Interviewer: Rick Archer (RA)
Interviewee: Aisha Salem (AS)
Date of interview: February 24, 2015
RA: Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump. My name is Rick Archer and my guest today is Aisha Salem. Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of conversations with spiritually awakening people. For more information or to support our efforts please go to http://batgap.com. And if you go there under the past interviews menu you’ll notice a new item which is a geographical guest index in which you can type in a particular location and if any of the people I have interviewed are teaching in that area you’ll see their name pop up. And if you try that and nothing pops up, broaden your search. So for instance, if you try Manhattan and nothing comes up try New York and then you’ll see a bunch of things. And so after I interview Aisha you’ll see Denmark and uh, perhaps other places where she teaches. So, I have a fairly long biography of Aisha here. And, uh, I actually found it very interesting. And I want to kind of pick it apart during the first part of this interview and ask her a bunch of questions based upon it. But first of all read the first little bit then we’ll get talking. So… “Aisha Salem is a woman in Truth. The deep integration with her human being gives way for her to operate across all levels of Being with an indefinably transparent yet deeply tantric approach, which has no seed of renunciation based on rejection or avoidance but has fulfillment and completion – and thereby freedom within existence – as beyond it – at its core. For more than 12 years, Aisha has been cultivating and realizing in deep surrender, the Truth of Being across all different dimensions – over Heart to Mind and deeply into the gut. Her dedication has brought her into realization of her Self as Universal Consciousness, beyond Existence into the Absolute and back into existence as the True Incarnation.” So, even that, Aisha, gives us some stuff to start with. I like your use of the term “dimensions” because I really feel like we are multidimensional beings, you know. And a lot of times, people try to oversimplify, in my opinion, and dismiss the whole notion of there being different dimensions on which we have to operate. So, what would you say about that for starters?
AS: In a way you could say that there is a fullness in acknowledging the different dimensions which allows us to realize Source through and to the core in a way which doesn’t dismiss neither the acknowledgement of ourselves as nothing, as the absolute, which doesn’t dismiss our recognition of ourselves as the deeply divine and which doesn’t bypass the reality of the deep humanity and the human qualities.
RA: It’s interesting that you should outline it in those 3 levels because even in the ancient Vedic tradition, they spoke of Adi Atma, Adi Deva and Adi Buddha, meaning sort of the absolute, the divine and the world. Those 3 dimensions being the realm within which human beings are capable of operating. I know that you didn’t really have any formal teachers in terms of human beings. (Laughs). Most of them were sort of disincarnate and we’ll get into that. But, you know, I’ve been listening to your recordings for the last week and you have a great deal of ability to articulate all sorts of traditional teachings that you probably never even studied in terms of books or anything.
AS: No, never. (Chuckles). It’s amazing what you actually can download in pure surrender simply.
RA: That’s how really you got most of what it is you’re teaching and that you know is just kind of a download process, right?
AS: Surrender, yeah.
RA: Where did this start? In your biography, you said “you’re born in 1979 raised in a nonreligious family in Denmark. You began in, living a fairly conventional life and attained education in business school and established a family and had a child and went to work in a big international firm. Then it all settled, and it became obvious to you that this life was unfulfilling, and things began to change.” You say in your bio that “at the age of 24 that the question “Who am I?” rose in your mind in the demand, with the demand for Truth.” You just mention the word surrender. You said: “Due to complete surrender in Love of her Self as All, Life broke loose knocking down every illusion of individual existence through 1,5 years of extreme spiritual unfoldment.” Let’s talk about that.
AS: Well, there was a strong living, which made it possible for me to actually attain the goals that I wanted, establishing the family, all of the things that I thought that I wanted. And as everything fell into place it was just very obvious that there was something off in that. And the reality of that was that, well, I was missing from that equation. And it had been an establishment of what I’ve actually just, if you look outside yourself, what you see everyone else doing. So in that I had just fell actually just completely asleep. And at some point there was that ignition where I realized the duality in that where all of a sudden I realized the two voices: the voice of my brain and the rational and the voice of my heart. And right there, of course, that “Who am I? That question rose very strongly and required an answer. How could live a life if I didn’t know who I am?
RA: So when you say you fell completely asleep you mean that you were just so into the family, the business life, and all that, that you had lost all sense of who you were. There was just no quest for that but then that quest arose again.
AS: Uhm, hm. You know that life where everything runs on schedule. And where there is like the on-going drill day by day which is based on the things that one thinks that one has to do. There is very little room for freedom in that.
RA: Now, knowing what you know now and having developed in the ways you’ve been developing all these years. Even though you’re not living a conventional life, even now, would you say it’s possible to? And yet have the sort of realization that you now have? Or does realization necessitate an abandonment of conventional life in some universal way.
AS: You have to kind of define what that conventional life is then, because if that conventional life is living according to a specific set of movements, a specific set of fitting into something then the answer is no. In a way you could say that the human living is definitely possible and in that sense there is the deeper and deeper invitation down into what just looks normal in a way. But at the same time it’s completely penetrated and permeated by Truth and Source and the birth of Truth through everything.
RA: So would you say that a person could be a mother raising a few kids and yet be a deep mystic you know with a foot in both camps so to speak? Or a businessman you know running a business and yet have that sort of deep mystical and experiential awareness. Or do you feel like profound spiritual unfoldment is necessarily going to entail a complete disruption of almost anybody’s life, as they know it.
AS: Definitely yes. It is disruptive completely disruptive. It dismantles everything, but at the same time in passing through that there is no limit to what you can do. What there is is a very definite to what you want to do and that very definite “want to do” is based on the surrender and that which is most enriching in terms of that birth of Truth.
RA: So in other words you might have your plans and your intentions and your goals and your thoughts, but the deeper Truth has other plans for you and you’re going to have to relinquish your individual plans if you want to live that deeper Truth. Is that what you’re saying?
AS: Well, surrender is just like becoming a slave of God, isn’t it? So following that life and life’s intention in that is everything.
RA: Is surrender something that one can do willfully? “Ok I really want this I’m going to surrender.” Or could you end up getting caught in just following whims if you think you’re surrendering but you really just kind of like going with whatever pops into your head and you’re not actually surrendering to higher truth.
AS: Surrendering is an inner gesture. It’s an inner gesture of letting go and that letting go is not just a melting down. It’s not just a melting down and letting things fall off. It’s also, at the very core of that, a rising, a rising as the very pinnacle of truth, that which is the core strength of you.
RA: But I mean can one choose to surrender or is it something that just sort of grabs you when the time is right.
AS: In a way, you can see it like, from the conscious point, the willingness to surrender means a lot. It’s like the tip of the iceberg. But it’s also that tip which in its, in its basic humility that willingness to surrender actually that reveals and unveils the whole capacity of life itself through you. So in that sense yes, it is in part, that part of being willing to take full responsibility for yourself, for living a life in truth, in full self honesty, in full honesty to everything around you and anything that has anything to do with you.
RA: In your experience, both in your own personal experience and your experience of dealing with students, if you call them students, is surrender, or is a cultivation of that willingness goes from 0 to 100 in a snap or is it something that you move into by degrees and you can only go so far and get established there and then you can take the next step?
AS: Well there are phases in all of this and the purification of consciousness is a step by step deal because what’s coming in there in that purification of consciousness and not to mistake that for the awakening itself, awakening beyond existence. But within existence there is a wearing down of the resistance to the full surrender and that’s the same as stepping, step by step into a more and more full dedication, a fuller and fuller dedication which brings every part of your life, step by step, into that clarity, into that simplicity, into the freedom, the spiritual freedom.
RA: So it sounds like you’re saying that the purification of consciousness happens by degrees, it’s a progressive process over time. But there’s a difference between purification of consciousness and actual awakening, right? But would it be true to say and maybe you’ve actually said, that the purification of consciousness is a pre-requisite or a preparation for full awakening or a profound awakening.
AS: Well, it is a prerequisite. You could say in a way that most people when they start embracing reality, they start looking for truth they start looking for reality, they look for truth but only within that which they know. And to start off with since identification is with existence, there is body identification, there is identification with me then that looking for truth becomes a looking within existence and the bursting of that bubble cannot really happen without us wearing down all of that which is trying to solve, trying to find reality within existence.
RA: And so the wearing down by definition is kind of a progressive process. If you want to polish a stone, you know, the stone doesn’t go from rough to polished in one moment. It has to sort of go through a tumbler or something and get gradually worn down, become smooth. I guess the question arises, how? We’re speaking in terms of general things. We’re going to get back. We’re going to get much more into your particular story. But, you know, a person listening to this says, “Ok, that sounds good. I want that to happen. How do I make it happen?”
AS: (laughs), how do I make I happen?
RA: All right, yeah, even that’s a contradiction in terms, isn’t it? (Laughs)
AS: Yeah, but we have to use some words, I guess, to define this.
