Visual Testimony of Life Eternal – Jurgen Ziewe – Transcript

Jurgen Ziewe Interview

Summary:

Full interview, edited for readability:

Jurgen: And this is a picture of an astral helper who is guiding out some person towards the light and this is quite representative of what I encountered. A very bleak environment where you find lost souls who don’t know how to get out of it. And then this chap on the left is an astral helper who is guiding him towards more, towards the light.

Rick: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of conversations with spiritually awakening people. We’ve done well over seven hundred of them now and if you like this one and you’ve never listened to any of the others, go to our website, batcap.com, and you’ll find them categorized in various ways. You can search for this, that, or the other type of topic. This program is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners and viewers. We don’t have any paywalls, and there’s no advertising on the audio podcast. And so just a couple of ads on the video, which you can skip. So we rely entirely on the support of appreciative listeners and viewers, and we’re registered as a nonprofit, if you’d like to help support it. Speaking of the audio podcast, today’s presentation is going to contain over one hundred slides or video images. And so you might want to watch this one if you’re accustomed to listening to them. Or you could still listen. But the slides are beautiful and interesting. So it’s a major part of our discussion. And the reason it contains so many slides is that my guest is Jurgen Ziewe [pron. SEE vah] Right?

Jurgen: Yeah.

Rick: Ziewe.

Jurgen: Ziewe.

Rick: OK. I’m a slow learner. And Jurgen is a very interesting guy. I interviewed him 9 or 10 years ago. And I’ve known that I was going to do another one of these days. He wrote a book recently, which I found really amazing. And I thought, OK, now is the time. And we’ll be talking about his book during this interview. In fact, the images that we’ll be showing are from the book. But essentially, he’s been an explorer of consciousness for over five decades with meditative practice and hundreds of documented out-of-body experiences, sometimes known as OBEs. This began in 1969 and took a radical turn during a spontaneous moment of absolute clarity and unexpected disassociation from his body that opened the door to multidimensional reality. And as I recall in your book, which I’ve just been finishing, at some point you encountered some celestial being, or something, who blessed you with this gift of out-of-body travel. Is that right? It was like a siddhi he blessed you with.

Introduction to Jurgen Ziewe

Jurgen: Yes. I mean, what happened at the first encounter, which was in ’75, where I… yeah, ’75, I met this Chinese master during an out-of-body experience. And simply because I had a number of out-of-body experiences, and they didn’t actually take me any further than the near-Earth levels, I felt a bit frustrated. And every time I tried to rise above it, I hit a ceiling, and I couldn’t get through it, and I became very frustrated. In the end, I sort of shouted out, you know, “Give me some help here. I can’t progress.” And then the interesting thing was, as I was descending to Earth, so to speak, from my elevated state, I ended up in a clearing in a forest, and there were four lanterns, four red lanterns, and I immediately knew there would be something happening of great importance. I was sort of mesmerized by the space between the lanterns, and sure enough, a Chinese chap appeared. He was lying very casually on his side, propped up by his elbow, and smirking.

“I met this Chinese master during an out-of-body experience. And simply because I had a number of out-of-body experiences, and they didn’t actually take me any further than the near-Earth levels, I felt a bit frustrated.”

Rick: Smirking, not smoking – smirking.

The Heart Chakra Awakening

Jurgen: Smirking, yeah. And I was immediately taken by surprise, and also I knew he was a really incredible guy, and quite naturally I sort of fell to my knees, got on my knees and sort of bowed before him, and he just kept grinning. And I recognized he was a Chinese master who I vaguely recognized as somebody I already know or have met at some time before. So he started a dialogue with me, which I documented in my book Multidimensional Man, and from that moment on, he started appearing to me at various times, and he gave me riddles and asked me various questions, and I was basically put through a test. But at one of these occasions, he suddenly started, without changing his position – that was the first time actually I saw him – without changing his position, and I was kneeling in front of him, he started massaging my chest with his foot. And I felt it was rather embarrassing, you know, if somebody came along. [Laughs] But what I noticed was I experienced a tremendous burning in my chest, and after the encounter had passed, I still had this experience for three weeks – a burning in my chest which was accompanied by a feeling of a kind of blissfulness. So later I reasoned that he must have awakened my heart chakra. The out-of-body experiences started after I had a profound experience early on of pure light, which happened spontaneously during breakfast, which I also documented in my book. But before I met him, I had numerous out-of-body experiences, you know, and did all sorts of things that you all documented. But he was a guy who actually triggered a much higher sort of experiences.

Rick: Yeah. I’m just moving things around on my screen here. I was thinking about the fact that you were blessed with this ability, as opposed to somebody like me, who wouldn’t have been able to do anything with it other than have some interesting experiences for myself. But you, being a talented artist, could actually communicate it to other people. And so I think that’s probably part of why you were chosen to have this.

Jurgen: Yeah, from when I was a child, I was a sort of addicted to drawing.

Rick: Right, you’re a natural born artist.

Jurgen: Yeah, I was constantly drawing, painting, and I always had a very visual imagination, if you like to call it. And that was something which I was very… felt very passionate about.

Rick: Yeah. Now, we’re going to be showing all these images during this interview. And I’m curious how you created them. I know you used AI. I’ve never seen anything created with AI that looks this good. But some of the stuff these days is pretty photorealistic. But did you actually create some kind of a painting or a drawing or something and upload that and then say, “Improve upon it”? Or did you just use words to describe what you wanted the AI to generate, and then it did that based upon your words?

Creating Visual Representations

Jurgen: Yeah, it started… My whole career was guided by the fact that I always wanted to illustrate my experiences because that was right from when I started using computer graphics and I had the first

Rick: A long time ago.

Jurgen: Yeah, it was really, really important to me to be able to create a photographic representation of my experiences. And before that, before the computer graphics became available, I did a lot of watercolors, because watercolors I felt are the best medium to translate some of the subtleties of these experiences – the color, the sublime sort of aspect of it, with just an outline of the sceneries, you know. But then when it became possible to create 3D illustrations on the computer, I just got carried away with it. My first pictures… I used the first 3D programs which were available then and did some very crude pictures. Before that, I tried to use airbrush to get a sense of realism to it.

Rick: I’m going to show a picture as you’re describing this. Keep talking.

The Gray Zone and Lower Astral Levels

Jurgen: Yeah, and before I came to VR or AI, I created two books for myself, which were computer generated, I don’t know whether you see it. So these were all years before I started doing this one here, Elysium. [Referring to image] So I was already very, very involved in trying to find representations of what came. I did this book before AI was even talked about, because I was very determined to actually find a medium to represent it. So I used game engines to create these illustrations. And when AI became available, I started experimenting with it almost as soon as it came out, ’22, but at that time it wasn’t really very good. Then the first time I really started to become serious about it was in ’23, early ’23, when I thought, okay, this is really good. I can actually read sections of my book and see what the AI can come up with. And so after a while, I did about – I don’t know – tens of thousands of pictures at least, and each time it improved and it got closer to what I wanted to represent. And also what happened, I started to train the AI to become good at interpreting my prompts. There are prompts. You have to write a narrative and then see how the narrative is translated into pictures. And so I became better and better at it, but also the AI started to learn and pick up on what I was all about. So I created two models for the AI: to represent certain aspects of the astral plane and other aspects of the higher dimensional planes, which are almost impossible to illustrate because there is no physical language, not even to be able to describe it adequately because we’re dealing with experiences which are inner experiences, which are on an emotional level and which cannot be translated easily into words or into pictures. So there were two models I created, but the astral model was fairly easy, like this one here, because the AI borrows images which have been programmed into it and all you do then is you embellish them, you know. So there were various aspects. When you have an out-of-body experience, there are various levels of the experience. So it was quite easy to express some of them which are very Earth-like, Earth-bound. And one of the more Earth-bound levels – they’re basically representations of our planet, but on the lower dimensional levels – they are sort of rather gray and don’t have a lot of color. There are hardly any cars, if at all. And what became apparent to me was there were loads of people, but very little else, and I soon gathered that what is happening here is people seem to be stuck, and whenever I got onto the astral levels like these here, I found there were masses of people, which in the end inspired me to write the book Vistas of Infinity because I realized people are just totally ignorant about what happens when they die. And the large majority of people when they die, they’re just positioned in these rather bland levels, which is a reflection of their imagination, their mind, their enterprise, and there are crowds of people who live there and don’t seem to be knowledgeable about what else is available for them. Of course everything that we see here on this level on Earth has got an equivalent on the astral plane. And that is what makes it so difficult for people who have out-of-body experiences to establish whether they had out-of-body experience or whether they are simply on another place on the physical Earth. And I very soon adopted a technique to test whether I was actually awake walking around in some part of the country, because it’s almost impossible to tell the difference. So I started using the floating technique to lift off Earth. But of course, as this picture here shows, when you get a little bit more evolved and more established, you can immediately tell that you’re on the astral plane, because things look quite different – especially on more evolved levels. You get everything we have here but at a higher quality, at a better quality. For example, I found the ornamentation and the detail of the buildings was so intriguing and so complex and the architecture was so different that I sometimes spent ages just looking at the detail. For example, there were columns which had layers rather than just a surface being sculpted, and so on. And I could have spent ages just studying the detail. And these pictures, these experiences immediately told me that I was arriving on a higher level, you know.

“You get everything we have here but at a higher quality, at a better quality. For example, I found the ornamentation and the detail of the buildings was so intriguing and so complex.”

