WEBVTT

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[Music]

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Rick Archer - Welcome to Buddha at the Gas Pump.

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My name is Rick Archer.

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Buddha at the Gas Pump is an ongoing series of conversations with spiritually awakening

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people.

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We've done nearly 700 of them now.

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If this is new to you and you'd like to check out previous ones, go to www.BatGap.com and

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look under the past interviews menu where you'll find them all organized in several

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different ways.

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This program is made possible through the support of appreciative listeners and viewers.

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So if you appreciate it and would like to help support it, there are PayPal buttons on

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the website and there's a page which explains some alternatives to PayPal.

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My guest today is Emily Castauter.

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Emily is in Sweden and she has written a book called All the King's Horses, which I read

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in its entirety and found quite fascinating.

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Emily has been working since 1995 full-time with empathic communication with other species,

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non-hierarchical riding and handling of horses, alternative treatments such as acupuncture,

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homeopathy, and herbal medicine.

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She's published three books on these subjects.

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She runs a school mainly with horses and other species for empathic interbeing.

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school is a farm that is a sanctuary for about 170 animals of different species, not to mention

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plants and surrounding nature. And most of those animals would have been euthanized if

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they hadn't ended up at Emily's school and farm. And as we go along here, some of you

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might be thinking, "Well, how is this relevant to the usual BatGap theme?" But as we go along,

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I think you're going to see that it's very relevant. And my impression of Emily in reading

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her book is that she kind of has a foot in a couple of different dimensions.

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She really is an interdimensional person, and you'll see what we mean by that again as we

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go along.

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And not only dimensions of consciousness, such as deep communicative abilities with animals

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and some other people, but also dimensions of time, because there's a whole theme in

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her book, which keeps popping up, about her dipping into the memories of some young girl

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who lived a long time ago. And I found that interesting. How did this all first start

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for you? How did you first start talking with animals? And what is it like to live with

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this ability?

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Well, for me, it started spontaneously as a kid. I grew up in a... I don't know how to

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use the right phrase here, but quite a destructive family situation. So I tried to stay away

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from home as much as possible and ended up in a stable, a riding school stable, and I

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lived in a city, so the stable and the horses were in the outskirts of the city, which was

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not a very good environment for horses. They were tied up in stalls, they were all the time

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in an indoor arena, basically being forced to do what people told them to do. And the

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riding lessons that you could get there was also about making the animals do as you told

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them, as it often is, even today. And when horses came to this riding school, they would

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gradually break down from all these limitations and become dull, apathetic, and go lame or

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And then one day there was a pony, a small red chestnut pony coming to this place.

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And she was so aggressive and no matter what people try to do to her, to make her, as they said, respect people.

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And it's interesting how we choose to use the term respect by hitting her and making her frightened.

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And she refused, she was just constantly fighting back.

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And if they tried to give her sweets or treats or whatever, she would just bite people and not take it.

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She had this, what I can see now, a very healthy sense of integrity, which she wasn't supposed to have because she was a horse, right?

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So, she wouldn't have a voice anyway.

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And something in her unbreakable spirit really fascinated me and it terrified me too, because I didn't know how to reach out to her.

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I could see that if you got close to her she would bite and kick and I was afraid of that.

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So I was standing outside of her stable and when I was standing outside of her stable,

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just looking at her in a sense of curiosity, I guess I've been thinking about this over and over,

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trying to what actually happened that day.

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I think what pulled me to her was a longing, a longing outside of, I was 11 years old,

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years old I wouldn't be able to phrase it

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but a longing to get out of my

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isolation of only being able to

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experience the world from my own

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perspective.

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Basically being locked up inside of my own

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emotions. There is

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a horse here that once explained that

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emotions is something we experience

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inside.

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Compassion is something we experience in

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the opening between

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individuals. So for as long as we are

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locked in we are also

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overwhelmed by all sorts of things and I guess I had an underlying yearning to get out of that state

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and I looked at this pony and she looked at me and I would say that the way we define ourselves

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would be through a knowledge of identity. I know my name, I know what I'm good at, I know where I

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was born and all of that becomes true because I keep repeating it like I keep weaving this web

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that becomes the story of myself and it becomes my only reality and in a way a kind of sanity

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because I know where I begin and end and when the other one begin and end but in this meeting

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for reasons I will probably never know this difference that this wall, this invisible wall

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between us was taken off and we ended up in the same sense of self or the same, I didn't believe

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that I was her, I knew that I was Emily, but we were sharing the same consciousness in that moment,

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which meant that I felt what she felt immediately, there was no time difference. Because in a

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conversation like we are having now, I will have to explain what I feel inside of me, because you

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wouldn't know that. So I have to find it, express it and send it over to you. And hopefully you will

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will be able to receive it and then you will do the same but we still have this

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gap between us and it was like this gap was taken away so what she felt sensed

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all of that would become one full experience that I would share in the

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moment it happened to her which means that she would also share exactly what I

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felt and experienced inside of her being so you could say that we become each

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other but we don't lose ourselves. When I've been thinking about it later I

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think it is an expansion of the self so that the idea of the self is no longer

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limited to only hold me as a concept. So in that way you couldn't really call it

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a conversation I guess. It's not telepathy to me because telepathy would

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be the same thing as talking but with thoughts but we are not tossing anything

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across this gap anymore. We are totally sharing it. Something happens with the

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concept of time. Remember Star Trek? They had the concept of mind melding. Yeah, they were

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onto something, right? So, when I experienced this with her, I felt this very, almost bottomless

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feeling of powerlessness. Because no matter how high she would scream, nobody would ever

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hear her and that sense of being

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isolated, you really can't reach the

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outside world because you're an object.

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When you're a horse you're not an equal,

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you're not valued as an equal

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living being, you're an object, you're a

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riding school horse, you're supposed to

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deliver something and if you can't

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deliver you're being switched to someone

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else, there is no real value in your

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essence of being and the sadness in that

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that was almost unbearable and it scared me. And that sense of shame and low self-confidence

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was also inside of me. So as the door opened to see her, I could also no longer escape

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from facing myself. So to me it was like a swinging door that goes both ways. You can't

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meet someone else unless you are totally open to be seen yourself. You can't hide behind

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something, you cannot control what comes out because it's your entire being that goes into

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that meeting.

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And after that, reality never really became normal again.

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It was like this door, it's like that with some experiences, even if you have to in spiritual

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life you have to keep repeating your practice because you all the time fall out of it, right?

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But still with that there are some things that happen that there's no turning back anymore,

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happened and it changed you for good. Yeah, you told me before we started recording that

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sometimes when you give talks people ask if you can turn this on and off.

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It's fascinating and I understand from the questions that people want the answer that

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you can turn it off because it would be less scary to open this door if you can go back to

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hiding again but of course you can't. Either you do feel what the other one feel or you don't.

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there is no turning off button, but there is the sense of integrity. It's like we can both speak

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English, so we can choose to talk to each other, we could choose not to, it's an option we have.

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And it's the same with this kind of a meeting. You choose to go in and out of it, but you don't

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close off the ability. So if I go to places where animals or other species suffer a lot,

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I have to choose for myself, what is the point in me going there? Is there a point in sharing the

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suffering? Will it help? Yeah, yeah. Or will I just be dragged into the suffering to the point

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of actually not being very helpful? And maybe it will prevent me to do some other things that I

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could be doing? Yeah. So, I would have to make that choice rather than choosing to turn it off,

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which I can't, obviously. Here's an interesting paragraph that I copied from your book. He said,

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But for a herd animal, like a horse, it's an improbable thought that someone would deliberately

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make a decision that is not based on the greater good of the entire herd, because that's the

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way horses behave among themselves, or which would in any way be harmful to the surrounding

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environment.

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If people's will is limited to simply achieving personal gain, the purpose becomes impossible

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to understand.

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And that seems to be the reason why so many horses and other herd animals, seen from our

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perspective, respond so well, quote unquote, to manipulation. They trust that what we want

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is in their best interest.

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Yeah, the whole idea of personal gain really becomes a question here, because we presume

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that everyone has that. Because in our isolation, I had the horses here explaining just recently

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that all different species experience this life differently, because we have different

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senses, we have different bodies. If you take all the variety of plants, trees, animals,

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it will all be very different, but we all relate to the same reality. It's like we are

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showing angles of that reality. While humans, we have something extra to that, which means

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that we are also an angle of that reality, but we also interpret what we experience,

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means that we experience it and then we have an opinion about what we experience.

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And that takes us away from the common reality and perhaps that gap that was

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lifted between me and this pony is somewhere there, which means that I can

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actually as a human being experience if I do something that is harmful for

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someone else, perhaps I will not feel that. Perhaps I can only feel what it

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does to me. If the horse jumps a fence and I enjoy that, I will immediately think that the horse

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enjoys it too because that's the only feeling I get. Because I don't really share the horse's

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experience. It's like if you started to cry, my mirror neurons would react to your tears and I

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would feel something. But that's not the same as me feeling what you actually go through inside.

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there is this difference. And if the self, like Juan Hors explained, if the self would be the

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combination of body and soul, the merging of body and soul, we tend to see that like a dot.

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But what if you would see it as a swelling balloon, so that the self is just what actually

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harbors the world inside of you. And then if you are a herd animal, it means that you will

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know yourself as a separate being with integrity, but you would also feel the others inside of

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of you, meaning that if another herd member is harmed in some way, you would feel that

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inside of you, which means that there would be no reason for you to harm another individual

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deliberately in that way, because you would feel it inside of you and you wouldn't get

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the sense of personal gain.

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Are you saying that that's the way horses tend to function ordinarily?

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It seems to be that way they function ordinarily.

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But they fight, right?

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I mean, they might bite each other, kick each other.

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Yeah, they do.

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But don't they feel what the other horse is feeling if they do that?

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They do.

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It's just if you're a horse being bitten by another horse, it doesn't feel like it does

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when they bite you and me because they have a different skin and a different body.

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But if you form your herds, because that was the question when I started to work with this,

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and my work is to go around and meet animals and try to figure out solutions to issues

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of all sorts of situations and people want to know who is the leader and I

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started to try to figure out who is the leader and I never got an answer. Well I

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got an answer but not to the leadership question. I got an answer describing

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every individual in the herd quite detailed with focus on what they're good

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at, what do they contribute with and in order to find out who you are and what

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you can contribute with, you have to test yourself, and you have to test yourself quite roughly.

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We know that. We know that our best friends are the ones that have really been through

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the toughest times with us and they stayed there. We've tested each other, perhaps not

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by pushing ourselves into walls, but we know that I know the strength of my friend because

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we went through something, and it seems to be the same for them.

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Yeah, here's something from your book, you say, "Horses confront one another in order

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to find out which one is most suited to each particular task.

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Different responsibilities horses serve in a herd might include defender, scout, caretaker,

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educator, and so on."

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So they kind of learn about themselves through this sort of friction or confrontation with

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each other, and then they naturally serve different functions.

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And there was a fascinating bit in your book where different horses would serve in the

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prime leadership role depending upon what the need was.

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Sometimes it would be looking for food, sometimes it would be defending the herd, you know, sometimes

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it would be educating the young or whatever.

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So, that was all very fascinating.

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Dr. Angela: Yeah, and I think also because humans seem to be the only species that truly

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relate to time as a linear experience, which means that we are comparing everything to everything

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else one by one.

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naturally we put them below and above each other, which means that we do add a sense of evaluation to that.

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If you have a non-linear time, that would be totally different, because then it's much easier to accept, it seems,

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that everything is constantly changing. So, you have someone who has a very good eyesight, perhaps, in the herd,

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but then the sun goes down and darkness comes, and then there is someone else who has better vision in dark.

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and so it goes on, someone dies, someone is born, someone is injured, they are constantly adapting

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to the situation. While we seem to seek leadership for the sake of having a leader,

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that seems to only work in a linear time frame where we experience personal gain.

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If you have a non-linear time and personal gain is no longer relevant since you feel what everyone

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else is feeling, then what is good for you and what is also adding to the greater good is no

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longer in conflict. It's like if you are a very good scout, meaning that you embody what is

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happening outside of the herd, that makes the room bigger. So the one who is a defender or whatever

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you choose to call them, they can also become better at what they do because we've raised the

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ceiling for that. We don't compete within the herd about the same position. And I think that is a huge

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difference to how we build our societies and how we miss out on so many resources because we don't

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we don't know where to put them right.

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And we push each other down in order to make a career,

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which is a waste of time in a way, if you think about it that way.

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Horses sound like the ideal communists,

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from each according to his ability, to each according to his need.

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Yeah.

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Except that there is no elite.

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Right, there's no elite, which there shouldn't have been in ideal communism either,

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but obviously there was, because human beings are screwed up.

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But do you think that humans could ever emulate horses and actually begin to function in a

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much more egalitarian way the way they do?

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I think we could.

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But I think the way to get there has to go through, and that's I guess where we meet,

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it has to go through a spiritual self-knowledge in a way.

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There is a point where it cannot only be psychological.

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What happened between me and this pony was more than anything a spiritual turning point,

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I think.

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There was a pony here describing the human being as, there was an image, because when

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I experienced this, it's an image with a full experience of it, feeling, sensation, you

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name it.

00:19:08.180 --> 00:19:12.980
So the image is of a human being standing and half of the person is black.

00:19:12.980 --> 00:19:15.600
And black is not a negative here.

00:19:15.600 --> 00:19:16.600
It's just black.

00:19:16.600 --> 00:19:22.880
means it's filled. It's the physical human being. And in order to fulfill our physical

00:19:22.880 --> 00:19:29.000
part of the self, we need to accept reality for what it is. We have to try to stop deceiving

00:19:29.000 --> 00:19:35.920
ourselves and make all these images and identities, right? And the other side that we long for

00:19:35.920 --> 00:19:41.720
and that we need as much as that is the invisible side, the other half that is white, and actually

00:19:41.720 --> 00:19:46.840
perhaps not white, but rather see-through, is our longing for all of these things that

00:19:46.840 --> 00:19:54.560
we cannot phrase, describe, the creator perhaps, the threads in between, the longing to fully

00:19:54.560 --> 00:19:59.020
experience this life because it's all we have no matter what we think or what theories we

00:19:59.020 --> 00:20:00.440
have.

00:20:00.440 --> 00:20:06.480
And then she described the role of the human being in this universe would be to be exactly

00:20:06.480 --> 00:20:12.200
in the middle between the physical and the spiritual, but we have misunderstood it so

00:20:12.200 --> 00:20:16.500
we don't put ourselves in the middle, we put ourselves in the center.

00:20:16.500 --> 00:20:22.480
And when we put ourselves in the center, then you have all the experience of the human ego

00:20:22.480 --> 00:20:25.560
and then we are totally locked in ourselves.

00:20:25.560 --> 00:20:31.640
So it seems when you follow spirituality described by animals, you all the time get to these parallel

00:20:31.640 --> 00:20:39.720
things. The self being an opening, an emptiness that is an opening that can contain the entire

00:20:39.720 --> 00:20:46.120
world, but we can only do that if we empty ourselves of ourselves, but not by getting

00:20:46.120 --> 00:20:51.000
rid of the self, because then there will be no one there to receive the world.

00:20:51.000 --> 00:20:53.000
Rick Right, so when you say not by getting rid

00:20:53.000 --> 00:20:58.520
of the self, you mean you can't be utterly devoid of a sense of personhood or individuality

00:20:58.520 --> 00:21:01.240
that has to be at least some remnant of that in order to…

00:21:01.240 --> 00:21:08.280
Yes, and that personality or essence, they would describe it as when body and soul merge,

00:21:08.280 --> 00:21:14.320
something totally unique is being created because nothing that is born is ever the same again,

00:21:14.320 --> 00:21:19.720
not totally. Whether you're a plant coming out of a seed or a human being born or a chicken

00:21:19.720 --> 00:21:25.480
coming out of an egg, you are unique and your interpretation of that life will only happen

00:21:25.480 --> 00:21:30.320
once. So, the personality is a celebration of this life. It's not something we should

00:21:30.320 --> 00:21:36.880
get rid of. But when we build an identity in that, that is something different because

00:21:36.880 --> 00:21:43.280
then the emptiness is no longer an opening, then the emptiness actually is empty and there

00:21:43.280 --> 00:21:49.700
is no space for anything in it. So the ego would perhaps then be the person we create

00:21:49.700 --> 00:21:54.940
in order to fit into this world. They would describe it as the self in order for us to

00:21:54.940 --> 00:21:59.620
really become who we are in this and

00:21:59.620 --> 00:22:01.620
contribute in this life. We need to be

00:22:01.620 --> 00:22:03.980
seen, we need to be met by other

00:22:03.980 --> 00:22:07.100
individuals, we need to be mirrored by the

00:22:07.100 --> 00:22:10.580
life we come into. But if the people who

00:22:10.580 --> 00:22:13.540
receive us, our family, anyone around us

00:22:13.540 --> 00:22:16.260
can't see who we really are underneath

00:22:16.260 --> 00:22:19.180
and meet us in that true point of

00:22:19.180 --> 00:22:21.100
ourselves, then we will start creating what

00:22:21.100 --> 00:22:22.820
the world wants us to be because

00:22:21.100 --> 00:22:26.620
otherwise we can't see how we would ever survive. And the person we create in order to survive

00:22:26.620 --> 00:22:33.340
becomes the ego, who is constantly dying, because there is no connection between the ego and the soul.

00:22:33.340 --> 00:22:40.300
So the soul has no sense of eternity and is struggling to survive by the minute and needs

00:22:40.300 --> 00:22:47.660
constant food, which you can see we consume this planet, we eat ourselves through this planet,

00:22:47.660 --> 00:22:53.740
like no other species does, because the need of the ego to survive is endless. While the self

00:22:53.740 --> 00:23:03.100
only wants to get closer to life, the self is looking for a relation to life, not the confirmation.