AS: There is no right or wrong in terms of doing this, not doing this. In a way you can say that everything comes down to connecting and deeply emerging as the core voice of your own being. It’s like falling in love with yourself but doing it in a way where you come into full respect of yourself. And through that come into a spiritual maturation which then actually in the process of that makes way for and sharpens the sword which in the end can cut the head off in a way. You can say it like that. It’s is in very few words this. It is very simplified. It’s got many phases and in a way you can say that there is endless allies of being waiting to be discovered and waiting to be aligned and acknowledged through our beings. The potential is endless.
RA: Yeah, I find that exciting actually. And, uh, I want to talk to you more about that. Some people say that there are 7 billion people on the Earth therefore there are 7 billion paths to God or to realization that no one size is going to fit all. And if you take attitude, then all the different people doing this thing and that thing and studying with this teacher and practicing that practice and so on. They are all following their own course towards the ultimate, the same motion ultimately. Would you agree with that?
AS: In the work that’s happening through this being there is a recognition and a seeing of the, you can say the soul blueprint for each of the people who are appearing. And this blueprint is different for everyone and that’s a part of what actually makes their way, their way. In this way we can’t really establish a teaching like that, like walk these steps and then this will happen because the very core of each being is defined by what and where am I pulled if I’m listening to myself and if I’m following that authority of my own being without the compromise of selling out on that voice inside of me. How can I be supported in that? And that support becomes the facilitation and that as teachers as far as I can see, that’s what needs to be supported. It’s not about the step like this or step like that. It’s more like allowing and paving the way for the listening to become deeper and deeper and deeper.
RA: So, right now you’re teaching a retreat in Denmark and you’ve got about 20 people on the retreat. And so when you sit in a group like that do you actually cognize in some way the soul blueprint, as you put it, of each of those people or do you have to kind of go in depth one-on-one and get to know a person much better before you get a sense of what their particular soul blueprint might be.
AS: Well, in a way you can say that the recognition which has happened through this heart in terms of the purification has revealed pure consciousness or what I could refer to as God realization. It’s the same as the loss of the container, which makes any kind of separation between that which is registered as me and that which is in front of me. And in this regard when I’m sitting with people I get all of the information of these people. And that means that it’s not something that I get, it’s just present. And in that presence, my body just comes to operate completely spontaneously according to what’s needed for each individual. But it is completely individual. It doesn’t mean that there is not speech which can and does reach many people and take many flies in one whoop. (Laughs).
RA: (Laughs) Kill many birds with one stone. (Both laugh)
AS: But within that that which makes people special is the way in which they are tricking themselves. That’s the specialness. But the uniqueness is revealed through the invitation of the individuality, of that soul blueprint so to speak.
RA: So you’re saying that each person has their own special way of tricking themselves? Is that what you’re saying? We each have our own little tricks? We each have our own tricks. And tricking ourselves to do or not to do what? To wake up? Are we tricking ourselves to stay asleep? Is that what you’re saying?
AS: Yeah, yeah! It’s like, uh, those loops that the mind is running, that the feelings are running, what is consciousness doing? If you imagine that every human being has a dashboard, that dashboard, the buttons on it are set differently on each person. And then it’s about turning that button a little and turning that button a little and that actually unleashes this and that and then everything falls into place accordingly.
AS: Then it’s about like how much can people take in terms of getting those buttons turned up to straight.
RA: I’m laughing because we just spent 25 minutes trying to get the audio balanced between you and I and we were tweaking buttons for all that time. So, you say, when you meet with a person individually or interact with a person, you receive a lot of information about them. Is it the kind of information that you could sit down and talk about for ten minutes? You know this, this, this, this, this, or is it a feeling, non-verbal, non-conceptual kind of thing that you’re tuning into.
AS: As such I don’t go rummaging for information. There is no doing here in that sense. So when you say this that I receive a lot of information. Actually I don’t receive anything. Because in a way you could say that my being is constantly seeing. So this seeing then it’s about “ok, the human being moving in front of me”. The same seeing which is the case all the time then just sees what is in front. And when that human being then communicates then it’s about seeing “ok, what’s in play? What’s in play?” Because you can’t give one answer to one specific question.
AS: Because it depends on what is speaking. If there is a speaking from the sincerity, if there is a speaking from the willingness to surrender then the answer itself comes as a soft breeze you know. A soft breeze leading that deeper into itself. If it comes through or as a resistance then it’s an entirely different answer. And then it’s a pointing out and the pointing out comes out through sharp clarity and that straightness actually cuts down that which is standing in the way so it’s a rewiring of consciousness so to speak that’s going on in the meetings.
RA: Does this happen with you all the time like when you’re in a supermarket shopping or is it like mainly when you’re in a teaching capacity and in a meeting?
AS: Well as we talked about with these different dimensions the freedom is actually not being stuck in any dimension. I can step freely into the being nothing. I can step freely into the being everything. I can also step freely into the being human. And it’s not being a human as in the identification with it, but it’s in terms of where is the I placed in terms of these dimensions and since there is no reaching for realization or any clinging to it, if there is a constant letting go of realization then everything reveals itself and everything becomes free and up for free movement within that roundness of being.
RA: And when you say that you step into these different dimensions does it have to be this one or that one or that one or can it be simultaneous where you kind of operating across a spectrum in a number of dimensions simultaneously.
AS: But that’s always the case isn’t it?
RA: I should think.
AS: It’s always the case. Yeah, yeah.
RA: But maybe there, would you say that there is kind of a shift in the, you’re on, the spectrum is wide, but the actual focal point on that spectrum kind of moves according to the circumstances, would you say that?
AS: Yes, but according to the circumstances, always depends on what’s necessary for the birth of truth. So when picking stuff out of the supermarket, (laughs), well, yeah, it’s very simplified, there is not much need for a sword to go through when I’m picking vegetables, you know? But if I go to the cash register and there is a situation going on out there, then the power is like (clicks her fingers) it can like flip into the core of whatever is going on in a second. So, it operates very intelligently actually when it is free.
RA: I find this interesting and I’ve had this kind of discussion with other people as well. You know this kind of like, um, flexibility between or among dimensions, where one just spontaneously, naturally shifts one’s orientation or focus according to the need of the moment, the need of the situation, which is basically what you just said but I just want to reiterate it because I think it’s a valuable point. And I think it’s valuable because some teachers, they seem to be a little bit monochromatic, or something, they seem to be emphasizing one dimension to the exclusion of the others. I’m not sure that’s really as helpful.
AS: In a way you can say that, it seems to me that there are three allies through which we can get stuck in realization and that which grasps, which started out grasping our identity as a me as a separate me. That can just as well grasp nothing. It can just as well actually grasp love. And it can just as well grasp power. And these are the three temptations so to speak, which show themselves in the further deepening into each of these dimensions.
AS: Power is that which reveals itself in the gut. And Love is that which reveals itself in the heart, of course, or God, call it whatever you want. And then there is the Absolute, there is the void, there is absolutely nothing, in that recognition through the headspace. And each of these can by that which grasps, actually become, it’s like, uh, can become a hideout as in there is, there is some kind of fuel which sets off towards a realization, but that fuel often can be connected with a certain life pain or something. And that also means that once the recognition comes, if there is not a full passing through the temptation of grasping either of these love, power or clarity, if there is not a straight passing through those, then they can become a hide out, and then that of course that becomes the very basic of the, of the teaching which goes through the teacher itself. But it becomes an avoidance of meeting deeper oneself and further oneself in either of the dimensions. It often happens like that.
RA: Without naming names, I can think of examples of people who are, I would say, are grasping the nothingness and just sort of emphasizing on that to the exclusion of the other dimensions. I can also think of spiritual people who’ve gotten drunk with power and who’ve gone on power trips, but I can’t think of people and maybe I need to have you explain more clearly what it would mean to have someone grasp on the love dimension. What would that look like?
AS: That would look like often spiritual mothers. That would look like a place where there is a sacrificing going on. Do you understand?
RA: Uh, hm.
AS: Because in the whole resolution and the coming into full transparency there are certain tricks that the system can be playing on itself and the savior syndrome is one of them.
AS: The moment that the surrendering human being surrenders but in that bypasses the human realm wherein that the spiritual mother then just becomes just supported by a lot of other people which actually is taking care of that human being. I mean it’s a beautiful and it’s a beautiful intention and it’s a beautiful cause but there is a greater alignment which a, which awaits, which is a lot more sustainable so to speak, because right there it can be based on, yeah, as I said, the savior syndrome is what I refer to it as. Yeah.
RA: When you say spiritual mothers, do you mean like Amma whom I have a picture of over my shoulder or Karunamayi or Anandamayi Maa, or Mother Meera, and those lady saint type people or are you referring to something else?
AS: That alley. Yes.
RA: Yeah? So you think that that’s actually a cul-de-sac, grasping or, uh…
AS: No, it’s not so much as a grasping. Every blue print has a different shape it wants to unfold as but in terms of that which is sustainable for every human being to realize there is an invitation wherein the human being itself is not bypassed as a human being, or in the human integrity, the human wisdom comes out as an emanation of source through all three, through all three dimensions and all three dimensions as such doesn’t pass by that integrity of the human being.