Rick: I suppose that just as you had to figure out whether you were on an astral level or an earthly level, a lot of people who have died and gone to one of these astral levels might not even realize that they’re on an astral level. They might think they’re still on Earth, right?

Adapting to Astral Reality

Jurgen: Yeah, absolutely. And that’s what I found: -that people even may realize they have died or have been told they have died. They very quickly adapt to their new reality, almost as if they have woken up from a dream, and they just take it as fact, you know. The interesting thing is, when we arrive on these levels, it almost feels as if life has been a dream, because everything is incredibly real. It’s more real than what we experience here now. And then we quite easily accept the fact, Okay, maybe I’ve been dreaming, you know. And then of course, the whole thing unfolds for people. They start their new life there, and they get quickly accustomed to the new conditions which are there. For example, whereas on Earth, if you want a cup of tea, you put the kettle on, get the tea back out, put it in a cup, and so on, you do all this. When you are dead and you’re on the astral plane, you don’t have to do any of that. You just expect, if you want a cup of tea, that it’s right in your hand, and you don’t consider this to be anything unusual because our mind very quickly adapts to a totally new kind of reality, which you take for granted without even having to investigate why. Like people don’t investigate here, you know, where does the weather come from, why is the sun rising and so on. People just take life for granted. I found people on the astral plane, they have no problems accepting things which we find, from our perspective, quite out of the ordinary.

Rick: Seems like it could be a problem having any thought that pops into your head materialize. I mean, here on Earth, at least, if we could do that, I think a lot of us would get in trouble a lot of the time.

Jurgen: Yeah, it’s not quite so straightforward because we become creatures of habit, you know, and we quickly integrate things which are unusual and that has got quite a lot of psychological effects on us. So we change our behavior. For example, if we discover that when we have thoughts that we can’t keep to ourselves, we become a little bit more disciplined with our thoughts and our thinking. And I noticed it early on, on my astral travels, when I sort of felt critical about a person, what they looked like, they would look at me angrily, and I noticed I was found out, you know. So that’s the thing which shapes the social interaction of people and habits. But also they use it to their advantage – people, you know. They’ve got an enormous scope to express themselves and be happy and inventive. But of course, take a picture like this here. What of course becomes possible – people using their creativity in an incredibly powerful way. So you have architects who come together and create incredible cities and towns. And I went into one of these buildings here, and as I walked up the stairs, I noticed they didn’t need stairs, really, but they were there. But when I walked up the stairs, they changed color and made a musical note. So there was an extra attribute to the architecture which you wouldn’t think of normally, you know.

“People using their creativity in an incredibly powerful way. So you have architects who come together and create incredible cities and towns.”

Rick: Did they have to hire construction workers and stonemasons and use cranes and all that stuff or did the buildings just somehow materialize?

Jurgen: No, the thing is, people who are architects and who are builders, they naturally feel drawn to these communities where they are creative. And you just use your power of thought.

Rick: And the buildings materialize.

Jurgen: Yeah, they do designs, but they emerge, these designs, and they are refined. I mean, you can create a building like that within minutes of our time. And the way they appear… they appear as sort of an outline. But what happens – these buildings, once they’re established, people’s minds become used to it and they become solid.

Rick: So it becomes a more consensus reality.

Jurgen: Yes, then they have a consensus reality and the consensus can be incredibly strong. So you can have buildings which never change, you know. Like once this sort of thing is established, then you may get a group of architects together -or artists – and say okay, it would be good if you could change something like this. So it evolves, it becomes a living thing. But the way it’s constructed is quite unusual because they emerge in a way, you know, but they don’t happen necessarily instantly. If it’s a big construction, like a city, that’s what people keep working on. And I did a test early on when I published my book and my daughter became interested in what I was experiencing, to such an extent that she started having out-of-body experiences herself. And I was curious to test the permanence of what I found on the astral plane. So I asked her if she could try to change some of the details, some of the aspects in the consensus environment. And she went to work on a fountain, and she told me she had broken off an ornament, but as soon as she dropped it, it was reassembled. The consensus of the reality was stronger than the individual person’s will, if you like.

Rick: Okay. Let me make a comment, and then we will go on to the next section. And my comment is that most spiritual traditions in the world talk about this kind of thing and take it seriously and, you know, they differ from one to the other, but they all emphasize that there are other dimensions to life than the ones we commonly experience here on Earth. And even if some of you are studying Advaita Vedanta, for instance, you might say, “Oh, all this is just a Maya, it’s a mirage, it’s a fantasy, it doesn’t have any ultimate reality.” But Vedanta itself talks about the different lokas that exist. If you study Vedanta Sara, you read about that. And it doesn’t consider them to be the ultimate goal – we can talk about that later – and it advises getting enlightened and not just, you know, cycling through these subtler dimensions and coming back to Earth, although that’s considered to be legitimate if that’s your thing, but they all take it seriously. And presumably there have been people in these different cultures throughout the world who have had experiences like you have had, Juergen, which gave rise to these aspects of the spiritual traditions. Yeah, any thoughts about that before we go on to the next section?

Jurgen: Yeah, when I started off this meditation, I never even considered in my wildest dream that any of these out-of-body experiences or any psychic experiences were real or could be real, you know. I thought they were just sort of made up fantasies, and I never really paid any attention. It was only when I had the experience that I woke up to these things. But my first impulse was to meditate in order to do or experience what Vedanta was really all about, arriving at a cosmic consciousness state where you experience the origin of your very being, you know. And I later found out that what I experience and what I put down in my diaries were actually a teaching. It taught me about how to perceive reality, you know – that everything we experience in this life or any other dimension of life is underpinned by a unity consciousness which we cannot get away from. And I noticed that even if I went into a very dark region, which can be clearly described as hell, the underpinning aspect of unity consciousness was even there, you know, which sort of kept me safe and sane. So that thing never goes away, and I felt I cannot separate the two, you know, because when I’m here now, I’m in a kind of unity consciousness which just doesn’t go away. I perceive things, you know, which changes all the time, but the here and now aspect of reality is permanent, is sort of something I can constantly rely on simply by becoming aware of it. Appearances change but that doesn’t change.

Rick: Yep, the ocean has its waves but it remains the ocean and the waves are actually made of the same stuff. All right, I’m going to start sharing again and I’ll be flipping through about thirteen slides here and feel free to comment. I’ll just flip along, but if you want me to pause on any particular image, let me know.

Jurgen: These slides refer to a level of reality which is very close to Earth, but it’s sort of rather dull and gray, you know. This is an area where people who astral travel come into first. They’re not a high level, they’re just what we experience here, but because consciousness is not enlightened enough or penetrated by positive energy, we are our normal, dull, everyday people. But what interesting things happen here [referring to artwork shown], it’s more like a dream. You know, when we have dreams where we experience things like… I’m taking the example of a tram. I went through it on a tram which was about twice the width of a normal tram. And there were features which were more like a dream feature, like the houses sort of being suspended on one pillar or something stupid or dreamlike. You know, these sort of things happen. I don’t know why they happen, but it’s almost like a dream element which is created by people who are still alive, who fashion environments which come very much out of the subconscious aspect, which are materialized on the lower astral plane. So there is a mixture of what we experience in our daily life and we take into our dream world, and also people living there. There’s a mixture of these two realities. And I came across some really fantastic creations like buildings which I literally picked out of a dream, or transport. I came across a guy who had a homemade Mercedes he was driving. The only thing recognizable which was associated to a Mercedes was a star, but the rest was totally homemade and totally out of sync of what a real car would look like. Cars were a little bit of a rarity here, because you don’t actually need cars to travel. But you also cannot fly, because in order to fly here… people always say if you’re on the astral plane, you can just fly, you know. You can consider yourself to be at a different place and you can shift your awareness so you can transport yourself to a different place, but you are earthbound. In order to be able to fly, you have to adopt more elevated emotions, you know, more lighter emotions. And I asked people when I was here, why does nobody fly? And they said, oh, well, it’s too much effort. They have to elevate their feelings. But the vast majority of people, they just sort of plod along. They are habituated to walking and to a rather dull everyday activity, you know, so that never really occurs to them to elevate themselves to a higher state of consciousness.

Rick: What do you think about the fact that there are records throughout human history of people on earth levitating or flying – St. Joseph of Cupertino and St. Teresa of Avila and all kinds of Indian yogis and people from different traditions – but no contemporary examples can be found.

Jurgen: Yeah.

Rick: How does this relate to the astral? What would you say?

Jurgen: Well, I would say there is a state of consciousness which transcends all kinds of laws. I only can speak about my own experience, you know. But there are two ways I think you could consider these things. I thought that the people who were levitating, they may have just simply spoken about the weightlessness they experienced in their out-of-body experiences, and they tried to put it across in a way that they can actually levitate here. I don’t know, I’ve never seen anyone levitating, but I think it would be very difficult to achieve on the film.

Rick: Yeah. Although many people did witness people like St. Joseph of Cupertino and so on levitating.

Jurgen: Yeah, I can imagine, for example, if you are on a – which I have experienced… I’ve been on a very elevated, higher level, where I turned literally into light, you know, a very, very light body. And when I came down to a lower astral level, I was just floating around, and when I went down, people were sort of pointing at me as I was sailing through the air. And I wondered what they were pointing at, and when I got closer, I noticed wherever I passed by, everything was illuminated. My surrounding was illuminated, and I realized that the light came from my higher body, so it was like a luminous sphere. And it was an experience which the people on that astral level saw as a bit of an anomaly or like an event which was noteworthy. But I imagine that at that point, at least to the lower astral level I was on, I gave the appearance of being some sort of luminous being. And I think if you are powerful enough, you may be able to bring this luminosity down into the physical level and assimilate physical matter around it, or at least make it look like physical matter. I can imagine that is possible, but I haven’t experienced it.