00:23:03.100 --> 00:23:08.700
- This is great, Emily. I love the way you speak. What you're saying just now reminds me of a quote

00:23:08.700 --> 00:23:12.620
I lifted from your book, which is that only by living your life to the fullest is it possible

00:23:12.620 --> 00:23:18.300
to reach beyond physical existence. The way to eternity goes through the heart, the place where

00:23:18.300 --> 00:23:23.020
the body and consciousness meet. And what you're saying about ego, there's a lot of people in

00:23:23.020 --> 00:23:29.100
spiritual circles talk about eradicating the ego and there being absolutely no person and

00:23:29.100 --> 00:23:33.740
and so on and so forth and I always recoil against that. I'm more aligned with what you

00:23:33.740 --> 00:23:42.460
are saying which is that the ego has usurped its proper role and has become bloated and exaggerated

00:23:42.460 --> 00:23:48.220
and is thereby causing a whole lot of trouble, but you can't utterly live without it. It just has to

00:23:48.220 --> 00:23:54.460
be relegated to its proper role, which is kind of like in the back seat in a way, while the self or

00:23:54.460 --> 00:23:59.500
the higher consciousness drives the car. Yes, and by constant practice, I guess,

00:23:59.500 --> 00:24:06.860
because what happens is that the ego will creep up. We will never finish in our practice. It's

00:24:06.860 --> 00:24:12.460
every morning, every day, we will forget as we practice. I remember when I was working in Jordan

00:24:12.460 --> 00:24:17.660
and they have different stable managers and at this particular time it was a very religious man

00:24:17.660 --> 00:24:23.900
and very true to himself in how he followed that path. I really admired him for that and he had

00:24:23.900 --> 00:24:27.900
everything in order all the time and I admire that too because my life tends to be very messy

00:24:27.900 --> 00:24:34.140
and he was sitting in his office and on that day his hair was standing out and his desk was

00:24:34.140 --> 00:24:38.380
really not looking like it usually did. So I thought there must have been some accidents. It's like,

00:24:38.380 --> 00:24:43.820
what happened to you today? And he said, Well, Emily, you know, the ego, the ego, it's every

00:24:43.820 --> 00:24:50.300
minute. It's every minute of every day. And it was really helpful for me to see that even this man who

00:24:50.300 --> 00:24:58.380
was so disciplined in his practice, his struggle was just like mine. It's very refreshing in a way.

00:24:58.380 --> 00:25:03.580
Constant vigilance is necessary. Yes, this teacher named Papa G and someone once asked him,

00:25:03.580 --> 00:25:07.100
do you have to continue to be vigilant? And he said, "Till my dying breath."

00:25:07.100 --> 00:25:12.940
It reminds me of an article that I just listened to and read twice recently by a fellow I interviewed

00:25:12.940 --> 00:25:18.380
about 10 years ago named Jerry Freeman. And the article is called "Why There Are No Perfect

00:25:18.380 --> 00:25:23.660
Teachers." And it's fresh in my mind. I think I'm going to go and I'm going to create a link to that

00:25:23.660 --> 00:25:29.260
on Jerry Freeman's BatGap page. So if anyone would like to read that article, go to Jerry Freeman on

00:25:29.260 --> 00:25:33.260
BatGap and you'll see a link. I'm going to put it there after this interview. But anyway, Jerry

00:25:33.260 --> 00:25:40.140
talking a lot about this and how it's necessary to have some vestige of ego or sense of personal

00:25:40.140 --> 00:25:46.540
self in order to function as long as we're alive, but how it gets out of whack and oversteps its

00:25:46.540 --> 00:25:51.260
normal processes and becomes too dominant and that's what's caused us so much trouble.

00:25:51.260 --> 00:25:55.900
But he also talks about how there can be spiritual awakening to quite a profound degree,

00:25:55.900 --> 00:26:01.420
but a whole lot of stuff that we haven't worked out yet. And so we should never consider ourselves

00:26:01.420 --> 00:26:05.020
to be finished, we should also always consider ourselves to be a work in progress.

00:26:05.020 --> 00:26:09.420
Dr. Anna Deneen Yes, and also, what I find the more I work

00:26:09.420 --> 00:26:15.460
with animals from this aspect is that they often come to describe how important it is,

00:26:15.460 --> 00:26:21.580
and it's like you say, to be able to differentiate between what is eternal and what is tangible

00:26:21.580 --> 00:26:23.220
and changeable.

00:26:23.220 --> 00:26:29.740
And the only eternal thing would be basically the possibility of life, meaning the essence

00:26:29.740 --> 00:26:36.120
of the soul, the possibility of breath coming into materia which then creates life, everything

00:26:36.120 --> 00:26:41.660
else is basically tangible. When humans talk about that subject, again because we evaluate

00:26:41.660 --> 00:26:46.620
things all the time, we tend to like the eternal a little bit more. It's like it has a better

00:26:46.620 --> 00:26:52.660
value because it's lasting and the other things are not lasting so they're perhaps not as valuable.

00:26:52.660 --> 00:26:55.740
But when you discuss this with animals, they seem to be the other way around. You have to

00:26:55.740 --> 00:27:01.180
figure out the difference so that your starting point is in the eternal. It's like you say,

00:27:01.180 --> 00:27:06.620
your starting point, your identification with who you are shouldn't be in the tangible because it's

00:27:06.620 --> 00:27:12.540
very scary and very confusing because it's nothing to hold on to. If you have something to hold on to

00:27:12.540 --> 00:27:17.500
that helps and the only thing you can hold on to is the soul basically. But apart from that,

00:27:17.500 --> 00:27:24.300
they love the tangible because that's all we have. If you only have this short lifetime,

00:27:24.300 --> 00:27:27.100
Why don't you just dive into it and experience it?

00:27:27.100 --> 00:27:32.700
Another difference is people all the time look for the meaning of life and animals

00:27:32.700 --> 00:27:35.740
and other species, they seem to almost get offended by it. It's like,

00:27:35.740 --> 00:27:41.580
you want something outside of this? Is this not enough for you? You want another meaning outside

00:27:41.580 --> 00:27:47.340
of that this life is even possible? What I would say animals that are completely awake,

00:27:47.340 --> 00:27:52.380
like they've gone through spiritual awakening, like humans tend to think that only humans do,

00:27:53.020 --> 00:27:59.100
they can also describe that forgetfulness as a gift. The fact that perhaps you are born again

00:27:59.100 --> 00:28:04.540
and you forget all about it, or most about it anyway, it puts you into a situation that you

00:28:04.540 --> 00:28:10.780
can rediscover life, you can rediscover God. It's this love of the physical life that I

00:28:10.780 --> 00:28:18.700
find very refreshing because to me some spiritual practices with humans is turning away from life.

00:28:18.700 --> 00:28:23.100
It's like we want to be finished, we want to stop the cycling.

00:28:23.100 --> 00:28:27.700
But I meet enlightened individuals of other species that jump straight back into life.

00:28:27.700 --> 00:28:32.300
I remember one horse, when he was dying, I was with him when he was dying,

00:28:32.300 --> 00:28:34.800
and he was just longing to get another body.

00:28:34.800 --> 00:28:39.300
He was hoping to get another body and he was like, "I don't care what you give me.

00:28:39.300 --> 00:28:45.200
If it's a short or a long life, if it's hardship or easy, I just want to get in there again."

00:28:45.200 --> 00:28:50.720
and it's this love for existence. I miss that sometimes in the human concepts.

00:28:50.720 --> 00:28:56.960
Rick: Interesting. Since this article by Jerry Freeman is fresh in my mind, there's a point in

00:28:56.960 --> 00:29:01.360
it that relates to what you were just saying, which is that in the Brahma Sutras it's discussed

00:29:01.360 --> 00:29:05.040
that there's a thing called "leysa vidya," which means "faint remains of ignorance,"

00:29:05.040 --> 00:29:11.600
and it's discussed that the ignorance which remains is actually a tool for greater enlightenment,

00:29:11.600 --> 00:29:16.520
And even in unity consciousness, it can be broken into pieces and those pieces become

00:29:16.520 --> 00:29:23.120
the means or the fuel through which Brahman, a greater reality, is realized.

00:29:23.120 --> 00:29:27.740
So life is not some mistake that the whole universe has somehow fallen into and we should

00:29:27.740 --> 00:29:30.620
just get out of and be rid of as quickly as possible.

00:29:30.620 --> 00:29:38.720
It's a tremendous opportunity, like you say, and there's an unimaginable scope of possibility

00:29:38.720 --> 00:29:45.000
which can be realized if we just engage in the game from the proper perspective and not

00:29:45.000 --> 00:29:47.040
try to just escape from it, ASAP.

00:29:47.040 --> 00:29:51.840
Yeah, and see it as something like a riddle that we are meant to solve, and then we've

00:29:51.840 --> 00:29:54.360
solved it, and then what?

00:29:54.360 --> 00:29:57.040
Right, keeps on going.

00:29:57.040 --> 00:30:00.640
So there's a couple of themes here that come up again, that your whole teaching in your

00:30:00.640 --> 00:30:04.120
book is based upon, that I want to explore with you.

00:30:04.120 --> 00:30:09.140
One is the idea that animals can get enlightened because I have this bias going back decades

00:30:09.140 --> 00:30:13.880
that they can't, and I'm willing and eager to re-examine that.

00:30:13.880 --> 00:30:20.280
And another is just the sophistication of some of these animals' thought processes that you

00:30:20.280 --> 00:30:22.280
communicate with.

00:30:22.280 --> 00:30:25.640
In some of the passages in your book, they were saying things that I had to really put

00:30:25.640 --> 00:30:30.560
on my thinking cap to understand what they were saying, these philosophical insights

00:30:30.560 --> 00:30:31.560
and everything.

00:30:31.560 --> 00:30:32.560
And I think, "Okay, wait a minute.

00:30:32.560 --> 00:30:38.320
Now, horses and other animals don't even have a prefrontal cortex, which we're told is that

00:30:38.320 --> 00:30:43.500
tool that enables humans to think in sophisticated ways that other animals don't have.

00:30:43.500 --> 00:30:46.180
And so how are they thinking these thoughts?

00:30:46.180 --> 00:30:52.420
And is it because it's the higher self of the animal that has all this wisdom and somehow

00:30:52.420 --> 00:30:58.880
they don't have the neurophysiology to articulate it, which we do, but that doesn't mean they

00:30:58.880 --> 00:31:01.960
don't have access to that kind of wisdom.

00:31:01.960 --> 00:31:04.480
I've asked myself all these questions too.

00:31:04.480 --> 00:31:10.440
I started off believing that humans are the only ones with an abstract ability to think.

00:31:10.440 --> 00:31:15.660
And every time I think I know something, I'm being proven wrong.

00:31:15.660 --> 00:31:19.720
So I guess that will continue also beyond this interview, of course.

00:31:19.720 --> 00:31:23.920
But I guess it's where we put the consciousness.

00:31:23.920 --> 00:31:29.120
And some animals describe the consciousness as the bridge between the physical existence

00:31:29.120 --> 00:31:35.440
and the soul, the possibility for materia to become aware of itself.

00:31:35.440 --> 00:31:38.500
If it is so, we just play with that thought.

00:31:38.500 --> 00:31:44.300
If that is so, then perhaps everything that is alive knows that it's alive.

00:31:44.300 --> 00:31:49.800
If being alive means that soul has entered materia, and that can only happen if there

00:31:49.800 --> 00:31:55.000
is consciousness connecting them, that could possibly mean that everything that is alive

00:31:55.000 --> 00:32:02.440
knows that it's alive, which means that we have a conscious expression of our experience of life

00:32:02.440 --> 00:32:09.240
constantly, no matter what we are. But I think as humans, what we have done with our gap and

00:32:09.240 --> 00:32:14.760
our personal gain and all of the things we discussed in the beginning, is that we are doing

00:32:14.760 --> 00:32:20.920
what we've also done to other human beings. We take away their person, we depersonalize them,

00:32:21.480 --> 00:32:26.440
and then we take what we want. So, if black people don't feel anything, then we can use them as

00:32:26.440 --> 00:32:30.680
slaves, right? I mean, we believe that the children couldn't feel pain not long ago.

00:32:30.680 --> 00:32:36.520
Yeah, sure. I think it was Descartes who popularized the notion that animals are just machines and they

00:32:36.520 --> 00:32:40.680
don't even have consciousness and they don't feel pain and the noises they make if we caught

00:32:40.680 --> 00:32:44.760
inflict pain upon them are just some like mechanical thing going on.

00:32:44.760 --> 00:32:49.480
That makes it easier for us to take what we want. If our ego needs constant food,

00:32:49.480 --> 00:32:54.760
that's a way of doing it, right? Yeah, I mean the Nazis and also like in the conflict in Rwanda,

00:32:54.760 --> 00:32:59.640
they were referring to people as cockroaches, so you can do whatever you want because it's just

00:32:59.640 --> 00:33:05.400
like a cockroach. Yeah, and the scary thing is that we are able to do that to ourselves. So,

00:33:05.400 --> 00:33:14.200
I guess the way back is to again meet everyone in person. It's like, okay, this tree is a person,

00:33:14.200 --> 00:33:21.080
this tuft of grass is a person, it's not a human, but it is someone. And perhaps that someone doesn't

00:33:21.080 --> 00:33:27.640
have a nervous system like the tree. It doesn't mean that the tree's experience of life is limited.

00:33:27.640 --> 00:33:35.400
The experience can be deeply philosophical, devoted, and religious, but the tree would not be able to

00:33:35.400 --> 00:33:41.080
phrase it because the tree wouldn't have the need to phrase it because the tree constantly is in this

00:33:41.080 --> 00:33:47.040
experience, most likely in connection to other trees and where do one tree begin and how

00:33:47.040 --> 00:33:51.720
is the soul and consciousness in plants? That's another fascinating question. If you let a

00:33:51.720 --> 00:33:56.080
seed down and that seed's become another tree, from which point are the two of you being

00:33:56.080 --> 00:34:02.880
isolated? Is it different souls in these two trees? Or is it different consciousness? Or

00:34:02.880 --> 00:34:04.120
is even the question relevant?

00:34:04.120 --> 00:34:09.800
Well, my guess is that there would be different souls superficially and one soul fundamentally,

00:34:09.800 --> 00:34:14.380
the way on the ocean you have different waves superficially, but it's all really the same

00:34:14.380 --> 00:34:15.960
ocean if you go a little deeper.

00:34:15.960 --> 00:34:16.960
Yeah.

00:34:16.960 --> 00:34:19.820
We have this common consciousness and we have the individual and we have the individual

00:34:19.820 --> 00:34:25.120
person that could experience all these things that are written about in this book.

00:34:25.120 --> 00:34:32.560
I am the one putting words on it to the experience of sharing that instant now with another species.

00:34:32.560 --> 00:34:35.220
And then of course it's like a conversation between you and me.

00:34:35.220 --> 00:34:39.540
meet tonight because we are very

00:34:39.540 --> 00:34:41.380
interested in spiritual philosophical

00:34:41.380 --> 00:34:42.500
questions. Naturally, when we talk to

00:34:42.500 --> 00:34:45.780
each other, that's what we're going to

00:34:45.780 --> 00:34:47.700
talk about, even if it wasn't a job.

00:34:47.700 --> 00:34:48.980
And it's the same with me and the tree

00:34:48.980 --> 00:34:51.700
because I am so

00:34:51.700 --> 00:34:52.580
interested in life and existence and

00:34:52.580 --> 00:34:54.660
spiritual

00:34:54.660 --> 00:34:56.500
matters and human and all of these

00:34:56.500 --> 00:34:59.060
things. That will come up in the

00:34:59.060 --> 00:35:01.460
conversation, most likely.

00:35:01.460 --> 00:35:03.380
Of course, not every animal or plant is

00:35:01.460 --> 00:35:05.140
interested in what I'm interested in,

00:35:05.140 --> 00:35:07.340
but sometimes you meet a kindred

00:35:07.340 --> 00:35:10.260
spirit and regardless of what species

00:35:10.260 --> 00:35:12.940
that is, there will be creativity in that

00:35:12.940 --> 00:35:14.900
meeting point. There are horses in the

00:35:14.900 --> 00:35:16.820
herd that, for lack of a better word,

00:35:16.820 --> 00:35:18.580
because I know that the minute you put a

00:35:18.580 --> 00:35:21.140
word on someone's role in the herd, you've

00:35:21.140 --> 00:35:22.820
fixated it and it's not good because you

00:35:22.820 --> 00:35:25.180
create an identity and it's not what we

00:35:25.180 --> 00:35:27.780
want, but I tend to call them memory

00:35:27.780 --> 00:35:31.100
carriers. I met them at first in

00:35:27.780 --> 00:35:32.660
Jordan where an old mare was close to pass over to the other side and she was

00:35:32.660 --> 00:35:36.820
sharing her time with another mare and they were passing on something and I

00:35:36.820 --> 00:35:42.460
thought that the memory carrier knowing the history of her herd and her species

00:35:42.460 --> 00:35:47.580
kept all that in her mind and that she had to teach the other horse all of

00:35:47.580 --> 00:35:51.380
these things so the other horse would also remember it and they tried to

00:35:51.380 --> 00:35:57.260
explain to me that the stories only appear in the moment of sharing. It's not

00:35:57.260 --> 00:36:02.860
that an individual continuously remembers them like a computer. They only become alive when

00:36:02.860 --> 00:36:10.500
we truly meet each other. So who does the story belong to if I meet a tree and experience

00:36:10.500 --> 00:36:16.420
this deep philosophical conversation? Was it in the tree before and recorded into me

00:36:16.420 --> 00:36:22.300
or did it happen because we met? Because something happens when our consciousness are meeting

00:36:22.300 --> 00:36:29.900
in the same point. But I think the need to put it into an explanation, that would be a human

00:36:29.900 --> 00:36:34.880
need. That is no need for the tree. But I believe that the tree still experienced something

00:36:34.880 --> 00:36:39.340
very valuable in the moment of sharing. Not in the explanation.

00:36:39.340 --> 00:36:43.660
If I meet somebody that I went to high school with, we might all of a sudden start having

00:36:43.660 --> 00:36:47.840
all these discussions about things we experienced in high school, which both of us have forgotten

00:36:47.840 --> 00:36:52.600
about for 50 something years. Is that what you're saying? But then those memories come

00:36:52.600 --> 00:36:55.160
up because it's relevant to our particular interaction.