RA: Uh, huh.
AS: It’s almost like I can say that there is a respect, a deep respect, for every human being’s life and living. Do you understand?
RA: I think I do. Let me make sure I do. For instance, the examples I just mentioned of, you know those saintly women, most of them, as far as I know, certainly respect, well one of them is deceased anyway, Anandamayi Maa, but they respect and seem to love very greatly the human beings with whom they interact, but there also seems to be, and I’ve had personal experience with three of them, there also seems to be, you know, the transcendent dimension very profoundly and uh, and that’s where they ultimately reside and, then they’re, you know, they are powerful, you mentioned power as one of the three dimensions, but don’t seem to be abusive about that power as far as I can tell. It’s not like they’ve gotten stuck in it.
RA: So there does seem to be a dimensionality, but you said a minute ago that everyone has their role to play and you know the Sanskrit word is dharma. We all have our different modes of expression and what I’m going to do is going to be different from what you’re going to do or what somebody else is going to do.
RA: In terms of being really a servant to God.
AS: There are, there are different tasks that we all have here.
RA: Yeah. Different roles to play.
RA: Let me get back to your story a little bit. Reading on in your biography here, you said: “Your massively expanding consciousness sent you through daily trances, bodily burning, periods of bodily paralyzation, layer after layer of consciousness breaking your existence down and revealing the reality of your Self.” Capital S. So, that’s reminiscent of what you were talking about a little while ago about purification of consciousness and it’s an interesting thing I think. It’s not something which everyone seems to go through, at least not everyone has gone through it yet, and yet has made very profound spiritual progress and had profound spiritual awakenings, but a good many do go through it and in some cases it’s totally incapacitating and if they don’t know what’s going on they can even go running to psychiatrists or something trying to figure out what in the heck is happening to them. So how long did…
RA: Yay, (laughs), how long did this last for you and let’s talk about the phenomenon in general of having to go through sort of intense physical purification.
AS: Yeah, it’s like, in the surrender itself, there is a core acknowledgment of not bypassing the body.
RA: Uh, huh.
AS: And in that a lot of a lot of phenomena show itself. And how it was like. Well, for a year and a half, there was daily, constantly, expansion of consciousness, and within that like, all sorts of things happening, like trances, and resetting of everything, and having to relearn everything over and over again. And like everything that comes with that.
RA: Basic stuff like brushing your teeth. Or relearning what kind of stuff?
AS: It’s like when you wake up in the morning and you have no clue what is, and then ok, you have no clue what you’re supposed to be doing, and you’re actually just a blank sheet of paper. And then waking up without any kind of personal preference. This is just an example, you know. There are so many different angles of this and ways to be deleted and flushed down the toilet because that’s basically what was happening. Waking up in bed and not really knowing what you’re supposed to do or like ok, so there is like something called clothes and what am I supposed to do with it? And are they supposed to go on the body? And stuff like that…(Laughs)
RA: (Laughs) So, basic stuff, like brushing your teeth, what’s this thing? (Laughs).
AS: Yeah, yeah.
RA: What was your orientation to this as it was going on? Were you encouraging it in some way? Hoping it to even accelerate it further? Were you resisting it? Or were just kind of along for the ride and just sort of innocently letting what happened happen?
AS: In a way you can say it was a very, very strong decision and commitment to love. Right there I mean love and the purification of the heart; the burning of the self-center was the entrance for my being into Reality. So that was the first and also the first place that I got stuck before I acknowledged that that was the option of getting stuck there. In going fully into that surrender, it reflected itself completely into my living life, into my decisions, into anything that had anything to do with me.
RA: So you knew that something good was happening in other words and you didn’t go running to doctors or what not?
AS: Definitely not.
RA: So, you realized, yeah, ok, this is some kind of spiritual transformation taking place.
AS: Yeah, it’s like you know, in a way you can so, ok, today the evolution of consciousness is kicking everyone’s ass in a way. So, you can say that I stepped in front of it. And that meant that the, the tip of my iceberg, the conscious me was stepping in front of it by being co-operative with whatever was going on. By being willing to take full responsibility. By being willing to let Existence twist and turn exactly the way it wanted to by listening to myself. So, you’re right, I didn’t read any books, but what I did do, was to investigate myself and my ways, my life, my thinking, my feelings properly. In a way where I could tear off all the things, which had anything to do with what, had been put in there. Like the voice of the parents, all of the people, everything that had been considered to be authority. And dissecting everything that I saw around me and in a way I could see that “hey no one knows what they’re doing”. And if no one knows what they’re doing then I better listen to me, because then I trust me more than I trust anyone around me like that.
RA: Did you manage to stay married during this phase or had that already ended?
AS: Actually the marriage was over.
RA: And what about your child? Was it a daughter or a son?
AS: A son…
RA: So, what was happening with the son during all this?
AS: Well, at first…
RA: He was pretty young then.
AS: Yes, he was. At first, he lived with me. And he lived with me for the first six years of his life. And this was going on from he was around two years old. And from that time…
RA: (Laughs). So he was teaching you how to dress rather than the other way around?
AS: (Laughs). Yeah, kind of. Kind of. (Both laugh).
AS: It’s like, uh, the universe always supplies, the universe always helps out. In that sense, when there is that willingness to surrender then all of a sudden, whatever is needed appears literally on the doorstep. So, I had people helping me through that phase and I had people helping me in terms of taking care of the child, so he wasn’t left alone when I all of a sudden drifted into these trance states and all this. So there was a good care taking of him.
RA: Yeah, you were lucky to have that, because, I don’t know about Denmark, but in this country if someone was going through that kind of stuff and had a small child, there is a very good chance that they would have the child taken way. Because, you know, people wouldn’t understand what they were going through. They would think, you know, “This woman is incompetent”.
AS: Yeah, yeah, yeah.
RA: The child would end up in social services.
AS: Yeah, but there is something about this. That is that the certainty of what was going on, even though no one around me knew what was going on. I had a friend who had been going through a phase of his own awakening and in that, in that meeting with him it also accelerated itself. But within that also knowing to stay away from the people. I mean when I looked around I knew that no one knew anything. And that just meant that whatever was going on with me, that I could stand the power of that, and trust in that, so no matter what it looked like from the outside, I could keep on repeating the fact of trusting. And, everything…
RA: Did you ever have doubts about it? Did you go through periods “is this really, am I really onto something or am I going crazy”? Did you ever have those kinds of thoughts?
RA: That’s good.
RA: We’re going to get into some more stuff in a few minutes, but I have a feeling that you’re one of these people who did a lot of spiritual practice and made a lot of spiritual progress in past lives. And, uh, you’re just kind of like, when you came into this life, you kind of just kicked in again, and the process continued where it left off.
AS: Popped in. (laughs)
RA: Popped in. Ok, so a bit more from your bio here. So, “As Life penetrated your body, demanding you to swallow the pill of purification, realization happened gradually by your Being becoming pure Life itself. In the realization as Universal consciousness, the answer became clear. God is Love is Life is Me.” Any comments about that?
AS: There’s not so much to say about it, is there?
RA: No, so realization happened gradually?
AS: The recognition came to itself. It’s more like the wearing down of all of that which rises as separate from all around it. So in a way you can say that that which can appear as separate from everything else. It just had a life span. It had a so and so many times it could rise as separate from anything else. Almost like the sexual energy has so many shots, and when they’re worn down, then there’s just the, that wide open. So that recognition of love and the complete breaking down of love as anything, just remains as the recognition, as pure life and in seeing everything and in sitting on the couch and at the same time seeing people on bike in China, I mean there can’t really be any question of, (chuckles), what am I? (Chuckles).
RA: Ok, so, what you just said, you threw in a few things there, which kind of might be head scratchers for some people. So, you mentioned sexual energy and went right on to other stuff. So, this whole transformation that you’d been going through with this whole burning of the body and purification taking place and all. Are you implying that it all had to do with sexual energy?
AS: In a way you can say that the sexual energy is just pure life, pure energy, but with the twist of identification on it.
RA: Ah, ha.
AS: So, sexual energy is not really about sex. It’s more about the fact of an identity. A rising of pure life which then carries a seed of wanting or not wanting on it. And that becomes the very definition of identification and identity arising as that.
RA: Ok, yeah, I understand. So, same energy, but maybe you can even say it this way that if it gets stuck at a certain point or I think you said grasping or wanting then, then it takes a sexual form but if it gets unstuck and moves on then there is no longer the sexual flavor to it. It’s more kind of a higher energy or a heart energy. I don’t mean to put words in your mouth, but is that what you’re saying?
AS: Yeah, basically.
AS: In a way you can say that that sexual energy is actually what carries that whole train of realization because the sexual energy itself is that which needs to be directed inside through the whole nervous system and all the winds of the nervous system needs to return to its very source for awakening for instance. So, even that which goes out through the heart that’s like one way around it. But that’s one realization. That’s one dimension of realization. In life, from moving, I went from the recognition of myself as God Self, as the heart realization, which is Self, but from there there was a calling back into solitude. And that solitude actually allowed the flipping from the pure heart to the pure mind. It’s a very small step. Once the purification of consciousness has happened, then that step into pure mind or actually beyond Existence is not so very big. Yeah.
