. It scared me mainly. What scared me because it was more powerful than, like when I was younger as a kid, I got zapped by a 110 outlet. It was way stronger than a 110 outlet and it came out my eyes and this was back at a time when Reefer Madness was a, you know, a movie that showed the effects the horrible effects of marijuana and they had all kinds of scary things that our parents told us at the time so it was mainly scary from that standpoint. It was scary when it actually happened but my eyesight came back really quickly and all that. But anyway, so that was my first experience with a recognition of an enormous level of energy within our bodies that doesn’t compute, doesn’t seem like it’s possible.

Rick: Yeah, yeah, right. I mean, I’ve met some people who are purportedly enlightened, and well, I’ve talked to a gazillion people. But some people who are a bit off the charts, and the amount of energy they seem to have, the things they can do for hours and hours and hours on end without sleep or rest or going to the bathroom or anything else is pretty astounding sometimes. So I feel like we all have that potential, just tremendous energy which would probably fire circuits if it were released suddenly in the average person, but which with the proper culturing and development could enable one to have a very dynamic life. Very…

Rick: I think Ram Dass mentioned that he pushed to get his Kundalini to open and it did. He forced it open and it wiped him out. He said it took something, it was either six or nine months to recover. My guesstimate would be that it would be considerably longer than that actually. But I also remember having a conversation one time on a blog with a couple of people about some of the serious effects of Kundalini and completely unbeknownst to me, two of the people on the blog were in institutions presently recovering from exactly what we were talking about.

David: Yeah, I get contacted by people often who have gotten into trouble in that way. I was with a spiritual teacher once and someone said, “Couldn’t you just enlighten us today? Why does this have to take so long?” And he said, “If I could, it would take ten strong men to hold you down.”

David: Yeah, well, and there’s a lot of different levels.

Rick: So, perhaps a good slogan here, and then we can move on, is “Safety First.”

David: That’s very important. You know, it’s not just safety first. I guess it would be a good time to talk about this. There’s a lot of initial practices that are kind of lost. A lot of people don’t quite understand, “Well, why would I want to, you know, what’s the purpose of meditating 10-20 hours? And you know, is it necessary at all?” And so, there’s quite a few reasons for long-form meditation. One is that you become acclimated to being with yourself quietly. And that acclimation may seem like not a big deal, but if you’ve tried it, you know, we all know that if we’ve tried it, just stopping our thoughts, which you would think would be pretty simple, you know, just stop because we assume we have control of that. And then we immediately realize that’s not happening. And we try for maybe 20, 30 years and that still doesn’t happen. But as you practice regularly fairly long, you know, an hour, two, three hours, your body learns to drop the inertias that you have and drop the safeguards that it has from kind of being punished by you for not being constantly alert to things and not plotting and everything. So the body really starts to fall away and then you start to become acclimated to being in silence at least somewhat, however ineffective it is. You’re consciously doing this. Well, what effect is it? Let’s say you do wake up one day. I’ve seen several people who have awoken and they speak about their awakening but the awakening fades. And I’ve dealt with two people in particular who were awake, fully awake. were abiding in their awakening, but as time went on, they were having problems with being awake. And the problem was that when it initially happens, if it’s a big awakening, you feel like you’re floating in a sense. And there’s no hand grabs. Your opinions and positions and all that have fallen away, and it’s a big relief for a while. But then what happens is the world is out there. You know, you may have a job, you may have quite a number of things. And you may have friends that really enjoy the previous personality that was you. And they want that personality back, and you’re really not practiced in non-personality. You’re not really practiced in stillness. And stillness is another thing that, actually, let’s get into that right now. Stillness…

Rick: I’ll make a few comments before you go on if I may.

David: Yeah, sure.

Rick: So, I learned to meditate in 1968 and I started with half an hour twice a day and I’ve never skipped one since, but after a couple years I went up to an hour twice a day and I’ve never done less than that. And then there were weekend courses and six-week courses and six-month courses where you do a whole lot of meditation. It usually wasn’t hours on end like you’ve described. It was more like do an hour, then do some asanas, then do another hour, then do another asanas in pranayama, you know, break it up a little bit. But you alluded to this, to long meditations as an initial practice, and I would suggest that…

David: I actually, I didn’t mean it to come off that way.

Rick: Oh, okay. Because if a newbie starts out with 20 hours of meditation and then has to go to work on Monday, you know, they’re going to have a problem.

David: You brought up a whole slew of just awesome stuff that needs to be talked about.

Rick: Okay, go for it.

David: So, well, I used to sit with quite a few people meditating, and I could see their auras, I could see spirit, I could see all kinds of things. And so I would sit, and I was meditating, but at the same time I couldn’t help but notice that, because I’d already been meditating for quite a while. I noticed in myself that somewhere around 35 to 40 minutes, 45 minutes in there, that I often hit kind of a wall, which the voices in my head said, “Well, this is good. You’ve done 40 minutes. You should get up now. It’s time to stop,” and blah, blah, blah. And I realized if I went through that wall, it lasted about two minutes, and then poof, once I got past that wall, I often noticed that all the fidgeting in my body stopped. Repositioning my legs or whatever, it all stopped. You know, changing my back position, it just, that all kind of stopped. And my meditation level really was entirely different from that point on. So I started watching this in a group of 60- hitting their, they were hitting this wall at about 15 to 25 minutes, somewhere in that range, which is actually an advantage if you think about it. We’ll get to that. But the point is that what’s happening is that for quite a while, this isn’t with everybody, and it definitely happens then far less once you’re very, very experienced. But for most people what’s happening is the body and all the inertia’s going on within the bodies, gross physical, gross subtle, and subtle bodies. These have inertia. The body is used to these inertias. “I’ve got to go, got to do this, got to do that, don’t do this, and better have some coffee,” and all this kind of stuff. Because it’s used to the agenda you have. And when you’re sitting there and telling it you want to meditate, your body is very resistant to wanting to really truly meditate. It kind of puts up with you. It says, “Oh, okay, we’re, we’re gonna sit down for a while here, okay. And okay, so what do we do here? You know, we’re gonna sit here. But it, at a certain point in time, those two time periods that I mentioned, the body starts getting to the point where it wants to stop. Because if it goes just a little bit further, it’s gonna relinquish the inertias that it’s used to, that it knows you typically want. But it’s getting these signals that you’re actually saying to relax, and it doesn’t quite trust that. But when it finally drops it, that’s that two-minute period when it finally just kind of drops it, and then “poof,” the body’s gone into kind of neutral, and you’re now in your space. And then, so that, any questions on that?

Rick: Yeah, a couple questions there. So let me string about three of them out, and then you can answer them all. So firstly, what kind of meditation are you talking about? Because there’s a lot of, there’s many types of meditation as there are types of liquid, you know. And different liquids have different effects as do different kinds of meditation. And then secondly, these inertias, I somehow interpret that to mean like conditionings or kind of habitual grooves of behavior. And then the third thing that comes to mind is that, you know, after a while, maybe there’s, at least for me, maybe there’s some initial resistance to sit and meditate or just continue to meditate or something, but eventually it becomes just as routine as eating and sleeping and everything else you do. And, you know, natural and you just look forward to it, like you would look forward to a good night’s sleep or a good meal or anything else. There’s no discipline involved in having to sit down and do it. In fact, you look forward to it because it’s enjoyable. Alright, those are my points.

David: Yeah. So, well, imagine you have a horse and you’re the rider, and for a long time you’ve just gotten on the horse, strapped it, and kicked it, and told it where to go. And now imagine that same horse, you’re getting on it, or you’re maybe walking with it and talking with it and telling you, “Let’s just sit down and enjoy the view.” It’s just never had that happen before. And so, it’s a wonderful transition as you really meditate. Your body really learns that you’re actually going to just be with it. And also, you’re not going to run a bunch of nervousness through it. So that’s another thing. You’re actually going to sit there and not worry about futures and creating all this crazy stuff. You’re not going to have all this rigidified energy of fears and everything else. You’re actually not participating in that.

Rick: Yeah. And I would say that if that kind of stuff runs through your head, don’t beat yourself up over it. You know, just take it easy, take it as it comes. It’ll come, it’ll go.

David: Yeah, absolutely. Absolutely. Now, when it comes to the type of meditation, this is a really interesting thing right off the bat is a lot of stuff that is referred to as meditation is a sitting practice. And I don’t have a problem with calling a doing meditation. But it’s an important thing to recognize. Let’s say you’re doing a “chakra meditation,” a “color meditation.” There’s just so many types of sitting practices that you can do. But there is a difference between a sitting practice and a sitting and meditating, and no doing is going on. And I’m not at all, you know, saying that the others are not meditation. I just, I hope the audience gets what I’m saying.

Rick: What has your primary practice been?

David: Well, when I’m referring to meditation, I’m referring to being in the center of my head. And this is another important thing. The seat of the presence should basically be in the center of the head or anywhere in the central axis. Now, the central axis isn’t talked about much. But from the perineum to the top of the head and just slightly back is what’s also referred to as a Taiji pole. And it’s the central axis. It’s not the central back channel. It’s not the front channels. It’s in between. And anywhere along there from the top to way up above the head, all the way down below, or anywhere in there, in that central core is kind of like being in the center of a tree where you’re not identified with what’s going on with the leaves. Not identified with how hot the sun is or how dry the soil is in your central core.

Rick: So, if you were to sit and meditate for an hour or two, you would be sitting and putting your attention in the center of your head? And the second part of that question is, how do you juxtapose or reconcile that with Ramana’s instruction about meditating in the heart? I don’t know if you’re aware of that, or Ramana Maharshi used to say, you know… Ramana, well, okay, so let’s go to the first one.

David: Okay. Here’s what most meditators, when they first start out, seem to have two complaints. One is it’s boring, and two, they feel a lot of pressure. And the reason for that is that they’re meditating from the forward part of their head. There’s a huge tendency among people that are beginning to get into this stuff. Opening the third eye is the biggest thing, even though theoretically it’s not, but they’re still wanting to kind of be there. And then the other thing is that’s where we’re habituated all the time. So, the reason for the pressure is that this is where we have all these conversations, analytical stuff, thinking about futures, worries, and things like that. And so, going there when when you’re meditating is a bit like an alcoholic going to a bar and telling everybody I’m not drinking today. It’s just not, it’s your place where you do all that noise. And then the other reason it’s boring is because that’s also where most people sit down and work from. So that’s their workspace. So imagine going to your workspace and then just sitting there and doing nothing in an area that you’re very accustomed to doing. The center of the head, which would be basically where your earlobe comes up and attaches to your side of your head, if you draw a line between that and then from the center of your head to the little knob in the back, that’s the center of the head. And that’s really the seat of presence or anywhere on that pole, as I mentioned, you’ll be quite neutral. And also what a lot of people don’t quite get is that the third eye, and you have one Ajna here, you have another whole complex thing here. That all goes to the center of the head. That awareness is really centered in the center of the head.