00:36:55.160 --> 00:37:02.160
Yes, I guess it could be like that. Yes, definitely. Because we cross paths and I have a pony at

00:37:02.160 --> 00:37:09.600
home and she describes time as yarn, but not put together neatly. It's a mess, like a completely

00:37:09.600 --> 00:37:15.640
messy, yes, a tangled, messy yarn. Because time, when we think about it as parallel,

00:37:15.640 --> 00:37:21.240
tend to think like these neat little lines, as if we would stack books on top of each other.

00:37:21.240 --> 00:37:28.360
So that's not how time acts. It comes and goes and it meets, it keeps meeting itself in all these

00:37:28.360 --> 00:37:35.080
variety of angles. There is a chronological time represented by the thread itself, but the way it

00:37:35.080 --> 00:37:42.680
meets itself is actually totally irregular. I like that thought because it means that we are not just

00:37:42.680 --> 00:37:48.840
sort of puppets controlled by destiny, it matters what we do when we enter time and we have choices,

00:37:48.840 --> 00:37:55.160
but it seems like all other species have it too and we're missing out because for some reason we

00:37:55.160 --> 00:38:03.000
believe that we are the only ones that go through these developments. We seem to be the most isolated

00:38:03.000 --> 00:38:10.840
species in the sense that we create an identity that is very clear. It's like for me as a human

00:38:10.840 --> 00:38:14.920
being, it's very obvious when I am dead and when I am alive. There's no doubt about that.

00:38:14.920 --> 00:38:20.920
You weren't born, but one minute later you are, and you are alive and then you're not. And for

00:38:20.920 --> 00:38:28.200
other species, it seems to be a lot more floating. How you come and go, what your identity is. It's

00:38:28.200 --> 00:38:37.480
like, yes, it's I identify with myself, but I also carry the herd. If I am a plant and I decay,

00:38:37.480 --> 00:38:43.960
I die partly, perhaps, and my body turn into something else, and I am aware of that.

00:38:43.960 --> 00:38:52.280
So, I think in our isolation, we miss out on so many dimensions of life. To me, the spiritual path

00:38:52.280 --> 00:38:59.960
is more about being able to truly appreciate this life, more than reaching something outside of it,

00:38:59.960 --> 00:39:06.200
really, because we are already in constant, we live inside of the Creator in a way.

00:39:06.200 --> 00:39:11.920
Yeah, I was a student of a famous spiritual teacher and one time he said, "Every day

00:39:11.920 --> 00:39:12.920
is life.

00:39:12.920 --> 00:39:15.920
Don't pass over the present for some glorious future."

00:39:15.920 --> 00:39:16.920
Yeah, yeah, exactly.

00:39:16.920 --> 00:39:21.480
So what you're saying then about plants and animals, if I've interpreted it correctly,

00:39:21.480 --> 00:39:27.640
is that they're more tuned into the collective, first of all, of their herd, of their species,

00:39:27.640 --> 00:39:33.080
of the forest or whatever, and also they're more tuned into that level of life which is

00:39:33.080 --> 00:39:39.360
more fundamental than the comings and goings of individual bodies, so that the death of

00:39:39.360 --> 00:39:45.200
the body is not as big a deal to them as it is to someone who is tightly identified with

00:39:45.200 --> 00:39:48.880
their individuality and unaware of the more universal nature.

00:39:48.880 --> 00:39:54.200
It seems to be like that. It seems to, for us, perhaps not our opinion of death, but

00:39:54.200 --> 00:39:58.680
our fear of dying, is that it's a kind of extinction to us.

00:39:58.680 --> 00:40:02.200
Yeah, people feel that, because they think, "This is what I am. I'm nothing more than

00:40:02.200 --> 00:40:08.360
and this dies undone. Yeah, and everything is done because there is nothing that can no longer relate

00:40:08.360 --> 00:40:14.680
to anything. So it's the end of all things in a way. But if you are aware of the cycle of the body,

00:40:14.680 --> 00:40:19.880
because I mean, the body will incarnate as well. I mean, it's the same molecules creating another

00:40:19.880 --> 00:40:26.040
body. We actually have molecules and atoms in our bodies that were in Jesus's body and Buddha's body

00:40:26.040 --> 00:40:32.600
and we're very grateful for those. Yeah, but not necessarily Elvis Presley because he was too recent.

00:40:32.600 --> 00:40:39.240
So, there hasn't been time for the molecules to circulate around. Yeah, that's a gift for someone else.

00:40:39.240 --> 00:40:49.320
But also, it seems to me that the experience of life itself, to us, death is outside of life,

00:40:49.320 --> 00:40:54.120
because it is outside of time. And animals seems to agree that death is outside of time. I mean,

00:40:54.120 --> 00:41:00.120
they taught me that, it's not my idea, but it's not the end of the journey to them.

00:41:00.120 --> 00:41:05.720
Nor is it for us, but we just don't realize it, a lot of us. Now, this thing about hierarchies,

00:41:05.720 --> 00:41:11.160
I want to see if I can get you to agree that there are hierarchies, but there aren't hierarchies. And

00:41:11.160 --> 00:41:16.920
let me explain what I mean by that. But let's say one of your horses has intestinal parasites,

00:41:16.920 --> 00:41:22.280
so you give it ivermectin or whatever is used to treat intestinal parasites, and your intention is

00:41:22.280 --> 00:41:27.280
to kill the parasites, because you consider the horse to be more valuable than the parasites

00:41:27.280 --> 00:41:32.800
which are living in its intestines. So there's some kind of value judgment there. Horse is

00:41:32.800 --> 00:41:39.200
more important than parasites, let's kill the parasites. Wouldn't that imply a hierarchy?

00:41:39.200 --> 00:41:45.200
I would have thought the way you describe it a while ago. Now the horses are beginning

00:41:45.200 --> 00:41:54.040
to teach us so much about how the grazing animals relate to grass and the ground and the microbes

00:41:54.040 --> 00:41:59.960
underneath the soil, that we are actually not using these deworming things anymore because

00:41:59.960 --> 00:42:03.240
we don't want to cut that cycle. We try to find other solutions.

00:42:03.240 --> 00:42:05.120
Natural, more natural ones.

00:42:05.120 --> 00:42:10.000
Yes, and also it becomes a problem. I mean, horses are meant to have a certain amount of

00:42:10.000 --> 00:42:15.360
parasites to actually keep balanced, but not too many. The reason why they become too many

00:42:15.360 --> 00:42:19.680
is actually because we are destroying the land, the way we treat the land, and the way

00:42:19.680 --> 00:42:25.600
we put too many horses in the same paddocks or not in tuned with all the other species.

00:42:25.600 --> 00:42:33.120
So perhaps the horses couldn't exist without the parasites. So at this point, there is

00:42:33.120 --> 00:42:36.400
a change in me in that particular area at the moment.

00:42:36.400 --> 00:42:42.560
Alright, well let's say another example. Okay, mosquitoes spread malaria. So we don't want

00:42:42.560 --> 00:42:48.360
children to die of malaria, so we kill the mosquitoes as many as we can and get mosquito

00:42:48.360 --> 00:42:53.200
nets to starve the mosquitoes if necessary so they won't suck blood out of the children

00:42:53.200 --> 00:42:57.840
and give them malaria. So we're valuing the children above the mosquitoes. So there's again

00:42:57.840 --> 00:43:00.480
some kind of hierarchical judgment there.

00:43:00.480 --> 00:43:05.320
I'm not sure I would call it hierarchical, but I see what you mean. I'm thinking that

00:43:05.320 --> 00:43:12.920
for everyone who is alive, again we speak about appreciating life and how that is also spiritual,

00:43:12.920 --> 00:43:17.400
perhaps the center of the spiritual quest in a way because it leads us back to life.

00:43:17.400 --> 00:43:20.560
Everything that is alive will try to survive.

00:43:20.560 --> 00:43:25.560
A horse that would be attacked by a mountain lion will try to survive until the very, very

00:43:25.560 --> 00:43:26.560
end.

00:43:26.560 --> 00:43:30.920
The mountain lion will try to kill the horse in order to survive and risk its own life

00:43:30.920 --> 00:43:33.080
to feed its own children.

00:43:33.080 --> 00:43:37.660
We are all designed to do what we need to do in order to survive, but is that a sign of

00:43:37.660 --> 00:43:42.320
cruelty or is there a deeper balance in the system?

00:43:42.320 --> 00:43:47.920
So of course if a mosquito would kill my child, I would kill the mosquito to save my child

00:43:47.920 --> 00:43:51.820
because it would be a natural instinct to preserve life.

00:43:51.820 --> 00:43:56.780
It doesn't necessarily mean that I think my child is more valuable than the mosquito,

00:43:56.780 --> 00:44:01.400
but it is my instinct to do so and it's the love for my child and the fear of what will

00:44:01.400 --> 00:44:07.000
happen if I lose this child, of course, also the more selfish part. The mosquito will do

00:44:07.000 --> 00:44:13.800
the same from the mosquito's angle because that's what we are designed to do. And if

00:44:13.800 --> 00:44:19.280
this happens in a balance, the animals chasing the horses will make them run in a particular

00:44:19.280 --> 00:44:25.160
way that is actually good for the grass. When we keep horses separate and we try to protect

00:44:25.160 --> 00:44:31.000
them from everything, it changes their pattern of grazing. So they become sick and the pastures

00:44:31.000 --> 00:44:36.920
become sick. So we had to figure out systems, how we can actually make them run and I wouldn't say

00:44:36.920 --> 00:44:42.200
that we frighten them because we don't want to cause anything negative but we do need to get

00:44:42.200 --> 00:44:47.560
them stressed and excited to the point of recreating how they are supposed to move because otherwise

00:44:47.560 --> 00:44:53.960
they don't stay healthy. So I guess we are designed to meet in this play of life and death and

00:44:53.960 --> 00:45:00.360
interaction between bodies if that becomes cruel or creates suffering in us, it will at times,

00:45:00.360 --> 00:45:05.400
but perhaps it doesn't necessarily have to be, I don't think it's possible to live a life without

00:45:05.400 --> 00:45:12.040
pain, but when we move towards suffering, then it's more of a question how we look at it, I suppose.

00:45:12.040 --> 00:45:17.640
Pain, I think, is inevitable and I think it doesn't mean, I don't need to dislike the mosquito,

00:45:17.640 --> 00:45:23.160
I don't need to hate the mosquito, I will do what I'm designed to do for my species to survive,

00:45:23.160 --> 00:45:29.080
as would the others, but I think when we have this gap to all the other species, we are losing a

00:45:29.080 --> 00:45:37.080
sense of value and a sense of self-respect. So we have a short-sightedness in our way of interacting

00:45:37.080 --> 00:45:42.600
that other species obviously don't have because they are not destroying the planet the way we do.

00:45:42.600 --> 00:45:47.640
I totally agree. There's some kind of balance point in here I'm trying to find.

00:45:47.640 --> 00:45:53.720
Obviously we're in the midst of the sixth great mass extinction and hundreds of species go extinct

00:45:53.720 --> 00:46:00.720
just about every day. There's just been a huge reduction in wildlife populations over the

00:46:00.720 --> 00:46:04.780
last decades and it seems to be accelerating. And I mean, we're cutting down the rainforest

00:46:04.780 --> 00:46:09.640
in Indonesia to plant palm trees, to get palm oil, and it's eradicating the habitat of the

00:46:09.640 --> 00:46:17.880
orangutans and so on. So there's this human hubris and egotism and greed and sense of

00:46:17.880 --> 00:46:24.200
superiority that makes us feel that these other species are disposable and we can dispose

00:46:24.200 --> 00:46:27.400
of them in order to gain some economic advantage.

00:46:27.400 --> 00:46:31.240
And obviously that is terrible and it's destroying the world.

00:46:31.240 --> 00:46:38.360
Now holding that thought in mind, can we also think that, well, there are levels of complexity

00:46:38.360 --> 00:46:44.160
in nervous systems and levels of sophistication of function, and I'd rather be a human being

00:46:44.160 --> 00:46:50.280
than a mosquito because it's higher up the biological evolutionary scale and possibly

00:46:50.280 --> 00:46:57.820
the spiritual evolutionary scale if we define that as the ability to cognize and embody

00:46:57.820 --> 00:47:01.880
pure consciousness and express it and live it in daily life.

00:47:01.880 --> 00:47:05.600
Dr. Debra Hixson I would see that as a circle more. It's like

00:47:05.600 --> 00:47:11.900
if you have a herd of horses, you could see that there is one horse that none of the other

00:47:11.900 --> 00:47:16.860
horses can move around, almost none. And then there is one that perhaps most of the horses

00:47:16.860 --> 00:47:22.500
can shift around, but can bet on it. If the herd is big enough, the area is big enough,

00:47:22.500 --> 00:47:28.140
and their way of expressing natural life is big enough, then the one that everyone else

00:47:28.140 --> 00:47:33.100
is shifting around is the only one that can move, the one horse that no one else can move.

00:47:33.100 --> 00:47:35.100
It always becomes a circle in the end.

00:47:35.100 --> 00:47:38.700
Moving means the horse that can't be moved is just sort of stubborn and strong.

00:47:38.700 --> 00:47:39.700
Yes, exactly.

00:47:39.700 --> 00:47:40.700
No one can tell him what to do.

00:47:40.700 --> 00:47:42.540
Yeah, no one can shift his place.

00:47:42.540 --> 00:47:44.460
The other guy, everybody can push him around.

00:47:44.460 --> 00:47:48.500
And then it makes you confused because it's like, but why can he, because we again, we

00:47:48.500 --> 00:47:53.580
look for a line and I think a hierarchy is an expression of a line and when you bring

00:47:53.580 --> 00:47:55.700
it into a circle, it becomes confusing.

00:47:55.700 --> 00:48:00.900
Okay, so yes, we are definitely one of the most complex individuals on the planet.

00:48:00.900 --> 00:48:02.860
Is that good or bad or is it just complex?

00:48:02.860 --> 00:48:09.420
Well, the whole universe has grown from simplicity to complexity over the past 13.7 billion years.

00:48:09.420 --> 00:48:15.020
seems to be the direction of evolution. Yes, and you can experience it as an evolution because

00:48:15.020 --> 00:48:20.380
if life is so hungry in wanting to experience itself, it will keep creating more and more

00:48:20.380 --> 00:48:28.540
complexity in order for more diversity. That would be natural. But do we need to put it on a scale,

00:48:28.540 --> 00:48:34.700
or can the experience of being a mosquito be as fulfilling and spiritually fulfilling,

00:48:34.700 --> 00:48:40.460
even if the mosquito wouldn't express it. Because I contain all these microbes. Is this a bacteria?

00:48:40.460 --> 00:48:45.420
Is someone? I wouldn't be able to answer that question. But what am I actually containing?

00:48:45.420 --> 00:48:51.100
Am I really just one person? I don't have an answer to that. I just like to disturb my thoughts a

00:48:51.100 --> 00:48:56.220
little bit. Well, we're all conglomerates. I mean, we can each contain 40 to 100 trillion cells.

00:48:56.220 --> 00:49:02.300
Most of them aren't human because the microbiome is all these non-human cells and we can't live

00:49:02.300 --> 00:49:05.900
without it. And so, it's important, obviously.

00:49:05.900 --> 00:49:12.300
And how does it affect the consciousness? If a tree or a plant or an insect can have,

00:49:12.300 --> 00:49:19.500
equal to me as a human, a complex and a spiritual experience of awakening, then perhaps that

00:49:19.500 --> 00:49:25.020
is not tied to the complexity in itself. Our ability to explain it and to share it and

00:49:25.020 --> 00:49:30.540
to create art would be different. And I think, again, like we say that the humans have this

00:49:30.540 --> 00:49:35.900
interpretation and it makes us isolated

00:49:35.900 --> 00:49:38.180
and we've seen the negative effects of

00:49:38.180 --> 00:49:40.860
that quite strongly on the planet, all

00:49:40.860 --> 00:49:43.300
of those things you just said. But what if

00:49:43.300 --> 00:49:46.660
there is also a positive aspect to that?

00:49:46.660 --> 00:49:48.740
What if we can actually add things to this

00:49:48.740 --> 00:49:50.700
creation? I still wouldn't say that it

00:49:50.700 --> 00:49:54.660
would make us better or more evolved, it's

00:49:54.660 --> 00:49:57.300
just a typically human thing. Perhaps we

00:49:57.300 --> 00:50:00.180
could use that as a creativity but it

00:49:57.300 --> 00:50:02.340
wouldn't be creative unless we have

00:50:02.340 --> 00:50:04.740
opened the self to include the rest of

00:50:04.740 --> 00:50:07.380
the world. It will only be creative when

00:50:07.380 --> 00:50:10.220
we are no longer ruled by the ego or no

00:50:10.220 --> 00:50:12.460
longer ruled by personal gain. For as

00:50:12.460 --> 00:50:14.980
long as we are tempted by personal gain,

00:50:14.980 --> 00:50:17.020
the gap between us and the rest of the

00:50:17.020 --> 00:50:19.700
world will sadly, I think, be

00:50:19.700 --> 00:50:22.260
destructive. The good thing is that it's

00:50:22.260 --> 00:50:25.980
possible for us to open up ourselves and

00:50:22.260 --> 00:50:28.860
and our selves to include the rest of the reality and then we would no longer be

00:50:28.860 --> 00:50:34.500
so destructive because we wouldn't be drawn to that. I remember once in one of

00:50:34.500 --> 00:50:38.980
the classes we had in this school that is run by horses because they give us all

00:50:38.980 --> 00:50:44.340
the exercises and this was in early, it was about this time of the year or

00:50:44.340 --> 00:50:50.260
beginning of April and in Sweden it's cold and we were supposed to connect

00:50:50.260 --> 00:50:55.620
with insects. We were gathering early in the morning in a forest and it was foggy and rainy

00:50:55.620 --> 00:51:01.380
and dull and grey and we were supposed to meet insects and I was thinking, I must have missed

00:51:01.380 --> 00:51:05.860
something in this conversation because it's too cold, there are no insects. But I don't

00:51:05.860 --> 00:51:11.360
want to go against the idea of the horses because I trust them to see the entirety better

00:51:11.360 --> 00:51:17.060
than what I do. So it's like we better follow their path because we've let humans decide

00:51:17.060 --> 00:51:22.580
and be the boss for long enough. And we've seen where that took us. So let's try another version.