RA: Interesting. I think this might start relating to, or maybe we’re already past the point of introducing the, what you experienced with these various Tibetan masters, that you mentioned in your bio. I think it would be interesting to talk about that. So you received instruction, if you want to call it that, we can elaborate on what that actually was, from three or four different disembodied Masters who lived, you know, as much as almost a thousand years ago, “starting with Tibetan Master, Djwhal Khul or something, who appeared for 1,5 years, as a supporter for the revelation of Self/God, during your initial surrender to Life and ending in a merger with the Master.” So, that’s also rather specific and we’ll get into several others. What was the actual experience of that? How did you know it was a Tibetan Master? What? Were you seeing the face of a Tibetan Master clearly? Were you receiving any kind of verbal instruction or transmission? Or, what was going on?
AS: It’s like, if you see the whole process of surrender that my whole body went through, and I went through, that happened, through everything and in that, there was from the subtle fears, there was an appearance. And the appearance itself. There has been a lot of work happening in the dream state. It seems that the Tibetan Masters really…
RA: In you, you mean? With you?
AS: Yeah. So, right there the meeting itself with this Master appeared. And that was like a seeing, a total seeing of him. And to start out with I thought he was a Chinese Master, I thought that for a long time, but then there was a recognition of the energy and a picture of Djwhal Khul at some point, but it’s doesn’t really matter. The point in it is that, it was like a constant exchange of information between that being, that bulk of consciousness, so to speak, and this one. In that initial surrender, it showed, because of course, then I came from identification itself which was being reversed back into everything and in that there is a lot of tests, there’s a lot of revelations of abilities, powers, all of these things. And within that, you could say that this being was a great helper in terms of being a protector of, a protector of Existence, by being a constant reminder. It was just like being a tap on my shoulder. If any carelessness showed itself within my being, in terms of ok if something reveals itself, and I had a pretty immature mind at that point. I mean there were parts of me that were just completely human and playing and stuff like this with things that shouldn’t be played with. So in that sense there was that protection and constantly having a teacher and all of the time being able to tap into, into that bulk of consciousness, to connect with that deeply, into that, in a way where I could actually disappear from this plain of existence and then just be with this teacher and then that with that over 1.5 years it just ended with just a visit and then actually a coming down into this body and that was like open brain surgery happening for a couple of hours. And after that, that being has only appeared from within my own being. But you could say that the knowledge of that being is a part of what is teaching as this life, as my life, when there is teaching going on.
RA: So, you mentioned dream state. So was all this interaction with this Tibetan Master in the dream state? Or was it also happening in the waking state or in a meditative state or something like that?
AS: In a way you can say that that year and a half was a complete entering into a deeper and deeper meditative state because it wasn’t like. It was like meditation started living itself through me, seeing him happened in the dream state, but there was the feeling, the hearing, the voice and stuff like that could still happen just by the waking state.
RA: So, what this implies, and we’re going to be talking about some more of these Masters, is that there are enlightened beings hanging around on some level who are overseeing things on Earth. Maybe Jesus is such a being. There’s so many people have an orientation toward Jesus. And who intervene and get involved with certain people when they are ready to move on. So, they’re really serving as Gurus even though they don’t have physical human bodies. So is that what’s really happening? As far as you know?
AS: Yeah, it seems like it yeah. I mean in a way I can say that the way I have been taught by through Masters is also how people are in communication and cooperation with me. I also appear in people’s dream state. There is a conscious moving and teaching on that level of being with people.
RA: And, uh, how does this differ from channeling? A lot of people are into channeling these days.
AS: Define channeling.
RA: Well, as I understand it, when I see people channeling, they actually serve as a spoke, a loud speaker, or a conduit for a particular entity or being, who may be an extraterrestrial or something like Saint Germaine and different things and they actually take on a different voice sometimes, a different accent, when they’re channeling this entity.
RA: And they go on and they say things and so on. And then when they’re finished channeling they go back to their normal voice, their normal self. Maybe you could distinguish between…
AS: You asked me how is this different.
RA: Yeah, how does this contrast with what I just described.
AS: It contrasts in the way that here, at this point, back then there was a tearing down, of everything that pointed back to me here, and that means that all of the knowledge, which was installing itself, was installing itself as me. So in that sense everything, everything is me. So in that sense there is that recognition of everything as being me. And in a way I can’t really say that there is a finding back to who I was. There isn’t something there then that moves out of the way and then something comes back. It’s like if there is a real and total dissolve happening of transparency of the personal, that personal which is standing in front of the wisdom itself which is standing in front of pure being, when that is dissolved, then there is nothing to come and go like that. Then there is just the wisdom. Being.
RA: Ok, so, just pressing you a little more on this, then this Tibetan Master, had a certain level of enlightenment, a certain degree of wisdom, a lot of knowledge and so on and you kind of were able to download that. And you said that these days, now, there is really no distinction. His wisdom, his consciousness is part and parcel of who you are and yet I’d imagine that this being and there are some others that we’re going to talk about. And yet I would presume, and correct me if I’m wrong, that this being, this Tibetan Master still retains his own autonomy and is still functioning, perhaps he’s even helping other people such as he, the way he helped you…
AS: Of course
RA: So, it’s not like he dissolved like a sugar cube put into some water
AS: Definitely not
RA: He retains his own autonomy. You retain yours, but somehow you have imbibed or incorporated his consciousness, his wisdom
AS: Yes, yes
RA: into your being. That’s an interesting phenomenon. Can you explain a little bit more about what that is or how that works or…?
AS: In a way you could say that that which normally is considered to be a separate self when the layers of that separate self gets to fall, when the limitation gets to be burned away, then it’s actually a recognition of that one being, because actually consciousness is consciousness and all knowledge is within consciousness.
AS: So thereby it’s like opening doors and doors deeper and deeper into ourself, into that knowledge which is the total knowledge of everything. So in the revelation of that there is the shaving down of everything which is not everything, you understand?
AS: Anything which is not everything, is that which is shaved thinner and thinner and thinner and that just becomes a revelation of source as the wisdom. In a way you could say despite the fact that there is a constant forging of keys which is going on, keys of consciousness, which is going on, which fits the times, going on through this being. At the same time, in a way you could say that I have, and I am absolutely nothing, in that sense, because the only thing that’s happening is the coming in of that total knowledge that has been accumulated through these wise beings over, through all the time that has been.
RA: So it’s interesting, because each of these wise beings could say what you just said that the totality, or the absolute, contains all knowledge, it’s the home of all knowledge, and that they are one with that and therefore have all knowledge and yet each one has his or her own individual expression and somehow each one, and there, several, we’re still going to talk about, served as a kind of a catalyst for you to maybe unfold a different dimension of total knowledge within the absolute, some such thing.
AS: In a way you can say that at this point in time, the potential, of that evolution of consciousness, it’s never been what it is now, that potential in terms of what can be unfolded as the very recognition of source through the human being.
RA: You mean for you, for all of us, for who?
AS: For everything, for everything.
RA: For everything? Ok.
AS: For consciousness itself.
RA: The potential has never been what it is now.
RA: So, in other words, we’re encountering a really unique, special time?
AS: Of course.
AS: But the unique special time has always been there, because this consciousness as it is now with the knowledge that it is now has never existed. In this way, the existence itself is constantly accumulating greater and greater knowledge about itself. So, when there is the work going on with so many people now, it’s because consciousness itself is ripe in terms of bringing the knowledge of itself home and that just opens up the door for so many people and it requires a forging of keys which fits the times, because the times right now they are very hardcore. And what I can see through this being is that that hardcoreness in terms of the extent of the clarity and the extent of the love that that comes together as a compassion, which fits the times.
RA: When you say the times are hardcore, do you mean like a lot of intensity in the world like ISIS and terrorists and all that kind of stuff. It’s really sort of a problematic time in some respects. Is that what you mean by hardcore? Or something else entirely?
AS: No, that’s. I’m talking deeper than that. Because what you’re talking about is just a reflection of whatever is going on, the reflection of the level of the misunderstanding, the level of the ignorance. But what I’m talking about is the extent of that ignorance, the extent of that darkness which is present and that which needs to give in, that which is standing in deep resistance to itself.
RA: So, I sort of get the sense you’re saying that the times are such that the rug is kind of being pulled out from under that deep resistance and that ignorance that it is on a very shaky ground, obviously this is something I’ve already thought about before, but that there’s a sort of an acceleration or a quickening of consciousness in the world which is causing entrenched ways of thinking and being to crumble.
AS: Isn’t that wonderful?
RA: Yay, it’s great. Very ex…Good time to be alive.