Rick: Now Ramana, I’m not that familiar with that other than to say that there’s a lot of confusion about left, right, you know, it’s slightly over here and it’s not the actual physical heart. And then you have the, you know, main center here. I recently heard one person say, you know, that was a one-off, that what he teaches and what you find in virtually all the traditions around him, they don’t teach that. And I…

Rick: Yeah, I don’t know.

David: I’ve been doing this long enough to say that it’s amazing how much stuff will work that you wouldn’t think would work, and it’s also amazing how many variations there are to just about everything.

Rick: Yeah, in my case, I’ve always used a mantra, and I’ve always found it effortless and blissful, and inevitably I settled down to a deeper state. But it’s not to say that, you know, I mean, I certainly wouldn’t insist that that’s the best way or the only way of meditating and trying to understand it. So, like, if you were to give instructions right now, could you give instructions right now on how to meditate in the way that you do or would, that you would advocate?

David: Well, I started out, you know, I say that I started out traditionally. I didn’t have a teacher in most cases. I had teachers on very cursory levels. Even when I mentioned Louis Bostwick or Master Yao, my main relationship with them was they saw me. I’m reminded of, what’s the movie where they talk, where they say, “I see you.”

Rick: Oh, Avatar.

David: Yeah, Avatar. Lewis saw me and when we would get together sometimes at his ranch, he got rid of everybody at the ranch and we would just sit. And like this little stone here is something, you know, it’s something we cut together at the ranch one day. And most of the time we didn’t talk really. We didn’t talk much. Occasionally we’d close our eyes and go off together, but just being with him was a big thing for me. It’s true also for Master Yao. But anyway, to get back to your question, I learned the typical things, you know, you have your chin slightly tucked, and that’s because the point on top of your head is about a half inch back from the top, and so you align that, and that’s actually that point that I was talking about, to align with with your perineum, which is between your sex organs and your anus. I was taught that you put your tongue forward to the top of the palate as if you were to, say, bite and that stays there, got that down. Have your jaw, teeth are not really falling off or falling apart or way apart, but just slightly loose, not tense. I learned alternate nostril breathing and Om is always with me. And Om was very helpful, mantras are very helpful for stopping chatter. There’s other things that you can do and there’s different types of, you know, Om is a very strong vibration and that’s attuning you to a vibration. The idea of sitting up straight was a big deal. I found, I started out naturally being able to, I shouldn’t say naturally. I used to be a ski racer and I was very, very limber. When I got into this, I could do Full Lotus. That’s how I started meditating was Full Lotus. Then I would do sometimes Half Lotus and then sitting and standing. I haven’t done a lot standing, but, um, I, I don’t find, uh, Full Lotus a big deal. I personally, some people really pushed that. Um, I think that the most important thing is that your legs are not going purple on you and that you’re not constantly, you know, you don’t have legs go completely to sleep. We have too many people getting strokes because of this. They try and do a meditation where their leg’s gone blue. You know, it’s…

Rick: And then you get blood clots or something.

David: Yeah.

Rick: Oh, you shouldn’t be in pain, I don’t think, when you’re… I mean, it should be comfortable, shouldn’t it? Otherwise, the pain is going to just distract you.

David: Exactly. The other thing though is that sitting meditation in a chair actually can easily be argued to be the best on some levels.

Rick: Yeah. It’s a very comfortable… Depending on what’s comfortable for you.

David: Yeah. Well, it’s not just comfort. It allows your energy to move through you. That’s also why standing meditation is also… You can argue all these things, and I’m not interested in the arguments. What I am interested in is if I was teaching meditation, however you’re sitting or standing, the posture basically from the base of the spine up is the most important thing. And then over decades, that’s just proven to be more and more a big deal. And then also at a certain point in time when certain energies get, and certain channels really develop, they’ll straighten you up.

Rick: Yeah, they will.

David: I mean, they’ll just straighten you up. I know, you can be slouching and all of a sudden, “boom!” Yeah, but I mean also, yeah, exactly. It’ll straighten you up. And then the other thing is, you know, I’ve been meditating 16, 18 hours on a chair and at the end of it, I’m at the end of the chair, I’m bolt upright and the energy is flying through my space. And I’m not even, I don’t end the meditation because I’m tired. I end the meditation, I feel, I feel absolutely wonderful, but the, but the energy is just flying through your space. And, and then there’s also something that is, most people wouldn’t notice. But when you are sitting with your legs crossed, and particularly if you have your legs crossed and your arms and your hands touching each other, your aura starts spinning slightly. And that’s nice on some levels because it insulates you in a certain sense from the atmosphere of the outside, even the atmosphere of the outside right next to you. But at the same time, if you have your hands in an upright position, palms up on your knees, and you’re sitting in a chair, your aura doesn’t spin and it’s a much more open space. It’s just something interesting to look at, something interesting that I’ve noticed. Well, I don’t know, do you have any questions?

Rick: No, that’s good. We don’t want to spend too much time on this. I imagine you do consultations with people and all if they want some meditation instruction that you could talk to them privately or in groups or some such thing. Also, you made a a comment about “Om.” In some traditions, it’s thought that “Om” by itself, if you just kept chanting “Om, Om, Om,” it will have a tendency to make you more reclusive and less successful in the world. So, sometimes when, in some Indian traditions, they say this. The Shankaracharya of Jyotirmathu is a renowned sage, emphasized it and others. But in some other traditions, “Om” is part of a longer mantra, like “Om Namah Shivaya” or something like that, with possibly a “Bija” mantra thrown in the middle of it. And it’s said that in conjunction with other syllables like that, it doesn’t have that reclusive effect.

David: [Laughter] Yeah. So, I didn’t hear that until you said it a few years back. And so, that’s one of the advantages of being in an actual tradition. I might have heard that, because I never heard that, and so it is interesting. I’ve been…

Rick: Well, you live on a nice boat. It doesn’t seem to have had that effect on you.

David: Well, you know, there’s different levels of reclusiveness. You can be a recluse within yourself, and a lot of people would just not know what’s going on in there. And then also, I know I’ve had quite a few businesses that failed almost miraculously.

Rick: [Laughter] Yeah.

David: And to the point where I finally was like, huh, so this is not meant to be.

Rick: Well, the mechanics of why it’s said to have that effect is that Om is an eternal vibration, but you can’t chant it eternally, you can only chant it intermittently, and somehow that breaks it up in a way that can cause a reclusive effect to happen in your life, including losses of businesses and relationships and things like that.

David: Yeah, like I said, I wish I had heard that maybe 30-40 years ago. [Laughter] Might have been helpful.

David: Yeah. But I always was doing that. You know, I got a TM thing once, mantra once, and And, but by that time I was so used to “Om” that I used “Om.” And I think the big thing though to be said here to the audience is that mantras are, well, that there’s more to mantras than meets the eye. One thing is they’re extraordinarily helpful for calming the chatter.

Rick: They are. Okay, so anything more you want to say on what we’ve been talking about or should we move on to some other points. Well, we can keep on moving on. Okay, so I just I want to be sure to cover some of the interesting experiences you’ve had in addition to this more abstract stuff we’re talking about. So, for instance, you were 17 years old, you’re out skiing, you had what you called your first Tummo awakening. Tummo, yeah. Tummo, and talk about, explain that experience, what happened.

David: Yeah, this was, this was before I knew what the word Tummo even meant. I’d never heard of this. So anyway, I’m skiing local ski area. I skied there seven days a week when I was a kid until about I think it closed at nine, you know, as a little teeny, teeny area. I mean, like the mountain was three or 400 feet tall. But so, it was kind of spring. It was basically spring and it was in Minnesota and it would get during the day was like 25 degrees, which by then, by spring, 25 degrees was like you could go skiing in your shorts. So I was not wearing much. I had like a windbreaker on and a turtleneck. I don’t, I had very thin racing gloves on, which are like, you know, practically nothing to them. And, um, I think I had ski pants on, but I didn’t, the ski pants on, by the way that I had were like, uh, thin nylon racing type there. I’m not talking about like these big puffy things with down. So, and I may have been wearing long johns, probably the long johns were thicker than the pants. So I’m, and I was quite a ways from the lodge and the sun went down and that’s no big deal. But, but, you know, in the winter time, you don’t have an atmosphere much. And so the heat goes, it can go from 25 to like zero fast. And that’s what it did. It went from 25 degrees roughly and sunny, you know, in the sun when it’s hitting you and you’ve got dark clothes on that also helps to warm you up. So, it went from all at once. So, I didn’t think I was really in trouble. I didn’t have any idea that I was in trouble. I’m skiing along. So at a certain point in time I started getting quite cold and I realized “Okay, I gotta get back to the lodge.” And you know, because I’d had frostbite on my earlobes before. My toes were starting to get cold which I was very surprised by that. And I didn’t, I don’t think I had a hat on because most of the time I didn’t like to wear a hat unless I had to wear a hat. And at 25 degrees, I’m pretty sure I didn’t have a hat on. So I started getting cold pretty bad and the the lifts were rope toes. So you have to grab onto these ropes and you go up. And it was maybe, and also it was at that time of the day where not a lot of people were out and I think it was a weekday. I started getting really cold and I’m like two lifts away from the lodge. I have to go up and down, up and down. Which means the wind chill factor is gonna be nailing me as well. And I’m really starting to get concerned. I’m a ski racer, ski patrol. I know what’s going on. and I’ve had problems with my ear lobes freezing before. So, and this was bad. And, but then just out of nowhere, this golf ball sized thing below my navel, inside maybe, you know, inch and a half, two inches in, it just starts getting warm. And I have no idea what’s going on here, but then within just no time at all, my feet are toasty warm, my hands are toasty warm. But my earlobes are actually like hot. And I could actually see in my peripheral vision steam coming off my shoulders. I get up on the rope till I ski down fast and I could ski fast. You know, I can definitely do 30, 40 miles an hour down. I ski down. So that means the wind chill factors through the roof. I go up the top and I ski down. I cruised in the lodge, I mean I was just completely toasty, toasty warm. And like I said, the hot ball was about, maybe, it was about the size of a golf ball, almost exactly. The speed at which it just permeated me, and I was just immediately warm, was pretty incredible.