00:51:22.580 --> 00:51:27.860
So we all gathered in the forest and waiting for insects to come out. And after like about two

00:51:27.860 --> 00:51:31.940
hours, I saw this tiny fly. I don't know what you call them in English. In Swedish,

00:51:31.940 --> 00:51:35.620
we call them knott. They're tiny. They are like a millimeter.

00:51:35.620 --> 00:51:38.740
- Maybe a gnat, G-N-A-T, yeah. - Yes, it would be that.

00:51:38.740 --> 00:51:42.820
And normally they annoy you because they bite and it burns and they're in the way and you just want

00:51:42.820 --> 00:51:49.220
to disappear, right? But now, after waiting for one, for two hours, and connecting to this tiny

00:51:49.220 --> 00:51:55.140
flying dot, which was one of the most fascinating things I've ever done, and how an entire person

00:51:55.140 --> 00:52:00.420
can fit into that tiny body and have a full experience of life and knowing the Creator

00:52:00.420 --> 00:52:06.660
in doing so, I will never forget it. And then I was thinking, so if we were truly connected to

00:52:06.660 --> 00:52:12.980
to this planet, we wouldn't need almost anything to be fascinated by life.

00:52:12.980 --> 00:52:17.260
We really don't need to be so hungry for all these spectacular experiences.

00:52:17.260 --> 00:52:23.540
If we truly connect to the rest of the life on this planet, in a way, that's all we need.

00:52:23.540 --> 00:52:28.060
So we wouldn't naturally not be so destructive, because we wouldn't all the time look for

00:52:28.060 --> 00:52:30.620
things outside of ourselves.

00:52:30.620 --> 00:52:32.980
It's all inside of ourselves, truly.

00:52:32.980 --> 00:52:36.940
Yeah, yeah. I guess where I'm skeptical, and I don't know if you're going to be able to

00:52:36.940 --> 00:52:38.440
convince me in this conversation.

00:52:38.440 --> 00:52:41.660
I have no need to convince you, so that's fine with me.

00:52:41.660 --> 00:52:46.980
It's fun to talk about it. It's just that the idea that a gnat can have an experience

00:52:46.980 --> 00:52:55.160
that's as rich and full as a human being can have, given the gnat's extremely limited nervous

00:52:55.160 --> 00:52:59.580
system and sensory capabilities. I mean, obviously, there are all kinds of animals that have more

00:52:59.580 --> 00:53:06.140
sensory perception than we do. Bats and dogs, you know, all kinds of animals can perceive things we

00:53:06.140 --> 00:53:14.460
can't perceive. But in terms of being able to know oneself as one with God consciously, the way,

00:53:14.460 --> 00:53:20.060
you know, an enlightened being or enlightened saint can do, I'm just a little skeptical there.

00:53:20.060 --> 00:53:24.700
Dr. Annette: I understand that and I totally respect that. I think from the Nets' point of

00:53:24.700 --> 00:53:31.980
view, that's the starting point. I think they never really left the Creator, which means that the

00:53:31.980 --> 00:53:38.140
journey, we are speaking about enlightenment as a journey from being unaware to becoming aware

00:53:38.140 --> 00:53:44.940
and to find the invisible because the invisible and the eternal and the tangible, they're

00:53:44.940 --> 00:53:50.540
disconnected to us. So, we need to reconnect them. We need to find someone if the consciousness is the

00:53:50.540 --> 00:53:55.500
bridge between the soul and the body, we need to find someone who can walk that distance.

00:53:55.500 --> 00:53:59.260
And the one who walks that distance, it's quite important that he doesn't fall asleep

00:53:59.260 --> 00:54:04.460
on the way because then we have to start all over again, which we do daily because we constantly fall

00:54:04.460 --> 00:54:09.980
asleep, right? What if you never fell asleep? Then you wouldn't know anything else and it wouldn't

00:54:09.980 --> 00:54:16.220
really be a journey. What if the rest of the planet is already there and the ones doing the journey

00:54:16.860 --> 00:54:24.300
is us. So when we walk that distance, we enter into the life where everyone already is and they are

00:54:24.300 --> 00:54:30.940
actually receiving us. And they seem to be happy, they seem to want us to come and join the party.

00:54:30.940 --> 00:54:35.420
Even with all our destructiveness and all the suffering that we keep creating,

00:54:35.420 --> 00:54:42.940
they seem to really welcome us and help us along the way. So if we saw them as never disconnected,

00:54:42.940 --> 00:54:47.740
we wouldn't need to believe it to be true or not, or to be able to explain it or not.

00:54:47.740 --> 00:54:55.100
But what if we just gave that a chance? We could learn so much from other species that we have no

00:54:55.100 --> 00:54:59.100
idea that we could because we just presume that they would have nothing to say in the matter.

00:54:59.100 --> 00:55:02.060
Pete Well, species certainly have a lot to say,

00:55:02.060 --> 00:55:03.420
I mean, judging from your book.

00:55:03.420 --> 00:55:06.700
Anna But it's just me that can't be quiet.

00:55:06.700 --> 00:55:09.500
Pete No, no, no, you're doing great. But I believe

00:55:09.500 --> 00:55:15.660
this is what Ken Wilber calls the pre-trans fallacy, which is that there are certain characteristics of

00:55:15.660 --> 00:55:23.500
quote-unquote more primitive life forms like gnats that seem similar to supposed characteristics of

00:55:23.500 --> 00:55:27.660
enlightened beings. They're completely in tune with nature, they're completely spontaneous,

00:55:27.660 --> 00:55:32.620
they're just acting on natural instinct and doing exactly what they're supposed to do,

00:55:32.620 --> 00:55:37.820
given their role in life, and so on. And those things could all be said of someone who's

00:55:37.820 --> 00:55:43.820
enlightened. The messy part is unenlightened people who are in the middle who have free will,

00:55:43.820 --> 00:55:49.340
who have lost the connection with nature and haven't regained it in a deeper sense in terms

00:55:49.340 --> 00:55:55.180
of becoming consciously aware of the Godhead of pure consciousness and then having their life

00:55:55.180 --> 00:56:00.860
completely in the flow of that cosmic intelligence. And so then we create all kinds of trouble. I mean

00:56:00.860 --> 00:56:04.860
the world would be just fine if there were no humans and it were just the animals doing their

00:56:04.860 --> 00:56:10.060
thing and the world will also be fine if there are only enlightened people and animals, but

00:56:10.060 --> 00:56:15.500
no people to cause all the problems we cause. The problems arise when we're in this teenage

00:56:15.500 --> 00:56:21.420
phase as a species and we're exercising our free will but without the requisite wisdom

00:56:21.420 --> 00:56:23.020
to exercise it wisely.

00:56:23.020 --> 00:56:29.740
Yeah, I would agree with that. But I'm also thinking that I would add then one thing to

00:56:29.740 --> 00:56:35.980
the Gnat or anyone else who is just doing what they are designed to be doing, but perhaps

00:56:35.980 --> 00:56:38.520
they know that that is what they're doing.

00:56:38.520 --> 00:56:43.780
It doesn't just happen because they are designed like that and they're not just without will

00:56:43.780 --> 00:56:46.080
being guarded around by the Creator.

00:56:46.080 --> 00:56:48.900
Maybe they know that that is happening.

00:56:48.900 --> 00:56:54.780
If they know that, then they can tell about that experience and that can remind us what

00:56:54.780 --> 00:56:58.460
we are missing and it reminds me of the gap.

00:56:58.460 --> 00:57:05.700
And when I am reminded by the gap, perhaps my longing to find the Creator yet again is

00:57:05.700 --> 00:57:08.580
becoming more awake than it was before.

00:57:08.580 --> 00:57:09.580
Rick Yeah.

00:57:09.580 --> 00:57:12.060
My spin on that would be that certainly the…

00:57:12.060 --> 00:57:13.540
Diana But the knowledge, sorry, but the knowledge

00:57:13.540 --> 00:57:18.020
would then not be related to the brain of the gnat.

00:57:18.020 --> 00:57:22.340
It would be the spiritual awareness of the gnat.

00:57:22.340 --> 00:57:26.900
Is the consciousness tied to the brain or is it tied to the soul?

00:57:26.900 --> 00:57:31.540
And then I'm thinking, well, I couldn't have had that conversation with all of these individuals

00:57:31.540 --> 00:57:35.880
if it was to the brain, because a tree wouldn't have a brain, a tree wouldn't have an image

00:57:35.880 --> 00:57:39.220
of the world that I could ever even relate to.

00:57:39.220 --> 00:57:45.220
We can still meet, and in that meeting point, perhaps a tiny bit of a translation can be

00:57:45.220 --> 00:57:47.420
passed on to me as a human.

00:57:47.420 --> 00:57:52.300
It will always be distorted in some sense, because the minute my brain knows what I'm

00:57:52.300 --> 00:57:55.780
experiencing, it's no longer the tree, it's me, right?

00:57:55.780 --> 00:58:00.220
So it's basically being lost the moment it's being found.

00:58:00.220 --> 00:58:05.240
So whatever I'm trying to put words on will always be limited, but you would still die

00:58:05.240 --> 00:58:12.020
for that glimpse because that reality of sharing another individual's experience of life, it's

00:58:12.020 --> 00:58:18.900
still, even if it's just a glimpse, and that's all you can pull out and try to put words

00:58:18.900 --> 00:58:22.980
on, it will still be worth it because of the love of the creation, I suppose.

00:58:22.980 --> 00:58:30.260
Yeah, now I know you've had fairly sophisticated conversations with chickens, but have you

00:58:30.260 --> 00:58:36.940
ever had a meaningful conversation with a gnat or a worm or a slug or, you know, some

00:58:36.940 --> 00:58:38.820
much more rudimentary life form?

00:58:38.820 --> 00:58:44.100
Yes, yes, but I think the limitation is with me, because when I have a conversation with

00:58:44.100 --> 00:58:50.540
a horse or a dog, with animals that lives with people, then we have a lot of common ground.

00:58:50.540 --> 00:58:54.220
know what it's like to go for a walk, we know what it's like to go for a ride, we have lots to talk

00:58:54.220 --> 00:59:01.420
about that my brain can relate to. So my brain is really happy and responds. I remember the first

00:59:01.420 --> 00:59:07.020
time I got in connection with an insect was in a parking lot outside of a shop and I saw a parking

00:59:07.020 --> 00:59:12.700
lot. It would look the same to me and you but for the insect this experience of the parking lot it

00:59:12.700 --> 00:59:18.940
was completely different colors that I couldn't even relate to. It felt hilly and there was a

00:59:18.940 --> 00:59:24.460
completely different planet and it didn't even know about me or humans. I realized that, okay,

00:59:24.460 --> 00:59:31.180
so I'm not at all in the center of this insect's life. It's so different to me that it's very hard

00:59:31.180 --> 00:59:38.620
for me to follow. So it becomes less of a conversation and more of an instinctive

00:59:38.620 --> 00:59:45.340
experience. You get this sort of experience of what it's like to be that and then it's gone again.

00:59:45.340 --> 00:59:51.260
and for a long time I thought that, this is funny, for a long time I thought that other species

00:59:51.260 --> 00:59:57.900
communicate in this sort of tiny dots. It took me years to realize that it's no, it's my awareness.

00:59:57.900 --> 01:00:03.900
I fall asleep all the time so all I can get is glimpses because then I fall out again and then

01:00:03.900 --> 01:00:09.740
I struggle to get in to be able to listen again. So the limitation would be mine because I need to

01:00:09.740 --> 01:00:16.060
stretch my abstract ability to what cannot even be compared to the human experience.

01:00:16.060 --> 01:00:22.380
And I do that every time I experience something that is outside of my comfort zone,

01:00:22.380 --> 01:00:28.140
if you would call it that, or what has been experienced so far. But it would take me forever.

01:00:28.140 --> 01:00:33.100
So, in this lifetime, I'm more likely to have longer conversations with animals that I have more

01:00:33.100 --> 01:00:35.980
that are less abstract to me. Right.

01:00:36.620 --> 01:00:39.020
is what I believe right now, anyway.

01:00:39.020 --> 01:00:41.740
Yeah, this is making more sense to me as I go along with you here.

01:00:41.740 --> 01:00:44.620
Here's an insight that might help.

01:00:44.620 --> 01:00:52.380
So, we probably both agree that there is universal consciousness, universal intelligence,

01:00:52.380 --> 01:00:54.940
it permeates and orchestrates everything.

01:00:54.940 --> 01:00:56.620
Are we on the same page with that?

01:00:56.620 --> 01:00:57.180
Yeah.

01:00:57.180 --> 01:01:01.980
Okay, so that being the case, that universal consciousness is our very essence.

01:01:01.980 --> 01:01:08.380
yours, mine, the camera, the gnat, the worm, whatever. If they are conscious or even if

01:01:08.380 --> 01:01:13.820
they're not conscious, that consciousness permeates them. And if they are conscious to some degree,

01:01:13.820 --> 01:01:19.260
then they are a reflector of that consciousness in a certain way, depending upon the nature of their

01:01:19.260 --> 01:01:24.140
nervous system. And the character of their personality, if you ask me. Yeah, which is

01:01:24.140 --> 01:01:29.980
related to the nature of their nervous system, I suppose. So, maybe like you say with the insect,

01:01:29.980 --> 01:01:36.540
for instance, who sees the parking lot so differently than you can barely conceive of it, you know,

01:01:36.540 --> 01:01:38.340
and it is a conscious experience for them.

01:01:38.340 --> 01:01:46.300
They have senses, and, you know, that universal consciousness, it's active in them as just

01:01:46.300 --> 01:01:47.420
as it's active in us.

01:01:47.420 --> 01:01:50.320
They wouldn't be able to function were it not.

01:01:50.320 --> 01:01:57.540
And there's some sort of level of that consciousness, which is not just unmanifest, but is active,

01:01:57.540 --> 01:02:04.780
engaged, creative, orchestrating things, and you're able to, you, Emily, are able to tune

01:02:04.780 --> 01:02:10.940
into that as it relates to, or as it interfaces with, the gnat.

01:02:10.940 --> 01:02:12.820
We're really picking on gnats in this interview.

01:02:12.820 --> 01:02:16.380
You know, that was unexpected, wasn't it?

01:02:16.380 --> 01:02:17.380
I know.

01:02:17.380 --> 01:02:22.420
And therefore, there actually can be some kind of meaningful communication, because you're

01:02:22.420 --> 01:02:28.780
not just communicating with the limited gnat consciousness, you're communicating with the

01:02:28.780 --> 01:02:34.180
archetype or the deva, you could say. You know the word deva, right? The spirit of the

01:02:34.180 --> 01:02:39.020
gnat kingdom. And that spirit could be quite wise and quite profound. Well, there's a great

01:02:39.020 --> 01:02:42.900
thing in your thing here. This is from the Maori medicine woman. She said, "If you're

01:02:42.900 --> 01:02:47.100
no longer able to communicate with the plants and instead reduced to having to read about

01:02:47.100 --> 01:02:51.260
their knowledge, then you should not be working with medicine." So how do you communicate

01:02:51.260 --> 01:02:56.780
with plants, you obviously communicate with the deva or the spirit of the plant in question.

01:02:56.780 --> 01:03:03.780
Dr. Shefali: I think it is the same. It is all the same idea. To me, all of these individuals

01:03:03.780 --> 01:03:10.620
will still be persons, individuals, as well as the common consciousness that we spoke about.

01:03:10.620 --> 01:03:15.140
There is also an individual translating it or living it. I would say perhaps living it

01:03:15.140 --> 01:03:16.140
is a better word.

01:03:16.140 --> 01:03:17.500
Dave: You mean like an individual plant?

01:03:17.500 --> 01:03:21.180
Yes, because otherwise, what would be the point of individuals?

01:03:21.180 --> 01:03:25.300
Why would life have this urge to experience all these different angles?

01:03:25.300 --> 01:03:28.260
Because it's becoming personalized.

01:03:28.260 --> 01:03:32.940
Every time in that, we'll still experience it slightly different from the other one.

01:03:32.940 --> 01:03:37.900
And that seems to be a sense of humor in life and the longing in life to keep re-experiencing

01:03:37.900 --> 01:03:43.100
itself with such a force that we cannot grasp it because it's so much bigger than us.

01:03:43.100 --> 01:03:48.280
But when we don't have an ego surrounding it, perhaps it goes through in a way easier.

01:03:48.280 --> 01:03:53.620
Perhaps it's just a, I'm not saying it is so, but perhaps it is so.

01:03:53.620 --> 01:03:59.840
And then whatever species you communicate to would be less relevant because you're still

01:03:59.840 --> 01:04:01.580
meeting someone.

01:04:01.580 --> 01:04:06.500
If it's a plant, if it's a tree, the difference between a plant I think and why that's never

01:04:06.500 --> 01:04:12.660
been so popular as animal communication is that it's harder for us as humans to know

01:04:12.660 --> 01:04:18.580
the form we are relating to. There is no nervous system, there is no head, there is no feet.

01:04:18.580 --> 01:04:24.700
The whole concept of beginning and end is complicated because some develop because they develop

01:04:24.700 --> 01:04:29.180
longer roots and all of a sudden there is another plant popping out of the same root.

01:04:29.180 --> 01:04:33.700
Is it two different plants or who am I talking to? What if it's not really relevant and if

01:04:33.700 --> 01:04:41.660
I let that go and I just open myself to receive the being of this plant and I leave my ideas

01:04:41.660 --> 01:04:46.340
and opinions aside for a moment because otherwise there is no emptiness for the plant to come

01:04:46.340 --> 01:04:50.060
in and then I just see what happens.

01:04:50.060 --> 01:04:57.020
To me the experience of plants is that they often communicate gifts, what they are good

01:04:57.020 --> 01:05:01.500
for, how they contribute and what you find when you do this, I mean I do this as a full

01:05:01.500 --> 01:05:08.560
time job for the past almost 30 years, is that nature seems to be very generous.

01:05:08.560 --> 01:05:11.560
We live on a planet where generosity is one of the keys.

01:05:11.560 --> 01:05:16.320
It's like everything that is alive seems to have a natural generosity.