Rick: Okay, we have one more section here that we’re going to go through. This is called the gray zone, but I think I’ll go through this fairly quickly because we’ve already talked about a lot of gray zone stuff, unless there’s something more you want to cut. So we’re getting into lower astral now by talking about the gray zone?

Jurgen: Yes, the gray zone is a very low level where there’s hardly any positive energy. People are very dull, they’re very negative, they’re totally preoccupied with their own concerns, and the negativity expresses itself in monstrous thought forms, you know, like suddenly you see a massive stone building, and the people you see like on this one [refers to image], they don’t look as attractive. They look rather worn out and rather decrepit in a way because they have no positive energy or very little positive energy. And their life is quite dull. I also notice the food is very dull, the food doesn’t taste as good as on a high astral level. Wine – if you think there’s wine it would taste like water, you know. And then people huddle around anything that gives some sort of light. They create – out of their feelings or their wishes to warm themselves or to get out of their situation – they create some light and that usually materializes in a kind of bonfire. And I described in one of the experiences in my book how these sort of things happen and how they come about. But generally the buildings are pretty bleak and dull. You don’t find many signs of life. Even trees are without leaves, and people wander around like lost souls. They are in a kind of state of depression, really, and that is something they try to get away from. The towns, even if it’s sort of getting slightly better, it’s still dull. It’s like a gray November day, and some of the buildings are simply thought forms, created by people’s despondency. They were sort of signposts of the level they were on. So these levels unfortunately are quite common for people who are – sometimes even people who are astral travelers – they find themselves on these levels and they can’t go much further. And a friend of mine, he has written a book, and he actually made it his job to rescue these people on these levels. And the way he does it is he finds some susceptible soul and then he talks to them. He approaches them and then he gets an idea or a feeling of what they are about and then he looks out for any kind of light, and it can just be a candle. And then he focuses on the light, he guides the person to the light ,and as he does so, as they get closer, the light becomes brighter. And that is a really interesting phenomenon because when the person gets closer to the light, there is the help of the astral helper, my friend, and his heart rate sort of increases, becomes more joyful or more susceptible to higher vibrations, and then the light also becomes brighter. And then at this point, when they reach the light, they usually find some astral entity from a higher state who takes the person on and takes them to a higher dimension.

Rick: I interviewed a guy a few years ago named Father Nathan Castle. He’s a Catholic priest, and he stumbled upon this ability himself quite – well, so-called – “accidentally” of helping stuck souls cross over, which is what he calls it. And he’s kind of made it his career these days to help these people who are stuck maybe for a long time in very dark places like we’re showing here. And he somehow gets to where they are and helps them. And then inevitably someone comes to meet them when the person is ready to go. Someone from a higher level comes like an emissary or a, you know, intermediary and they take the person out of the dark place to a better place.

Jurgen: Yeah, a few friends of mine who are astral travelers who I’ve spoken to, they find that it’s a sort of quite a common job they do.

Rick: Yeah. Okay, so now for the next few minutes we’re going to be getting to some even darker stuff but don’t worry, it gets better. So here we go. So this section would be called sub-levels and I’ll flip through the slides while you elaborate.

Jurgen: Yeah, this is a level below what we’ve just seen, where there is a real poverty or a spiritual poverty of the people, and the poverty of soul or mind expresses itself in the environment. You get into these kind of levels which are like shanty towns – very poor, you know, very bleak, devoid of any life. And there are people who linger around, who interact, but they are not very happy souls. And these towns, they are just an expression of a state of consciousness most of them find themselves in. And the other thing I found is caves instead of houses. They haven’t even got the energy to make, create anything, so they are gather in dark caves, and that is their habitat. Some people I found live in holes in the ground, and they’re very sad- looking individuals. These are some of the people [refers to image], what they look like on these levels. They look rather sinister and dark, and very often they are very negative, very often quite aggressive and resentful, you know, and their communities are made up of these people, of negative people, and that becomes their world. And they carry on with their corrupted emotions. They gang together, they gang up against each other, and they greet people with hostility. I always preferred to remain invisible when I got into these regions.

Rick: Did you have a choice to remain invisible or not?

Jurgen: Yes, I learned that I could become invisible. And the thing was, I also was still connected to my unity consciousness, so there was no chance that I could be harmed or that I could be in any way compromised by these sinister characters. Even if I became visible, they would probably not have any chance to do me any harm. So, it was really quite sad. You couldn’t really do much with these people because they didn’t have an inclination to come out of their state. They didn’t know how to and they were so trapped in their negativity and their resentfulness and their darkness that they felt that is their reality and they will be here forever. The more lucky ones managed to cobble together some sort of habitat which wasn’t even big enough to stretch out in. But everything was poor, and they would even fight for rubbish they gathered, and there was really no value in any of the things they had. It was really quite depressing.

Rick: Okay. Darker still. Now we’re going to go into the evil zone.

The Evil Zone and Karmic Consequences

Jurgen: Yes, this is a picture of one of the most traumatic experiences I had of the really dark levels and this was actually a torture chamber I came across. And when I got into it, I could experience all the things that happened in there and it was so traumatic because, you have to remember, you are fully aware. It’s not a dream. You are in full waking consciousness. And when you get into these remnants on the lower astral plane of the horror which human beings are up to and they create, then this becomes so real. And this is a picture I created after I had this experience coming across this torture chamber, which actually traumatized me. It traumatized me so much that for weeks I couldn’t get it out of my mind, because it was almost as if I had actually encountered it physically. But on the astral level, everything has got an extra dimension of reality, and all the pain, the cruelty and the evil was a present manifestation, and this picture sort of represents it. I went to these places because I felt I needed to. This one I stumbled across by accident after I went through these dark regions on my mission to discover what human nature is capable of and what the results of their corruptions are. So I went right from the beginning. I was attracted to these places. Sometimes I came across caves. And then, of course, you have these scenes where people are living out their karma. And this is a really interesting experience because people who have been so corrupted that they created a lot of evil – I mean we only have to think about places like Auschwitz or, you know, like at the moment in Gaza – the things people create, they have got such incredible repercussions that they cannot escape the consequences. And this is what happens because we are not dealing with people being punished, you know, we are dealing with energies they release. And for each person, each individual person who is affected by these negative, evil energies, the energy is sort of reflected back because consciousness is like a mirror. Nothing gets lost. Everything is sort of recreated and reflected back to the originator of this calamity or this destruction they have created. And there’s literally no way they can escape from it, there’s no way. They have to experience this suffering they created for each individual human being, and I know that because I encountered this – I saw these people who are sort of confronted with their karma. In my book Whistles of Infinity I described two terrorist attacks. One was a suicide bomber who was trapped in a pile of human bodies and severed limbs, which were sword forms, and he tried to escape. And the problem was every time he felt he had done a good thing and he tried to pray to Allah or God, all he received was the reality of what he created. And he found himself in an inescapable thing which he couldn’t reverse, which he couldn’t undo.

“They have to experience this suffering they created for each individual human being, and I know that because I encountered this – I saw these people who are sort of confronted with their karma.”

Rick: He didn’t get the seventy-two versions, huh? [Laughter]

Jurgen: I describe in Vistas of Infinity in more detail how these things happen. But each –

Rick: Incidentally, we’re going to get to heaven pretty soon, so don’t worry about this dark stuff. It’s going to get better. Okay.

Jurgen: Yeah, I mean, this is the thing which I felt I needed to address, you know, so people realize they cannot get away with their thing, because what they’re creating is energy, and the energy is revisiting them and there’s no getting away from it, as much as they wish they hadn’t done it. So there are all these people at the moment still alive who create absolute disasters for mankind.

Rick: Yeah. I mean, a lot of the things you’re describing could be on earth, you know – the torture chambers and all this stuff.

Jurgen: Yes, that’s right. There are sort of remnants of it. They leave a mark on the astral plane, a very powerful mark. And the places they live… When they do get over and have to confront their deeds, then they have created these thought forms as well. These are, for example, people who harbor really evil thoughts and negative thoughts – the sort of people who are trafficking human beings and all kinds of things. They’re creating a thought world which becomes very real, like demons, and [when] they pray these thoughts feedback on them and they interact with them, you know. They cannot seem to be able to escape them, and they’re like in a vicious circle. They can’t get out of it. And so you get this sort of demonic representation [referring to image] of their deeds they’ve unleashed on their fellow human beings. And there’s a whole territory and a whole society, a structure of society, where people live in these communities, where they literally tear themselves apart. It’s quite incredible. These are typically the kind of characters, [referring to image] – how they manifest. Being so corrupted and so decrepit that it’s almost impossible to express. And again, this is a karmic situation somebody has to live through who has created incredible hardship on this planet. I sometimes wish people should look at these things, you know, when they, for example, go into Gaza and murder a group of health workers or aid workers. I wish they would see these things because they won’t be able to escape what they’re creating.

Rick: Yeah, that’s why we’re doing this interview. So this [image] challenges this category.