Rick: I remember Deepak Chopra telling a story about how he went to Nepal or Tibet. Probably it was Nepal or something, and met with some yogis who took him out at night. And they took, you know, stripped down to their loincloths and wrapped wet sheets around themselves and sat in the snow, and Deepak watched as steam started rising and the sheets started drying out and the yogis were like perfectly warm. And so, and obviously, they’ve got a name for this, Tummo. So it seems like it has been a practice that people have engaged in and you know, you didn’t know it was a practice, but it just happened to you spontaneously.

David: Yeah, I’m certain at that point in time if I had sat on an ice cube naked I would have been just as happy. I mean, if you think about it, if you’re skiing down even at 30 miles an hour, I think the wind chill factor is like 50 or 60 below zero.

Rick: Yeah.

David: 60 below zero, if you spit, it will turn to ice well before it hits the ground.

Rick: Yeah.

David: And I was toasty warm, wearing practically nothing.

Rick: Interesting. Okay, so it’s an experience we don’t, I don’t, is there any kind of like cosmic conclusion we can draw from it, or was it just one of those amazing things that have happened to you in your life?

David: Well, okay, so that would be one of the things that I would suggest to new students is to…

Rick: Don’t try this at home.

David: Not, no, I would say just don’t throw a bunch of cosmic conclusions to anything that’s happening to you.

Rick: Right. You know, these days with Wim Hof, there’s all this popularity of ice baths, and people are getting in ice baths and said to be good for your physiology. I know Joe Rogan apparently takes his ice bath with him when he travels and all kinds of stuff.

David: Well, that, you know, it’s interesting. I take hot cold showers every day. So I shower and then at the end of the shower I turn it on full cold and I Enjoy the feeling at this point. I don’t go yikes anymore and and taking a hot-cold shower or doing cold baths is also, there are many things that can happen with that. Like an example, if a person is kind of out of sorts or has some problems with beings or whatever that can clear that out that fast. It can, it can. Hot-cold showers can be phenomenally useful for kind of a mechanical way to readjust yourself. Like it’s along the same lines as fasting, along the same lines as asanas. They help really break up certain energies and also move certain energies through your space. You know, actually when you, when I meditate, when I was doing yoga kind of traditional, I was doing mainly meditation and then you would do the asanas afterwards, because the asanas move the energies from meditation into the nadis, the myelin sheath all of that, and that’s really the purpose of the, in my mind. That was the purpose of the asanas. Meditation was, meditation would break up the low-hanging fruit. It would start bringing big energies into the space that would help break up some of the bigger issues. And then when you finish with that, the asanas would help to then stretch those things out and into, throughout all the nadis, and equalize the high pressures and low pressures and all of that.

Rick: Okay. All right going down the list. Don’t mean to rush you along but I want to make sure we get into a lot of these things-

David: Yeah, that’s a really loaded word. So if anybody wants to think that, that’s not what happened, that’s fine with me. But, so what had happened is I had done this kind of grand experiment where I put down the books because the books basically brought me to the conclusion that you’re supposed to put the books down at some point in time and actually do math time. Otherwise, you’re just going to start getting into more and more concepts of concepts, of concepts, concepts. And then pretty soon, you’ll start believing them even though you don’t really have any foundation in those. And I really didn’t want to do that. That was a really big, big deal. I did not want to have a belief system. I wanted, I remember somebody saying, “Don’t believe anything I say. Just do these practices and you will come to know these things. Or not.”

Rick: Yeah, the Buddha said something like that. Or you may not.

David: Yeah, yeah. Or you may not. Big time to heart. That was one of the biggest attractions to Buddhism and to the Indian traditions and a lot of Eastern traditions was that they really invited you. The beliefs were a hindrance and that they’re not necessary. So anyway, I had done this experiment where I’d become like a vegan and I had abstained from, you know, caffeine and things like that, stimulus. I had all kinds of traditional stuff that I was doing, practice that I was doing, and this was during college years. So I was missing out on a lot of partying. But, and I really was missing out on a lot of partying because, you know, sometimes people would open up a dorm room and I’d be sitting there meditating or studying. One of the two, most of the time, not all the time, not like I was the greatest student on the planet. I had been doing this for like two years. And I had actually come to the conclusion that I was going to quit, that all the stuff that was coming out of Maharishi Mahesh Yogi Institute, you know, all the fantastic reasons you should meditate, I was getting all of those. You know, my hand-eye coordination was better. I was calmer. I had more patience. There were just all the things that you get from meditation that the scientists were starting to come out with. I was getting all that. I felt fantastic. In some cases I remember, obviously, it had an effect on me. I remember somebody asked me if I was a holy person once when I was in a library. Or I mean in a bookstore. And I was surprised by that. But my energy was obviously affected on some level. But the fact was I couldn’t see, you know, I wasn’t trying to have siddhis, I wasn’t trying to have unbelievable experiences. But I would have thought that by two years of really doing it, that I’d been thrown a bone. You know? Some kind of bone that made me feel like maybe some of the more extraordinary stuff is actually real. But I did feel fantastic. But I decided that week to kind of throw in the towel. That however great I felt, I felt, I was not, that it didn’t seem like I was getting anything miraculous out of it. And so there was this group, it was a Gurdjieff group that I went to one last time and I was just standing there. And then suddenly, I have to show, suddenly it felt like my whole face was being squished back and squashed in the front. Like if you, it had the very exact feeling of like if you have two magnets and you put positive to positive or negative to negative and they push against each other. They have that kind of fuzzy pushing. It’s just that this huge push was across my face and there was nothing in front of me pushing. And it was the most bizarre, one of the most bizarre feelings that I’d ever had. And I’d never read anything anywhere about something like this. And so I didn’t, in any way, shape or form, recognize it for what it was. But then immediately I was hearing somebody’s thoughts. I went to a guy that was kind of thought to be knowledgeable at that group and asked him some questions. And I could hear his thoughts completely as clear as day in his head and center of my head. And I mean, and so then I responded to his thoughts before he said them. And then I heard him ask a question in his head about what I had just done, and I responded to that before he said anything. And then finally, he said, “Stop, stop.” He said, “I need to say this out loud.” You know, and so that was the first thing. You know, I ended up, what’s interesting is that I ended up leaving, in a sense, my practice for a while. And because I really had, some part of me had just stopped practicing and was like it was done. But at the same time, now all of a sudden all this stuff opened up and soon, you know, I was seeing auras with my eyes open. And over the next several years, just all kinds of things happened. I was seeing futures and learning about futures and that was really interesting. And clairsentience sent you in this, I mean the list is on and on. All kinds of stuff happened over the next 10-20 years.

Rick: Okay, and many of which you talk about in the subsequent points that you sent me. So I’m not sure if we’ll have time to get to all these or not, but you have a list in front of you also. So you know, looking down- 1985. The next point we haven’t discussed is Sleeping Puppy, but just scan a bit and pick out the ones you feel like you really want to talk about. And if you’re skipping one that I really want you to talk about, I’ll mention it. We can always come back to do some more if we have extra time.

David: So probably real quickly let’s go through the Kundalini experiences.

Rick: Okay.

David: Just because…

Rick: And at some point I want to talk about the channeling too, but go ahead and do the Kundalini experiences.

David: Okay. Yeah, the Kundalini experiences, and I can, you know, they don’t have to be big things. So the next big Kundalini experience was approximately 1987. I was meditating for about 14 hours and then just absolutely out of nowhere, a volcano explodes from the base of my spine, blew me out the top of my head. The volcano was about the size of a fire hydrant and every bit as active as a fire hydrant, except it was all electrical and it just shot out. It was probably this big in the base. And then it went fully outside my head and I ended up floating above my head for a while while this volcano was going off. And I don’t know how long that occurred. But then I was conscious while that was happening and kind of delightfully conscious at that time. And then slowly it started to recede and I came back into my head. And then as I came back into my head, I was in a past life and I don’t really know where. It was probably Ireland or Scotland or something. And I was in a fairly remote area that I enjoyed traveling around. And so I basically experienced that life for a while from viewing that life, not fully being in it. And then I ended up meditating for another four hours.

Rick: Just to put the finishing touches on it. (both laughing)

David: And then the other one, what was the last one? Oh, the other one. So, some of your listeners now or in the future may have a different opinion on what this last one is. I’ve never heard anything like this. And so I’ll just tell you what it is, but I call it Kundalini. I think it’s Kundalini, though I’m open to, you know, between the Tibetans and the Indians, I can’t imagine that this hasn’t happened before. And so someone can probably tell me what it is. But anyway, so I’m just driving along in my car. And so, you know, a drinking fountain, you have a drinking fountain that, you know, has good pressure, not a lot of pressure, and the water’s kind of thick, you know, maybe about an inch diameter, it comes out. It’s not the kind when you press it that it hits you in the face, but it’s kind of, just makes a nice, kind of “mozies into a nice arc.”

Rick: Right.

David: So I’m driving along and all of a sudden, from the base of my spine, inside my spine, right in the middle of it, “boom.” Just this tube of water comes. I mean, it felt like water. It felt like tepid water, a tube of water just came up the back of my spine, inside my spine. And then at one point in time, about this height, it came around, half of it came around, or some of it came around, and at the side. I don’t know if you guys are seeing this, so at about my side here.

Rick: And a lot of people listen to this as an audio podcast, so you also want to say, when you say this height, you might say near my ribs or something.

David: So it was about the height of my nipple. And it comes around and right about at that same height, maybe a little bit below where the ribs are, it fills up this thing that’s about the size of a family pizza across my entire chest. And it fills the whole thing up and it’s maybe about an inch, inch and a half thick.

Rick: No, obviously, for those, just to avoid confusion, so there was not a physical thing the size of a family pizza, but you’re talking about some subtle astral level or something.

David: Yeah.

Rick: You envisioned something that was getting filled, that an external observer would not have seen.