AS: Amazing time. Very interesting. Yeah, yeah. Definitely. Within that, it also requires, it’s like the level of the ignorance is also the level of the potential. So, that potential itself is waiting to come into its full expression by us taking full responsibility. But that responsibility needs to be taken, and that is where it requires some hard, when I say hardcore, I mean it requires some hard, some solid footwork inside of that.
RA: There’s this thing they call the Chinese curse which is “may you be born in interesting times.”
AS: Well, we all did that didn’t we? (Laughs)
RA: We’re hanging out up there “Ah, it’s kind of getting kind of boring.” Let’s go down and jump in with the fray. And then you say, “Later was 3 years of communing with Longchenpa (1308-1364, a major teacher of Dzogchen in Buddhism, exo- and esoteric transmission), which entailed 2 years of preparation in significant further purification of mind, before teaching could happen in 8 months of transmission, which also ended in a merging with [that] Master.” So, two years of preparation before further purification of mind before even teaching could happen, so what was that two years all about?
AS: It was about tearing down anything within my living life that could want anything. It was about meeting any angle on self, which could insist on love. In a way you could say that it was about wearing down the attachment to love and when I mean love I mean self.
RA: So, for two years you wore down the attachment to self? To love?
RA: to the individual self.
AS: No! To the Self. To God.
RA: Oh! So, if one is God ultimately, if one is the Self ultimately how can one be attached to it? I mean…
AS: Yeah, but that’s what I’m saying, that in that passing beyond existence there is a coming. It’s almost like when we realize self. I could call out the foreground. It’s a purification of consciousness that leaves consciousness. The discovery however is that there is consciousness and then there is pure awareness. Consciousness is conscious of something. Consciousness is conscious of itself. While the Pure Awareness which was the result of that emptying out, it was a dying of consciousness in terms of a dying of the experiencer and that in turn, that left a deep merging with the void, to absolutely nothing and a passing not just into life, which was the initial move, you know the dying to life, the dying into the flame, but actually a passing beyond life and beyond the flame which was a complete death into absolutely freaking nothing.
RA: Ok, so the way that you’re defining the words consciousness is already sort of a stirred-up value in which there’s some diversity conscious of something, but then pure awareness is more primordial than that. No diversity has yet emerged. But then pure awareness is more primordial than that. No diversity has yet emerged, no bifurcation, no manifestation has yet emerged. And so you’re talking about a phase where you kind of shifted from pure consciousness, which could be said to be self-realization, right? But…
AS: That’s what I would call it self-realization.
RA: Which many people would think is actually the ultimate, how can you go beyond self-realization? But you’re saying there is a deeper shift that can take place into something even more fundamental.
AS: Yeah, it’s like, the recognition, the self-realization, is an actualization of existence, existence itself. But what I’m saying is that the passing beyond that actually opened the door for nonexistence, opened a door for a total recognition, a merging into no-self, no-self, that which is prior to God.
RA: So, when you say, ok, so at the self-realization stage, pure consciousness stage you’re saying there is still a sense of self, this pure consciousness is myself, I am that. I’m repeating your words in order to see whether I’ve got it correctly. Then you’re saying that beyond that, more fundamental than that, there is no sense of personal identity or self whatsoever. Is that correct?
AS: Yeah, what happens often, is that’s there’s a falling into that, there’s a meeting with and a realization itself which can often turn into the god realization where many can be in that part of operating as the one life, as love. But on the other side of that, the recognition of the absolute as pure mind where it’s not just about the whole, the whole body and the whole body of the universe being recognized to be the body of me, the body of God. But where there’s actually a passing not only through the light, but into the darkness so that passing into the darkness, often it’s met, the nothing is met, and then there’s a return from that. But in my experience that meeting with nothing became a cultivation, which lasted a few years, a cultivation of that nothing which actually spread and turned the meeting with the nothing into a revelation of the primordial silence, which is a sweetness, which is even prior to the sweetness of life itself.
RA: Interesting. That’s beautifully put. So, when you’re say there’s a return from that, would that return be necessary in order for this to be a living reality because it seems to me that if there’s no sense of personal identity whatsoever, or falling into complete blackness, complete nothingness, then it would be hard to function in that state, unless one had somehow integrated it to some extent into more manifest levels.
AS: You could say a way that unless the body has come to a complete standstill, this that I’m talking about cannot have been realized. That period when all of the winds of life, all of the winds of the nervous system where they return to the source, it’s like a breaking through the very core of the head, and it’s like a flipping out of existence, or it’s not even a flipping out of existence, it’s a dying out of existence because it doesn’t leave an experiencer. When you say the word nothingness, it’s a big misunderstanding to call it nothingness because the moment that there is someone experiencing the void, it becomes nothingness, but when there’s a deep dying into the void, it’s just nothing. It’s not nothingness. It has no taste. It has no color. There is no experience of it. There’s just a complete disappearance beyond existence.
RA: Is there any recognition at the time that that is the reality or anything? Or could it not be because that would necessitate a recognizer, someone to actually say, “hey this is going on” and even that would be too active, too manifest, to fit what you’re talking about.
AS: It’s like the recognition of self, of pure life, of love, of god, that requires only a willingness to surrender into that which is greater than oneself. But to go out and burn that pile of million dollars that you have attained through that cultivation of self as greater and greater self ultimately resulting in that realization as god. To go out and burn god in the backyard is not something that the ego wants. And that means that that dedication to truth has to be 100% total. Because only there can there be a proper meeting and a proper dissolve beyond existence because it’s actually the same as the total meeting with death.
RA: So you said something about the body coming to a complete stand still. Are you talking about the kind of thing that you know yogis might attain where there’s the complete cessation of bodily activity when they’re going into deep Samadhi? Is that what you’re saying?…Ok.
RA: I also heard you…in something I was reading…you were talking about actual physiological transformation in the brain and in the head where you’re actually feeling all kinds of shifts, and pains and pops and openings.
RA: And kind of like…
AS: It’s also part of the existential, you know, the purification of consciousness.
AS: Where the head gets rewired and all of this.
RA: Um, hm.
AS: But I can say that even in the process of this there are physiological signs of that, which is like…It’s like a rewiring of the senses. Because there is someone living through the senses. There’s someone registering the hearing, the taste, the seeing. If everything is surrendered, then right there is not, then actually sound becomes just sound, there’s not any filter on it. There’s no someone hearing it and then it means, again and it’s a physiological thing as well.
RA: Sound is sound and there’s no one hearing it, but still if someone says, “Hey, please pass the salt.” The salt gets passed, because there is some kind of interpretation of that sound, right?
AS: Yeah. It’s a funny thing. It’s like after, in that death, in terms of that recognition of the void, the recognition of that primordial silence, that is the coming into the full wakefulness and it’s not wakeful of something and that’s why there is no experiencer, because it’s only the intensity of pure mind. It’s only wakefulness. It’s only pure awareness. Yeah, so the moment that consciousness happens that’s actually the happening of life, then life is the case, then God is the case. But through that dying, there is no…and this is why it so probably so rarely happens, is that the ego cannot want this, everything that the ego could ever attain by walking the spiritual path, anything that the ego could ever gain or anything in terms of coming into a greater realization of itself and the divine ego, everything goes. And in that there is a total trust that needs to happen. A total trust that even if I let go beyond existence, then life will reappear. And it seems that it did. (Both laugh)
RA: So the ego can’t want it because it’s going to mean the annihilation of the ego, and the ego doesn’t want it’s annihilation. But you’re saying that having taken that leap, then life reappears, I think that’s the way you put it. But then it must reappear in a way that is radically different than when you dove into it.
AS: It’s beyond the ability to manipulate life. Yeah, it’s beyond the me. It’s beyond the self. It’s like losing every bit and piece of the belief system. Normally there is a reduction of the belief system down to just believing in God. But right there, God remains, Self remains. But if that last piece of self, if that last piece of God also goes, then no belief remains. Then right there, it’s actually like, the balance point of all of this becomes, and the art of all of this becomes, the ability to let life live itself fully and in its full potential, to live itself strongly without believing in it. But it’s not like a someone pulled back from life. It’s more like the complete knowing that none of this is real and the fact of being able to deal with every bit and piece of what that means, all the way down on a human level. To be able to deal with the fact of meeting the reality of the true incarnation. Where actually god is coming into the body, can the conscious mind deal with that? Can the mind deal with the fact that all of this is bendable?
RA: Bendable you say?
AS: Bendable, yeah. Can every part of being acknowledge and be with the fact that reality is as great as it is?
RA: So, when you say belief system and then you also use bendable in the same little discussion. I get the sense that belief implies some rigidity, because you’re clinging onto something that…I mean if we’re experiencing something, if I say, “I believe I’m seeing my hand”. It’s absurd to say that because we’re experiencing it. But usually belief implies faith in something that we’re not actually experiencing. And people tend to be rigid about that sort of stuff. Oh, Allah is the only God, and Muhammad is his prophet. Or Jesus is the only way, or… You know, they’re believing in things rigidly because some book says it, or they’re…it makes them feel secure. But they’re rigid. And so what you’re saying is that a complete relinquishment of belief is… goes hand in hand with complete flexibility, or bendability.