Jurgen: Yeah, this is really quite interesting. During my out-of-body experiences, I also visit people who are still alive and who have problems. And this was an image I came across, a scene I came across of a decrepit house. Whereas on Earth, the house probably looks really in a very posh area, you know, but on the astral plane, the house reflects the state of their marriage. And when I went into this house, I don’t know whether you find this picture of a woman drowning in her kitchen.

Rick: I think that might be– there she is [referring to image]. Yeah.

Jurgen: Because when I went into this house, I found this scene of a woman who was sort of sinking into the kitchen floor, you know, and not really confronting what was actually happening. And that was the expression, her life reflected on the astral plane. She was literally drowning in the misery of her very unhappy marriage. So I then try to –

Rick: Comfort?

Jurgen: Comfort her, yeah. I try to comfort her and try to explain to her that her best way is to go through with the divorce, to get out of it. And of course, a very positive effect.

Rick: Now, you were doing that on the astral with this woman? Or –

Jurgen: Yeah. Yeah, on the astral plane.

Rick: So she didn’t know you were there, but she might have had that thought in her mind, like maybe I should go through with the divorce?

Jurgen: Yeah, so I actually went to a great length to comfort her and to explain to her what was happening in her life and that her best way out of it would be a divorce because another part of this experience was [that] her husband drove a Range Rover through the wall of the house and had done his best to demolish it completely.

Rick: Wow.

Jurgen: You know. So that was a very powerful experience, and I hope I instilled in her a positive way of action of getting out of this.

Rick: Yeah.

Jurgen: So yeah, this is another thing. [Referring to image] This is more like a symbolic image which I tried to create in order to illustrate that very, very often people, when they die, don’t know where to go. And wherever they go they find themselves in a maze where they don’t see any way out. And that is exactly the state of mind a lot of people find themselves in in this lifetime, you know, where they’re confronted with problems, with challenges, and they don’t have a positive way of dealing with it. And when they arrive on the astral plane, there are literally mazes like that, you know. But even on a slightly higher level on the astral plane, they still find themselves in labyrinths [referring to image]. And okay, there’s a lot of entertainment and lots of distractions and comfort with other people, but they’re still finding themselves in a maze of their own creation where they don’t see any goal, you know.

Rick: Kind of like Earth again.

Astral Guidance and Lost Souls

Jurgen: Yeah, it’s just like Earth. And you know, there are balloons. In this picture, I created these balloons which are sort of hopes, you know, people try to pin themselves onto, but they’re literally made out of air. And they’re still grappling around with the Earth-like experience. And when they arrive on the astral plane, they may simply – this is meant to be more a metaphor, you know – but they may find themselves again in the same situation which is represented slightly differently, where they’re looking for entertainment, looking for distraction, looking for a way out, but never really find it. And this is a picture of an astral helper who is guiding out some person towards the light and this is quite representative of what I encountered. A very bleak environment where you find lost souls who don’t know how to get out of it, and then this chap on the left is an astral helper who is guiding him towards the light.

Rick: Nice.

Jurgen: Yeah. Now this is another thing which I encountered. A person who was so ravished by self-hatred, or resentment, -hate, that he literally was eaten up by maggots, which ravished his body. And he couldn’t get out of this state of mind until he was totally eaten up, and then he reassembled himself, and eventually there came a breakthrough where he sort of got hold of himself. Some hells are very temporary hells. You know, they’re like here. When we’re here, we’re going through a bad time, but on the astral plane, they’re much more realistic. They’re much more tangible. The states of mind we go through on the astral plane, they express themselves quite literally. Yeah, this is another scene which is quite interesting. They’re drowning in self-sorrow and self-pity, and they’re people -they actually live in groups – they come together in groups where they pity themselves. And so they’re sinking into this morass of self-pity and resentment and not finding any fault with themselves, but blaming everything around them for their fate. But of course they only have to look at themselves, but they’re not in this place. They’re still trapped in their negativity, and the sad thing is there’s so much of this happening. And I don’t know, I don’t have an answer. I think what really needs to happen… We need to be educated psychologically to deal with our anxieties, our fears, our lack of self, you know, and this is an educational problem more than anything.

Rick: Yeah. So now we’re on emotions.

Emotions and Scenic Equivalents

Jurgen: Yes, that’s another experience I found really interesting. I found that emotions create or transport you into an equivalent, into a scenic equivalent. For example, let’s say this emotion is like a quiet melancholy. And this quiet melancholy, which is not necessarily anything negative, but is a state of reflection which creates or transports you into an environment which completely expresses your emotion, and you don’t know whether the environment created the emotion or you created the environment. But what becomes apparent on the astral plane is you find emotions which you cannot have on the physical level. The physical body is not designed to have emotions which you can have on the astral plane. And that’s really interesting because there is a much greater spectrum of emotional life you can have on the astral plane, which can be very pleasant and very beautiful as well, and very interesting. And there’s one painter I found on Earth, his name is Mark Roscoe – I don’t know whether you know him – he’s created these big paintings, color fields. There’s a room dedicated to Roscoe in the Tate Modern in London, and it’s like a chapel. And when you go into this room, it evokes emotions which are simply emotions which are only available on the astral plane. And that’s why I think he’s such a great painter. When you see people coming out of the Roscoe Room in the Tate Modern, they all have completely new expressions on their faces. So anyone who goes to London, I recommend to go to the room, because these emotions, they have no equivalent here on Earth.

Rick: Okay, now we’re going to get into a section called Living in Astral Cities.

Living in Astral Cities

Jurgen: Yes, so now we are progressing into the sort of more normal astral levels, which I would say the vast majority of human beings who have a decent, adjusted life, will find themselves in, normal places which are rather nice and attractive, and the quality of life increases substantially. Also their physical appearance… I could tell by the physical appearance of people on which astral level I was in. But on these astral levels, people usually revert back to the prime of their lives, usually in their younger state. The environments are very beautiful, the cities are very rich, the social life is abundant, nature and everything is a rather tranquil, beautiful, a sedate life that people lead and [find] enjoyable. The people gather together, have parties, the social life is fantastic. They don’t have the hardship of having to earn a living, they don’t have to struggle, they get used to the fact that their wish is their command. They can actually materialize things they want for their own comfort. The habitations are incredibly beautiful and rich. Many people who get to these levels really believe they’ve arrived in heaven. It’s like the ultimate lottery win. And you know, everything they dream, have dreamt of – the earthly pleasures – they actually are available to them here. The interesting thing is we still have earthly things, cafes, shopping centers, all the things we are used to: restaurants, parties, all kinds of things. It’s just the quality of life is really enhanced and really beautiful. And the people also, they’re easy to talk to and communicate with, and they’re usually very positive and outward-going and happy.

Rick: Do you sometimes talk to them, and do they know that you’re an astral traveler, or do they think that you’re one of them on their astral level?

Jurgen: Yes, I talk to them. Very often I use individual people as gateways into finding out more about the astral plane, because what happens when you talk to a person is you don’t just talk to them telepathically, but if they describe something, you can actually live inside their description. So I can find out quickly. An example I always give is one when I talked to a lorry driver, he was a lorry driver on earth and as he was telling me about it I was sitting next to him in this lorry and experienced what his life was like. So I use these connections to people to get to know about the astral plane. Some people invited me into their houses, and it was really incredible. I was invited to parties, invited to –

Rick: But did they think you’re just – did they realize that you’re an astral traveler from Earth?

Jurgen: Yes, they can see it. They’re quite excited about it.

Rick: So you’re kind of like the life of the party. So, whoa, look what we have here.

Jurgen: It’s quite interesting, because some people sort of pointed at me, you know, from a distance. And I had a bit of fun with it, because one person, two women I met, they said, “Oh, look, you are not from here, then. You’re an astral traveler.” And I said, “Yes, how do you know?” They said, “Yeah, you’ve got this string hanging out of your stomach.” [Laughter]

“Yes, how do you know?” They said, “Yeah, you’ve got this string hanging out of your stomach.”

Rick: Now, do many, firstly, do they say that many astral travelers come to visit them, or were you a real novelty? And secondly, have you ever encountered another astral traveler when you’re on your journeys, another person from Earth doing what you’re doing?

Jurgen: Yes, I have. I have, and it’s really quite interesting. We sort of exchange notes and talk to each other. It’s absolutely fascinating. And unfortunately, I tried to get the addresses and tried to find something to write it down, and inevitably I forget it. But I noticed people in the astral travel community, they have actually made contact with fellow astral travelers on this level, you know. So we’re just getting into areas of astral towns which I have visited which are completely out of the ordinary, completely new designs and beautifully laid out and thought of. And it’s a real pleasure to visit these places and walk around. And when you meet people here, they are of a completely different caliber – creative, animated. This is, for example, a village [referring to image]. And villages are beautiful, you know, when they’re there, because the people who feel drawn to these places, they not only want this quietness, a peace, the stillness, but they also want the nature. And what happens is that nature responds to them in a very, very beautiful way. It is almost as if nature welcomes them and it sort of encroaches on them and it makes it more beautiful for them to live there. People of course create their own communities in these areas where there’s a beautiful countryside. They come together and the houses are just like on earth – there’s a style of architecture which people don’t deviate from because they’re of the similar mindset. And the atmosphere is… You can tell by the houses – when you go past these houses – what the person is like who lives in it, because the house, the architecture is an extension. What I found really interesting is getting to pass these houses and know exactly everything about the person who lives in it. You know, it’s like an extension of their aura, and it’s quite beautiful. Some houses actually have an aura. They have got a shimmering glow around them. It’s quite fascinating.