David: Oh, no, an observer wouldn’t have seen it, but I was not envisioning it. It was just happening.

Rick: Yeah.

David: And it was the most bizarre, I mean, I’m driving my car, you know. I’m on my way to Trader Joe’s and all of a sudden this water fountain, this low pressure water fountain just cruises up the back of my spine. Part of it curls around to the front and then this huge whoopee cushion gets filled up in my chest area. You know, and then some of the energy went up the top of my head. But I mean, so many things have happened to me that I took it in stride. And this happened in the last 10 years. The last 10 years, something pretty much ridiculous has happened to me every day or week or month. It just happens constantly.

Rick: Never a dull moment, right?

David: No. And so, this was just one of those things. And then it became a field later. But anyway, so I call that a Kundalini experience.

Rick: And was it a shift such that your life was different in some way after that? Or was it just a one-off thing that happened one day and then you’re back to normal?

David: Well, that gets to this whole 10-year thing. I didn’t teach or go out into the public for because I was getting knocked out by some change almost every day or every other day or weekly for the last 10 years.

Rick: What do you mean by knocked out?

David: Well, I mean, in other words, yeah, I don’t mean knocked out, but I…

Rick: You mean kind of blasted by some powerful thing?

David: Well, I’ll give you an example. Quite often, if I’m driving in my car somewhere, the energies get so big that I have to pull over because I’m afraid something might be happening while I’m driving a car. Or often, sometimes my wife’s, I’m driving, we’re driving somewhere, Tahoe or something, and normally I do the driving. But I will say, “I have to pull over, you need to drive.” And it’s because I just absolutely have to close my eyes, something’s happening. Initially when I first woke up, it happened all the time, but it was part of the the initial awakening. It was like two years where I was on the couch half the time. A lot of times my wife would ask me, “Where are you?” I’d be at some parking lot, tears coming out of my eyes for six hours at a time, just in gratitude. But what was happening in the last ten years since really the first couple of years is… Right about the time that I had this really big, abiding awakening. I also took up Qigong. I think based on my energetic systems prior to starting Qigong, a lot of stuff was happening. Tiny channels, smaller than a hair, were getting six inches wide. The channels were, you know, at one point in time I’m walking around like I had these tubular, huge tubular energy channels that I felt like the Michelin Man. I’m walking around just feeling bizarre with this just huge channels. And then then I remember one day I just was, I sat back on the bed and then “poof” the channels melded into one channel. And I until that happened, I didn’t know they had joints. But when they melded into one. I knew they had joints and then they fade into, into fields of energy is why, if I’m teaching, I would say we have a gross physical, then we have the gross subtle, and then we have the subtle bodies. And the subtle bodies don’t exist yet and they’re not latent, meaning they’re different than the chakras. And that the chakras and all that, if you’re not dissipating energy and your energies start building and you’re the rigidified energies that are unnatural or gotten rid of, then the natural pathways will start increasing and really growing. But then at a certain point in time, if you continue not dissipating energies and certain things happen, then these things, some things mutate into fields that didn’t exist before. And they can only exist if certain energies have transformed. And so then you start having the subtle bodies, which it’s weird to call the chakra system, the chakras, the gross subtle. Because they’re not very gross. They’re very, very fine. They’re phenomenally fine. But the subtle bodies that can be created from effort are different. Anyway, and so I was getting clobbered with some of that. Clobbered in the sense of that I just had to sit oftentimes, or I had to be alone, or I had to not be doing something.

Rick: In your experience, do you feel like you are rather unusual in that most people, even if they’re undergoing profound spiritual development, don’t have such dramatic experiences. Do you think that your particular constitution is wired to have more vivid experiences than ordinary, or do you think that the kinds of things you experience will inevitably, that everyone will inevitably encounter such things somewhere along their path?

David: Yeah, I was extremely resistant to thinking I was different for a very long time. And I don’t think I’m different in the sense of being… obviously different in the sense that I’ve had a whole lot of experiences that very few people have had. Or that very few people have had the group. You know, if you take each isolated thing, quite a few people have had some of those experiences. But my personal opinion is that most of us are intergalactic spaceships, and we live and die inside the inner tube of one tire.

Rick: In other words, in my father’s house there are many mansions, but we’re sitting in a closet.

David: Yeah, and then some of us, you know, get up to the cockpit and we drive around like it’s a bus.

Rick: Yeah. And I interpret that metaphor to mean like, you know, we’re, you know, like we’ve got this $500,000 Ferrari and we’re stuck in traffic on the, you know, I-10 or something.

David: But we’re having a blast. This is actually, this is alluding to what all the teachings say regarding not getting stuck on a siddhi. So something fantastic can happen.

Rick: S-I-D-D-H-I, I want to make sure people have caught that word.

David: Yeah, siddhis. You know, like special abilities.

Rick: In other words, extra abilities.

David: Right. Parapsychological stuff. So, it is really easy for those things to become detours. And you know, it’s always interesting in the traditions, they’ll say, “Oh, these are detours, don’t worry about that, don’t even talk about it, it’s not your goal.” And yet at the same time, the students always know every one of the things that the teacher has achieved. Because that’s kind of like a sign or whatever. And there’s no question about it that all these abilities, different abilities that we have, can be brought up. There’s no question about it. You look at the average person, their chakras are barely… you know, most people are centered in two chakras. They have one main chakra, and they have a backup chakra that is complimentary. And then many of the rest of their chakras are not particularly very well developed. Most people’s aura doesn’t really extend much below the hips, unless they’re an athlete or a dancer or a yogi, you know, a person really physical. You can go into whole countries where, by and large, a lot of the people are not very well lit up. You can go into siddhis, they’re much more lit up. Complexity definitely exercises people more. But a whole lot of the abilities that are within us, we use all the time, we’re just not really aware of it. You know, there’s times when you turn around because you don’t know why and there’s somebody staring at you. And that’s just, that’s a very clear awareness that most people are not aware of. And there’s just all kinds of stuff that we bat down.

Rick: Rupert Sheldrake wrote a whole book about that, about the sense of being stared at.

David: Yeah.

Rick: You know, I heard a talk by him recently and he said that private eyes, you know, detectives know about this. And if they’re following somebody, they’ll be very careful not to look at the person’s back because the person will turn around and blow their cover. So, they kind of, they can’t lose the guy, but they look at his feet. and somehow that doesn’t trigger the awareness that they’re being stared at.

David: Well, example, I used to, when I was really practicing a lot of psychic stuff, so many things I was, you know, really honed in on. One of which was if a policeman was around. So, if I was driving a car and suddenly somebody, and all of a sudden my first chakra was in a heightened state. You know, most of us in the West, our first chakra is never in a heightened state because we’re not worried about, you know,

Rick: Survival. Things that would make our tigers attacking us.

David: Yeah. But a police with a radar gun who’s trying to nail you, most of those guys are running on first chakra. They’re very in tune to anomalies, people that are a threat, and or whatever. So if I’m driving along and all of a sudden my first chakra goes off, I slow down right away because there’s definitely a speed trap happening, girl, and you know.

Rick: But, yeah, yeah.

David: And, but, I mean, what’s going on on an energetic level is so phenomenal. Or here’s another one. People with beautiful thought forms, beautiful thought forms hanging out. And also, this is a great one. So if you have, let’s say, this is really interesting for our times. So let’s say you’re listening to hate radio, and you are really into five or six channels of hate radio, you know, and so your tuning forks for the hate radio are just, they’re right around you. So let’s say you’re eating a sandwich, you’re having a good time, or you’re driving a car, you’re having a good time, you’re listening to music, and somebody drives by you close enough, and they’re listening to hate radio. That vibration, that tuning fork energy reaches your tuning forks, and “poof,” suddenly you’re starting to think politics, even though five seconds earlier, one second earlier, you’re having a great time listening to the Beatles or something. And now all of a sudden, you know, your head’s gone off on this political crap and you can’t get it out of your head. And it’s all because somebody literally, because somebody drove by and their tuning fork got your tuning fork going.

Rick: Yeah, that’s interesting.

David: We think we’re originating all these thoughts and it is as automatic as that.

Rick: Yeah, we’re all little transmitter receivers. I was having a conversation with somebody today about collective consciousness and how at a subtle level, collective consciousness is like this giant sponge, if you will, which absorbs the influences that we all generate and then, you know, conveys them between us and so on, and how the influences can generate, well, to switch metaphors, it can be like a cloud where the static electricity builds up to such an extent that the cloud can’t hold anymore and then it strikes out as lightning. So, like that, you know, tension can collect in collective consciousness to the point where a war breaks out because it can’t take anymore. So, it’s a whole subtle phenomenon. So, what’s going on in the world is not just politics and economics and religions battling each other and so on. There’s a whole ebb and flow in the, I guess Jung called it, the collective unconscious that interlinks us all.

David: Yeah.

Rick: I’m just pontificating for a moment, but feel free to comment on that if you want.

David: Well, we probably have better subjects.

Rick: Okay, better subjects. So here’s a question. Well, actually, I’m going to have you tell a story. You were just talking about speed traps. Tell the story of… where is it? Ah, seeing futures. Sears Point to Vallejo, Highway 37.

David: Yeah, so well, there was the two stories are fun that I, that I sent to you. So one is, it was, it was fairly late at night. I had just spent three, four hours at the San Rafael Berkeley Psychic Institute and I’ve been doing readings for that whole time. So I was in a great space and… So, I’m driving home to Vallejo and on the way there, there’s this place where you turn off of the Sears Point Raceway area. I think it’s a different name now. You go down 37 and there’s water on each side. So it’s flat and you can do 100 miles an hour and you’re not gonna get pulled over. So I did, I would typically go 100 miles an hour there. So I was going up to about 100 miles an hour. I think it was like 90 something and I saw this very clear video of my right front tire popping and me go flying off into the in the swamp basically and landing upside down. Very, very clear full video. So I started slowing down. I wasn’t in any rush to begin with and this was a full-on video, meaning that’s the way futures show is that typically shows like an exact video what’s about to happen or or a knowingness of extremely strong knowing as just differences. But you can change things. You can change them. I learned that so I slowed down to kind of…

Rick: And you’re doing a hundred miles an hour in the fog. Okay?

David: Well, it wasn’t really foggy. But I mean, you know, it was kind of foggy, but it was like visibility was still, visibility was still good.

Rick: Right.