01:05:16.320 --> 01:05:21.600
It always creates more than what it needs just to survive for itself.

01:05:21.600 --> 01:05:23.560
The chickens would explain the same thing.

01:05:23.560 --> 01:05:26.040
Not every egg is supposed to be a chicken.

01:05:26.040 --> 01:05:29.080
There are also eggs that are supposed to be food.

01:05:29.080 --> 01:05:31.800
We give more than what we need for ourselves.

01:05:31.800 --> 01:05:37.040
It's just that humans, we seem to forget that we are also beings on this planet.

01:05:37.040 --> 01:05:43.360
supposed to be generous. And when we constantly relate to what we gain from something, we trade.

01:05:43.360 --> 01:05:48.720
We don't share, we trade. It's different. Nature doesn't do that. It constantly gives.

01:05:48.720 --> 01:05:55.520
And with plants, I think you get really reminded of that. And that's how they also explain that

01:05:55.520 --> 01:06:01.360
even when we destroy this planet, if we just leave it for a long enough time, it will start

01:06:01.360 --> 01:06:07.840
healing itself. It's the generosity that makes that possible because there is already an extra

01:06:07.840 --> 01:06:15.200
in each tuft of grass, in each tree that will give something back to the earth. If we have destroyed

01:06:15.200 --> 01:06:20.800
it badly enough with whatever radioactive substances or chemicals or whatever, perhaps we

01:06:20.800 --> 01:06:26.400
also need to put on some conscious acting into that. But nature in itself is healing because it's

01:06:26.400 --> 01:06:31.760
in its nature and that's why it's not revengeful. It's like we're waiting for nature to hit back.

01:06:31.760 --> 01:06:37.520
It's like we continue to destroy it until it hits back. But that's perhaps not likely to happen. It's

01:06:37.520 --> 01:06:44.640
the consequence of our actions might hit back. But there is no thought in nature to be harmful

01:06:44.640 --> 01:06:51.600
to teach you something. Nature seems to teach through compassion. The entire idea of teaching is

01:06:51.600 --> 01:06:57.840
the more I am able to feel inside of me the effect of my actions, the more I learn.

01:06:57.840 --> 01:07:04.640
I don't really learn as much from being punished. And that's what we see when we punish dogs and

01:07:04.640 --> 01:07:09.120
horses to do as they're told because we believe that they live in a hierarchy where the leader

01:07:09.120 --> 01:07:14.480
is punishing them so it's natural. But why is it then when I meet animals that are perfectly

01:07:14.480 --> 01:07:20.720
obedient and perhaps even very good in competitions or whatever and they're totally submissive, they

01:07:20.720 --> 01:07:26.000
they are never happy, they should naturally be happy. We are not happy in submission,

01:07:26.000 --> 01:07:31.300
we know that, why would anyone else be? And I think that's where the idea of a hierarchy

01:07:31.300 --> 01:07:36.080
can become harmful. Not the way you describe it from an evolutionary point of view, but

01:07:36.080 --> 01:07:42.640
we need to recreate the circle of it, because otherwise we tend to believe that by bringing

01:07:42.640 --> 01:07:48.240
us to the top and having a different sense of value when we look at the others, we are

01:07:48.240 --> 01:07:55.360
losing that possibility of entering into this reality. And to me, what is the point of spiritual

01:07:55.360 --> 01:08:00.320
awakening if it doesn't happen here, if it doesn't happen from the heart and we can't

01:08:00.320 --> 01:08:05.920
share it with the rest of the life? It's not a career, we're not making a spiritual career,

01:08:05.920 --> 01:08:11.440
we're not moving on to somewhere else where there is a university class for the best ones, right?

01:08:11.440 --> 01:08:17.600
We're diving into the eternal, unconditional, compassionate love that we came from,

01:08:17.600 --> 01:08:20.640
whether we're good or bad, we're going to end up there.

01:08:20.640 --> 01:08:23.920
That's beautiful. You're so eloquent. I really appreciate this.

01:08:23.920 --> 01:08:27.440
I was kind of reminded as you're speaking of a movie by Michael Moore,

01:08:27.440 --> 01:08:30.240
I think, called "Where Shall We Invade Next?"

01:08:30.240 --> 01:08:34.080
I don't mean to laugh, but it's very human, isn't it?

01:08:34.080 --> 01:08:37.600
And he was talking about the prison system in, I don't know whether it was

01:08:37.600 --> 01:08:40.880
Sweden, Denmark, Norway, one of the Scandinavian countries, and he was

01:08:40.880 --> 01:08:44.960
saying it's almost like a country club. I mean, these people are treated so nicely

01:08:44.960 --> 01:08:49.440
that they really rehabilitate and they have very low recidivism rates and everything

01:08:49.440 --> 01:08:54.880
compared to the punishment mentality that we have in the US and probably other places.

01:08:54.880 --> 01:09:01.840
There's a number of things I'd like to talk to you about. One is that you've sort of subtly alluded

01:09:01.840 --> 01:09:07.520
to it just now and there were parts in your book which made me think of it which I think you feel

01:09:07.520 --> 01:09:12.640
maybe in part because of your communication with horses and other animals and also just your own

01:09:13.280 --> 01:09:21.280
insights that society is undergoing a big transition. Let's talk about that a little bit. There's

01:09:21.280 --> 01:09:26.120
certain things, I live in Iowa, which is in the middle of the US, and there are something

01:09:26.120 --> 01:09:32.500
like, I don't know, 22 or 3 million pigs in Iowa, and 3 million people. And those pigs

01:09:32.500 --> 01:09:37.320
don't have very good lives. Most of them live in CAFOs, which are these confinements of 1200

01:09:37.320 --> 01:09:42.960
hogs that you can't even turn around because it's so tightly confined. And it pollutes

01:09:42.960 --> 01:09:48.280
the environment, it pollutes the air, Iowa has the second highest cancer rate in the country,

01:09:48.280 --> 01:09:54.160
so all kinds of problems from it. So when I see something like that, I can't imagine an

01:09:54.160 --> 01:10:00.200
enlightened society in which such a thing could exist. What's your vision of an ideal

01:10:00.200 --> 01:10:06.960
world that we might hopefully come to realize, and our treatment of animals, what would it

01:10:06.960 --> 01:10:11.480
look like in such a world? And what do we need to do to help transition to that world?

01:10:11.480 --> 01:10:16.600
And what are we doing to retard our transitioning to that world?

01:10:16.600 --> 01:10:22.640
I believe that a truly compassionate experience, and compassionate to me would mean the expansion

01:10:22.640 --> 01:10:26.160
of the self to include others than me.

01:10:26.160 --> 01:10:32.200
I believe that's the only way to really come to an insight that would change me, that would

01:10:32.200 --> 01:10:34.440
motivate me to change.

01:10:34.440 --> 01:10:37.960
Because I believe punishment only lasts for a short while.

01:10:37.960 --> 01:10:43.560
watch a horrible movie or someone who's filming the reality of these pigs and for a couple of weeks no

01:10:43.560 --> 01:10:49.080
one will eat pig meat because you just can't because it's painful for you to see that movie and

01:10:49.080 --> 01:10:54.360
you don't want to contribute but then you forget. There are actually laws against taking movies like

01:10:54.360 --> 01:11:00.280
that you can get arrested if you bring a camera into one of these places. Yeah brilliant so that's not

01:11:00.280 --> 01:11:04.600
possible then but sometimes there are these brave people that do these things. Right they sneak a

01:11:04.600 --> 01:11:09.560
camera in or something. Yeah, but we forget that and eventually we go back to our traditional culture

01:11:09.560 --> 01:11:15.320
because that's the easiest, right? I believe we need to practice compassion from when we're small.

01:11:15.320 --> 01:11:20.280
I think one big mistake is that we tend to believe that humans are the only ones that can feel

01:11:20.280 --> 01:11:26.360
compassion as if that would be inbuilt and without doing anything we're just going to be in that

01:11:26.360 --> 01:11:31.320
state. And I think we definitely have the possibility to become compassionate but we

01:11:31.320 --> 01:11:35.720
we need to constantly practice because when we don't constantly practice an

01:11:35.720 --> 01:11:39.880
opening it will just naturally start closing itself because that's how it

01:11:39.880 --> 01:11:44.840
goes and the reason why I really believe in this is that I've had the experience

01:11:44.840 --> 01:11:50.360
of animals talking about life after death and I've met people that talk

01:11:50.360 --> 01:11:54.640
about life after death and the interesting thing is that their stories

01:11:54.640 --> 01:12:00.720
are exactly the same. It's not just a little bit similar and if you're really

01:12:00.720 --> 01:12:06.560
trying to look you can see some similarities. They are exactly the same, on the dot the same.

01:12:06.560 --> 01:12:13.360
And the key in these stories, the way I see it so far, is that all of these individuals describe that

01:12:13.360 --> 01:12:20.000
after you pass, you pass over and you leave your body here and your experiences goes back and is

01:12:20.000 --> 01:12:24.960
planted in the soil in a way quite beautifully. You bury the body and the experience of the body

01:12:24.960 --> 01:12:31.040
is also being transformed because we have cellular memory, right? And then the soul continues on its

01:12:31.040 --> 01:12:38.320
journey somehow. And everyone keeps explaining the same thing and it's that at one point you meet

01:12:38.320 --> 01:12:46.240
a being. It's never really described as a person but it's still someone and this someone is so

01:12:46.240 --> 01:12:51.840
loving that there is no words that can describe it really. It's this complete, compassionate,

01:12:51.840 --> 01:12:58.880
unconditional love. And with the presence of this extremely loving non-judgmental being,

01:12:58.880 --> 01:13:05.920
you go through your entire life. And the animals will describe it as you go through every second

01:13:05.920 --> 01:13:13.440
of it, not just the sort of main traces or big events or whatever most important conclusions,

01:13:13.440 --> 01:13:18.720
but every single second you relive your life. And because you're outside of time, it's not relevant

01:13:18.720 --> 01:13:23.280
how long it will take, you have all the time in the world and if you're out of time, you're actually

01:13:23.280 --> 01:13:29.280
also outside of any form. So there's no limitation to how many individuals can go through this at the

01:13:29.280 --> 01:13:35.040
same time because you are no longer in a place. And with this going through your entire life with

01:13:35.040 --> 01:13:40.000
this compassionate being is that you don't only experience what you've done yourself,

01:13:40.000 --> 01:13:47.200
but you experience how the rest of the world have experienced you. So you get the full compassionate

01:13:47.200 --> 01:13:53.440
insight into how your life has been. And of course you could choose to see that as a punishment if

01:13:53.440 --> 01:13:57.520
you believe in that there has to be justice because if you have killed someone and you

01:13:57.520 --> 01:14:03.360
will truly experience how the other one experienced that, well there is an insight in that. But it's

01:14:03.360 --> 01:14:08.320
not brought to you as a punishment because it's brought to you with this complete compassion

01:14:08.320 --> 01:14:14.240
because there seems to be nothing else that would make you dare to become so vulnerable

01:14:14.240 --> 01:14:20.160
that you can truly receive that experience. And with all these insights, then the people with

01:14:20.160 --> 01:14:25.840
near-death experiences, they tend to go back to life after that. So, the story sort of ends there,

01:14:25.840 --> 01:14:31.200
if I've understood it right. I haven't had it myself. But some animals continue this story

01:14:31.200 --> 01:14:40.000
by saying that after this deep insight in your life as an entirety, you go into a state of

01:14:40.000 --> 01:14:45.760
forgetfulness and no one knows what happens there. And to most of the species that describes this,

01:14:45.760 --> 01:14:51.040
that is also where God comes into it or the Creator, whatever you choose to call it, because

01:14:51.040 --> 01:14:56.320
that is beyond the individual awareness. There is no longer any individual that can

01:14:56.320 --> 01:15:03.040
remember anything. There is complete nothingness. And the great mystery and why there perhaps is a

01:15:03.040 --> 01:15:07.920
God is because no one knows what happens there. But out of this nothingness where everything

01:15:07.920 --> 01:15:13.760
merges together in some nothing and everything at the same time, the individual is born again.

01:15:13.760 --> 01:15:19.440
Out of that comes the individual, the seed that sprouts, the person that is born comes

01:15:19.440 --> 01:15:25.760
out of that and that is the big mystic miracle that no one can ever explain and perhaps we

01:15:25.760 --> 01:15:30.320
don't want to explain it because it would take something away.

01:15:30.320 --> 01:15:34.680
But if you think about that learning and that insight, what if the only way for us to come

01:15:34.680 --> 01:15:41.080
to a true insight in what we're doing is through compassion, then that seems somehow logic to me.

01:15:41.080 --> 01:15:48.920
And when we bring humans into the room of having animal teachers, like we do here, there is

01:15:48.920 --> 01:15:55.160
something about that meeting point because if the animals are what we described, they are already in

01:15:55.160 --> 01:16:00.760
connection with a greater whatever. I would also say that there are scales there when we say the

01:16:00.760 --> 01:16:06.040
animals can also make the journey. Because animals that are brought to our civilization,

01:16:06.040 --> 01:16:11.160
and like the pigs you describe, like chickens in a factory, like horses that are being whipped in a

01:16:11.160 --> 01:16:18.760
riding school, they can also lose that connection. It just seems that their way back is perhaps a bit

01:16:18.760 --> 01:16:24.920
straighter and shorter than ours. If they get reminded, it's like they more quickly go back

01:16:24.920 --> 01:16:31.480
into it. While with humans, and I guess that has to do with our identification and our ability to

01:16:31.480 --> 01:16:38.520
interpret what we experience, we like habit. If you have a dog that has been abused by a man wearing

01:16:38.520 --> 01:16:44.920
a blue sweater, that dog will, even after the treatment of post-traumatic stress disorder and

01:16:44.920 --> 01:16:50.680
the entire healing process, most likely this dog will avoid men with blue sweaters for the rest of

01:16:50.680 --> 01:16:56.360
its life because it's a survival instinct. But a human in the same situation is sadly likely to

01:16:56.360 --> 01:17:03.400
marry the man with the blue sweater. Why do we choose habit over discretion?

01:17:03.400 --> 01:17:07.720
- Suckers for punishment. - Yeah. We seem to feel so safe with the habit

01:17:07.720 --> 01:17:14.280
that it's worth the risk. Even if we know we will die from the habit, we know we can die if we smoke,

01:17:14.280 --> 01:17:19.320
but the habit is stronger. And perhaps that's why we have more twists and turns on our road. So,

01:17:19.880 --> 01:17:22.880
Animals can get into bad habits. I mean, they've done experiments.

01:17:22.880 --> 01:17:23.880
Oh, they definitely can.

01:17:23.880 --> 01:17:26.880
You know, where rats are given cocaine or whatever, they get addicted.

01:17:26.880 --> 01:17:28.880
They can, they can, definitely.

01:17:28.880 --> 01:17:31.880
But it takes an unnatural environment for that to happen.

01:17:31.880 --> 01:17:32.880
Right, right.

01:17:32.880 --> 01:17:34.880
And I guess it's the same for us.

01:17:34.880 --> 01:17:38.880
We've created an unnatural environment.

01:17:38.880 --> 01:17:43.880
But if you have, for example, like we have in this place, we have animals that have been abused,

01:17:43.880 --> 01:17:48.880
and most of them have had some sort of level of post-traumatic stress disorder, they heal it.

01:17:48.880 --> 01:17:55.760
and then they meet people and I guess when we enter a room with our physical being, our stories come

01:17:55.760 --> 01:18:02.000
with us, whether they are spoken of or not. So when you have these animals that have healed or are in a

01:18:02.000 --> 01:18:09.920
process of healing and they have no judgmental ability because they don't build their world on

01:18:09.920 --> 01:18:17.360
opinions, then something happens to us. Something happens to us in our courage and vulnerability to

01:18:17.360 --> 01:18:23.040
meet ourselves when we have an animal present compared to if they were not. So I think there's

01:18:23.040 --> 01:18:31.120
a great chance for us to dare to go one step further to practice meeting God when we leave

01:18:31.120 --> 01:18:38.160
this body. How much of that can be done here on this planet so that we can come to these insights

01:18:38.160 --> 01:18:45.280
and give back this love? What if this planet is a reflection of the other side outside of time?

01:18:45.280 --> 01:18:48.960
How much can we bring back from there already when we are alive?

01:18:48.960 --> 01:18:53.840
Like the Sufis are talking about dying while you are still alive.

01:18:53.840 --> 01:18:56.880
And I meet animals that speak about that as well.

01:18:56.880 --> 01:19:01.600
And one horse, he was so sick that he was really preparing to die.

01:19:01.600 --> 01:19:04.240
And he invited me to be with him.

01:19:04.240 --> 01:19:07.920
And me and another horse, because he said there is always a witness.

01:19:07.920 --> 01:19:11.360
When someone is doing this, there is always a witness so that the story will be

01:19:11.360 --> 01:19:12.720
brought back to the living.

01:19:13.840 --> 01:19:19.040
So it was me and another horse sitting with his dying horse and he went through the whole process

01:19:19.040 --> 01:19:25.440
of shifting his consciousness from his limited being, if you want to call it that, his personality

01:19:25.440 --> 01:19:32.240
as a person, to a greater sense of self, a more wide sense of self. And when he did that shift,

01:19:32.240 --> 01:19:38.880
he could see himself as a young foal and he could see how this young individual was, he was scared

01:19:38.880 --> 01:19:44.720
of everything. He was worried about the future, he was afraid of pain, he was afraid of humans,

01:19:44.720 --> 01:19:51.120
and he had this huge love towards himself as this tiny foal. So all he wanted to do was to tell him

01:19:51.120 --> 01:19:56.720
that, "Please, my dear boy, you don't have to worry about anything. It's all fine. We're all going back

01:19:56.720 --> 01:20:03.040
to God." But then, before he did that, he was like, "No, wait a minute. I will not tell him,

01:20:03.600 --> 01:20:11.040
because I trust him so much that he will be able to find this path by himself, that I love him enough

01:20:11.040 --> 01:20:16.640
to trust him to go through all the pain and worries and sufferings that he will go through

01:20:16.640 --> 01:20:22.880
so we can finally meet here, because otherwise we would never have done that. So there is this

01:20:22.880 --> 01:20:28.720
love in setting someone free to also make all the mistakes he needs to make, and it was beautiful

01:20:28.720 --> 01:20:34.880
to follow him on this and he survived. He survived his injury, he healed after that, he lived for

01:20:34.880 --> 01:20:40.640
another year and he had a tumor. After a year the tumor was so big that it was the end of it

01:20:40.640 --> 01:20:44.880
and I was sitting with him in this field next to a lake and we both knew that he was dying in a few

01:20:44.880 --> 01:20:50.880
days and he was like, "This is fine, I've already done the big death." The big death, that was a

01:20:50.880 --> 01:20:57.200
year ago. This step outside of existence, this is just, this is the small death, the small dying

01:20:57.840 --> 01:21:03.840
And I'm thinking perhaps it is the same for us, that actually we are so tied to the habit of our

01:21:03.840 --> 01:21:11.680
identity that that's a bigger sense of dying than actually losing the body because of the repetition.