Rick: Little bit like Earth in a way. You can tell a lot about people by the houses, but not quite to the same extent, obviously. OK, now we’re going to get into some entertainment. That’s the topic of our next section.

Entertainment and Festivities

Jurgen: Yeah, this is a big thing. Festivities. People really let loose. They have got the most amazing parties. And I have been party to some of these entertainment things. Something I find almost impossible to depict. For example, there was a woman who created a massive choreography of dancers. But they were not just a group of – I tried to depict it here – were not just a group of a dozen or two dozen dancers, there were hundreds. And the way she choreographed them was with her thought. They created a connection, a thought connection with the dancers, and they responded in unison as if she were creating a painting, a living painting out of human beings. And of course there was a joy element in it, which carried the choreography, you know, and the joy of the people participating. And of course you can find it here on earth as well, you know. What irritated me [was] when people say – sometimes mediums or people who have no personal experience say – “Oh, yes, you cannot eat on the astral plane because you don’t have any organs to digest it,” and things like that. So their picture is that on the astral plane we are sort of ghost-like creatures which are semi-transparent, and there’s no way we can eat or drink because we haven’t got a body. And that is the sort of thing which I have totally disputed by my own experience of what I encountered. For example, I went to several parties which my mother, who died in 1995, had organized with her friends from my childhood. And it was an incredible, beautiful, festive organization with food in abundance, and the atmosphere was absolutely tremendous. And of course the festivities… I mean they have got hotels, which I describe as ten star hotels. There is no equivalent here on earth. And the foods… I came across a woman with a sweet stand, and she invited me to try some of her sweets she created. And they tasted absolutely delicious. And she was very pleased about what I thought about that. And I soon discovered what people create is they create it with their love, you know. And the food tastes… it’s basically they are packets of energy. What they’re creating is packets of energy. This [referring to image] is a sort of representation of one of the shows I’ve seen where the choreographer directed the people who were basically weightless and dancing, not just on the ground, but they were literally floating in the air. And one of the choreographies I mentioned earlier was a massive amount of people who were floating through this incredible space, and the audience, of course, participating and enjoying the incredible entertainment value of what they’ve witnessed.

Rick: One thought that comes to mind, I just want to throw in here, is that – and you know this and you’ve probably said it, but we can discuss it a little – is that the more subtle levels are more a field of all possibilities, and the more gross levels are more fixed and calcified and set and not malleable. And that’s understood even in physics, you know, that at a quantum level, all kinds of things are possible. And then the more the symmetries break and you get into the more concrete levels, the more rigid things are. So, you know, these people are living in a field of all possibilities.

Jurgen: Yeah, that’s right. And that’s why some people consider themselves to be in heaven, you know, because the joy aspect is a very important aspect and element of people expressing themselves and self-realizing themselves. And joy, of course, comes from an experience of unity originally.

Rick: And yeah, and there’s this guy [referring to image].

Jurgen: This is an interesting representation of an astral experience I had. I walked through a cartoon town, and at first I thought there were people like drawings walking around with me in this town, and I thought, “Oh, I’m just dreaming. I’m just having a lucid dream.” And as I was walking around, all sorts of things started happening. Characters, drawn characters, were walking around with me, until I saw two guys with a PlayStation controller operating these characters, and they were killing themselves laughing at my confusion.

Rick: So some gamers died and went to gamer heaven. [Laughter]

Jurgen: They went to gamer heaven and that was a realization which they then elaborated on and explained to me – what they previously did perhaps in their previous life. I didn’t go into any detail, but if you are a game designer, you can create a virtual reality which is incredible.

Rick: That’s funny.

Jurgen: So I found there are unlimited possibilities. When you look at people who are interested in games, the games become really three-dimensional now, especially this virtual reality. And I’ve used virtual reality myself to get people a kind of feeling of what it is like to walk around on the lower, or mainly the lower, astral travel, where they can actually walk around, or I gave them an experience of the higher levels or even the spiritual levels which I try to represent in virtual reality. So if people go to my website and they have a virtual reality headset, they can actually download this experience for free and try it out. One of my fascinations I had when I was on the astral plane was the sea. I lived near the sea, and whenever there is a storm, the first thing I do is I go to the seafront and allow myself to be blown over by the weather, and I’m fascinated by this natural show which nature presents. But in my astral travels, I actually go into the waves. I allow myself to be carried by the waves. And there are literally people who create these waves, who make the sea turn up and create incredible shows. I call them weather shows. They get together and create massive tsunami waves and things, but they don’t do any harm. They just sort of… You know how fascinating it is, people going to the sea, watching the sea or waterfalls. And there are groups of people who go out of their way to create these incredible shows for entertainment only. And this is another picture in terms of entertainment. This was an experience. I had several of these experiences, where you go to an adventure park, like Disney World, but Disney World pales into insignificance when you go into these parks because they have attractions which are literally out of this world. And they seem to be without an end. They seem to be incredibly vast. I’ve been to one not so long ago, and I was just simply getting lost, and it was always getting better. It was getting more interesting. And then when I thought, “Oh, it can’t get any better,” there was an underground aspect to it, which was even more weird and more fascinating, where people could experience things which are just impossible to imagine. This is the sort of thing which you can encounter there, which will blow people, you know, aside. And of course safaris, you can go on safaris, meet tigers, talk to them. You can communicate with the animals, another aspect which I found really, really interesting, communicating with cats. In my case I communicated with birds, and there’s wisdom they impart, animals. I’ve got a much greater respect now for animals, especially when I look at my own cat. I know there’s an incredible intelligence which only has got a limited vocabulary, but I can feel it, I can tune into it. And on the astral plane, this communication becomes actually as if you can enter into the animal’s being, you know, can feel like the animal. You can understand it, and they can communicate with you. And I think on this level, there are people who are very talented in communicating with animals.

Rick: Yeah. I’ve interviewed some. They’re amazing.

Jurgen: Yes, I mean, we come to a point here where it’s almost impossible to describe or depict things which we can encounter here. You know, when people describe their roads as paved with silver or something like that, [or] marble which is so white that you cannot find it anywhere on earth. These are experiences where people create things, habitats where they gather together, you know, where they have concerts, incredible parks, the landscape, lush and beautiful flowers you haven’t seen anywhere before, you can’t even imagine. These are literally paradisical sceneries, which are so… It’s not just the scenery is beautiful, but it’s the atmosphere, which is so full of life and so vibrant and so full of presence. You can feel there’s a divine intelligence embedded in everything you walk on. The ground you walk on is almost like luminous. You’re in literally like a celestial… The feeling is completely different to what you get in nature on Earth, because you communicate [with] this nature. You no longer are that separated from it. It’s like it becomes part of you. You connect with it on a very intimate level to nature. And you see things which have got completely different feelings which you are not used to, a kind of beauty which is on a different order, which you would normally not even imagine. The people living here [have] created a little paradise for themselves. Yeah, it’s not much really you can say. And of course, I don’t know where this comes from [referring to image], but I think this is the sort of thing… Are we in the Meditation [section]?

Rick: We’re in the Higher Astral [section]. This one was in that collection. Maybe it wasn’t supposed to be.

Jurgen: Yes. Oh yeah, this is basically what happens – thoughts become things. Thoughts become animated. Instead of just experiencing consensus reality, you can actually project your thoughts into the landscape and they become living environments. Here, for example, somebody would have projected a thought of a beautiful – let’s say a religious – thought, a deep devotional thought, thinking perhaps of a religious experience or something, and that would project itself out and manifest in this landscape like a thought church or thought cathedral. And then of course, astral worlds, which have no representation on Earth, which are not earthly dimensions, they are simply other planets, astral planets of a different world. And I went to one, quite a few of these places. There’s so much to report about it. One earlier one was when I went on to Venus. Venus is an inhospitable planet completely devoid of life and very hot and things, but it has got an astral counterpart, which is highly civilized and is occupied by people creating a completely unique culture. And I identified it as the astral equivalent of Venus.

Rick: And now we’re going to the Metamorphosis section.

Jurgen: Yes, that’s one of my experiences [referring to image]. I found people having carnival processions. You know, festivities abound there. And the first one I found was where I encountered carnival processions where the people, instead of dressing up, they morphed into half animals. And not just into half animals, but all kinds of shapes. Some people were just abstract sculptures which were walking or floating along, and there were people which had transformed or morphed into some manifestations of their thoughts. I mean this one is particularly interesting. You can see it’s not a mask. This person has actually adopted a half animal shape. You know, you wouldn’t be able to create it, maybe modern Hollywood would, but you wouldn’t create a mask like that which was simply a half human, half animal entity, you know. And yeah, I mean these are all pictures which I’ve taken from my own experience. I tried to represent them as closely as I could, and also they radiated something of the people’s character, of what they were all about. There were literal representations of their inner subconscious aspects, which was absolutely fascinating. And also manifested were their dreams, their fears, everything. And it was expressed just like we do it on Earth, when we have these big Rio Carnival processions where people dress up in all kinds of costumes, but here they are not costumes. They are morphing, people morphing into things. And I had encounters with people for fun. There was a woman who circled above me as a dragon. She was a dragon, and I recognized her. And a very colorful dragon. She circled above me and then she landed in front of me and then she morphed back into a very beautiful woman. Funnily enough, the costume she was wearing was the same colors as the dragon she was in just before. And then she took me on a walk through the town and I documented part of it in one of my books, and it was a fascinating experience seeing people doing things.