David: Still several miles, but it was, I guess what I’m saying, it was just one of those muddy,

Rick: Kinda dark and sudden.

David: Yeah, yeah, and it was like 11, it was like 10: 30, 11 o’clock or even maybe later. So, what I decided was that at the end of the straightaway is this like 7-11 kind of place that has really pretty lousy energy. Well, oddly enough, really bad energy can be refreshing at times because when things are just kind of sleepy and trancy or whatever, really, really lousy energy will kind of, it’s like a cold shower.

Rick: It grounds you.

David: Not particularly, yeah, exactly. It’s not particularly fun, but it pops you, you know, in your head and kind of, you know, revivifies everything. So I walked in there, energy was horrible, just fantastic. Grab some water, paid for my water, I get in the car, I turn the car on, and I’m driving out the parking lot you know two, three miles an hour and I no sooner turn to the right, my right front tire pops. And it’s not a slow Leak. It just dang, you know, gone. So I pull over and at that point in time I’m smiling because that tire obviously, I was concerned because now I have a flat tire. But another part of me is totally happy because I saw that and

Rick: Yeah.

David: Yeah, and I had that happen. So the tire had to blow, but it could blow at 100 miles an hour with some big problems or apparently at 2 miles an hour. So I was very happy and it was just fun. That’s fun, the universe coming through like that. So then it’s like 11 something at night and there’s Vallejo. Vallejo has mixed reputation. And anyway, there happened to be four black guys that were walking on the other side of the street and they now are walking directly to me. And, yeah, it didn’t really necessarily present a problem, but I was concerned a bit. And long story short, they came over and changed the tire for me. (laughing)

Rick: And then you gave him a ride someplace.

David: So then I asked if they wanted a ride. I gave him a ride, you know, and so I was just, I couldn’t have been, I mean, it was as good as it gets, you know, the tire blew in a perfectly safe situation. The tire was changed for me and I got to give him a ride somewhere. I mean, you know, how ridiculous is that?

Rick: That’s cool. Somebody sent in a question here. Let’s see, William Bochs from Miami. I’m going to ask you something in addition to his question. His question is, has he had to deal with the demonic? Has he ever been attacked? And I wanted you to talk a little bit about your channeling experience, if this would be an appropriate place to add that in, because you described that and you gave some very, what I consider to be important warnings about channeling that I think should be more widely known. So hopefully that’s not a, you know, disconnected idea, but, you know, go ahead.

David: No, I think it’s great.

Rick: Yeah.

David: So, one of the most popular things these days is the spiritual warrior. And, um…

Rick: You mean like Carlos Castaneda kind of stuff?

David: Well, there’s Carlos Castaneda, but I mean, there’s other books since then where they really get into the spiritual warrior. If you really look at Carlos Castaneda, he was not a spiritual warrior in the sense of… But anyway, the point is that there’s a lot of teachings, a lot of practices where you learn to put up guards, you learn to put up all kinds of ways in which you keep negative energy out of your space, and how to get rid of negative energy, and things along the line of exorcism and/or let’s say clearing spirits out of a house or doing that. I’ve done all those things.

Rick: Yeah, and let me, before you continue, let me add that three people I’ve interviewed have gotten in touch with me, independent of one another, and said that just out of the blue, they found themselves having come under attack by negative entities and they were wondering if I knew what to do about it or if I could recommend someone to them. And one of them was sort of an animal communicator, so she was opening herself up to sort of psychic abilities. The other guy, yeah, he was sort of into giving Shaktipat and being open to this and that. And the other one, I don’t know any such details, but in every case, obviously, these are people who had undergone some kind of spiritual awakening and who are kind of open in ways that the average person isn’t, and then out of the blue, unexpectedly, they found themselves being assailed by some negative entities, and it wasn’t just a one-off deal. It was continuing for awhile, and they were trying to get out of it. So I just wanted to throw that in for you to embellish your comments with.

David: Yeah. God, this is a huge subject. There’s a part of me that wants to just start with what I guess I will start with. But it may seem phenomenally simplistic and, that is, that all of the energies that would attack you are lower levels of energy. And so as your energy gets to a certain point, the negative entities, they don’t exist. They don’t go there. And that was one of the funnest things when I got to know Master Yao is that quite a few times I was already quite well along on all this stuff. And I didn’t know how much Master Yao knew. But a lot of Chinese are quite superstitious and/or aware of spirit, but also very much resistant to it. And the resistance is a huge problem because it attracts them. It’s like flypaper. If you’re extremely in resistence to it, they’re going to stick to you. Or, you know, they may. But so…

Rick: Is that saying, “that which you resist persists?”

David: Yeah, yeah. But, well, and that’s also what Lewis used to say. “If you resist, you become.” Very famous saying with Lewis. He was wonderful. But so here was Master Yao telling these people, you know, basically raise your energy, raise your energy. And that was, but that was like all he said. Just raise your energy, like don’t worry about this. Just move your energy up and they won’t be there. It’s kind of like, you know, a sewer rat doesn’t go to dinner at a five-star restaurant. Though, I mean, they may be there at night or something like that. But my point is that certain types of beings, they’re uncomfortable at a certain level. They’re not there. You can’t miss them. They stick out like sore thumbs. They’re completely ineffectual. And the other thing is that, and this is one of the hardest things to hear, 99.99% of the negative entities are no bigger and no more powerful than a gnat, but your resistance turns them into an elephant. And so, one of the biggest disservices that religions do when they preach devil, they’re really teaching devil worship because they teach how powerful these negative entities are, and in reality, they’re phenomenally not powerful. And they only are really relegated to a realm that is quite low. Another disservice that the religions do is they teach that a god believes in eternal torture in hell realms. There’s no being that’s an inch tall that believes in eternal torture of anything. It’s time we get over some of that nonsense. But, so what I’m saying about this seems is extraordinarily simplified because, but I don’t want to give the idea that it really takes much to rise above this. For a huge number of people, negative entities, things like that, are not a problem. It’s not because they’re special. It’s because maybe they’ve never been taught to fear those things. They’ve never been close to somebody that’s been taken over by that kind of stuff and because they naturally don’t vibrate at levels where much of that exists. And that’s not to say that they’re higher people or lower people, but in the particular life that they’re at right now, they’re not vibrating at an energy level that is attracting that. And it could well be because they haven’t been taught to fear those things, which shouldn’t be feared. They shouldn’t be feared at all. That said, so if you could repeat the question.

Rick: Yeah, okay, I’ll repeat William’s question. I have another follow-up question. He said, “Have you had to deal with the demonic or have you ever been attacked?”

David: Okay, so when I was younger, I started learning all about this kind of stuff. Now, at one point in time, I used to play higher limit poker and I was very familiar with my energy at the time. And at the same time you’re playing higher limit, you got people that are, they know how to whack and throw energy like you’ve never seen. And so by the time that I got really into certain energy stuff, I was used to being with very bad people and I was used to being around certain types of energy that were rough energy. And then I started learning about psychic defense and all this kind of stuff, all of which is very real. It’s all very real. You can learn all that kind of stuff and everything else. I learned how to become invisible. That’s not as difficult as it would sound. I could hear things and you can see darkness in certain energies and all kinds of things. And then also you can do things to beings that will make them understand that they’re not, they don’t have any choice in certain things. If they wanna continue coming at me, they’re gonna have very serious problems. But the problems are more in the sense of taking that being back to where they got stuck.

Rick: And again, that’s actually someone, thereby helping to liberate them?

David: Yeah, yeah. That’s, again, that’s why also the idea of eternal torture of some being. If you take a being, if you take Hitler back to a certain point, at a certain point in time, he’s just a boy, and at some point in time, he gets stuck. Obviously a very charged word, or his name, but people get stuck. And then also a lot of problems are actual chemical imbalances in people and stuff like that. But when you’re talking about beings, the vast majority of the beings are nothing. But like I said, they’re like a gnat, except because of your fears, they are every bit as real as a bull elephant coming at you. Now when a bull elephant is coming at you, even if it’s a gnat, if you think it’s a bull elephant, it is very hard for you to not resist the idea of this bull elephant. And it’s very hard for you to get neutral because you’re already not neutral. You got a bull elephant breathing down your neck and things are happening. And what is happening is very real because the fear that’s being induced is utilizing the energies available to you much of which, you don’t know. So, you can get all kinds of bizarre things happening. And when it’s completely out of your control and you’re in a kind of a state of hysteria, many unnatural abilities and unnatural events can start happening because you’ve relinquished all control. I’m not saying it’s all within the same person. I think that’s probably a pretty good explanation that does a very horrible job of explaining what I’m talking about.

Rick: [Laughter] It’s okay. I was listening to a video the other day by a guy named Jamie Wheal, W-H-E-A-L, and he was talking about the phenomenon of so many spiritual teachers kind of crashing and burning. You know, they get to a certain point with fame and attention and all this stuff and they seem so bright and charismatic and then, you know, it goes south. And he likened it to the Lord of the Rings where, if there’s any little bit of ego, you have to sort of refine and purify the higher you go. And if there’s any little bit of ego left, it’s like a chink in the armor, and it can result in your downfall. Even Frodo, like when he got to the point of being able to throw the ring into the pit of fire, you know, his remnants of ego sort of flared up and he thought, “Oh, how great I can be!” And then what’s his name? You know, who’s the guy’s name? No, not Gandalf, the weird one. Yeah. And what’s it got in its little pockets is, yeah, Gollum. So, at that point, Gollum, like, bit his finger off and fell into the fire with the ring. And that was the end of the story. But had he not done that, Frodo would have succumbed to the temptation because the closer he got to the fire, which I think kind of could represent the sort of other dissolution of ego, the more the ego flared up in defense or in response. Anyway, that’s a little bit long-winded, but this phenomenon of teachers getting into trouble seems so common. And it, you know, it could be interpreted as they coming under attack because they’re emanating so much light and the dark forces don’t like it. Or maybe we could analyze it entirely in terms of their individual psychology and, you know, shadow stuff that hasn’t been dealt with. Or Irene’s saying, they just became teachers before they should have, which actually…

David: You became what?

Rick: Teachers perhaps before they should have.

David: Well, here’s what’s interesting. This is a good subject. Again, these are monstrous subjects. But so, you know, let’s say you have this massive awakening, you know, and I had the massive awakening. Just an enormous awakening, you’re gone. Your positions are gone. In every human being, some of the positions are like governors. You know you’re an asshole. You know you’ve got this or that problem. And so, you have these governors.