AS: But I’m not, I’m not just talking about…When you talk about this or believing in this or believing in that. I’m talking about demolishing the belief system in a completely intimate way where whatever you believe in all the way down in the very subtle layers of your mind whatever is being taken, even by the bodily structure is understood to be real. Where does the body react as if what it’s experiencing is real? Where can theorize? Where can there be this rigidity coming in, in terms of closing down and believing in limitation?
RA: Uh, huh.
AS: So, in that sense, it’s like the complete demolition of the ability to fear.
RA: I’m following you. There’s a phrase in the Upanishads that says, “Certainly all fear is born of duality”. And it sounds to me like you’re talking about a going beyond duality in which one passes through a sort of sound barrier of fear and beyond fear and also a sound barrier of belief, where we’re clinging onto certain concepts and we have to relinquish those concepts in order to break through that sound barrier.
AS: Yeah, it seemed like there was a way through the individuality. That willingness to love oneself as that separate individual. That’s like the first step, where a lot of people get stuck. Then there’s the further on from that. The recognition of oneself as pure love, the realization as oneself as divine, as god, by the complete burning away of all of the limitation within the heart structure, within the sense of feeling, because that’s through where Being can be felt, not just seen, but felt. And then from there, there is a moving further in terms of the recognition of truth through mind itself and that becomes a full seeing, that becomes a full stepping into the clarity of oneself, not as god, but as nothing whatsoever. So, it’s the emergence of clarity itself as that diamond sharp clarity which is just awareness, from there again, then a further, coming back down into existence, as the very incarnation of that as the very merging between that light which at that point is permeating the cells and emanating through cells, but at the same time coming in as the very blackness of that void which is between the cells. And this, in my experience, is a coming in as something, completely organic, that’s the experience of it, the coming in as black light sort of into the body, that black light which is the result of the recognition of the light and the darkness and that coming together.
RA: If we take God to mean all-pervading intelligence which permeates every particle of creation from the smallest to the hugest and which seems to be orchestrating everything with perfect correlation and perfect synchrony. If we take God to mean something like that then what is your orientation to God now, because you’ve said several times something which seemed to go beyond god. How do you relate to God as I’ve just defined God?
AS: In that sense, you can say that my relation to god right now is that I am very, I’m experiencing a deeper and deeper coming in as that transparency which transcends the human being and yet makes everything human, giving it the human teachings, deeply human teachings. At the same time, there is an experience of, or no longer need to, rule out the fact of the human being in its separateness and from that level there is a relationship of deep devotion, a deep devotion to God, but from the level of my heart and that recognition, there is a seeing, my little human being, being in that devotion. At the same time there is a seeing from nowhere at all, a knowing, that clarity of just pure awareness, wherein everything is going on, so you could say that God is life in space and at that same time I could almost point down to that little Aisha body as being a vessel going down to the fact that this earth is the heart of the universe.
RA: Uh, nice. It’s interesting because sometimes non-duality that word has a rather dry connotation. Ah, you know, non-duality. There is no sense of devotion, or god, or love or anything else. It just, it just sounds like just flat oneness. And yet the great masters.
AS: Flat oneness…(Laughs)
RA: Well, you know, emptiness, you know, like a still ocean with no ripples on it or something…
AS: Uh, hm.
RA: And yet, all the great Advaita masters Shankara, Ramana, Nisargadatta, all the rest, seemed actually to have a very devotional element to their lives. And Shankara was famous for saying that “the intellect imagines duality for the sake of devotion”.
AS: If you want to see it, it’s like, in that recognition of everything and in the going beyond the identification with the body, there is nothing which needs to stick with the no-ripples. It doesn’t mean that the no-ripples is not the case. It’s just that part of being which is just no-ripples. But it doesn’t rule out the fact of allowing existence to be existence.
AS: And in allowing existence to be existence there is an invitation right there for the fact that, of the unending potential of the ever-ongoing deepening into a further transparency into source itself. And that’s where the human being, where if there is that invitation and that willingness to let the devotion be the case, because devotion can only happen from the smallest part of us.
RA: uh, huh.
AS: So that smallest part of us, which is the humanity, can be brought deeper and deeper into the reality of god itself, which is already existent in space. And right there, there is nothing which needs to be ruled out, because right there that invitation of that smallest is actually the very key to further, you know?
RA: Yeah, that’s beautiful. Uh, so ripples are allowed.
RA: Ripples are ok. So you know how it is when you’re lying in a bathtub and you’re lying really still for a long time, eventually you don’t feel the warmness of the water but then if you start moving around a little bit you start feeling the warmth. And so, it’s almost like, hey ripples are good because they stir up the bliss, you know, they stir up the devotion.
AS: Not only that, they also give. The fact is that there is from the human perspective all the way down in the human body. There is the option of a learning, of a bringing in reality, bringing in nothing, and letting nothing, that marriage between Shiva and Shakti, letting nothing and everything happen as the very birth of that human wisdom and it’s so infinitely beautiful, why would we want to pass on that? It’s like; it’s the very pinnacle of realization. That we can come into that humanity, because right there that’s the unfolding of the enjoyment body, and not only that it’s the birth of beauty, the birth of beauty happens right there, and it happens through something small and sweet as the human animal body.
RA: And why do we even exist as human beings if not for the possibility of something like this developing?
AS: Exactly but not only that. There is also the fact that when we’re doing this, we get to see perfection happening through our human body and it’s deeply satisfying. Not because, I mean it cannot be perceived from the conventionally thinking mind where there is “Ok then I get to be perfect”. Because it’s not about the perfection itself. It’s not about whatever realization you attain. It’s about the further. It’s always about the further and the further and the further. So right there, that rigging in the water, it’s not only about stirring up the bliss, it’s also about spotting where can further learning happen, where can more ignorance be burned out in terms of the coming together and the alignment of every aspect and every dimension of our realization.
RA: So, if someone were to say to you, “I’m pretty much done. I’ve realized everything there is to realize in terms of enlightenment, development of consciousness and so on. I’m just kind of resting in that now.
RA: And you know, the wagon is no longer being propelled it’s just sort of running down.” What would you say to them?
AS: I would say, “You’re a fucking liar”. (Both laugh)
RA: Either that or sincerely blocked off from a bigger possibility that they didn’t realize existed. I mean maybe they’re feeling that they’re honest in terms of their experience but maybe they don’t realize that maybe there is another infinite number of horizons yet to reach.
AS: The thing is that there is always a deeper in terms of allowing the learning, allowing the teaching, allowing reality and source to penetrate through our beings. In that sense from the experiential point of view, it can be that there is nothing more to get. Because that’s a reality. There is no one getting anything. But that doesn’t mean all the way down into the human perspective that there’s not a deep coming into that wisdom, which then allows that birth of truth. But in this sense, we cannot say that “Ok, you know I’m done.” Because as long as there are people around you, you’re not done. That is the reality of this, because you’re not a separate individual.
RA: Yeah, I mean also, think of these different masters you have learnt from, Padmasambhava and the rest. At one point, those were human beings living on earth, who theoretically might have said, “I’m done”. But didn’t say that. (Both laugh). You, know. And who have gone on to whatever state they’re in now and are interacting with people such as yourself and serving some kind of function on some level of reality on some level on the universe, who to my way of understanding must be extremely advanced souls, more advanced that we’re likely to find running around here on earth. So, and even for them, there are further horizons in terms of their evolution.
AS: It seems that there is a karma that needs to be completely burned off in the sense of us doing what we need to do here. But the moment that there is nothing left for us to do here, we won’t have the human body. Because evolution of consciousness will always continue and that means that the moment there is nothing more that we’re supposed to be passing on here in that moment, the evolution of consciousness, actually just, it just becomes a falling off of the body it seems, yeah, yeah. And that work it keeps on going.
RA: Yeah, but I mean the implication is that these guys have some sort of body, maybe celestial body. And they’re just functioning on some level. Helping to facilitate evolution of people on earth. That’s what I inferred from reading and hearing about your interaction with them. Right? Would you agree to that?
RA: Ok. So, is there anything else to be said about…I mean we skipped over several of the other ones, Yeshe Tsogyal, Padmasambhava and then I think his consort or his partner or something. You had similar interactions with those as you had with the ones we’ve already mentioned. Is there anything you’d like to bring out about these interactions?
AS: If anything I could say that that which happens in all of this, is that there is a happening of a greater and greater humility in terms of anything which can think it knows anything. I’ve had the fortunate destiny, apparently, of working quite closely with Yeshe Tsogyal for some years and at some point there was a flipping of her into this being. And that actually opened the door to Padmasambhava, but again I really like it that we don’t make too much out of this.
RA: Well, it can get all woo-woo and esoteric and all that stuff.
AS: Exactly. Exactly.
RA: But it has been your path.
AS: Yeah, yeah, it’s been a part of it.
RA: It’s been major, major for you.