Rick: Pretty cool. Okay, here’s the next one. Now this is, this section is Nature.

Jurgen: Yes, of course. Nature is something completely different. First of all, plants are different, can be different. They can be much bigger than what we have on Earth. I came across forests of flowers, which are taller than a tree, you know. And again, the atmosphere and the light, which, you know, invigorates nature. It’s just, yeah, it’s out of this world, really. I mean, the beauty is incredible. This is a scenery which I’ve been working on for ages before I even had AI. I tried to represent a scenery through nature which had these fantastic flowers and the trees. And the trees are just as natural as they are here on Earth. You could argue they shouldn’t be, because there’s no wind, there’s no weather like we have here, but it’s still nature in a way which just is nature in its most profound way. Yeah, it’s not much really you can say.

Rick: I’ll just flip through them, they’re beautiful. So there’s no wind? How about rain, snow, things like that?

Jurgen: So wind, weather, for example… If it snows, which I have experienced, it’s almost like little blessings falling down from heaven, you know, and if the snow touches your skin, you feel sort of invigorated. It’s quite different. There’s a different aspect to it. So if you go back to the previous slide–

Rick: Oops, sorry. Let me go back to that. They have ski areas in these astral realms?

Jurgen: Yes. [Laughs]

Rick: How about pickleball? They have pickleball? You may not know about pickleball.

Jurgen: No, I don’t know.

Rick: It’s a game.

Jurgen: Yeah, I’ve come across where people played games. One scenery was where I was hit by a ball.

Rick: Is this the one you wanted me to go back to? Yeah, this is the one. For example, I came across flowers which were basically made out of light and crystals. They were like fractals manifested into flowers, glowing, you know, and light rising up their stems and things like that. That really fascinated me, seeing nature actually being vividly alive and animated by light, you know, and the energy of consciousness, of pure consciousness.

Rick: Now we have a section called Evolved Humans.

Jurgen: Yes, this is interesting. The first time I came across people on a more spiritual level, higher evolved level, the first thing you notice is they are incredibly attractive and radiating light. And it’s not just light they’re radiating, they’re radiating kindness and love, and this makes them incredibly attractive. The first time I came across a creature like this, I can’t find any other word, I went into a house which was an incredibly beautiful house. I couldn’t resist not going into it and going up the stairs, the carpets, blue carpets, incredibly beautiful wallpaper, rich pattern. And then I came across an open door, and there was an incredibly beautiful woman sitting in front of a mirror, combing her hair. And I immediately jolted because I thought I sort of intruded in a private space of this person, and she sort of turned around and said, “No, no, no, no, you’re okay.” And she smiled at me as she was doing, she gave me an incredible laugh [that] she sent towards me, but it was not… It was a laugh which came from a completely beautiful place, a kind of laugh which people should really take for granted when they communicate on this level, you know, has a kind of closeness to it.

Rick: Speaking of love, people might be wondering about relationships on this, these higher levels.

Love and Unity Consciousness

Jurgen: You know, the proverb, marriage is made in heaven, right? This is a sort of representation I found [referring to image] – two souls coming together, two individuals coming together, falling in love, and then uniting in unity consciousness. The uniting of two people is of such intense power that they literally no longer can tear themselves apart because they enter a state of unity consciousness. And this is where true love happens, you know, love which you can only experience in a state of ecstasy and unity consciousness. And of course these people who come together like that, they literally are in heaven then, you know. So love on this level has got the highest expression and the highest realization human beings are capable of. And when this happens here, very often if there’s real intense connection. People, us, your body, will literally be catapulted into these higher levels of consciousness and properly experience true unity consciousness. And that’s really something. I just wanted to show the beauty. I noticed when I came to these levels, what an incredible, beautiful species humans are, you know, and the potential and the way we are designed. We are really a divine species. My experience was, when I communicated with these people, they were like angels. They had this beauty, this goodness, this incredible compassion and radiance of love, which just rendered them into kind of angels. And I think when people talk about angels, that’s what they probably talk about – evolved human beings who’ve transcended the ego state of their humanness and spiritualized their consciousness and have become complete, and getting close to their godliness, you know. And I found this, it doesn’t matter what species we are talking about, you know, it’s just human at their most evolved state.

Rick: Now there’s a section on Past Lives here.

Jurgen: Yes, I had various experiences of… This is my interpretation of how you can enter into the Akashic Records, into past lives. This is just an artistic representation where you can pick out a character and enter into the era of that character or into the world of it, you know. This is not a photographic representation of past lives. I just try to express what it’s like. But there should be a picture which is more representational of crystals. I don’t know whether you have it there.

Rick: This one.

Jurgen: Yes. Now, this is my experience of entering a past life. And it started off that I saw a cloud in the sky, a silver cloud, but it was sparkling. And as I rose into the cloud, I realized the cloud was made out of crystals, tiny crystals like snowflakes or like raindrops. And then when I got closer, I noticed that each droplet or crystal had an image. And as I got closer still, I noticed that the image was animated. And then as I got really close, I could enter into this image and it became a virtual reality and I was suddenly in a time and a space which was of the past. And the interesting thing is the way I was attracted to it, and the way I was attracted to it came from deep within. There were billions of these crystals, and I could have deviated and picked out any other crystal, but I was attracted to this particular crystal. And I found myself in another era, in another world, but it was a physical world. It felt as physical as this one, and I could walk around it. And I found myself in one of the experiences being a knight or some sort of knight, I can’t say it was. I was carrying a sword and I was on a sort of quest there with some other rebels. I was part of a…

Rick: Do these crystals represent your past lives or just the lives of billions of people?

Jurgen: These are just… I sort of describe them as the Akashic Records.

Rick: OK. So it’s like the whole huge…

Jurgen: Yeah. You can get into any crystal. They are basically like data, a data stream, but the way they are represented [is] like a cloud. On closer inspection, they’re data points. And I was attracted to this particular data point and found myself in a previous life, in a gang of people going through the mud. I could feel the rain on my face, but also I observed it from my out-of-body state, while at the same time experiencing the life from within the person I was observing. So yes, it looks very, very real when you’re in this past life. You walk amongst the people and you’re entering the people and you immediately become cognizant of the relationship. For example, if you go into 17th- or 18th-century France, you may find yourself in a group of people and you recognize them immediately, your relationship with them, who they are, what they’re called, what they’re filled, what you went through at the time, what the town is like, and you see it from your consciousness-being point of view, as a self, you know. Any scenery you can imagine, you can walk through, like ancient Greece. You know the customs…

Rick: Is this like exploring your own past lives here, doing this? Like your life in Greece or France or…?

Jurgen: No, this is just a representation which I abstracted from my own experience.

Rick: I see.

Jurgen: But I have actually gone into the Middle Ages and that was prompted by an assignment for a book on medieval knights, and I tried to find references for the clothes they wore, you know. All I could find was illustrations in books from the library, but I wanted to know what they really looked like. So I had an out-of-body experience, and I projected myself into England in the Middle Ages, and I actually found a group of knights riding horses and milling around. And I observed exactly what they were wearing, the way they buttoned their shirts or all sorts of details I could observe. And then from that, I went back and felt much more confident to illustrate it.

Rick: Okay, next we’re going to do the Meditation section. And then a few questions have come in from listeners, so I’ll be asking you those in a few minutes. So this is interesting. How does this represent meditation?

Jurgen: Yes. I know. When you meditate, sometimes you get into a sort of in-between state. The best way to describe it is like liminal dreams or hypnagogic images where there are colors floating, lights, and things like that. But if you go much deeper into it and you try to find the origin of thoughts, they become quite abstract, you know. But they’re still tangible. The thoughts are still tangible. And I’ve created a video, which I sort of link you to, that describes the world of thought I discovered. Now meditation of course is an interesting thing. Right from the beginning, when I started living out of body experiences, I used meditation. And meditation can take as many forms as you can think of. For example, this is a meditation where the person focused on a holy character, like a saint or something. And when you do that in your meditation, you focus on it, you actually can meet that person in spirit. But not in spirit, but in reality, they become real, real people you can touch and talk to. And of course when you are in this kind of meditation, your whole environment becomes sanctified. The flowers can grow around you and you can actually create an environment which is synchronized to your meditation. But every meditation can be totally different. For example, in this case, I was in a meditation where I walked through an incredible gate, which people, when they reported, described [as] the seven gates. Other meditations… I traveled through a tunnel of kaleidoscopic colors. This one is a cover of my book. I made [this] the cover of my book. This is a sort of entering unity consciousness. And even now when I meditate, what I find is a space of light- very often that’s where I am. Sometimes it’s already waiting for me when I close my eyes, I’m in this space already because that’s what it is like. And then of course each image is a kind of meditation where you can travel through a tunnel, or you focus on the sun, and it evolves into a gateway to a higher state of consciousness. And it can be that you start off somewhere in a strange environment and then you start meditating and suddenly this portal opens for you, which is a light, a brilliant sun. And all kinds of things can happen as you travel towards this light. One incredible experience I had… I was meditating the OM mantra, And as I was saying the OM mantra, the clouds above me opened and the rays of the sun, similar to this [referring to image], sort of beamed down on me, and at the same time rose petals rained down on me, and each petal which touched me triggered a blissful experience. And each petal was a blessing energy. That’s the only way I can describe it. I was under a cascading of blessings coming. And then as I was drawn into this opening cloud, I suddenly heard this incredible chorus of a thousand people singing, and I was so overwhelmed by it. It was like angels sort of welcoming me. It sounds really corny when you talk about it, but it wasn’t really something you could easily describe. And my first impression was it can’t possibly be that there are all these people singing for me. And I thought, oh, well, it’s just a thought form. It’s just what I imagined it to be like, you know. But the actual reality literally feels as if you are – when you get into this kind of state of consciousness – that you actually are welcomed home in a way. There’s this sort of reflection or this response of consciousness which takes this shape.