Rick: Governors meaning like that prevents the car from going any faster?

David: Yeah. A limit. A speed limit. Yeah, exactly. Yeah. You know, it’s like, exactly. Cars used to have governors where you couldn’t go past a certain speed because the revolutions per minute would blow the engine up or whatever.

Rick: Right, I think rental cars still may have that.

David: Yeah, or your parents may have put some throttle on something so that you go so fast. Okay, so we have internally all kinds of throttles that will, you know, a healthy person has all kinds of throttles where they, you know, a typical throttle is you put clothes on before you go outside because a lot of people don’t want to see you walking around naked. And you don’t really want to go to a rubber room that day. You could call that a throttle, but that’s a thing you know you don’t do.

Rick: Right, but you mean a governor, not a throttle. A limitation.

David: Yeah. In other words, there are things you do…

Rick: A constraint, a restraint, or a constraint.

David: Yeah, there’s certain appropriateness that you, of all kinds of things that you have inculcated into your beingness, and you have a massive awakening, throttles are gone as well. And literally, you may have been an introverted, embarrassed person that would never walk around naked and you wake up and you could walk outside stark naked, wouldn’t matter to you at all, other than the fact that you know it would matter to them. Your certain vistas are certain fear levels that used to hold you back, they’re gone. And you don’t necessarily feel like testing the water. It’s just they’re gone. There’s just all kinds of fear is gone from your space. There’s a huge lightness. There’s all kinds of grasping, you know, solid position, this solid that, that’s all gone. And this is a huge problem for people. This is one of the things I was alluding to earlier. If you have meditated a lot and suddenly all this stuff is gone, you’re already acclimated to not re-grabbing onto your positions. But, as you brought up many, many times, there’s laitia vidya. But I want to say before we go into it…

Rick: Which means faint remains of ignorance.

David: Yeah.

Rick: And let me just reflect on something you just said before you go on, which is I was watching a documentary about Andrew Cohen the other night called “How I Started a Cult.” And they showed footage of him when he was younger in his cult saying, “I have absolutely no doubt about myself. I have absolutely no, you know, constraints. Whatever I do is right spontaneously,” and so on and so forth. Meanwhile, they’re shaving their heads, they’re getting weirder and weirder, and then it juxtaposed to now where they’re interviewing him and he’s saying, “I don’t know what happened to me. I was off my rocker and I didn’t realize it. I was doing all this crazy stuff.” And you know, so, I mean, it’s an example like you just said of you have this blowout awakening and there are no constraints. You feel like, “I’m perfect. I can do whatever I want.”

David: Well, even if you don’t feel perfect or even if you don’t feel like you can do whatever you want. It isn’t like you, it isn’t like your teachers are no longer there waiting to whack you. It’s like, first of all, they aren’t anymore, but the other thing is you just don’t care. But it’s not like you don’t care like they’re lower than me. It’s simply that you do not care. Not in a cold sense or anything else. In other words, this part to you that is attached to the cultural conditioning, a huge amount of it is just gone. It’s just no longer there.

Rick: So what I hear you saying is not just that it’s because you’re a teacher that you feel like you’re entitled to do whatever you want. But that somehow an actual spiritual awakening, not a complete one, but a partial spiritual awakening can blow out all your limiting factors, all your governors, all your restraints, constraints, and make you feel kind of like you no longer have the sort of critical feedback of yourself.

David: There’s that, and then the other thing is it becomes very difficult not to realize that the world out there is just walking in fear. It is just everywhere. You know, now the great thing is that we’re at a time in history where we’re in less fear than we have ever been in the history of humanity. I don’t, I don’t, obviously there’s massive exceptions and obviously a couple hundred years ago we didn’t have nuclear warheads or anything else. One of the reasons that I’ve come to conclude, one of the reasons we’re having so many awakenings right now, I call it the age of the free walker, and I place it as having started around 2015, give or take. Because a series of events have led up to around 2015 where humanity is now in a place it’s just never been ever for, let’s say, a critical mass of people. Critical mass could be 10 million people or it could be less, could be way more. But the point is that we’re walking around now so much less under the thumb of dictators, lords, kings. We’re walking around so much more, many of us are, obviously not everybody, are walking around. We’ve got insurance for our apartment, insurance for our car. We have health insurance or we have universal health insurance. We have a freezer with frozen things in it, and then a refrigerator, and we’ve got cash, and you can have business insurance. And if I want to wear a tattoo, 30, 40 years ago, you know, Rick, you’re old enough, 30, different. Guys the same way, unless you had like a flag from, you know, or a battleship from the Navy, which was viewed completely as a mistake, but one that was obviously something you probably did when you were drunk. Tattoos couldn’t be shown. Gay people, extraordinarily in the closet. I’m not saying they’re not, but the point is that lots of these people, you know, they they can be living in Georgia, working for a company in Australia. And now we know what that means, that they’re at home from, you know, online. And the reason, just to let, just to kind of finish this, one of the things, the reason I say 2015 is because obviously we had the internet, and we had all these things. But around 2015, 3D printing came in. And you may think that’s not a big deal, but 3D printing and universal healthcare actually, made it so that the big corporations really don’t have the big thumb they used to. It used to be if you had a fantastic idea, you’d make it out of balsa wood, it didn’t work and you’d show it to somebody, and they could steal it from you fairly easily, or they may pay for it. But they usually pay you nothing because you couldn’t show ’em a working thing. Now, you know, I go to the Consumer Electronics Show every year.

Rick: Oh, that’s it. You’re an inventor. Okay, so keep going.

David: Yeah, well, so the thing is, you have a fantastic idea. You can 3D print it for a few thousand bucks, and you can show up at a show. If you can’t get any interest with the big guys, but you’re positive you have a good product, you can show up for $5,000 with a booth at CES and show your working product. And I mean, you can actually, somebody can come by and say, you know, I love your product, but you should change this. “Boom,” that night you go home and you print out a different one with the new improved thing, right on time, immediately. It used to be only not long ago, you would have to go to a company like Mattel or some big manufacturer, and they’d tell you, you know, it’s going to cost us a million dollars in molds to make this thing, just to see if it works. And we’re not sure if it’s going to be a big success and everything else. So we’ll give you a quarter of a quarter of a quarter of a percent. But nowadays you can walk in with a complete working model and if they’re not interested and you know in your mind anyway that it’s a great idea, you can tell them, “Well, hey, you know, thank you for your time. I’m going to go to CES. If you do want to contact me in the meantime, you’re welcome to.” And so this is, and that with universal health care, where you can have a pre-existing condition and you aren’t, you know, stuck with this one job because you can’t possibly leave because if you do, I mean, you’re dead. Or your kid’s dead.

Rick: You’re referring to Obamacare, by the way.

David: Yeah, exactly. But I mean, that’s in the United States. If you look in many other countries.

Rick: I would say better.

David: Yeah, way better. And so, the reason I’m bringing this up as far as awakening is that our systems, many of us, again, I mean, I mean, there’s massive exceptions, so I’m not trying to say that this has solved anything. But there are a lot of people walking around now who do not have an inculcation in their physical, gross physical, gross subtle, subtle bodies of fear from religions, of fear from losing everything, of fear of someone seeing a tattoo, of fear of, you know, I can’t go anywhere, I’m a female. Women are able to move forward on levels that 30 years ago, I didn’t realize until I was studying a lot of this stuff. In the 1970s, my wife’s mother couldn’t get her vacuum cleaner. You know that famous vacuum cleaner story where you, you know, I thought this was the 50s where Hoover used to sell vacuums and they were fairly expensive, but they wouldn’t sell them to the housewife that wanted to buy them. They had to get permission from the husband.

Rick: Right.

David: Well, this, I didn’t know this was… even to get a credit card and stuff, women needed to get permission. Not that long ago.

Rick: Yeah, in the 70s.

David: In the 70s.

Rick: Right.

David: You know, well, anyway. Well, anyway, that’s just…

Rick: Remember Virginia Slims? You’ve come a long way, baby, to get where you got to today. You’ve got your own cigarette now, baby. You’ve come a long, long way. What a ridiculous ad that was. Anyway, I don’t want to eat up too much of our time with this, but I just want to mention very… in one point, that AI is going to be a huge game changer.

David: Massive.

Rick: Much more than the 3D printer, believe me.

David: Well, yeah, I mean, but it’s and, and so what’s happened is the ability of the little guy to do it all has just as just blossomed and, you know. I mean, there’s other things like the passport system, all these, the United Nations, and all these nations getting together and making it so that people can travel relatively freely. The internet obviously makes travel fantastically, you know, super quick and communication, super quick. And yeah, AI, absolutely. AI is going to now put massive computing power in the hands of everyone. And however scary it might be, it also is going to be fantastic for the little guy. And so the little guy can sprout into a very big tree. Two, three guild master. And if the guild master decided he liked your daughter, you better make it so that she’s available to him. All this kind of stuff. It was horrible. And that’s gone. That’s gone. But the fear, really a huge amount of fear is no longer in our systems. And a lot of the fear and a lot of the trance of the fear is why so many people live their lives inside the inner tube of an intergalactic spaceship and never leave it. And many, many, many people are not in fear of that. They’re wandering around this thing they call their body more, in a much more relaxed way, and “poof,” people are waking up. And they’re waking up in many ways, not because of some, necessarily because of some huge spiritual thing, simply because we’re reaching a point where a huge amount of our finest parts are able to relax.

Rick: That’s great. And I would say that that relaxation, that reduction of fear, is not only a surface phenomenon, it’s symptomatic of a shift in collective consciousness or the underlying field of consciousness of which the surface phenomena are expressions or manifestations. And we can go on and on about that, but go ahead, you want to say something?

David: Yeah, there’s something that came to me a few years ago that I could, I was listening to, I’ve listened to almost all of your interviews, certainly 80%. And the word “devotion” came up quite a bit. And I never really understood devotion.

Rick: It sounded like you did. You’d sit in the parking lot crying for six hours, overcome with gratitude. That sounds like devotion.