01:21:11.680 --> 01:21:17.360
Perhaps it is like that, but what if we can start that journey already here?

01:21:17.360 --> 01:21:20.320
Pete Yeah, like you say, it's die before you die.

01:21:20.320 --> 01:21:28.720
Then we need compassion. So before we have that compassion as a natural element in our human

01:21:28.720 --> 01:21:34.120
training, like we had a horse that described the human beings as not fully upright yet,

01:21:34.120 --> 01:21:38.560
it's like we are not completely there yet. And there is still hope actually also,

01:21:38.560 --> 01:21:46.000
because this is not all that we can be, but we need to do something about it. We need to have

01:21:46.000 --> 01:21:50.720
a will to challenge ourselves I suppose. That's what I like with your questions

01:21:50.720 --> 01:21:54.840
when you challenge me. I love this because it's there is such a respect and

01:21:54.840 --> 01:21:59.360
curiosity in it and we need to do that to each other and dare to do it because

01:21:59.360 --> 01:22:05.160
it's not criticism it's bringing out more of ourselves right? Yeah. So I think

01:22:05.160 --> 01:22:11.400
sadly nothing will happen for these pigs perhaps not before compassion has become

01:22:11.400 --> 01:22:17.440
a subject in school that is scheduled into our lives. Not something we do in the spare

01:22:17.440 --> 01:22:21.440
time when we have a nice moment and the sun is setting and the weather is good. It has

01:22:21.440 --> 01:22:24.600
to be part of our everyday practice.

01:22:24.600 --> 01:22:29.320
Very good. There's several seed thoughts that I want to talk to you about in everything

01:22:29.320 --> 01:22:34.360
that you've just said. One is how to make compassion more of a universal development

01:22:34.360 --> 01:22:40.200
for humanity. Another is on the subject of reincarnation, I have a question or two.

01:22:40.200 --> 01:22:41.200
And so have I.

01:22:41.200 --> 01:22:42.200
Yeah.

01:22:42.200 --> 01:22:43.200
It's like...

01:22:43.200 --> 01:22:48.640
And another is about what you do there with your school, because as you speak, I mean,

01:22:48.640 --> 01:22:51.120
you mentioned it's a school and a farm.

01:22:51.120 --> 01:22:56.160
And as you speak, I keep visioning that, wow, this is a place where you should have like

01:22:56.160 --> 01:23:01.040
retreats where people can come for a week or two, 40, 50 people or whatever number you

01:23:01.040 --> 01:23:06.520
can accommodate and work with you, work with the animals and just kind of immerse themselves

01:23:06.520 --> 01:23:12.600
in the kind of wisdom you're expressing and also just your orientation to animals. I think it could

01:23:12.600 --> 01:23:18.920
be a lot more beneficial for people than a great many spiritual retreats that people go on these

01:23:18.920 --> 01:23:23.560
days. So there's that. I mean, do you have anything like that when you say it's a school?

01:23:23.560 --> 01:23:27.880
Yeah, it took a long time. I mean, it's a process and I don't know where it's going,

01:23:27.880 --> 01:23:33.400
because it started with the animals coming here in a very bad state and they needed time to heal

01:23:33.400 --> 01:23:40.280
and they needed a safe place. So my idea, I was 21 when I moved out here by myself with this crazy

01:23:40.280 --> 01:23:46.120
dream that no one believed in, perhaps not even me, but the urge to do it was stronger and I had

01:23:46.120 --> 01:23:52.440
nothing to lose basically. To create a place where you can be yourself without being judged, where you

01:23:52.440 --> 01:23:57.480
don't have to be someone else in order to be accepted, in order to survive, in order to make

01:23:57.480 --> 01:24:03.240
money. I wanted that for the animals, that they've been whipped, they've been

01:24:03.240 --> 01:24:07.480
threatened to be killed because they don't give people what they think that

01:24:07.480 --> 01:24:11.640
they deserve to get from these animals. We forget that if I buy a horse because I

01:24:11.640 --> 01:24:16.520
want to jump with that horse, for example, well I buy that horse from another human

01:24:16.520 --> 01:24:21.840
being. I never made a deal with that horse. It's slave trade actually. I want

01:24:21.840 --> 01:24:25.680
a service from that animal and I pay someone else for it and then I get

01:24:25.680 --> 01:24:29.560
disappointed when I don't get anything back from the animal, to the point where

01:24:29.560 --> 01:24:33.880
I have these explanations that perhaps I should kill it, because I deserve better.

01:24:33.880 --> 01:24:38.200
It's very sad when you think about it like that. So I wanted to create a place

01:24:38.200 --> 01:24:43.320
where you can feel safe, where you're not gonna get sold. This is the end of the

01:24:43.320 --> 01:24:48.520
road. If you come here as an animal that were close to die, in a severe state of

01:24:48.520 --> 01:24:53.520
PTSD, most of them, then it's not that once you're better you will be sold. We

01:24:53.520 --> 01:24:58.440
take away the concept of being sold because it's problematic. It means that you have a

01:24:58.440 --> 01:25:03.440
limited value and animals, even if you're worth 10 million dollars, it's still very limited

01:25:03.440 --> 01:25:09.440
value because you can count it. And all species seem to describe that no matter what you are

01:25:09.440 --> 01:25:17.640
in this creation, the life in you is equally big. But it's not more life in you or me than

01:25:17.640 --> 01:25:22.200
in the tree or the elephant or the mosquito or the gnat or whatever. The actual life, it's

01:25:22.200 --> 01:25:28.320
unmeasurable and there is a value in that we need to be able to sense it in ourselves to

01:25:28.320 --> 01:25:35.360
really, really value this creation, I guess. And therefore, we can't have animals for sale

01:25:35.360 --> 01:25:40.040
because it would go against this idea. It would not only make the value of the animal

01:25:40.040 --> 01:25:46.160
smaller but it would reflect back on me because that's how I would see them. But all along,

01:25:46.160 --> 01:25:50.560
which I didn't know, was that the animals was also thinking that this is exactly the

01:25:50.560 --> 01:25:57.040
place that human needs. So exactly what you say is where they are going. Because they say that

01:25:57.040 --> 01:26:01.920
humans need to practice this too. It ties in with the idea of how can we develop more compassion,

01:26:01.920 --> 01:26:07.360
because I think spending a week or two in a place like yours would definitely help to culture

01:26:07.360 --> 01:26:11.760
people's hearts and their compassion a lot more, which would have a lot of lasting value.

01:26:11.760 --> 01:26:18.400
Yes, and it does, which is so hopeful that it seems to work. I mean, you have to come by free

01:26:18.400 --> 01:26:22.640
will and you have to accept the full fact that you have to do the job yourself.

01:26:22.640 --> 01:26:27.160
You're not going to be given anything. That needs to be clear because otherwise

01:26:27.160 --> 01:26:31.360
we are waiting to be fed with wisdom and then we will come out in the other end

01:26:31.360 --> 01:26:36.640
as more wise people. We need to take it in and it's our own responsibility. The

01:26:36.640 --> 01:26:41.080
horses are there, whether we can go to where they are, that's our responsibility.

01:26:41.080 --> 01:26:45.840
We need to follow the urge. But it seems to really work. So I was creating this

01:26:45.840 --> 01:26:51.280
place for the animals and the animals seems to all along be creating it for us.

01:26:51.280 --> 01:26:56.520
Because they say that since we have developed this gap, we have this gap.

01:26:56.520 --> 01:27:01.720
I mean, I guess in the end it's a gift, but without the connection to the entirety, it's

01:27:01.720 --> 01:27:02.720
problematic.

01:27:02.720 --> 01:27:04.320
Like you say, we are teenagers.

01:27:04.320 --> 01:27:06.480
We really are.

01:27:06.480 --> 01:27:11.400
But because we then all the time interpret the world, then we believe that that's what

01:27:11.400 --> 01:27:13.400
everyone is doing to us too.

01:27:13.400 --> 01:27:17.120
if I'm creating a world based on opinions, I believe that everyone else is doing it

01:27:17.120 --> 01:27:21.500
too, whether I think it or not, which means that as a human being I probably

01:27:21.500 --> 01:27:27.040
have an underlying fear of being judged all the time to some extent, which means

01:27:27.040 --> 01:27:33.000
that I also have a protection against that and that protection is in the way

01:27:33.000 --> 01:27:37.440
in the development of compassion. That's going to be problematic. So in order to

01:27:37.440 --> 01:27:41.840
start practicing compassion I cannot feel judged. I think if we copy what

01:27:41.840 --> 01:27:46.400
might be happening on the other side is that we go to a place where we are not being judged,

01:27:46.400 --> 01:27:50.880
when we are met with full compassion and perhaps that's the only thing that can make us see

01:27:50.880 --> 01:27:57.120
ourselves fully. Then naturally that would be what we need to create here and we need

01:27:57.120 --> 01:28:04.680
a place that is safe enough for nature to create at least what we can with our resources,

01:28:04.680 --> 01:28:10.560
a natural environment where life can interact with each other. It would be different if we

01:28:10.560 --> 01:28:15.680
are cutting down the forests around, we don't own almost anything. The farm where I live is tiny,

01:28:15.680 --> 01:28:20.960
so we are renting land all over the place, so all the animals can have a place. And now we have a

01:28:20.960 --> 01:28:27.040
situation where land is being sold, it's complicated, and we're now trying to think that, okay, to make

01:28:27.040 --> 01:28:33.760
this place last, because now we are in a transition step, to make this place last, perhaps in a legal

01:28:33.760 --> 01:28:40.400
form, we need to create a foundation. Because if we create a foundation, it means that legally,

01:28:40.400 --> 01:28:46.000
the land will actually then own itself.

01:28:46.000 --> 01:28:48.760
And if the land own itself, then we are

01:28:48.760 --> 01:28:50.960
moving closer to an equal meeting

01:28:50.960 --> 01:28:52.520
between human beings and other species,

01:28:52.520 --> 01:28:55.840
and then we are one step closer to

01:28:55.840 --> 01:28:58.440
compassion. And also it has to get past me.

01:28:58.440 --> 01:29:00.720
I can't be in the middle of this, that's not

01:29:00.720 --> 01:29:03.720
the idea. Even if I started it, it

01:29:03.720 --> 01:29:07.280
shouldn't be owned by me and die with me.

01:29:07.280 --> 01:29:10.000
It needs to have its own landing and

01:29:07.280 --> 01:29:11.480
sitting in this world. We're hoping for that. So that's a project that is

01:29:11.480 --> 01:29:17.080
happening now because exactly what you say, we had a horse dying, naturally they

01:29:17.080 --> 01:29:21.160
die, they live here all their lives and they die and it's sad of course but

01:29:21.160 --> 01:29:25.160
there is also a beauty in it. And the last thing he saw before he died

01:29:25.160 --> 01:29:30.040
is similar to what you said. In the first line at the end of the field where he

01:29:30.040 --> 01:29:34.920
was standing, he saw rows of people waiting and they wanted to come in and

01:29:34.920 --> 01:29:40.200
said that when people are really longing in their hearts to experience this, you are meant

01:29:40.200 --> 01:29:45.620
to welcome them. You don't turn them away. And that is really important. And we're looking

01:29:45.620 --> 01:29:52.140
for forms for that, because this is so new. The school started in 2018. And now we're on

01:29:52.140 --> 01:29:57.900
our third class, and it's 30 students and they are chosen by the horses. So they have to send

01:29:57.900 --> 01:30:01.860
a letter in to me because I need something that is them.

01:30:01.860 --> 01:30:04.260
And then what, you read the letter to the horses?

01:30:04.260 --> 01:30:06.820
Yes, I read the letter to the horses.

01:30:06.820 --> 01:30:10.340
I don't think they are at all interested in the content.

01:30:10.340 --> 01:30:12.060
It's like, I've done this, this is my name.

01:30:12.060 --> 01:30:13.980
They get an image of the person when you...

01:30:13.980 --> 01:30:15.980
They get an image of the person.

01:30:15.980 --> 01:30:20.700
And it's fascinating because they don't seem to choose the people because you are chosen

01:30:20.700 --> 01:30:23.540
and you are better than this one and you have this ability.

01:30:23.540 --> 01:30:29.020
They seem to choose them because something in that person is being seen.

01:30:29.020 --> 01:30:33.520
I remember one horse explaining that I was reading a letter and she saw a pair of hands

01:30:33.520 --> 01:30:35.820
and she said, "Who would only show the hands?

01:30:35.820 --> 01:30:36.820
That's interesting."

01:30:36.820 --> 01:30:41.480
And because that connection had happened by the curiosity of the horse, that person was

01:30:41.480 --> 01:30:43.300
then welcomed.

01:30:43.300 --> 01:30:49.260
And it seems to be that they mainly invite people because of the timing of things, not

01:30:49.260 --> 01:30:53.260
because of who you are and what you're good at, because there's never an explanation.

01:30:53.260 --> 01:30:58.380
It only seems to be that the timing is, "At this moment, our paths are crossing, so you

01:30:58.380 --> 01:31:05.260
can come. What percentage of people who apply can come? Well, for the last class we had about 200

01:31:05.260 --> 01:31:12.140
people applying all in all and there's place for 30. Wow, interesting. And I'm thinking that

01:31:12.140 --> 01:31:18.060
the longing inside of the people that cannot come all at the same time, because we need to be able

01:31:18.060 --> 01:31:24.220
to focus, we cannot commercialize this, it wouldn't work. It has to be, yes, you pay,

01:31:26.540 --> 01:31:29.980
I mean, you pay a fee because we have to pay our taxes and all that.

01:31:29.980 --> 01:31:31.900
Oh, sure. People should pay, yeah.

01:31:31.900 --> 01:31:36.140
Yeah, but the point is not that. I mean, that's what we need to do.

01:31:36.140 --> 01:31:40.540
But why we have to limit the numbers is also because of time and space.

01:31:40.540 --> 01:31:42.780
You want to have time to meet these people.

01:31:42.780 --> 01:31:45.660
What if people watch this interview and a thousand people want to come?

01:31:45.660 --> 01:31:47.900
You're going to have to limit the numbers.

01:31:47.900 --> 01:31:51.420
And after one year, the ground core, the sort of basic course,

01:31:51.420 --> 01:31:53.820
is two years and we meet on weekends.

01:31:53.820 --> 01:31:57.500
we're outside all the time because the horses are outside all the time and I think

01:31:57.500 --> 01:32:04.140
it's important that it's not too comfortable. I don't mean it as it has to be uncomfortable,

01:32:04.140 --> 01:32:09.740
but I think we need to feel things. We need to experience it with the bodies. If it's rain,

01:32:09.740 --> 01:32:15.180
we're outside and we feel the rain. Sometimes we're cold, sometimes we don't understand anything,

01:32:15.180 --> 01:32:21.020
sometimes we're frustrated. That's important. The fascinating thing when you take a group in like

01:32:21.020 --> 01:32:26.020
this is that normally in school, you know, you learn things and you prove to your teacher

01:32:26.020 --> 01:32:32.420
that you've learned it. Here, you seem to get exercises from the mainly the horses and

01:32:32.420 --> 01:32:37.300
you're not actually supposed to be able to succeed all the time because if you succeed

01:32:37.300 --> 01:32:43.380
all the time, you're actually creating an identity around being a successful student.

01:32:43.380 --> 01:32:48.420
So in some exercises, you get a glimpse. In some exercises, you see what is between you

01:32:48.420 --> 01:32:52.920
and the meeting point with the other one. In some exercises nothing happens at all because

01:32:52.920 --> 01:32:58.800
your presence is holding the space for perhaps that one student that is getting a glimpse

01:32:58.800 --> 01:33:05.540
in that exercise. So you cannot be a successful student in this concept, but after one year

01:33:05.540 --> 01:33:12.000
you get a mentor horse. After that first year, the horses have observed you and sometime

01:33:12.000 --> 01:33:16.420
during that year you would have, perhaps only for a second, but some connection would have

01:33:16.420 --> 01:33:22.420
happened that makes one horse feel particularly responsible for you. And at the end of the year,

01:33:22.420 --> 01:33:26.660
that horse will explain something to me about that person that I write down as a letter.

01:33:26.660 --> 01:33:31.780
So in the winter, because of the weather, it's cold in the winter. So the course is from April

01:33:31.780 --> 01:33:39.140
to November. In December, it would be the lack of comfort would be too obvious, right? And then

01:33:39.140 --> 01:33:44.100
the horse that becomes your mentor will give you personal exercises until we meet again in the

01:33:44.100 --> 01:33:50.640
the spring. And to me, that is so private that when I write it down, I feel that I shouldn't

01:33:50.640 --> 01:33:56.300
read it. So I never read it twice. I just try to get it down and put it away because

01:33:56.300 --> 01:34:01.060
it's not for me. So it's two years like this, they meet eight times and they have these

01:34:01.060 --> 01:34:05.940
studies in the winter. And then after the first two years, lots of the students didn't

01:34:05.940 --> 01:34:10.540
want to finish. They wanted to come back. And I thought, well, there is nothing saying

01:34:10.540 --> 01:34:17.980
that they can't come back. So we have some students doing follow-up years. So some did five years.