Rick: The next section is called the Bliss Zone and some really pretty images here.

The Bliss Zone and Infinite Potential

Jurgen: So yes, I tried to train the AI to describe a world which is completely dynamic and completely filled of light and color that any kind of thought can conjure up, any kind of experience or any kind of manifestation, but everything sort of centered around the celestial, the feeling of unity, the homecoming of it, and being blessed, and this incredible joy which can be had, the landscape. And so I played around with this prompt and this model which I created for the AI to express exactly what I felt when you get into these regions, which expand infinitely, and at every corner, if you like. Every part of the landscape is a new potentiality, a new world to explore, a higher world of even higher order, and it doesn’t matter where you turn to, you find an opening into a completely new kind of manifestation of the higher state of consciousness. And as you travel through this world, it’s just an infinite expansion of joy, of bliss, of fulfillment, of realized potential. It’s infinite. It’s infinite in its profound glory and splendor, but even this cannot remotely express what it’s like because it’s not possible to describe. And I think that’s why many mystics who have experience, they’re just quiet about it. For example, what do you do with all the bliss? Some people just surrender, surrender to it and feel this incredible peace and rapture and are welcomed, really feel they’ve come home. But of course, I quite like this picture because the woman really surrenders to this bliss state, and the bliss state is something which is dynamic, which is not a static experience, but is simply a joyful experience which is a homecoming for which there are literally no words. But of course when people say it’s the end state, it’s not, this is only the beginning. Because once you enter into this bliss state, you suddenly realize that it is only the beginning of being human, really. It’s your potential. Your potential appears to be fulfilled, but it’s also the beginning of an infinite potential. That is a sort of feeling you get because everything is opening up, new states of consciousness which you have never experienced before become available to you.

Rick: Yeah, perhaps you can elaborate on that, because a lot of people feel like there is, or they’ve been taught, or they’ve read, or they think that there is some kind of end state and you’re gonna get there. Christians think they’re gonna be in heaven forever or some Hindus think they’re just going to sort of merge with the absolute and cease to exist as an individual and never reincarnate again. And then other Hindus say, “Well, you can go to these high heavens and hang out there until the end of this creation, but you’re going to come back in the next creation and have to live out life as a human being again and work yourself up through all these levels until you finally get enlightened.” And then some say, “Well, you can go to Brahma Loka and stay in Brahma Loka for a long time, and then you can get enlightened from there without having to come back as a human.” But one way or the other, there’s all this attitude of, you know, you’re out of here eventually. And then there’s this thing called the Law of One – I don’t know if you’ve ever heard of that – where they say that once you work through all the possible levels that a human being can work through, then you start out on level one on a whole new range of possibilities that are all higher than the range you’ve just gone through. So I don’t know. These are all interesting hypotheses to me.

Jurgen: I just gave a three-day seminar in Germany. One of the PowerPoint presentations I did was “What do you do after you enter eternity?” You know, how do you go from there? And the thing was, literally all options are open. When people say, “Oh, well, when you get there, you are reincarnated,” the first thing you realize is you have unlimited freedom, okay? The second thing you realize is you become like a channel, you know, of unity consciousness. You become a conduit, okay? And then your freedom, your personal freedom, allows you to pick what you want to do with this energy you have.

“When you reach unity consciousness, all your karma is basically non-existent because you illuminated all aspects of yourself, and you acquire total freedom, but also you become a conduit of the divine.”

Rick: You’re talking about a very high level, because obviously those people in the hell realms didn’t have very much freedom and also many people, if not most, have no choice about whether to reincarnate or not. They have to, right?

Jurgen: No, I’m talking for the point of view where you’ve reached unity consciousness.

Rick: Okay, there you go. Okay.

Jurgen: All your karma is basically non-existent because you illuminated all aspects of yourself, okay? And what happens then is you acquire total freedom, but also you become a conduit of the divine. And then whatever you do is guided by a divine energy. It takes advantage of your acquired individuality. So you are unfolding in areas which you have sort of accomplished or learned on. So you may actually decide to become a bodhisattva on a higher astral level or on a lower astral level, or you may incarnate on Earth or on another planet, or you may actually get together with a group of people and guide a certain part of evolution or group of people or some sort of technological endeavor. I mean basically what we have learned in our evolution as individual souls, we can take any part of it and expand on it, take it to levels which we never had the possibility of exploring, which can be in this galaxy or a completely different planet system, completely different era. Basically at the moment where we are at the moment as human beings, our choices are incredibly limited. We haven’t even touched the top of the top of the iceberg. So when people say, “Oh, well, it becomes boring sitting on a cloud and playing the harp,” you know, it’s the absolute opposite. We only just start to take advantage of our evolutionary path we have taken, and our evolutionary path is only a small segment of what is available to us. You cannot even begin to imagine what is possible, because we just haven’t got the information. And when our consciousness expands, we are only then just starting to wake up to what true potentiality means. And this is where whenever people say, “Oh, well, you can’t talk about it,” this is literally the truth. You cannot talk about it because the mind hasn’t got the faculties to deal with it, to work it out, to imagine it. It’s a state of consciousness beyond the mind, you know. It’s where knowledge ceases. You cannot know it. You can no longer know things because it’s on a completely different scale. And that’s what is so difficult to grasp because whatever we try to understand with our mind is working within limitations. When the mind becomes totally liberated from our limitations, then we can no longer talk about it. We can no longer find language to actually… you know…

Rick: Yeah, and of course these limitations you’re talking about are on the human level, and when you say you can’t know it or whatever, we can’t within the confines of the human nervous system and mind. But when you’re on these higher levels, then I imagine that a wisdom that far exceeds anything we can conceive of determines our choices. And you’re not just acting on a hunch or a whim, there’s a vast wisdom involved in directing your destiny.

Jurgen: Yeah, it totally expands. And one of my first experiences was when I came into this state of clarity – that that was the only word I could find: absolute clarity. And then I tried to find attributes for the state I experienced. I thought, well, the only word I can imagine is neutrality. But it wasn’t expressing it at all. It also was something that felt really absolute, but an absolute that had no boundaries. That was so difficult to put into words, or even to carry with you when you got out of this state, because when I got out of this state, I was simply a wreck. I collapsed on the floor and cried because my body couldn’t deal with it. It was just so beyond… And I looked down on myself, and I felt sorry for this little bundle of flesh lying on the floor crying, you know. And it was this sort of impossibility of actually putting a value to it or defining it. And of course, that totally changed my whole trajectory of life. So it never went away, you know.

Rick: Yeah. I heard some spiritual teacher once say that the reason we forget about where we’ve been before we become a human, if we’ve been in a nice place, is that if we could remember it clearly all the time, we’d have a really hard time functioning here, you know, because it would suck pretty bad compared to what we had been living. Let me ask you a bunch of questions that have come in from viewers. This one is from Mark Woll in Boston. Can we create our own astral earth populated with people who are creations of ours and watch them grow and develop civilizations?

Jurgen: I have to say… what I talk about is what I experience. You know, that would just simply be me, imagining things.

Rick: Yeah. That’s one thing I like about you is, you know, your experiences may seem fantastical, but I’ve often heard you say that you don’t want to say anything that is not corroborated by your experience.

Jurgen: No, that’s why I can’t say anything. I would like to speculate and say, oh yeah, it would be nice if we can create a whole earth with all the people, you know, like a big computer game, but I’ve never touched on that.

Rick: So okay, fair enough. Here’s one. The person didn’t give their name. This is a good question: I appreciate listening to your experience every chance I get. It opens something in me each time. My question is, How do you explain the architecture looking mostly European? I haven’t seen anything looking remotely African. What’s the reasoning for that, in your opinion?

Jurgen: My cultural limitations. I have been to parts in Indonesia on the Astral Plane. You know, I have been to Indonesia at one point where I saw a group of islands, very beautiful islands, with incredible beautiful huts, incredibly well designed, but that was a one-off experience. The thing is, I’m sort of conditioned by our culture where I live, and the…

Rick: You’re saying that your cultural conditioning as a European actually influences what you experience in the astral realms, and that an African or a Native American or somebody might have very different experiences.

Jurgen: I totally think that. That is the truth, because you go to the place which is closest to your vibration, let’s say. We are like strings of music or musical compositions. You wouldn’t suddenly, if you were, let’s say, Beethoven, you wouldn’t suddenly go to Charleston. You know, that is not your passion. You’re in a sort of musical composition and in a fractal arrangement which has a certain sound score, if you like, and you’re kind of working within this network of vibration. And that’s what I said earlier, there’s so much more to explore once you reach liberation. You can simply then transport yourself into a completely new universe, a new environment, when you have this option. We are simply too limited here. And there isn’t the time. I’ve only spent, you know, maybe a couple of hundred hours, maybe a bit more on the astral plane. The longest time I spent was six hours, from 12 o’clock at night to 6 o’clock in the morning. And [of] the incredible things I experienced in those six hours I could only take back about an hour and a half or two hours maximum into my physical brain. It was only fragments of memories of other places I spent in those six hours. And the thing was, when I was actually there, it felt so much more like my true home, and when I came back to my body, it was like descending into some darkness. So it’s just so difficult to talk about. And in a way, I’m glad that I didn’t spend more time because I would have neglected this life here, I think. I would probably not have been able to earn myself a living as a commercial illustrator.