David: But what was weird is I didn’t have gratitude to anything. I just felt overwhelming gratitude. But I didn’t have gratitude to anything. No object consciousness, non-object conscious. Anyway, so however I word this, I just want to kind of get it out there because I thought it was interesting. You know, I’d always looked at this subject from the standpoint of like, worship, which then means you kind of have to wholeheartedly believe in this stuff. Which a lot of times is always suspect, particularly for some of us, where we really, we don’t want to succumb to, you know, we’re braced against succumbing to certain beliefs without proofs or whatever. And discernment is an extremely good thing, so that’s great, but it shouldn’t be a wall. But, so I was really pondering on this, and then one day it just came to me as I’m walking up the dock. I mean I can tell you exactly where on the dock it happened, it just kind of came to me. And this is a little bit related to what we were talking about earlier. I remember a story, you know, where somebody had brought a picture of, I think it was Jesus, or whatever, to a supposedly high-level guy in India, and that guy immediately took that and put it on his, like, little thing where he put pictures of saints.

Rick: Altar kind of a thing, yeah.

David: Yeah, well, it was outside. It was just a thing where, but he inserted that picture. And it occurred to me that it didn’t look like the guy had told him the story of whoever this was. It might not have been Jesus. But then I realized, well, that’s not the point. What the point was that the person probably said something like, “This is a very high being.” And so, the person accepts that as the image of a very high being. And so, you don’t need to know. You don’t need to know about the being, but it raises your vibration up.

Rick: This is making you emotional. I bet you’re having your COVID cough attack, but I don’t think you’re getting emotional.

David: No, it’s making me emotional. This week in particular.

Rick: Explain why it gets you so emotional.

David: Well, part of it is because I’m going through something this particular week that’s just a big, huge, hard thing. But the other thing is that most of what we really call suffering is being stuck on lower energy vibrations. Some of which are really inculcated like we’ve just been talking about and luckily being less inculcated into us. And also some of them are just simply fears we don’t really have any longer because we’re insured and things can’t be just willy-nilly taken away from us because some lord is in a bad mood that day. And environmental things that used to be horrible, we can go into our house and not be affected by them or hide in our Tesla. And, you know, it will clear smoke and stuff like that before it reaches us. But we tend to be so stuck in nonsensical crap, religions that teach ridiculousness and fears of, you know, entities and stuff like that. So when you wake up, there is this idea that you wake up and the heavens just rain down on you and you’re suddenly at a heaven level. And that’s true and it’s not true. You’re still in a body. And so if your body and your horizons have never seen certain types of light, you don’t just suddenly go there. You’re not acclimated to those things. And so what’s useful is to actually do color meditations and look at gold and think and be in higher energies that you don’t typically, let’s say, stay at. It’s important when you awaken to take advantage of samadhi. Not everybody does. I didn’t want to do samadhi because it seemed like an indulgence.

Rick: What do you mean by “take advantage of samadhi?” In other words, learn to function from samadhi, like samyama, if you know what samyama is, you can function from that level and bring about different effects. You can learn to operate from that level. Is that what you’re…

David: No, I’m saying that you can be involved in practice to the level where you don’t want the siddhis to become a detour. You don’t want these extra abilities to become a detour. You don’t want the candy cane to be the big deal. And you get to this point where, I mean, you know, all these things are happening, and a lot of people would write ten books on them. But there’s, at least in my mind, there’s a part that’s just like, “Nope, nope, nope, nope. Not going to write a book. Not going to do a teaching. Not creating a belief system. Don’t want to be all Ron Hubbard. Blah, blah, blah.” But then all of a sudden when you reach certain points, you may still be just, there’s still maybe some automated level that just, “Nope, nope, nope, nope, nope.” And you need to really breathe it through your space. And then there is still a point where there’s energies that, they’re kind of scary. They’re not scary in a bad way.

Rick: You mean they’re so immense that it’s too much to handle? Or kind of overwhelming? Arjuna’s vision of Krishna in the 11th chapter of the Gita. He begged to have it and then when he finally had it He said “Too much, take it away.”

David: Yeah. To some extent and it’s also, it’s just like looking at different pictures of beautiful things. And just being in that. You know, if you’ve been listening to hard rock all your life, my favorites, you know Led Zeppelin, stuff like that. I like it cranked way up. I really enjoy that. At the same time, to someone who’s never listened to Pachelbel, they can shit on that stuff and think it’s too dainty. And so there’s still an acclamation to this amazing energy that is kind of inconceivable.

Rick: Yeah.

David: Jesus, here I am, full of waterworks.

Rick: I know what you’re talking about. I have a good friend who, you know, had long since awakened to her true nature and had some kind of unity consciousness state or whatever, but at a certain point, a heart started to expanding so much that she just couldn’t stop the tears. She’d have to wear dark glasses. I mean, she’d be in Trader Joe’s buying fish or something and the beauty of the situation was so much that she’d, you know, be weeping, you know, in the most mundane of circumstances just because of the, you know, the blossoming of the heart that was taking place. I think that’s what you’re talking about.

David: Yeah.

Rick: Yeah, which is great, should we all be so blessed to have that kind of thing. Well this is a very, I mean, we’re almost at the two hour point, and this is a very sweet, almost like a sweet place to end. But there are other things you wanted to talk about which we might not get to today, like fasting and stuff, and I still wanted to. I found the thing you wrote about channeling kind of interesting because you kind of got roped into doing a channeling session one time in front of a whole audience.

David: Yeah.

Rick: And you didn’t think you were going to be the channeler, but next thing you knew, they said go for it. But the reason I found that interesting and important is that you stated some cautions and warnings, because channeling is very popular these days. My most popular interview is Bashar, and people may not realize how dangerous it can be for the channeler and even possibly for those in the audience. You want to just tell that whole story a little bit in a nutshell and a few words of caution, perhaps?

David: Well, again, this was in the heyday of the Berkeley Psych Institute. I say heyday because at one point in time it was huge. There were thousands of students and teachers and many large institutes in several states. So getting together at night on a weekend or during a weekday wasn’t two or three people. Oftentimes it was 10 or 15, 20, 30, 40, 50, 60, 100 people. And actively doing all kinds of psychic readings and healings and all kinds of things. And one of the groups was a, one of the specialties in a sense was a medium group. You had to sign up to be in that and I never actually signed up there because I was not interested in it. Or another way of putting it is that I felt like I could do it without being trained much because I still to this day don’t. It’s not a particularly difficult thing to do. Every female is a medium. In other words, every female’s body is made to share another body with it and obviously another spirit with it. And certainly to any woman that’s been pregnant, it becomes rather obvious what it’s like to be carrying a child. I know the spirit in your body, but there’s certain levels of trance where you can speed your body, your energy up, and it makes it very easy to move in and out of your body, and it makes it very easy to bring other beings into your space. And technically none of that was a problem. By that time, I could already see all that kind of stuff. But anyway, so we had this event planned, which was down in the San Jose area, this fairly good sized event, and it was a psychic medium demonstration or something like that. So I went along as volunteering. So I thought I would be, typically we would have the main event, whatever that was, and might be people on the side that are kind of controlling the energy or watching the energy or taking a look at, you know, some straggler, somebody comes in the door that maybe has some problems and, you know, so you’re acting kind of as security as also and stuff like that and or you move the chairs around or check the mic. That’s what I thought I was doing. So then I’m up on stage, you know, before the events about to happen and I put the chair there and then John who’s running the thing asked me to sit down. I thought I was gonna do a mic test, that’s literally what I thought I was gonna do. And I didn’t realize that I was the main event that this was what’s gonna happen.

Rick: Sprang it on you.

David: So yeah, so, oh, I know Lewis put him up to it for sure so, you know, and there’s I don’t know two three hundred people there. And I, the only, I didn’t care for, you know. If I had known that this was going to take place, I would have chosen what being perhaps a little bit more carefully and I would have thought about it a little bit. It wouldn’t have frightened me, but I would have thought about it. Well, I didn’t have any chance, I didn’t do any of that. And so, I start moving up my energy and all that kind of stuff and fully capable of doing this. But, so basically I just brought this being in that. I hadn’t really vetted or checked out or anything like that. And they came into my space and, but the bizarre thing was, and for me what was really cool, because all of that is no big deal, but what was really cool is that I suddenly find myself popped out of the top of my head very clearly, full consciousness. But I pop out of the top of my head and I am sitting right here in my hair. I can feel my scalp, I can feel the hair, and then I see basically the audience is just balls of light. But in the rafter off to my left is this enormous being that looks like a walrus. Its head though is this huge head, very round head with a beautiful face, not a walrus face.

Rick: Must have been John Lennon.

David: And it had these huge, yeah, the walrus. It was these huge, yeah, it had these huge eyes. And I spent almost the entire time just looking at this being.

Rick: And what was it, some kind of astral being or something?

David: Well, it was you know, there’s… Yeah, you talked to Harry Alto. I mean..

Rick: He’s a guy that, yeah, he sees all that kind of stuff.

David: Yeah, so this is just a being I wasn’t looking at, you know, really its origin. What I was looking at actually was I, was going,, we were exchanging we were having a big exchange and I could see deeply into his being. And in his world, he was looking at, you know, in a sense, these crazy humans, except he didn’t think of us as crazy. And beings, by the way, human beings are not slouches. If you are a human being, you’re not considered a lowly being. And the idea of viewing your body as a meat sack is really not knowing what you’ve got. But anyway, so he’s not looking at us in any diminutive way at all, but what was interesting is that he was just absolutely in complete stillness and clarity, simply viewing us and viewing me. And there was just, it was just, he was just receiving it and not analyzing anything. I was just taking it in and it was just astounding, the stillness. His eyes were kind of a yellow-gold and it was just a beautiful experience. So while the reading is going on, I’m occasionally checking stuff out and feeling this being and these beings having some troubles and this or that. Because its energy was pretty low, actually. It wouldn’t be a being I would have brought in. I should just brought in one of my guides.

Rick: You mean the being you were channeling was low, not the walrus?

David: Yeah, no, no, the being inside me. Occasionally, I’d be aware of that, you know, and following along.

Rick: You’re talking, right? And you didn’t even know you were talking.