01:34:17.980 --> 01:34:23.300
So every second year we start a new class. Because to go that deep and to be able to

01:34:23.300 --> 01:34:28.380
write these letters, if it's a hundred, I wouldn't be able to do it. But I think this

01:34:28.380 --> 01:34:32.940
has to happen in the physical. But there are things that we can share online. So we're

01:34:32.940 --> 01:34:38.740
creating a platform for stories that pandemic taught us a lot about how we can share things

01:34:38.740 --> 01:34:43.640
when we can't meet and some of that is valuable, right? So we can have a platform where people

01:34:43.640 --> 01:34:47.820
can take part of what we're doing here and start practicing at home, even if you have

01:34:47.820 --> 01:34:50.100
to wait for your place to come into one of the courses.

01:34:50.100 --> 01:34:54.100
Let me ask you a couple of questions here. With all you're saying, it sounds like there's

01:34:54.100 --> 01:34:59.500
a lot you can teach people, but can you actually help them to acquire the kind of ability that

01:34:59.500 --> 01:35:00.500
you have?

01:35:00.500 --> 01:35:01.500
Yes.

01:35:01.500 --> 01:35:07.220
What percentage, again, talking percentages, are able to achieve some degree of animal communication

01:35:07.220 --> 01:35:08.220
the way you do it?

01:35:08.220 --> 01:35:12.220
I would say all of them to some extent, but very individually.

01:35:12.220 --> 01:35:18.500
It's like for me it will happen a lot through vision, because I would see images and I would

01:35:18.500 --> 01:35:22.180
get feelings and instant experiences.

01:35:22.180 --> 01:35:25.900
Before I did this, I ran away from home when I was very young because it was complicated

01:35:25.900 --> 01:35:29.460
and I earned my living painting portraits.

01:35:29.460 --> 01:35:35.020
For me, it would naturally come as images, because that's the fastest way probably for

01:35:35.020 --> 01:35:37.180
my brain to perceive something.

01:35:37.180 --> 01:35:41.260
wouldn't necessarily be an image for

01:35:41.260 --> 01:35:44.380
someone else but it can still be a very

01:35:44.380 --> 01:35:46.420
deep experience of the other one and I

01:35:46.420 --> 01:35:48.780
would say that that has happened to all

01:35:48.780 --> 01:35:51.420
of the students in different ways, in

01:35:51.420 --> 01:35:54.260
different degrees, but the really hopeful

01:35:54.260 --> 01:35:56.140
thing is it's possible. It's not

01:35:56.140 --> 01:35:59.700
something that you teach as a method but

01:35:59.700 --> 01:36:02.700
by placing a person in an environment that

01:36:02.700 --> 01:36:05.580
is non-judgmental and somehow safe

01:36:02.700 --> 01:36:10.700
and we practice a compassionate being, a compassionate interaction, like in lots of exercises,

01:36:10.700 --> 01:36:16.700
someone will be with the horse, I mean for example we can have a person sitting on a horse

01:36:16.700 --> 01:36:20.700
with closed eyes and no bridle and saddle, you're completely vulnerable.

01:36:20.700 --> 01:36:26.700
And we have another person just holding that space that can foresee if something happens,

01:36:26.700 --> 01:36:28.700
that is protecting this in a way.

01:36:28.700 --> 01:36:33.740
We need to practice holding that space for each other. The one holding the space

01:36:33.740 --> 01:36:39.040
is as important as the one doing the exercise for that to take place. So it

01:36:39.040 --> 01:36:43.840
seems to be more about the space that we are upholding. It's not really a

01:36:43.840 --> 01:36:50.420
technique but it's re-entering that space. Seems to be what does it. The

01:36:50.420 --> 01:36:55.400
exercises are probably just designed differently to fit different people from

01:36:55.400 --> 01:37:02.920
different angles. That's why there is a variety. The real exercise seems to be around one question

01:37:02.920 --> 01:37:11.060
or two, which is from me to the horse, "Who are you? Who are you? Or who are you?" The

01:37:11.060 --> 01:37:17.240
longing to meet the world. And then the question, "Who am I?" Which we will never be able to

01:37:17.240 --> 01:37:20.720
answer, but it doesn't make it less relevant.

01:37:20.720 --> 01:37:28.580
I've seen a number of TV shows about prisoners who are allowed to work with horses or dogs

01:37:28.580 --> 01:37:33.480
or even sometimes, I think there was one where they were able to have pet cats.

01:37:33.480 --> 01:37:37.880
And it was tremendously, it was a wonderful service for the animals, but it was extremely

01:37:37.880 --> 01:37:40.620
rehabilitative for the prisoners.

01:37:40.620 --> 01:37:42.800
So we were talking earlier about criminal rehabilitation.

01:37:42.800 --> 01:37:50.040
It would be cool if your thing could be systematized in a way to be introduced more widely in that

01:37:50.040 --> 01:37:57.160
I think it could eventually because if it starts to, I mean it obviously lives its own life

01:37:57.160 --> 01:38:01.920
and when you start practice this thing starts to happen.

01:38:01.920 --> 01:38:05.920
And it's like you said, this is where we are now, we have this course and we have a children's

01:38:05.920 --> 01:38:08.040
group that came today.

01:38:08.040 --> 01:38:12.680
They were practicing lying down on horses that are loose in a herd so that their spine is

01:38:12.680 --> 01:38:17.720
following the horse spine until they are just floating in the sort of similar experience

01:38:17.720 --> 01:38:18.720
of bodies.

01:38:18.720 --> 01:38:25.200
to go through the body really helps. And then we have a horse that started a hoof school

01:38:25.200 --> 01:38:30.840
in how to trim the horse's feet. When we take away the relationship between the horse and

01:38:30.840 --> 01:38:36.760
the ground, we have to replace that somehow, and we replace this technologically. But what

01:38:36.760 --> 01:38:42.280
if we go in a compassionate way and experience this relationship between the hoof and the

01:38:42.280 --> 01:38:47.040
ground and become part of that? And that's for farriers because it's so detailed, so

01:38:47.040 --> 01:38:51.280
need to have some basic knowledge before. A farrier is somebody who trims horses. Yes,

01:38:51.280 --> 01:38:56.960
exactly. And now, just recently started a course with a horse that is helping to plan the grazing,

01:38:56.960 --> 01:39:00.960
in which fields should we move the horses in which time of the year?

01:39:00.960 --> 01:39:06.960
Because we lock them in, right? We lock them in pens and we have harvested the grass, we have

01:39:06.960 --> 01:39:13.200
disturbed all the functions underneath the ground. So it's a hard job for her, but she's teaching us

01:39:13.200 --> 01:39:18.480
about it. And we get to follow her, we're

01:39:18.480 --> 01:39:21.120
going to meet her six times this year,

01:39:21.120 --> 01:39:22.640
and follow her connection with the ground

01:39:22.640 --> 01:39:24.640
and how a grazing animal,

01:39:24.640 --> 01:39:26.800
it's not only how they eat but also how

01:39:26.800 --> 01:39:28.480
they move and how they trample on the

01:39:28.480 --> 01:39:29.920
ground that makes a difference for the

01:39:29.920 --> 01:39:33.280
grass and how it grows.

01:39:33.280 --> 01:39:35.360
And I guess it's like what we find

01:39:35.360 --> 01:39:37.760
here and what kind of concepts,

01:39:37.760 --> 01:39:39.520
if people would come from far away it

01:39:39.520 --> 01:39:41.360
would be complicated with a weekend,

01:39:39.520 --> 01:39:44.320
maybe then we would need, like you say, like a retreat for a week that is more intense, for example.

01:39:44.320 --> 01:39:49.920
I don't think there is a limited form. The form will develop as we try it out,

01:39:49.920 --> 01:39:53.440
because we're not a university. We don't have a form that we need to,

01:39:53.440 --> 01:39:58.640
and there's no structure. We are creating the structure. We are outside. Our classroom is

01:39:58.640 --> 01:40:03.520
outside. I wouldn't be surprised if after this interview, people want to come from all over

01:40:03.520 --> 01:40:12.640
the world. And if they do, if anyone does, yes, you're welcome. I did that with cows for a few

01:40:12.640 --> 01:40:18.160
months. And what you say about shoveling manure is actually also interesting because in order to

01:40:18.160 --> 01:40:23.920
receive something, we must give something. And we make that trade and as we know, we need to pay

01:40:23.920 --> 01:40:29.040
bills. You also get paid for what you do and that's one system that we have. But then we have the

01:40:29.040 --> 01:40:34.480
system of giving without thinking about what we will get back. And that part needs to be there too.

01:40:34.480 --> 01:40:41.440
We run this as a welfare, as a sanctuary, because the animals have no obligation to contribute with

01:40:41.440 --> 01:40:46.480
anything and we don't sell them so we don't get any money from them. And that's a sanctuary. You

01:40:46.480 --> 01:40:52.480
pay for the teachings because that's how we can pay the bills and do it all legally correct. And

01:40:52.480 --> 01:40:57.680
we have students that also do what you say, they come and they shovel manure. We also work with the

01:40:57.680 --> 01:41:02.880
a theatre school, a physical theatre school, and they did a project where they come and

01:41:02.880 --> 01:41:08.000
clean the barn for a couple of hours and after that they get an exercise from any one of the species

01:41:08.000 --> 01:41:13.280
in how they can find different aspects of their bodies that can be used in their artwork.

01:41:13.280 --> 01:41:18.560
And that's one of the most fascinating things I've ever done because it's something about

01:41:18.560 --> 01:41:24.720
giving of your time and your effort and it will help in what you will gain back. You can't

01:41:24.720 --> 01:41:30.320
do it in order to gain something, but there is something in that giving. And one of the horses

01:41:30.320 --> 01:41:35.760
that was really teaching us this, he also said that it's part of your fee and what you take,

01:41:35.760 --> 01:41:41.440
it has to be a gift. So I will always give a bit more than what people pay for,

01:41:41.440 --> 01:41:49.440
and people will always give a bit more as well, but it could be in any kind of way. You can bring

01:41:49.440 --> 01:41:55.440
coffee, you can help cleaning, but we need to feel that none of us are, it's not just a trade,

01:41:55.440 --> 01:41:59.840
we're also meeting because we really want to meet as equals, as people.

01:41:59.840 --> 01:42:02.720
Let me ask you that question about reincarnation.

01:42:02.720 --> 01:42:07.840
Let's just fit in reincarnation so we sort that out too.

01:42:07.840 --> 01:42:14.160
Someone named Petra Miskoff in London asked, "Do animals say there is reincarnation,

01:42:14.160 --> 01:42:17.760
that they are reborn?" And before you answer her question, I just want to add one.

01:42:17.760 --> 01:42:23.920
Have you ever met animals or horses who had been human beings and are now horses, or have you met

01:42:23.920 --> 01:42:29.520
human beings who had been horses and are now human beings? Well, whether things can be proven or not

01:42:29.520 --> 01:42:36.320
has to be. Let's say a horse tells you, "Yeah, I was John Shmoe. I lived in London in my last life,

01:42:36.320 --> 01:42:41.440
and now I'm here as a horse." There is a difference. There is a difference. When we talk about

01:42:41.440 --> 01:42:47.440
reincarnation with humans, we seem to always have some sort of scale where you become a human in

01:42:47.440 --> 01:42:51.600
in the end and then you stay a human. It's like if you've been a human, you don't go back.

01:42:51.600 --> 01:42:57.920
Animals, I would say, talk a lot about reincarnation, but there are two different

01:42:57.920 --> 01:43:03.920
things there that I don't hear as much from humans, and that's complex. How private is

01:43:03.920 --> 01:43:11.200
reincarnation? If we follow the road to this forgetfulness where everything is merging into one

01:43:11.200 --> 01:43:14.000
and out of that we are reborn.

01:43:14.000 --> 01:43:18.300
How can I know for sure that it's just my soul and nothing else?

01:43:18.300 --> 01:43:23.000
Well, the Buddhists seem to have this idea that you just scoop a bucket into the ocean of karma

01:43:23.000 --> 01:43:27.300
and come out and there's a new life for you, which may be a conglomerate of many people's karma.

01:43:27.300 --> 01:43:29.700
As I understand it, I might be misrepresenting that.

01:43:29.700 --> 01:43:34.300
And the Hindus have more of an idea, it seems, that our individual jiva or soul

01:43:34.300 --> 01:43:40.600
remains discreet and moves from life to life and evolves as it goes along and accumulates experience.

01:43:40.600 --> 01:43:45.320
And perhaps both of those can be true without contradicting each other.

01:43:45.320 --> 01:43:50.920
If you're not too linear, I had this just beautiful, it needs to just be put in here.

01:43:50.920 --> 01:43:56.600
Sometimes in the classes, we can ask questions to a particular horse that is interested in a subject.

01:43:56.600 --> 01:44:03.080
And there was this questioning with an elderly mare. And somehow the questions led up to her

01:44:03.080 --> 01:44:09.320
speaking about prayer. And you think that is purely human. But it seems like praying is a

01:44:09.320 --> 01:44:15.080
natural state for pretty much everyone on this planet. And she described prayer, and this will

01:44:15.080 --> 01:44:20.440
lead to reincarnation. She conveyed an image of something that looked like what the soul was made

01:44:20.440 --> 01:44:27.400
of, like the matter of souls. And on that big sort of light mat, I would describe it like that,

01:44:27.400 --> 01:44:33.400
like a carpet sort of thing, there were little circular, like oval things that were drawn.

01:44:34.040 --> 01:44:39.800
And she said, "They're only drawn there. These are the individual souls. They are not cut out.

01:44:39.800 --> 01:44:44.440
They are just drawn. So you can see them. This is the individual, but it's not taken out. It's

01:44:44.440 --> 01:44:51.080
not separate. So we are individual, but we are never disconnected." And to her, the meaning of

01:44:51.080 --> 01:44:54.840
pray would be- - Sure, just like waves. They're individual waves, but they're not disconnected

01:44:54.840 --> 01:44:59.960
from the- - Yeah, exactly. And for her, the meaning of praying would be to remind yourself about that.

01:44:59.960 --> 01:45:04.680
You wouldn't pray to get something, but the prayer would lead you back to the memory

01:45:04.680 --> 01:45:07.960
that we are not disconnected and that would bring a sense of hope.

01:45:07.960 --> 01:45:08.520
That's nice.

01:45:08.520 --> 01:45:11.480
It's really beautiful and it makes a lot of sense, I think.

01:45:11.480 --> 01:45:17.800
So, the scooping thing, like Fanny, a horse that seemed to relate to reincarnation all the time,

01:45:17.800 --> 01:45:24.680
and she helps people by seeing those stories, say that we cannot really say which story belongs to

01:45:24.680 --> 01:45:33.400
whom. But we can say that some stories have affected you and really affected in who you are now more

01:45:33.400 --> 01:45:40.200
than other stories. But to whom the story belonged is perhaps less relevant. It affects you and that's

01:45:40.200 --> 01:45:45.560
what counts. And she also had one woman saying, "What if life is too difficult? What do you do

01:45:45.560 --> 01:45:50.200
when life is too difficult?" And she said, "Well, if your life is overwhelming and it's too difficult,

01:45:50.200 --> 01:45:55.880
then others will come and help you. Meaning that what she basically said is like, your karma is

01:45:55.880 --> 01:46:02.040
not only yours. You might be helping someone else in their karma. Someone else might be helping you.

01:46:02.040 --> 01:46:07.320
Karma is not personal. It's something we do together. And I like that thought as well.

01:46:07.320 --> 01:46:13.000
But the same horse also say that when you leave this life, you go out through,

01:46:13.000 --> 01:46:19.000
she sent an image of a little, like a little gate, like a little door. You go out there.

01:46:19.000 --> 01:46:24.680
when you enter again you go in through the same door. Because you go in through the same door

01:46:24.680 --> 01:46:32.040
you actually also bring on your old clothes. So even if you're everyone and everyone is in you,

01:46:32.040 --> 01:46:38.200
you also follow a personal story. And if you go through all of this in a couple of minutes,

01:46:38.200 --> 01:46:44.600
perhaps both are true. We are being scooped up as a mixture but there is also a personal story.

01:46:45.240 --> 01:46:48.520
but in the personal story we are never

01:46:48.520 --> 01:46:50.840
disconnected and we're

01:46:50.840 --> 01:46:52.600
continuously helping each other. So that's

01:46:52.600 --> 01:46:54.600
one thing that comes from animals and

01:46:54.600 --> 01:46:56.760
the other thing is that they seem to never

01:46:56.760 --> 01:46:58.680
really make any scales of anything.

01:46:58.680 --> 01:47:00.280
It's like whether you become a human being,

01:47:00.280 --> 01:47:03.160
a stone, a tree,

01:47:03.160 --> 01:47:05.000
water, I mean you can be an element,

01:47:05.000 --> 01:47:07.240
it doesn't really seem to matter. It's

01:47:07.240 --> 01:47:09.640
like you will enter this life

01:47:09.640 --> 01:47:10.600
and get exactly the experience that you

01:47:10.600 --> 01:47:13.480
precisely

01:47:10.600 --> 01:47:17.560
need because life seemed to really wish us the best. It's like there is something kind behind all this.

01:47:17.560 --> 01:47:22.120
We get exactly what is best for us, we just don't understand it. And this circular thing,

01:47:22.120 --> 01:47:28.440
it seems to just be circles moving in all directions rather than a ladder and eventually

01:47:28.440 --> 01:47:33.000
you end up with God. It's like you are never disconnected from God. So you just keep going

01:47:33.000 --> 01:47:41.000
in and out. So then, what you do and what you give in this life is much more important than who you

01:47:41.000 --> 01:47:47.160
are. They all seem to relate to reincarnation, but not as a ladder to reach a goal.

01:47:47.160 --> 01:47:53.560
Interesting. I guess what you give is the proof of who you are, you know, it's the

01:47:53.560 --> 01:47:58.200
walking of the talk, so to speak. Here's a cute little bit from your book.

01:47:58.760 --> 01:48:02.880
Among all the animals I have been communicating with, there's one question that they repeatedly

01:48:02.880 --> 01:48:03.880
continue to ask.

01:48:03.880 --> 01:48:07.920
How is it that you people have forgotten where you once came from?

01:48:07.920 --> 01:48:11.320
Yes, that's the entire story, right?

01:48:11.320 --> 01:48:12.320
Yeah, it is.