AS: Yeah, yeah. When it comes to this Padmasambhava thing, I can say that even at this point, I say, “Even at this point”. I mean that which people call enlightenment it’s a graduation into the beginning into the evolution of consciousness.
AS: So, in that sense I’m a newbie. But there’s great learning going on from both Yeshe and Patma, still, ongoing.
RA: I love that perspective. And I love the humility bit. I mean that implies humility that you’re saying, “I’m a newbie” and that we’re all just beginners ultimately no matter how advanced we may be.
AS: It requires fear to attain a human body. Simply.
RA: Fear? Or courage?
AS: (Laughs) Both. (Laughs again)
RA: Yeah, I mean, it’s not an easy trip, you know?
AS: Yeah, I know. But the happening of fear has to be the case; otherwise the ego cannot exist on this plane. And if that’s the case, there’s no. It doesn’t seem to the option. There is the stepping in of masters here who come to do whatever they’re doing. And well, I don’t really want to go into that. There’s no need to that. But in terms of that which comes in and becomes human. That which comes out as, through the human flesh. And all of us, who have to go through processes, to attain the knowledge of deeper knowledge and then deeper knowledge and then further and further. All of that seems to happen through the existence of fear. Because it seems that the only thing that falls away is fear.
RA: Well, that kind of relates back to that quote I mentioned earlier, “all fear is born in duality”. I mean, it’s sort of like, if we’re in duality, then at the basis of that is fear.
RA: Right? And it’s sort of a goad, or a prod, a cattle prod. Well, it seems like it can be both an incentive and a deterrent, you know. Because there is this fundamental fear and we want to resolve that and not be based on fear. But on the other hand people often report an accentuation of fear as they move toward that threshold of going through fear and often they recoil from that threshold like “wow, I can’t go through that” and they retreat back into some false sense of security. So, now, I know you don’t want dwell on the woo-woo esoteric stuff.
RA: But I mean, you know, if we’re actually painting the full picture, this stuff is as real as anything else and it’s been extremely significant in your life and is now, still. And so, you also mentioned meetings with beings of different traditions, like Ramana Maharshi, Nisargadatta, Anandamayi Ma and intense communications with them and so on. It would seem like all of these characters that we revere, and respect and admire, have not disappeared entirely as some cosmologies would suggest that we do. You know, some say that it’s like a drop going into the ocean and you can no longer distinguish the drop from the ocean. It would seem that they all still have some subtle but active role to play in evolution of our planet. They’re serving some function still.
AS: Definitely (giggles).
AS: It’s a big mystery, isn’t it?
RA: Yeah. I think it’s fascinating. I don’t know. This kind of thing can seem irrelevant to a discussion like this. It can seem like an indulgence in esoteric speculation. But if it’s someone’s actual experience then I respect that. Or, at least, I give them the benefit of the doubt even while sometimes taking it with a, I always always take everything with a grain of salt.
RA: But in your case, not much salt, mostly benefit of the doubt, you know, because you really seem genuine in what you say. (Laughs).
AS: The thing is that it seems that whatever is going on here. If you want to see it like that, Aisha, or I could just say me, as a human being stepping into this word. By there, there is a really, really massive pull into a devotion of love itself. There is a big yearning of discovery into love itself, which just starts happening. From there you can say that the sat guru just took many forms. Because all of these beings were speaking to me through my own heart. How my own heart? Because through my own heart existence is realized. From there you can say that, ok all these beings have installed their software in this one and that also means that in this point in time through the work that I’m doing there is, despite that I’m not doing a single thing. There is many occurrences happening. There is a lot of shifting shape between all of the beings that I actually am in this having gulfed up these different bulks of consciousness and in a way you can say that it’s all about love and it’s all about that play of consciousness. So, it just appears like that. And in a way I can say Longchenpa. When does the flavor of Longchenpa appear? It’s when someone is ready to get the transmissions of pure mind.
AS: So what does that look like? It looks like. And again, everything is one to one. But when there is a readiness for that transmission, it comes through a punch through a brain in that meeting. At the same time, you can say that if someone is ready for the heart itself, ok, so what happens? it becomes an appearance as what? An appearance as pure love, an appearance as God, as pure light. But there is a big difference between the transmissions that occur. And right there you can say that, what I can refer to as the Black Mother, which is the coming together, it’s the mature love, it’s the love that’s not just love, light and bliss, but which has weight to it, which has depth, the opportunity of actually facilitating enlightenment, which has the option of actually going at the resistance and actually removing what needs to be removed and not just patting on the head and giving the love, and then be on your merry way, you know?
AS: So, it’s like that mature love, it’s not just healing what is here, it’s about also going so much into the depth where the black mother is operating herself as that black light and that black light it’s deeply intelligent because it’s not just handling itself as the sweetness and the softness. It’s all just got the very compassionate sword. When I say very compassionate, I mean that whatever needs to be cut down for the real blooming, the real blossoming of life to happen, sometimes that’s what’s called for. And then that coming together of the light and the darkness, is the birth of that black mother and that’s deeply connected to the gut, because right there’s not just love as in God, there is also the integrity of Earth itself, the integrity of…She’s like the grandma. Where the mother still has her sexual energy, the grandma is deeply settled and she is very warm, she can be very kind all of but if she needs to give a whooping she does that too.
AS: And then that just becomes a reflection of all of these masters and all of the knowledge that they have been inserting and still are inserting.
RA: Are new ones coming along? Or is it just the same bunch?
AS: Oh, at this point in time, it’s like the whole lineage of Padmasambhava, Yeshe, like the whole lineage of that knowledge, of deeply tantric knowledge which thereby doesn’t surpass the human being in anyway but deals with the sexual energy all the way down into it’s very house, into the very power of creation itself that it’s dealing with everything along the way up to the recognition of absolutely nothing and love on the way of that.
RA: It sounds like it’s mostly a Buddhist lineage.
AS: Yeah, it’s a funny thing. Because I’ve never really, I’ve never really studied Buddhism in this lifetime.
RA: Yeah, that might have been your orientation in the past.
AS: Yeah, it seems like it. (Laughs). Yeah. So, there’s been a lot of appearance of that specifically Buddhistic knowledge.
RA: Um, hm. It’s very interesting. So, to just reiterate a bit what you just said. You’ve been kind of imbibing different qualities from these different masters and kind of building a toolbox, so to speak, with different tools in it, which are applicable to different people in different situations, each master having contributed certain tools. It’s kind of reminiscent of, you know, the Hindu notion of there being, you know, one god head but then all these different gods which are sort of…
RA: different, the manifestation of different qualities of that one godhead.
RA: And when you say the black mother cutting with a sword, it sounds like Kali. You know, who is depicted with a ring, a necklace of skulls, which represents the egos that she’s kind of cut down
RA: with that sword.
AS: Or even better, Chhinnamasta, you know, because the truth is pointing every which way.
RA: I’m not familiar with Chhinnamasta. Is that a Buddhist uh?
AS: I think it’s a Hindu
RA: Oh, ok
AS: Hindu goddess. But anyway she has decapitated her own head as well. (Both laugh). She’s not just standing with the scimitar. She’s standing with the scimitar in one hand and her own head in another (laughs).
RA: Hu. So, uh, you’re teaching a retreat, you’ve just came from South Africa, and you’re coming to California in a couple of months, so you travel around a lot meeting with people. What actually happens when you are interacting with people? Do you just sit around and talk, and everybody just listens? Is what you’re saying actually pretty irrelevant and it’s mainly a transmission thing that is taking place in the room? So, what is the mechanics? Give people a sense of what they could expect if they went onto one of your retreats or something.
RA: There are some YouTube videos that people can watch, so.
AS: Yeah, you can watch some of the videos. The thing is that I have a million faces and whatever is necessary is that which happens. And that means that you can’t really expect anything. There’s no way that things are going on. Often it happens through the conversation. Sometimes people don’t speak, and that becomes, well, then Shakti starts pointing out that which needs to go on in the room by itself. Sometimes people speak up and it happens that way and it’s actually most fun that way when people are like cooperative (laughs). Not that it stops anything. But, and then there is, well, it just, it happens in so many ways, sometimes she, well, no, never mind, sometimes she jumps on people. No, it can happen in so many ways.
RA: Yeah, ok, so, in other words, you’re not stuck in a rut. It’s, uh…
AS: I have no way of doing anything that requires someone doing it. And I can only say that which is necessary happens.
RA: A person can go on five different retreats with you and each one might be kind of different.
AS: Every retreat is different. Yeah.
AS: I have this Retreat Program where, well, I take in the people who really know what they want, and then we go for a longer stretch of time. But, yeah, it’s possible to read more of that on the website.
RA: Ok, so in other words, when you give a, you have more advanced programs or retreats or something, which are open to those who are more dedicated or experienced, is that what you’re saying?
AS: Well, it’s not so much with the experience, but it’s very much about the dedication. Because it’s like if there’s a stepping in, it’s already going on in the satsangs and even in the smaller retreats, that ok, but if you come into that space, it’s like, it’s like agreeing to lose everything, it’s like agreeing to lose your ignorance, and in that, I, when it comes to the retreat program, I very much insist that I’m with people who are willing to take the responsibility for that.