David: My voice is talking, yeah. I could hear what I was saying, if I was interested. I was not interested, really. But occasionally, I was doing healing work on the whole room, but from above my head, you can do 300-400 people in a second. There’s just nothing to it at all. So I was, so occasionally John would direct me on that level, but for the most part he was not doing that. And I, well anyway, that’s really the main bulk of it. You know the…

Rick: Yeah, but then there are some cautionary points you made about the fact that, you know, stuff can cling to you or even perhaps to the audience members who participate in such a thing and that needs to be cleared. And you also mentioned how channelers tend to live shorter lives because it breaks down mind-body coordination or something or weakens the nervous system in some way. So, I don’t know, I’m not down on channeling per se and I’ve interviewed a bunch of channelers. But I think it’s good to be well-informed about the fact that it could actually be problematic for a person’s evolution, personal evolution. As a friend of mine once said, just because you’re dead doesn’t mean you’re smart. So, you know, the information coming through isn’t necessarily better because it’s being channeled, but also, although it could be, there could be some profound stuff, but also there’s, it’s questionable in terms of the evolutionary value it might have, or the impact it might have on the channeler’s personal evolution. Would you agree with all that I just said, or would you want to contradict some of that?

David: Well, pretty much. It’s so fascinating as a psychic to watch a medium. By the way, I like Bishar, and I’ve found virtually everything he says is, particularly about frequencies, is right on the money. And his energy is obviously very nice. I have no negative, nothing but positive thoughts about him. But what’s interesting is that most of the people that are channeling are actually a lower being, not a higher being, though they may think, you know, it’s like 90% of them think it’s an angel. It’s not an angel. It’s usually a being that’s considerably lower than a human being. But that’s not to say that that’s very low because a human being is quite high. The higher self of a human being is not low. And so, but what happens is that they’re in the congestion of the body and they can’t think and they can’t access so much of what they have. And the Akashic records, all those things. So a being, they bring a being in, they raise their energy up. So a lot of professional mediums, we know many of them drink a lot of coffee, have a lot of sugar, have a lot of chocolate, things like that prior to elevate their energy. It’s not necessary to do any of that. You can elevate your energy without doing that, but a lot of them do that. And a lot of them have given up the controls to the beings. And you’ll actually hear them actively talk like that. They’ll say something like, you know, you ask them a question, they’ll say, “Well, you know, it depends on what the being is allowing me to do “blah, blah, blah.” And so that’s unfortunate. They haven’t set the ground rules. Second of all, many of the beings that are being channeled are lower beings, not necessarily, I don’t mean in a negative sense, just simply lower than a human. But what they do is they come into the body and they tap into the actual person’s Akashic records for their memories. And the way you can verify this if you’re watching it is if you know the person really well, the being is using their information because you know it’s their information. But they’re able to use it cleanly because they don’t have this, all this rigidified energy between that information and them, and so they can speak it easily. And so, many, many channels are, that’s a huge number of them. In almost no cases is somebody channeling an angel, their idea of an angel. There are so many spirits out there that are wonderful spirits that are not positioned like humans get positioned here. And so, a relatively simple being that is not considered nearly as high as a human being but in the state that they’re coming in at, they would appear to anybody else as very high simply because they’re unencumbered. And an unencumbered spirit doesn’t necessarily have to be pretty complex to say very, very amazing things that are extremely clear because they’re not burdened by all this tug-of-war going on with these inertias that they have in their space. So one of the problems, though, with people that are actively playing around with some of this stuff is it gets along with a line with a whole mess of stuff that’s actually kind of not right. Like an example, it’s very common for people to talk about clearing your chakra. What does clearing your chakra mean? You know, chakra is this extremely complex thing and then if it’s grown in a certain sense, it becomes unbelievably complex. Many, many, many, many abilities. Well, if you don’t know what you’re doing, really you’re supposed to be out there clearing stuff out? I mean, because there’s a really good chance that you’re clearing weed, you know, flowers out, that you’re just, I mean, there are too many teachings where there’s a doing going on, and the person that is doing is a rank beginner, and they have no idea what they’re talking about. But it sounds good. I’m gonna clean my chakras. Or as an example, you take a crystal, you take a crystal and you start doing crystal stuff on some of your chakras. You can do damage real fast because you’ve already got a lot of energy and now you’re concentrating a ton of energy into areas where you don’t know what you’re doing. But your main goal is to feel something. And you, oh my God, you should feel this crystal. Oh, this is really powerful. And it’s like, yeah, it’s totally powerful. And if you, you know, I used to, I remember going to the crystal show in San Francisco and half the people in the booths looked like they were on speed or that they had been doing speed, like way too much speed, and their synapses were fried. And it was because they were around all these crystals. And it was overloading their systems, and they looked literally physically, their energy, their auras, looked like they had been doing a lot of speed.

Rick: Wow, interesting.

David: It was sad to watch that. And they were very well-meaning, but yeah, wearing big crystals in certain areas and being around that a lot. But get back to it. So a lot of people, when they are trying to channel, they open their whole space up. I’ll open up all my chakras. That’s not a good thing to do. Opening up all your chakras willy-nilly is very similar to opening up all the doors in your house. You open up all the doors in your house, you leave them open, critters are gonna walk in. And people might walk in and rearrange the furniture and stuff. When you let a being into your space and you don’t set the ground rules down, where you say, “Okay, you can come into my space, But you don’t leave any hand grabs for you to come back in when I’m least suspecting it. You come in and you don’t touch anything. You just utilize what I allow you to utilize, and then you leave clean. I want all your energy gone. Take all your energy out. And any energy in your space, I want back in my space. And you set ground rules like this down. And it doesn’t matter. Here’s another way to put it. Let’s say it is an angel. Is an angel going to have an argument with anything I just said? No. The only person or the only being that would have an argument with anything would be a being that would be apt to do something like that that you don’t want done. So, it’s not going to limit your ability to bring in a wonderful being. It will limit beings that might take advantage of you because you’re laying down some groundwork. And maybe even if they try not to obey it, at least you’re also saying, “This is how I keep my house.” You know, you can have a party and most of your friends are good, and one isn’t so good. Well, you know, so you fix that and you don’t invite them again. Or you tell them, you know, “Hey, please don’t do that again.” But it doesn’t wreck you. So when you open yourself up to beings coming into your space, it’s so cool. You’re doing something. You’re feeling the being. “Oh my God, it’s coming in. It’s an angel. It’s always an angel. It made me feel so fantastic.” Reality is your energy has moved up to a level that makes you feel fantastic. And you can get to that level quite easily. That’s a little bit what I was alluding to before when I started having the waterworks. When you’re looking at a high being, your energy can move to that almost automatically. It just starts matching that energy and you may never have had that energy in your space. But you’re now experiencing that energy simply because you’ve imagined it to be so high. And in imagining it to be so high, you go there and then you start acclimating to these energies that are inconceivable. So, the opening all your chakras… Chakras are apertures that open and close according to need. A lot of the people that come back from war zones that have PTSD, it’s because some of their chakras are permanently open. The first chakra is stuck on “on” and so somebody comes up and taps them on the shoulder and they’re just freaked because they’ve been in, they’ve been in first chakra alert for 24 hours, seven days a week with bombs going off. And like if suddenly everything is silent, that scares the hell out of them because in it, according to their, you know, the battlefield situation when everything is quiet, that’s when things are not good. When suddenly there’s no one in town, that’s because the town knows “don’t be there.” And so, the idea of just willy-nilly opening up all your chakras, that opening all your chakras is 100% a good thing, it’s just not. On a hot day, you might wanna open up a door slightly to let some wind in, but on a freezing cold day, you don’t want that stuck open. And so, anyway.

Rick: Well, that is not the most logical of all points for us to end on, but it’s a valuable point. I mean, by logical, I mean, there’s, I could talk to you for another two hours. And there’s a bunch more stuff that we could talk about, but I’m afraid I’ve got to wrap it up. But I think we’ve given people a taste and you said you’re doing satsangs now? Are you doing online things that people can tune into?

David: Yeah, I typically do them once a week. I’m going through some stuff right now, So I will probably curtail them for at least a few weeks, or maybe less.

Rick: And they can go to your website to find out the details of those? Okay, good, cuz I think a lot of people will find that we’ll have the same opinion I do, which is you’re a fascinating guy with a lot of interesting things to talk about, and I might tune into some of your satsangs myself if I can. And so I think I’m learning things from you. I always like to spend my time on things that teach me something. And you’ve got a lot of interesting things we haven’t even talked about. I mean, the whole, you know, you wanted to talk about fasting, there’s the whole QiGong thing, but we just don’t have time in a single interview. So consider this audience to have, you know, been a kind of a buffet that you can’t eat everything in the whole buffet, but you sampled some things and you got a sense of David Doyle. And you know, go to his BatGap page, hop off to his website, and you know, check out what he has to offer, and I hope you keep offering it for a long time. It seems like you’re a valuable voice in this world, and I appreciate getting to know you better.

David: Well, thank you very much.

Rick: Thank you.

David: Can’t tell you how much I appreciate what you’re doing.

Rick: Yeah, well, I thank you so much. It’s a wonderful aspect of what I do is getting to meet people like you. Most of my best friends are people I’ve never actually met in person, but I’ve met them on through Batgap. Okay, so let’s see. There’s going to be a gap of a few weeks now, and then I’ll be interviewing Swami Medhananda, who is an associate of Swami Sarvapriyananda of the Vedanta Society, and then after that Brad Laughlin and Anna Breitenbach. Anna’s been on BatGap before. She’s an animal communicator, she and Brad. Brad is Leslie Temple Thurston’s husband, he lives in South Africa. Leslie’s been on BatGap, and I’ve started to sample what both of those people have to say, and it’s always fascinating. It’s like every person I interview is like opening a new Christmas present with surprise and delight, because everyone has so many interesting things to say. People are so fascinating. So thanks, David, and thanks to those who’ve been listening or watching, and we will see you for the next one. I’ll tell you a quick funny story. So there’s this guy, there’s a local TV station, and every morning he finishes the broadcast by saying, “See you tomorrow morning at 5.30.” And we just found that sort of delightful. But he stopped for a while, and I finally called the station and said, “What happened to that guy? Did you like, didn’t like him doing that?” And she said, “Oh no, he got married, he went on his honeymoon, he’ll be back.” I said, “Oh, okay.” So he came back and she had told him that I had called and said that I like that he does that. So now he really exaggerates it every morning and he has a big smile on his face and he laughs when he does it. Funny little story from the life of Rick Archer. Alright, thanks a lot everybody. We’ll see you for the next one. Bye now. Thanks, David. [Music] [MUSIC PLAYING] Thank you.