01:48:12.320 --> 01:48:15.600
So, there's a lot of interesting stuff in your book that we haven't had a chance to

01:48:15.600 --> 01:48:17.000
get to.

01:48:17.000 --> 01:48:21.920
You had some amazing experiences in New Zealand, which were far out, I mean, interesting stuff.

01:48:21.920 --> 01:48:25.240
You have had some amazing experiences in Jordan.

01:48:25.240 --> 01:48:26.240
Oh, definitely.

01:48:26.240 --> 01:48:30.780
And there's this fellow Muhammad who somehow or other you actually just sort of

01:48:30.780 --> 01:48:38.200
Merge consciousnesses with at some point and and he was treating horses through you and you were treating horses through him

01:48:38.200 --> 01:48:40.120
And that was all very interesting

01:48:40.120 --> 01:48:43.780
And then there's the whole time travel thing where you keep flashing back to this

01:48:43.780 --> 01:48:50.840
time where there's a green and and a young girl and all this stuff and we don't really have time to talk about all this

01:48:50.840 --> 01:48:55.480
Stuff right now you once saw the king of Iraq as an apparition not the current king of Iraq

01:48:55.480 --> 01:49:00.520
with some ancient king of Iraq who actually showed up in the stable with you and was conversing

01:49:00.520 --> 01:49:01.520
with you.

01:49:01.520 --> 01:49:05.840
And then I thought I'd really lost it until I went back to see my, I can say that I work

01:49:05.840 --> 01:49:08.120
for her, but she's also my great friend.

01:49:08.120 --> 01:49:09.880
So I don't know what to call it.

01:49:09.880 --> 01:49:12.720
She is my friend, but everything seems to be normal to her.

01:49:12.720 --> 01:49:15.720
So when I come back from the stables and she's related to this person.

01:49:15.720 --> 01:49:18.000
She was the daughter of King Hussein or something.

01:49:18.000 --> 01:49:19.560
Yes, exactly.

01:49:19.560 --> 01:49:23.120
And I said, I saw this person at the stables and he told me these things and now I've really

01:49:23.120 --> 01:49:27.040
lost it and I don't know what to do and she's like, "What did he look like?" And I described him and

01:49:27.040 --> 01:49:32.160
his essence and the way he looks and she brings out a photo and she says, "Is it him?" Yes. Well,

01:49:32.160 --> 01:49:37.440
that's normal, you know, because he used to be king in Iraq and some of the horses here are

01:49:37.440 --> 01:49:43.360
relatives to the horses he had. And to her, this linear, that we come and go and that we keep

01:49:43.360 --> 01:49:49.600
connecting beyond time, it's everyday life for her. It's very interesting. Yeah, it's everyday

01:49:49.600 --> 01:49:55.920
life for you too. Yes, I struggle a bit more than her, that's the only thing. So here's a good quote

01:49:55.920 --> 01:50:00.560
that maybe we should wrap it up on. You can comment on it if you want. I can talk to you for another

01:50:00.560 --> 01:50:04.240
two hours about all these things, but maybe we'll do another one one of these days and cover some

01:50:04.240 --> 01:50:09.440
things we didn't. We can, I mean you're always welcome here anyway. Thanks, yeah it'd be fun to,

01:50:09.440 --> 01:50:14.800
I mean it's a lot easier to do a Zoom call than it is to fly to Sweden. We can start like that.

01:50:14.800 --> 01:50:19.200
It's fun to do that too, but here's a little something that an end note which you can comment,

01:50:19.200 --> 01:50:23.120
Oh, I mean, here's another thing you said in the book that I thought would be interesting to talk

01:50:23.120 --> 01:50:27.440
about that we didn't get to, which is that there were situations in your life where trees nearby

01:50:27.440 --> 01:50:34.000
were being clear-cut and you ended up having a visceral reaction to it in terms of your kidneys

01:50:34.000 --> 01:50:39.840
failing and your heart having problems and stuff like that, like you were in training with the soul

01:50:39.840 --> 01:50:44.640
of the trees that were being killed. Alright, so here's this point that could perhaps be a

01:50:44.640 --> 01:50:49.320
a wrap-up point. I'll try to pronounce this Arabic word but alhamdulillah.

01:50:49.320 --> 01:50:54.720
Yeah, alhamdulillah. Whatever happens it must be for the best of everything. I may

01:50:54.720 --> 01:50:59.360
not be able to see it at the time but I have faith in the way things are. Yeah.

01:50:59.360 --> 01:51:05.720
That's a good thing to live by. Yeah, it is. I try to do that. Whatever God does is for

01:51:05.720 --> 01:51:10.040
the best is another way of putting it. Yeah. So is your place in pretty good

01:51:10.040 --> 01:51:15.320
shape? Are you in dire circumstances now of losing the thing because you don't have enough money?

01:51:15.320 --> 01:51:21.480
What's going on there? Both. We are losing a farm that has been the center point of the

01:51:21.480 --> 01:51:25.400
educational part because it's the best grazing paddock for the horses. It's huge.

01:51:25.400 --> 01:51:29.800
And that's up for sale and they want us to buy it and we don't have enough money.

01:51:29.800 --> 01:51:34.680
Announcement people, if you would like to contribute. Yeah, that would be very helpful

01:51:34.680 --> 01:51:38.840
because... On your website I'm sure there's something about how to contribute. Yeah, there

01:51:38.840 --> 01:51:43.080
is. And if it was only that, it would be easier, but then we're losing another huge paddock because

01:51:43.080 --> 01:51:48.200
of a solar cell park. We're losing three more paddocks because they're being replanted with

01:51:48.200 --> 01:51:53.480
trees instead of kept as grazing land. So when we lost all these, you come to the question,

01:51:53.480 --> 01:51:58.760
well, is this a sign that we should just stop what we're doing? But there are no other signs of that.

01:51:58.760 --> 01:52:03.960
The horses are not saying that. So what if this is that we need to reach out to the world and say

01:52:03.960 --> 01:52:11.000
that we need help. Is this important enough for enough people? Then the horses always said that

01:52:11.000 --> 01:52:18.760
this place is being kept and held by many small good deeds. So if we can collect more small good

01:52:18.760 --> 01:52:23.800
deeds, that will then be turned into this foundation. A foundation can only be built

01:52:23.800 --> 01:52:29.080
around something that is physical and exists. So the idea is, if we can get enough money to

01:52:29.080 --> 01:52:32.680
buy this particular farm that is for sale, we will turn that into a foundation.

01:52:32.680 --> 01:52:36.360
So that farm would meet your needs in terms of space and all that?

01:52:36.360 --> 01:52:40.520
Yes, it would. And then we would turn it into a foundation and it means that we can receive

01:52:40.520 --> 01:52:46.040
and welcome more people because we will have a more solid ground, literally. If we can't

01:52:46.040 --> 01:52:52.040
achieve that, then we will have to trust that God wishes as well. We're not going to give up.

01:52:52.040 --> 01:52:59.480
Then we will continue to collect things until we can buy something else. Because I truly believe

01:52:59.480 --> 01:53:06.280
in this foundation to create this non-judgmental space that will continue past us that live now.

01:53:06.280 --> 01:53:11.640
We have information about it in the website and anyone that contributes anything, it goes

01:53:11.640 --> 01:53:15.960
only to that. There is no administration fees, there's nothing. It definitely will

01:53:15.960 --> 01:53:21.640
either be this farm or something else that will show itself to be the one.

01:53:21.640 --> 01:53:26.600
Do you know the story of the old man and the boy walking on the beach and seeing a lot of starfish?

01:53:26.600 --> 01:53:27.720
Do you know that story?

01:53:27.720 --> 01:53:28.520
No.

01:53:28.520 --> 01:53:32.840
this relates to what you're talking about here. So an old man and a boy were walking along the beach

01:53:32.840 --> 01:53:37.560
and the tide had gone out and there were just thousands of starfish as far as I could see that

01:53:37.560 --> 01:53:43.400
were lying on the shore and drying up in the sun. And you know they're all going to die if they

01:53:43.400 --> 01:53:47.160
didn't get back in the water but they couldn't get back in the water. So as they walked along

01:53:47.160 --> 01:53:51.160
every few steps the old man would bend down pick up a starfish and throw it in the water.

01:53:51.160 --> 01:53:55.400
And after a while the boy said to him, "Why bother? What difference can it possibly make?

01:53:55.400 --> 01:53:59.800
There are thousands of them. What difference can you make? So when the boy said that, the man reaches

01:53:59.800 --> 01:54:03.880
down, picks up another one, throws it in the water and says, "Made a difference to that one."

01:54:03.880 --> 01:54:05.240
- Yeah, exactly. Exactly.

01:54:05.240 --> 01:54:08.760
- So you're Peter Place. I mean, people might think, "Okay, there are millions of animals

01:54:08.760 --> 01:54:13.320
in the world. There are 22 million pigs in Iowa. There are all this stuff. What can your little

01:54:13.320 --> 01:54:19.960
farm with 150 animals do?" But it not only makes a difference to the animals that you actually treat

01:54:19.960 --> 01:54:27.240
or help, but something like that is like a beacon or a transmitter that creates a quality

01:54:27.240 --> 01:54:35.880
in collective consciousness that is sorely needed in the world and that may in fact be multiplied

01:54:35.880 --> 01:54:40.680
if your transmitter is bright enough or strong enough or whatever, such that more things like

01:54:40.680 --> 01:54:46.120
that will crop up and collective consciousness will change and, you know, will help to bring

01:54:46.120 --> 01:54:50.920
about the transformation that we were talking about earlier to what society actually needs to be,

01:54:50.920 --> 01:54:53.880
if it's to survive and flourish.

01:54:53.880 --> 01:54:58.920
- Exactly. If we get a chance to talk again, that's what the Jordanian horses are really

01:54:58.920 --> 01:55:03.960
speaking about. The connection between the transformation of the individual and how that

01:55:03.960 --> 01:55:09.240
affects society and how that cannot be taken apart from each other. So I guess it counts.

01:55:09.240 --> 01:55:13.720
It's like every glimpse counts, every intention counts.

01:55:13.720 --> 01:55:21.720
Yeah, they say that there are yogis in the Himalayas who just live in a cave, but they radiate an influence without which humanity would be much worse off.

01:55:21.720 --> 01:55:23.720
I truly believe that.

01:55:23.720 --> 01:55:35.720
Yeah, something like what you're doing I see in a similar way. It creates an influence that is sorely needed and that really helps the world in a much bigger way than people might realize is possible.

01:55:35.720 --> 01:55:40.720
A couple more questions came in, might as well ask them, they're kind of goofy and a little

01:55:40.720 --> 01:55:44.080
out of context with this grand conclusion we just reached.

01:55:44.080 --> 01:55:48.400
Here's one from a fellow named Srinath in Dallas, Texas.

01:55:48.400 --> 01:55:52.720
I'm sure your answer to this is yes, can you converse with cows as you can with horses?

01:55:52.720 --> 01:55:53.720
Yes.

01:55:53.720 --> 01:55:54.720
Yes.

01:55:54.720 --> 01:55:57.200
They probably speak a different language, but you can converse.

01:55:57.200 --> 01:56:01.080
It's like everything that is alive, if everything that is alive knows that it's alive, there

01:56:01.080 --> 01:56:02.200
is always a meeting point.

01:56:02.200 --> 01:56:08.200
Yeah, I mean you have several stories in the book of communicating with trees and those trees had a lot of interesting things to say.

01:56:08.200 --> 01:56:11.700
Here's one from Sriram Ganesh in Chennai, India.

01:56:11.700 --> 01:56:17.700
When you say not all eggs are meant to be chickens, certain eggs are meant to be eaten, who decides it, the egg or the eater?

01:56:17.700 --> 01:56:23.700
Will not this concept that things are meant to be eaten justify anything?

01:56:23.700 --> 01:56:25.700
That is a very good question.

01:56:25.700 --> 01:56:29.700
Does the pig decide he wants to be food instead of live his life as a pig?

01:56:29.700 --> 01:56:34.700
We need more time, that's for sure. Yeah, it's right. I wouldn't say...

01:56:34.700 --> 01:56:36.700
When you use the phrase "meant to be", it's complicated.

01:56:36.700 --> 01:56:41.700
I think what the chicken meant is that not every egg will be a chicken.

01:56:41.700 --> 01:56:43.700
Some eggs will be food.

01:56:43.700 --> 01:56:51.700
Who decides how much is free will and how much of our actions is guarded because of what we choose

01:56:51.700 --> 01:56:53.700
and how much can we choose?

01:56:53.700 --> 01:57:00.560
And how much of our actions is because we are unconsciously acting on the greater good?

01:57:00.560 --> 01:57:02.060
We wouldn't know that, would we?

01:57:02.060 --> 01:57:03.060
No.

01:57:03.060 --> 01:57:04.060
Okay.

01:57:04.060 --> 01:57:08.780
And how much does our awakening change one of the horses that really made the basis of

01:57:08.780 --> 01:57:09.780
this school?

01:57:09.780 --> 01:57:12.300
It's like, so where are we going with this then?

01:57:12.300 --> 01:57:17.740
Well, one of the things is freedom, not freedom to do whatever we want, but freedom to truly

01:57:17.740 --> 01:57:21.940
choose because we are not so tied to our identifications.

01:57:21.940 --> 01:57:24.980
So we are not just pulled by forces.

01:57:24.980 --> 01:57:27.620
Have more discernment or discrimination.

01:57:27.620 --> 01:57:32.420
And how much will that choice change the entirety and the ability for others to do that?

01:57:32.420 --> 01:57:35.380
I mean, all of that is in that question about the egg, right?

01:57:35.380 --> 01:57:37.220
Yeah, it's interesting.

01:57:37.220 --> 01:57:38.660
Alrighty, this has been great, Emily.

01:57:38.660 --> 01:57:40.180
I really enjoyed this.

01:57:40.180 --> 01:57:43.660
I liked your book, and I like talking to you even more than your book.

01:57:43.660 --> 01:57:45.500
So thanks so much.

01:57:45.500 --> 01:57:49.260
Thanks for what you're doing, and thanks to those who've been listening or watching.

01:57:49.260 --> 01:57:53.800
I'll obviously have a page up on Backgap with a little bit more about Emily and links to

01:57:53.800 --> 01:57:58.560
her books and links to her website and so on, so that you can go there.

01:57:58.560 --> 01:58:02.280
There's a lot of interesting things to read on the website.

01:58:02.280 --> 01:58:05.560
You know, hopefully people listening to this will contribute to you financially, some may

01:58:05.560 --> 01:58:11.160
want to come for courses, and I just really hope it helps to boost everything you're doing,

01:58:11.160 --> 01:58:14.640
because I think what you're doing is really important and beautiful.

01:58:14.640 --> 01:58:20.240
hopefully just the inspiration that might come or just challenging the thoughts to something

01:58:20.240 --> 01:58:22.080
that wasn't before.

01:58:22.080 --> 01:58:23.080
And we're constantly changing.

01:58:23.080 --> 01:58:24.580
I mean, the website is changing.

01:58:24.580 --> 01:58:26.320
So much is happening now.

01:58:26.320 --> 01:58:30.320
And forms of meeting and teaching, that part feels very hopeful.

01:58:30.320 --> 01:58:33.420
That's why I believe that we're not meant to shut down.

01:58:33.420 --> 01:58:36.520
We're meant to find the next level of ground.

01:58:36.520 --> 01:58:39.920
Just also in this case, it's the ground literally.

01:58:39.920 --> 01:58:46.320
Yeah, I was reminded again of my teacher who was Maharishi Mahesh Yogi and very early in

01:58:46.320 --> 01:58:51.720
his mission he was sitting in some redwood forest in California with a small group of

01:58:51.720 --> 01:58:57.480
people and he was the only teacher at that point of Transcendental Meditation and he

01:58:57.480 --> 01:59:01.320
was talking about these big plans of getting everybody in the world to meditate or lots

01:59:01.320 --> 01:59:04.360
of people and someone said, "Well, how in the world can you do that?

01:59:04.360 --> 01:59:05.360
You're just one man."

01:59:05.360 --> 01:59:07.400
He said, "I'll replicate myself."

01:59:07.400 --> 01:59:14.400
So I hope what you're doing can actually result in people establishing things similar to yours.

01:59:14.400 --> 01:59:15.400
Yes, yes.

01:59:15.400 --> 01:59:16.400
All over the world.

01:59:16.400 --> 01:59:17.400
And that is happening.

01:59:17.400 --> 01:59:18.400
It starts to happen, actually.

01:59:18.400 --> 01:59:20.520
It is hopeful.

01:59:20.520 --> 01:59:22.880
Lots of work to do, but it's also hopeful.

01:59:22.880 --> 01:59:23.880
Great.

01:59:23.880 --> 01:59:25.840
Okay, well thank you.

01:59:25.840 --> 01:59:29.280
My next interview will be towards the end of the month and I'm going to be talking with

01:59:29.280 --> 01:59:33.700
two people that I've interviewed previously, but on different topics.

01:59:33.700 --> 01:59:39.460
topic of this one is going to be about what's going on with extraterrestrials. Are they really

01:59:39.460 --> 01:59:42.900
visiting us? And we're not going to spend too much on that. We're going to kind of jump to

01:59:42.900 --> 01:59:47.060
the conclusion that they are, but then we're going to get into a why. Does it have some

01:59:47.060 --> 01:59:51.220
kind of spiritual significance? I think it's going to be an interesting conversation for me,

01:59:51.220 --> 01:59:54.980
at least. So that's why I'm doing it. But anyway, I hope you'll join us for that. And there's an

01:59:54.980 --> 02:00:00.340
upcoming interviews page on batgap.com where you can see what we've got scheduled coming up. All

02:00:00.340 --> 02:00:01.340
Alright, thanks Emily.

02:00:01.340 --> 02:00:02.340
Thank you.

02:00:02.340 --> 02:00:03.340
We'll be in touch.

02:00:03.340 --> 02:00:05.340
Thanks to those who've been listening or watching.

02:00:05.340 --> 02:00:06.340
We'll see you around.

02:00:06.340 --> 02:00:07.340
Bye bye.

02:00:07.340 --> 02:00:07.340
Bye.