Rick: Yeah. Okay, this one is from Liza Blau in New York: Do those people stuck in the lower astral realms still have life reviews, and were they met by deceased relatives when they cross over, as you often hear, you know, with near-death experiences, or does that happen after they manage to be rescued and go to a higher astral zone?

Jurgen: Yeah, I’m not 100% sure how these people got there, but mostly what we experience on the astral realm is a reflection or a mirror image of what we are on the physical or subconscious level. We are sort of limited by ourselves, our experience, our makeup, our character, our likes, our dislikes. This is what sort of reflects, is reflected on. So we are drawn into the environment which corresponds most closely to our signature as a human being, to our makeup. And there’s always a way out, I imagine, for people who are stuck there. But, my wife being a counselor, she said the people who want to progress have to have the readiness to want to come out of their dilemma. For example, she rejects people who are told by their partner to see a counselor, you know. And unless they come and phone her up themselves, she doesn’t even consider taking them on. So there has to be a readiness in people to want to progress. And it’s only then that they break out of their constraints or their inner prison and are able to find focus points in the outside world, which will take them out of their misery.

Rick: Maybe a certain amount of karma has to be burned off before they have the motivation. And I’m sure you would agree – or [rather] disagree – with the notion in some Christian denominations that you go to hell forever. I certainly don’t believe that. I believe there are hell realms, but I don’t think anybody gets stuck there forever.

Jurgen: I don’t believe that. I think as long as you have a connection which keeps you alive – which means there has to be a divine spark of intelligence which put you there in the first place, which is referred to as a soul – as long as you have that, you have always got a possibility of a way out. It just depends on the circumstances. If you think about it, I’ve seen some really decrepit states people are in, really desperate, like people who go out of their way to destroy lives for whatever personal gain or motivation. They are releasing an energy which is unimaginable of a scale because each action they created has a recipient. Let’s say they killed a person via a bomb or whatever. The person they killed via a bomb has got relatives and children, a father and a mother, and they carry the energy with them. And this energy is not something that just sort of simply dissolves. What they are creating, they’re putting it, their energy, into a mirror, which is consciousness. Consciousness is like a gigantic mirror, which sort of reflects back what it receives, I’m so sure about that. Funnily enough, I even ask AI, you know, what is AI, how does it work, what is it doing? And it said it’s just like a mirror.

Rick: Yeah.

Jurgen: And I find consciousness is like a mirror, Unity consciousness is just like a mirror. It reflects back what people put out. And if a thousand people are affected, they get a thousand times what they sent out back on them and they have to live with the consequences.

Rick: Yeah, there’s a guy named Danny Brinkley who was a sharpshooter in Vietnam, so he would kill people, you know, and he ended up having four near-death experiences later on in his life, and in each one, he experienced not only what the person he shot experienced, but what their wife felt, and their children, and their mother, and whoever else was impacted by them. There was this ripple effect where he had to kind of experience the ramifications of his action.

Jurgen: And if it takes a thousand lifetimes to experience that, that’s what it takes. And I feel quite brutal about that, and it sounds really cruel, but this is just the reality people create. And I feel almost sorry when I see some of these people who are alive today, who sort of saw a Nazi salute into the world, and connecting themselves to the misery of millions of people who died. Things like that. And then go and sign their name under an order which deprives people of medical care and condemns them to death. This is what I think.

Rick: Yeah, I wonder who you might be talking about.

Jurgen: Yeah, I don’t know.

Rick: All right. Okay, here’s a final question. This is from Canta Dadlaney in Mumbai, and it’s both about the future and the past: Have you ever experienced the future? And question number two: What about people you knew, old friends? Have you met them in your OBEs? And we could extend this to mean old friends from previous lifetimes.

Jurgen: Yes, yes I have. Then I went on to a retreat in Devon in 2021. I locked myself up in a cabin and meditated eight hours a day, consistently. And then one meditation, I started asking the question, Who are my friends? And then I was in a very, very, very beautiful level of unity consciousness. And suddenly there was somebody right in my heart I knew very well. It wasn’t a person I could see, it was right in my heart and they said hello to me. And I felt an incredible jolt of happiness and friendship and love, which was so intimate, which I’ve never experienced before. And then this entity or person separated from my heart, and I could see them. There were two of them. One was a bloke, and the other one was a woman. And I could see her. She came out of my heart. But there was this incredible intimate closeness, and she’d run off over a field wearing this summery dress, and she was dancing through the flower-covered field and waving around. And I knew her so well, but not from this life. It was a distant past, but that was the experience, the answer I had. I mean, if you feel you don’t have any friends, you only have to look a bit deeper on this level. And yeah, there are so many things I can mention.

Rick: How about the future? Have you ever had any intimations of the future?

Jurgen: Yeah, when I went to Scotland, I had, after my ten-minute moment, I had an experience where I saw a glimpse of the future, which was actually quite positive. I didn’t see any sort of end-of-the-world scenarios. And there were two levels of it. One was in the sort of near future, like the next 100, 200 years, where I became aware of a new kind of technology, which was very dynamic, very organic, which I illustrated, documented, in my book The Ten-Minute Moment. And then one much further ahead where people finally realized that they are part of nature, a very intrinsic aspect of nature, and they behaved accordingly. But that was not something I experienced in the way I had past life experience where I was actually there. It was more like an image.

Rick: OK. Final question. This is from Boon Swan Ho in Singapore: Thank you for your time and your wonderful books. What are your thoughts and experiences with the UAP phenomenon, including alien abduction experiences and common types of entities encountered by experiencers, such as mantis beings, grey aliens and reptilians?

Jurgen:  Yeah, again, my experience is limited. I had two alien experiences. One was where I was on a spaceship going on another planet, and the aliens were nothing like they are described. One alien here only had one eye in the middle, and he was only four foot tall, and I asked him, literally asked him, “How advanced are you?” And he said, “We are just as corrupt as your human species.” [Laughter] The second one, which I described in my book Vistas of Infinity, was where I was taken by some aliens who had an incredibly beautiful appearance – human-like, but with purply-blue skin, like velvet, velvety, which would change hues. Incredibly beautiful clothes. And they would take me on a spaceship, which I tried to illustrate using AI, and I couldn’t manage it because the closest I could come was like a flowing carpet, a flying carpet, but made out of light, okay? And we were traveling through space, which was not space we see at night, but it was light? And we arrived at a planet where I immediately… Again, I tried to get the AI…. I did hundreds of pictures, trying to get a picture of it, which I could not understand, I could not really take in because it was so unfamiliar that I couldn’t find any reference in my experience to describe it. [It] gradually emerged as very fractal, very luminous floating objects. And then these people introduced me… One was a guide and he was keen to show me how their species reproduced. And he was showing me a courting, a sexual sort of encounter of the species, but it was more like what you see in the insect world. But it was just him as a human, who was only about a tenth of the size of the female, which was basically a massive pattern, like a flower, which had no human features at all. And this guy entered it and as he consummated the relationship, that’s the only way I can describe it.

Rick: Consummated, yeah.

Jurgen: There was an incredible energy radiating out from the event which had an effect on the whole area, the whole world there.

Rick: Interesting.

Jurgen: It was quite different to what I would have imagined. There was no spaceship where you go up a ladder and get into space. None of that at all. It was just completely unexpected, you know. I spent ages sort of getting an AI representation. I did a pretty good match of the guy in my book, if you have it there. There’s a blue character. I don’t know whether I put it in here, probably not.

Rick: I don’t think so. No.

Jurgen: But I got very close to the representation of it. And of course, there are other aliens. Interestingly enough, they look like octopuses. And there’s an interesting program about octopuses, and I wondered, you know, they’re regarded as highly intelligent.

Rick: Yeah. Even on Earth, they’re very intelligent.

Jurgen: And that was a kind of representation of an alien species I came across. Many arms, a very dexterous sort of individual.

Rick: I’m reminded of Hamlet’s famous line to Horatio, “There are more things in heaven and earth, Horatio, than are dreamt of in your philosophy.” So, thanks so much, Juergen. I really enjoyed this. It went even more smoothly than I thought. I didn’t know how it was going to go, showing all these slides and everything, but I think it went really well. And I’ll be creating a page on BatGap – I’ve already created it – and it has a link to this book, and also to your previous books. So if people want to get the actual book… because there’s a whole lot of text in the book that accompanies these photos, and there are a lot more photos than we showed during the interview. So people might want to get it. All right. Well, thanks so much, Juergen. I really appreciate it. And we’ll be in touch, I’m sure, as we have been over the last 10 years occasionally. And thanks to those who’ve been listening or watching. And my next guest will be a lovely woman from Dublin who is a – I guess you would say she’s a mystic. She started out as an attorney, and she started having all these mystical experiences. I just finished reading her book. Her name is Aedamar Kirrane. And I loved the book. It was just full of wisdom and very beautifully written. And you can get it on audio and hear her read it in her Irish accent. So that’ll be the next guest. So thank you all. And we’ll see you for the next one. [MUSIC PLAYING] Thank you. [MUSIC PLAYING]