RA: Uh, huh.
AS: Yeah, so that the transmissions come in somewhere where they can be held and can be carried out as the application of oneself as reality in life.
RA: Are you harsh with people? I mean you’re talking about cutting off heads.
RA: Some teachers are borderline abusive sometimes in interacting with students, I mean yelling at them. Or is that not your style?
AS: (Laughs). I have no style. That’s the funny part of it. I don’t think I’ve actually seen me yell at people yet.
RA: Yet? Ok. We’ll be…
AS: But I have. But in terms of the abusive and stuff. In a way you could say that it’s not possible for the conventional mind to understand what’s going on at a satsang. It’s like every movement of the body is in the process of recoding and rewiring consciousness. And that happens in various ways. So, if I’m sitting in front of someone and I can see that that someone is running in a circle. I can see how consciousness is moving and that button needs to be turned. But that which is keeping the button on that dashboard from being turned is an energy of, a habitual energy circling around itself. Sometimes that needs a straightness to come through it, you know. It’s just like bursting a bubble. That bursting a bubble is not necessarily pleasant.
RA: If you’re interacting with somebody like that and you see something that needs bursting or turning, how, what is the main way in which you actually do that? Is it I mean it’s like the words is like the tip of the iceberg and you’re using words, but primarily there are sort of subtler dimensions on which the work is being done?
AS: Completely. It’s like if you see all these different levels of existence and then it’s just like the calibrating, calibrating the being, and that needs to happen, but there has been a lot of purification of speech for instance, so the part of speaking becomes a great transmission, so some happens through, or actually I could say that the transmissions happen through that dimension of being where there is a readiness for it, but in most cases I can see that there is a working of transmission through every dimension of being at the same time. So, that can look like. Well, it can either be an appearance of great intensity, let’s call it like that. Or it can be a human appearance. But no matter what the appearance is, the transmission is that which is the core of the whole thing because that is actually what is pushing the ignorance out of the way. So right there you can say, what does this come down to? It comes down to, if there is a stepping in front, and there is a presentation of, well, agreeing to truth, then right there that’s the same as saying a willingness to lose your illusion. If there is that willingness then I don’t really care if there is resistance or if there is surrender. Again, I don’t take people in the Retreat Program who are in resistance. It doesn’t mean that the people on the Retreat Program doesn’t have fear in them. It just means, is there a willingness to surrender? Or is there not? If there is a willingness to surrender we can go a lot further, we can go a lot deeper. And also the transmissions become more and more, and deeper.
RA: How do you screen people to determine whether or not there’s going to be resistance?
AS: Well, I receive applications. It’s described online. But basically it’s like people write to me. But the moment they write, I can see who wrote it.
RA: Uh, huh.
AS: And in seeing who wrote it. And in seeing who wrote it, again, I also receive a picture. I just, then I just see the different levels of existence, and then I can more or less see if there is a, if there is an agreement with the totality of this being, because if there is somewhere in there where there’s a deep acknowledgement of for instance love, or a deep preference for space. Either of those and I can see that it’s covering over something else and then I don’t see the willingness to allow a penetration through all of the dimensions then right there then I know that that human being will be sitting there and be in resistance to receiving on these other levels of being. So, it comes down to very much, how far does that acknowledgement of the need to penetrate through all of the dimensions, how far does that go?
RA: Uh, and you can actually, you can determine all that from a written application?
AS: Well, I mean, I very much get the sense of whose writing. I see whose writing more or less. And then if I see there’s an agreement and I can see that it could be possible, then I take a 10-minute Skype meeting with them and then that kind of determines it. Because then I kind of see the whole shebang. Yeah.
RA: Uh, I see, you think I would qualify? (Both laugh)
AS: Well, start by coming to satsang.
RA: Yeah, so what kind of results do you get from people. Probably there are certain people who have been coming for years now. What sort of changes are you seeing in people? What degrees of awakening are they undergoing?
AS: I think you should ask them. But I would say that everyone changes. I haven’t ever had anyone in retreat who hasn’t had their life drastically altered by it.
AS: Which is also why I have this retreat program. And because I kind of…the transmission which is happening is… let’s call it valuable.
RA: It’s called what?
AS: Let’s call it valuable. The transmission, which is happening, is valuable. Because it’s not just like. I don’t just sit and then I am what I am. And people tap into what I am. And then they go back home and then after a week everything is back to the way it was before.
RA: Uh, huh.
AS: If there is the actual work going on where we confront that which is standing in the way then it is like a rewiring of consciousness. And when that happens there is nothing to return to. The ignorance that was there is burnt. And in that sense I take them into my energy body and that fire which is here it just burns everything. Not in one go of course. But as much as they can take.
RA: Yeah, but a significant chunk of it.
AS: So, as long as there is a willingness to then follow up on it in the living life, to allow the changes to happen, that’s basically what it comes down to, then, well, there is no limit to how far we can go, is there?
RA: So, how do they follow up, let’s say they go on a retreat and they’re not going to see you for six months, what do they do for six months to kind of keep the momentum going?
AS: You can say that they do like this. It’s like that which is moving out of the way makes it possible for them to listen deeper and then in that individual communication, right there, opens up the alley for ok so here and here and here, there can be like a work with this next so it’s almost like homework (laughs) except it’s not, you know. It’s more like where is there room for a deeper penetration, where can the purification of consciousness, how can that be best carried in now to support the totality of the roundness of being, because that’s very much what is happening. There’s a constant invitation to that roundness of being, which allows not just one single dimension to be penetrated, but a constant refining of that, of the human being in every part of its realization.
RA: Yeah, it seems like it would be a matter of keeping the willingness alive. So, once the fire has been lit it’ll continue to burn as long as you don’t throw water on it.
AS: It’s what we started out by saying with that step by step of that coming into the full dedication because to start out with it is about allowing that which is identified to come truly into, the tip of the iceberg needs to turn itself completely towards that dedication which allows the effortless, the full capacity to come into being.
RA: Ok, now I don’t want to end on a mundane note, but we’ve been talking about embodiment and fully embodying this profound reality in an individual, in a tiny human life, as you put it. In terms of your tiny human life, do you still have much of a life or do you just travel around and teach? Do you still interact with your son? Do you have a partner? I mean you go and visit parents? I mean, is there still all the normal human stuff going on with you or are you just totally…
AS: All of it.
RA: All of it?
AS: All of it, yeah. I’ve been working with my parents for quite a while. I worked with my mother for three years to tear down everything that was role-playing within that. In terms of my son, again, a tearing down the mother role in me and the meeting again about bringing all of the people in the living life into that soul connection where it’s about the happening of truth when we come together, so right there there’s been a constant willingness and a constant application of that birth of truth into every alley of being which hasn’t really reduced anything down to anything but in one way you can say there has been a complete reduction because there’s truth happening across everything. In the moment now, there has, uh, I have a partner and we’re very much working on the real unfoldment of the deep humanity, a deep coming into the human qualities. It’s fucking hard.
RA: Yeah, it must be a rather intense relationship.
AS: It’s very intense. But also, it’s so intelligent. It’s so intelligent to see how being when it’s reflected between man and woman who are both in that total willingness and that total dedication to truth when that willingness is there to let life work itself out, to let it hollow itself out. It’s just like two mirrors in front of each other reflecting endless universes.
RA: That must be incredibly evolutionary for the both of you.
AS: Oh, yeah, yeah, yeah. Amazing.
RA: Interesting. Well, congratulations on that.
AS: Thank you.
RA: All right, let’s conclude. This has really been a fascinating conversation. I think people are going to love this interview. I’ll be creating a page on batgap.com as I always do which will link to your website and anything relevant. As I mentioned in the beginning there’s a geographical teacher location page on BatGap now, which you’ll find under the past interviews menu and there you can search and find out what’s going on in your particular area. And also of course be linking to Aisha’s page and she lists her events there. You mentioned you’ll be coming to California pretty soon and you probably go all over the world all the time. More general points, this is an ongoing series of interviews, and there’ve been, I don’t know, 200 and 70 something of them now, so if you go to batgap.com you’ll see them categorized and organized in various ways. And you’ll also see a future interviews menu where the upcoming ones, which are scheduled, are listed. There’s an audio podcast of this in case you don’t feel like sitting and watching videos. You can subscribe on iTunes. You’ll see a menu for that. There’s a donate button, which we rely upon people clicking in order to be able to do this. There’s a place to sign up to notified by email each time an interview is posted. You’ll see that menu. So just go there. Check out all the menus and uh, enjoy. Thank you again, Aisha, for this. I’ve really enjoyed this. I know you’re in the middle of retreat. You probably have to go down to dinner and get back to your group.
AS: Back to satsang.
RA: Hopefully have chance for a snack. So, thanks a lot.
AS: Thank you, Rick. Bye.
RA: Bye, bye. The end